Paty
Magnetofiend
Posts: 687
Registered: 8/9/02
Location: Belton, SC 29627
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Mood: MAD, SAD AND DISGUSTED
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MAGNETO Testament
::magneto
As you all are probably aware, Marvel is, even as we type, finally dealing with Magneto's backstory... definatively.
Joe Quesada, the ED in Chief, has publically announced on his blog "My Cup O'Joe" that while SOME issues of Marvel Knights are out of canon and
continuity , ie: basically alternate universes or what ifs, that MAGNETO Testament IS, indeed, IN CANON AND CONTINUITY.
He is saying that what Claremont showed us of the background of Magneto is a true background and backstory and it is showing us the makings of all
the conflicting emotions and issues that make Magneto such a monumental, brilliant and interesting character. And this was all due to CHRIS
CLAREMONT!!! The X Men writer emeritus! The one who created the X Empire that lesser writers have been playing in, trying to change and tear down for
their own self glorification or their hidden agendas.
As you know... I am very opinionated in my defense of Chris, whom I know personally and love dearly, as did Dave, of course.
I am appalled at the treatment he has had at Marvel... from the Hardass years until the very present! He has been routinely shoved aside, had
characters and even series peremporily yanked from him for NO good reason... in fact, even flying in the face of reason when as the writer of
Uncanny, he had the series yanked when he had taken it from eleventh place to ninth and thence to seventh place in the ratings. Having been in the
industry myself, and having understood the economics of it and the rules of it's survival in a time when other forms of entertainment beckon to the
young, I can tell you that when a book isRISING in the ratings... towards number one ...you DO NOT change the writer or the artist team FOR ANY
REASON...except that they want to do other things... a reason I KNOW for a fact that didn't exist on either that book or the Excalibur book which
Chris was using to definately establish his Magneto as the real one... after the debacle caused by morrison with Planet X. He was trying to clean up
a mess. He was actually doing that, establishing new characters...interesting characters which people were liking and following... getting his fan
base back. Certain elements at Marvel couldn't stand that and moved against him to strike him where it would hurt the most... his devotion to
Magneto, his literary masterpiece... and that it surely IS!
Now, I am sure you are wondering why I started a TESTAMENT thread with the avove. And this is why. Chris did a monumental thing when he gave
Magneto... a nothing character until then, used mainly as a foil for any superhero who needed a mindless villain to fight when the writer was up
against a deadline and couldn't come up with something better...a backstory that was carefully researched, not only as to historical reality, but as
to Magneto's own published appearances from his inception in XMen #1 To the date of Chris's decision to make him more than just a one dimensional
character.
He chose dramatic themes dear to his own heart and viable within a real timeline. Back when Chris started this transformation, the horrors of the
Holocaust were still fresh and there were not as many who denied it ever happened... basically because it DID happen and was a powerful catylist for
Magneto's actions.
With the TESTAMENT series... and I just read chapter three...of five... We see, as my friend Rivka, has said for years ...the "boy who will become
the man". We see his love of family, his meeting and falling in love with Magda, the things that happened in Germany during the late 30s and early
40s...the story of his family's flight and subsequent doom...a doom that Claremont gave us in minescule doses of nightmares, flashbacks and moments
of memory... many times. In the savage land... in the submarine with the skeletons of the crew...under the torture of Zaladane...many times
throuhghout the years. This series is validating everything Claremont showed us of Magneto's history that over ten years of bad writers and editors
with agendas... some of them blatantly anti semetic...have tried to destroy.
THANK YOU, JOE QUESADA!!!
this story was too important not to tell and to cement in stone so solidly that people with purile agendas could never refute it. Oh, they may
try... but if they do, it will be a blatant and unmistakable sign of who and WHAT they are.
Joe told me about this series while it was still under wraps... being planned, researched...with, by the way, help from Rivka, who sent them volumes
of her own immaculate research not only into Holocaust history, but into Magneto's canon and how it fitted into historical data... because, you know
something? Chris actually DID his research when he first started this character development!!!
Rivka did the research long years ago in her fight to get Hardass to get it right....and also for her own reasons, since she IS a serious Holocaust
scholar and researcher. She, over the years, has told me things I never knew of the Holocaust...of the customs and social actions and situations of
that time...and all of the things she told me over years of discussing with her how what Charemont wrote fitted into KNOWN and documented historical
fact could actually apply. and now, all that research is part of that TESTAMENT series, validating the backstory of Magneto, his ethnic heritage,
the times and their horrors, and how it fits in whith how it affected the young boy and what relationship it has to the saner, more driven man
Magneto is today.
Now, we take time out for the development of his power and how it would drive him mad, backing up in him because of the genetic blockage which Moira
McTaggart removed to allow him to use his powers without them overwhelming his sanity.
That's another story.
But Claremont built that story on CANON too... cuz we never saw hat happened to the infant Magneto after he was de-aged... until he appeared again
as a grown man, wielding his powers, younger and saner than he had been before. All neatly tied up with canon, continuity and the foundation laid
down by other writers which came before.
Marvel's rep was always built on it's care of continuity and the development of characters based on it's own canon. Today's writers simply don't
want to know the characters and their thirty or forty years of REAL TIME canon... which in MARVEL UNIVERSE TIME is approximately only about a tenth
of REAL time, even though the backgrounds and technology change to keep a touch of that real time in the visuals. Fans get so caught up in this
year or that year not realizing that only three or four years MARVEL time have passed during the thirty or forty years REAL time. Storm, introduced
in seventy five as a mature adult...possibly mid twenties...is not now fifty years old!!! Just as Batman, introduced as an adult, possibly thirty
years old or so... in the thirties is not now eighty!!!...no... he is still thirty. Storm is still twenty something or possibly early thirty
something. With superdoops, actual timelines make little difference if you get right down to it... except with people who say that real time IS
Marvel Universe time... which it is NOT.
So, the TESTAMENT storyline has real bearings on the Magneto of today...even though the historical data it is tied to actuallyhappened sixty or
seventy years ago. the time of history doesn't matter if we learn from it... the FACTS of history DO matter if we are not to stupidly repeat the
lesson.
I got an email the other day from a friend...not rRvka, whom I must send it along to... that had in it pictures taken by soldiers in the forties, who
came into the horrors of the death camps ... and under the direction of General Dwight D. Eisenhower, who said "take as many pictures of these horrors
as you can... because sometime in the future people will try to deny this ever happened!" the pictures were brutal... horrible. But Ike was right,
too! Neo Nazism is on the rise...so this series is particularly relevent. and it shows the horrors, the reality of man's inhumanity to man in detail
that is not so graphic to be as gory as it really was... but to put it into a context as seen through the eyes of a youngster who suffered it and who
grew up to become the powerful mutant Magneto.
It is apparent that Joe Quesada wanted Marvel to get this right. .. and so far, he has done that not only with the history but with fitting our Mags
into it. Kudoes to the Editor, Mr Simons, to Greg Pak, the writer, to Mr. Giandomenico, the artist, to the colorist and all the other people who
have made this series so historically accurate both real time and marvel mythos. You are doing a masterful and important thing here, people!
There are those, including some at Marvel, with agendas themselves, who don't want this to be in canon so they can brush it away... brush away one
of the most brilliant literary creations in the histry of comic book literature...brush away seventeen years of coherent and interesting storywriting
that was Chris Claremont's contribution to the bulging coffers of marvel...as well as the comic literature he enhanced and in some cases, even
developed. they post voluminously in their own blogs that it is NOT canon and they will make it so when Quesada goes away as EiC...
But this is an historic series. As important in it's own way as the Marvel series that first dared to print without the comics code stamp simply
because teen drug addiction and abuse was too important a REALITY to be ignored!!!
The brouhaha about Magneto's backstory... an important piece of literary brilliance...had to be quashed. The nay sayers who didn't want Magnus to be
Jewish or have suffered the Holocaust horrors... who want him to be a rat bastard who hates his familyand everyone else except himself can no longer
stand. With this affirmation of his young history, we can see what formed him, what fires tempered him... what drove him to cling to mutantking as
his "new family" and try to protect them from the horrors he knew humans to be capable of. It gives basis to his reasoning that the only safety is
in being powerful and bargaining with humanity for you existance through power is an accurate position to take...rather than hoping for acceptance
through service and a friendly facade... which never works... ask the European Jews... if you can find any...
So I guess the purpose of this thread is to discuss this monumental series... the first three issues of which are on the stands now. Rivka can,
from her voluminous research, tell us the particulars of the scenes we saw in each of these books if we are interested to know them, I am sure.
That this is a ssstark and dramatic series is an understatement. That this is an important series both in REAL history AND in MARVEL UNIVERSE
history is the understatement of the century!!!
If you can love horror and pathos and suffering of someone you love... in this case, Magneto as a boy... I do love this series. As a comment on
humanity, it is horrifying, electrfying and documentarily true and needs to be said over and over... or we simply will sweep it under the rug of
time and say it didn't happen just to soothe our souls... to tell ourselves the lie that humans couldn't be this bad.
Well... yes we can. Magneto is right! It is happening all over the world every day...today! and not just in other countries, either. the Native
Americans are victims in our own country of planned and enacted genocide. HERE ! in America... this very year, month, week, day!!! It is ongoing
bigotry against anyone who is not like YOU! Obama faced bigotry against blacks and still became president elect. Kennedy faced bigotry against
Catholics and became president. We can change... we can let go of bigotry and hatred... but we all aren't there yet...we've come a long way...
especially in America... but it's still a long haul for Homo Sapiens.
So there you have my take on this monumental and historic series... what's yours? You like? you don't like? why? why not?
Just waiting for the next two issues...
Paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER
!!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , CEO at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
10 th floor
417 Fifth Ave.
New York, NY 10016
:magneto
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Rivka
Lubber
Posts: 36
Registered: 9/10/03
Member Is Offline
Mood: Magneto-centric
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| Quote: | Originally posted by Paty
THANK YOU, JOE QUESADA!!! |
Amen! Thank you Joe Quesada, and thank you Warren Simons and Greg Pak and Carmine Di Giandomenico, and Matt Hollingsworth, and Assistant Editor
Arbona, and Marko Djurdjevic for those remarkable, extraordinary covers! The covers need to be reproduced as posters.
| Quote: | So, the TESTAMENT storyline has real bearings on the Magneto of today...even though the historical data it is tied to actually happened sixty or
seventy years ago. the time of history doesn't matter if we learn from it... the FACTS of history DO matter if we are not to stupidly repeat the
lesson.
I got an email the other day from a friend...not Rvka, whom I must send it along to... that had in it pictures taken by soldiers in the forties, who
came into the horrors of the death camps ... and under the direction of General Dwight D. Eisenhower, who said "take as many pictures of these horrors
as you can... because sometime in the future people will try to deny this ever happened!" the pictures were brutal... horrible. But Ike was right,
too! Neo Nazism is on the rise...so this series is particularly relevent. and it shows the horrors, the reality of man's inhumanity to man in detail
that is not so graphic to be as gory as it really was... but to put it into a context as seen through the eyes of a youngster who suffered it and who
grew up to become the powerful mutant Magneto.
It is apparent that Joe Quesada wanted Marvel to get this right. .. and so far, he has done that not only with the history but with fitting our Mags
into it. Kudoes to the Editor, Mr Simons, to Greg Pak, the writer, to Mr. Giandomenico, the artist, to the colorist and all the other people who
have made this series so historically accurate both real time and marvel mythos. You are doing a masterful and important thing here, people!
|
I agree. Well said.
| Quote: | But this is an historic series. As important in it's own way as the Marvel series that first dared to print without the comics code stamp simply
because teen drug addiction and abuse was too important a REALITY to be ignored!!!
The brouhaha about Magneto's backstory... an important piece of literary brilliance...had to be quashed. The nay sayers who didn't want Magnus to be
Jewish or have suffered the Holocaust horrors... who want him to be a rat bastard who hates his family and everyone else except himself can no longer
stand. With this affirmation of his young history, we can see what formed him, what fires tempered him... what drove him to cling to mutant king as
his "new family" and try to protect them from the horrors he knew humans to be capable of. It gives basis to his reasoning that the only safety is
in being powerful and bargaining with humanity for you existence through power is an accurate position to take...rather than hoping for acceptance
through service and a friendly facade... which never works... ask the European Jews... if you can find any... |
This series epitomizes what makes Marvel unique, and what Marvel characters represent. This series is a jewel in Marvel's crown. Significant as a
piece of literature, important in the history of publishing, yet continuing to uphold and enhance canon.
How many times have we seen writers and editors who think the only way to "make history" is to destroy characters and destroy canon and shock the
readers! The Magneto Testament series builds on existing canon, augments it, adds to the psychological depth of the character by building on what has
come before. At the same time, the series is historically accurate, illuminating a period in history and showing the experience of the Holocaust in a
whole new way, helping people understand what happened, what people endured. At the same time, it is artistically worthy -- a work of art and
literature. The symbolic and subtle aspects of this art will take an entire other post to talk about. The way the symbolism and the colors and the
style serve the real-world history and the psychology of Magneto and the canon all at the same time.
There are few works of graphic serial fiction that have ever so successfully accomplished this weaving together of all strands. Comparing this series
to MAUS or PERSOPOLIS, for example, may not do any of the books justice, since MAGNETO TESTAMENT has to additionally weave in and preserve the
existing canon and history of the character Magneto that dates back many, many years.
| Quote: | So I guess the purpose of this thread is to discuss this monumental series... the first three issues of which are on the stands now. Rivka can,
from her voluminous research, tell us the particulars of the scenes we saw in each of these books if we are interested to know them, I am sure.
That this is a stark and dramatic series is an understatement. That this is an important series both in REAL history AND in MARVEL UNIVERSE
history is the understatement of the century!!! |
Thank you so much for starting this thread, Paty. I have so much to say! I want to organize my thoughts and get the references right. I'll be back.
| Quote: | | If you can love horror and pathos and suffering of someone you love... in this case, Magneto as a boy... I do love this series. As a comment on
humanity, it is horrifying, electrifying and documentarily true and needs to be said over and over... or we simply will sweep it under the rug of
time and say it didn't happen just to soothe our souls... to tell ourselves the lie that humans couldn't be this bad. |
It just makes me cry; those of us who love Magneto -- it hurts so much to read TESTAMENT, but it's so gratifying to also finally read the true history
of this Jewish character, and to have this story told with such artistic and historical integrity!
| Quote: | | Well... yes we can. Magneto is right! It is happening all over the world every day...today! and not just in other countries, either. the Native
Americans are victims in our own country of planned and enacted genocide. HERE ! in America... this very year, month, week, day!!! It is ongoing
bigotry against anyone who is not like YOU! Obama faced bigotry against blacks and still became president elect. Kennedy faced bigotry against
Catholics and became president. We can change... we can let go of bigotry and hatred... but we all aren't there yet...we've come a long way...
especially in America... but it's still a long haul for Homo Sapiens. |
Magneto's point of view is at least completely understandable now. I don't know if I would call him "right" or "wrong" in the context of past comic
book stories, given his choices, and the madness that has overcome him so often. He certainly seems justified in his beliefs, given what Marvel has
shown us of the hatred, lethal bigotry, and anti-mutant Holocausts in the making that exist in the Marvel Universe.
What is more important to me is that Magneto's motives, his psychology, his decisions, are now completely informed by this limited series, in a way
that has never been shown before. MAGNETO TESTAMENT is Magneto's past, present, and future. This is totally remarkable, that a limited series has been
able to so completely stay true to all elements of a fictional and real-world history! Warren Simons and Greg Pak have set the bar high, and
established a template for all Marvel editors and writers to follow.
| Quote: | | So there you have my take on this monumental and historic series... what's yours? You like? you don't like? why? why not? |
There are some people, I've noted reviewing quickly the various message boards and comic book news sites and reviews, who are unfamiliar with the
character, and/or Holocaust history, and are making some strange comments -- but out of a lack of knowledge. I urge all Magneto fans to stop pounding
on these people and kindly and respectfully explain to them the facts. Most of the negative reaction to MAGNETO TESTAMENT #3 that I've seen so far
comes almost entirely from ignorance of the character's past appearances, and/or real-world history, and they mean no harm in their comments.
It is hard to wrap ones mind around the importance and depth of this series, especially since it is unapologetically a comic book limited series. Joe
Quesada has said in the past, he's proud of the medium of comics, he gets angry when people display snootiness regarding comic books as an art form,
and he's right. MAGNETO TESTAMENT is a work of art -- collected in hardcover, the value of this series will be revealed more fully. But people who
spend most of their time among comic book fandom, become used to a certain way of thinking, younger people especially, and might be more inclined to a
less enthusiastic response.
| Quote: | Just waiting for the next two issues...
Paty
:magneto |
These two issues are going to deal with Auschwitz. It's going to be incredibly painful for readers. I only hope that Marvel lets the writer and artist
tell their story without hindrance -- some of the subjects depicted in Auschwitz, such as the gas chambers, bodies burning in the fire pits, and the
ovens, are going to be horrendous. Magneto's experiences in Auschwitz are going to be heartbreaking. And we're going to meet Magda again. (IT's going
to be especially hard to keep both the real-world history and the comic book history accurate, too.)
Juding by the cover to MAGNETO TESTAMENT #5, I think the artists and editor and writer are working on a way to depict the horrors without turning this
into a horror book. Look at that cover; the boy, covered in the ashes of the dead, the look of horror and despair on his face, as his sweat and tears
run clear from his eyes, the streams of water turning black with the ashes on his cheeks. The fires of hell, the fires of the ovens, the pits piled
with bodies, reflected in his eyes. This might be one of the most moving and profound depictions of a member of the Sonderkommando in fiction.
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PirateKurt
Bilge Rat
Posts: 60
Registered: 27/8/03
Location: New Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: :spiffy:
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Testament
I read this book, and frankly tear up a bit. The Nazi party was such a definative example of real evil. The portrayal of these ... evil mongers is
not a cariacature, it is not a superhero villian howling and making dramatic faces. As such it feels totally accurate, factual, believable.
Read this book.
But be ready. It's not a fuzzy read so far. But it is a necessary read. A very necessary read. I really suggest having Indianna Jones 1 or 3
ready to get over reading this book. As to help you see some Nazi's getting beaten up. I had to after reading the book.
Joe Quesada kicks Butte
But getting back into this, The writers and researchers have woven a tale that is as educational about the Nazi's rise to power and attrocity, as
much as it is the BG of Magneto. I suggested it to the History teacher at my school as a supplementary read for her kids.
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BH123
Bilge Rat
Posts: 62
Registered: 4/6/04
Location: Queens NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
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I wasn't sure if I was going to pick this up or not, since I had no idea if it would be any good. But after reading Paty's comments, yep, I'll either
buy the issues, or the inevitable TPB.
I always wished Marvel would just come right out and say Magneto was Jewish. Some people argued that having a Jewish character who was Hitler-esque,
who thought mutants were superior to humans, and who wished to see "nornal" humans conquered or killed, was offensive. Well, I myself am Jewish, and
I never found it offensive that the character might be Jewish.
The whole point of Chris Claremont's origin for Magneto is that in his attempts to protect muants he became exactly what he hated. Friedrich
Nietzsche was correct when he stated "Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster." That is the tragedy
of Magneto. It's also what makes him such a compelling character. And the fact that Magneto is Jewish serves to show that ALL human beings have the
capacity for evil. Tody's victim can be tomorrow's persecutor, because the desire for vengeance can consume all that is good & decent in a
person.
[Edited on 7/23/09 by BH123]
Ben Herman
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PirateKurt
Bilge Rat
Posts: 60
Registered: 27/8/03
Location: New Mexico
Member Is Offline
Mood: :spiffy:
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Define evil? What makes Magneto evil? Who has he killed? He killed a murderer on his Asteroid. He killed a submarine crew...who fired Nuclear
weapons at him. I keep hearing how 'Hitler like' magneto is but I fail to see 4 to 8 million dead people. And sadly, if Magneto /wished/ to kill
humans, it would be alarmingly simple to do so. With a fraction of his power he could open a hole in the magnetosphere of the planet, which is our
only precarious shield from solar radiation. No life can exist on earth that is exposed to it's raw power , simply, he /could/ exterminate vast
stretches of humanity if he chose. What makes the character seem this way is his admission that Humans are not the fluffy happy things they are
portrayed as, they are fearful, paranoid, and sometimes /evil/ things that will kill something it doesn't understand, and as such, they will come
after and kill mutants. Simply for being different. Which they have to the tune of millions now.
So no. He is not a Hitler like person. He admits a simple truth, Humans are at their core, Neither good nor evil, but capable of true evil, which
he has seen, in it's worse form, twice now.
[Edited on 3/12/08 by PirateKurt]
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BH123
Bilge Rat
Posts: 62
Registered: 4/6/04
Location: Queens NY
Member Is Offline
Mood: No Mood.
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There is a great article in Back Issue Magazine #35 on the character development and reformation of Magneto. Definitely worth a look for anyone with
an interest in the character. Here's a link...
http://twomorrows.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products...
Anyway, thinking about it, the fact that we all have such different, and strong, opinions, about Magneto shows just what a compelling figure he is.
Chris Claremont really did a fantastic job developing Mangento from a one-dimensional renting baddie into a compelling, tortured, complex individual,
one capable of evoking strong and varied reactions from the audience.
[Edited on 8/19/09 by BH123]
Ben Herman
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Threetoe
Lubber
Posts: 10
Registered: 19/9/09
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This is one of the most powerful, and the most real, comics I have ever read.
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