X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

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X-Men: 2nd Coming (SAY WHAAAA)

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

critiques on preview:

1) Great artwork. But Ororo is half naked and fresh from the shower/sauna/massage parlor.... why? Why is that necessary? Oh, right, fan guys and cleavage of a hot dame. Forgot how that works.

2) WTF is going on with Scott/Ororo in there. Seriously. What??

3) So Logan, Storm, Beast, .... Noriko? Is that? Or is that Armor? They get to go to Africa.... where's Colossus? Where's Angel? Where's Magneto? You're gonna LEAVE THEM for a hunch? A hunch in a continent that something not completely, but not totally unlike mutants are being born, thus abandoning your "Hope" on an island during a time of CRISIS--surrounded by panic stricken team mates and your ex mortal enemy?? For freaky births??
Not very good leadership scott. This story needs to be scrapped.
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Post by Angelique »

Oh, yeah, and how exactly is Beast back on the team?
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Post by neling4 »

I assume they are being cheerful to mask the pain of losing Kurt.

Kurt who???

Oh yeah! That dead guy we baked over the grill on "Movie Night".
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

He's not. He's in the Avengers during the "Heroic Age". I think this is a "I'm doing this for 'Kurt' and because I want to make sure you don't fuck this up anymore than you already have" type thing.

Why is Emma always written as completely tactless by everyone BUT Chris Claremont? (or Millar). Does anyone else notice she has like no offsiwtch? She just says whatever she stupidly wants to. She looks like a total moron, her fan base must have shrunk drastically since she hooked up with Scott. Poor Emma fans, it's not that she's a bad character. She's just given so little dimension by so many writers....

Her fan base could probably commiserate with ours. :LOL
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Post by Elfdame »

Ult_Sm86 wrote: Poor Emma fans, it's not that she's a bad character.
Like Roger Rabbit, I can't resist: "I'm not bad; I'm just drawn that way."
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Post by Cyntosis »

Elfdame wrote:
Ult_Sm86 wrote: Poor Emma fans, it's not that she's a bad character.
Like Roger Rabbit, I can't resist: "I'm not bad; I'm just drawn that way."
In Emma's case it's more like "written". Most artists do a solid job.

And I was honestly under the impression that Astonishing wasn't 616 anymore. Might just continue to pretend so instead of trying to puzzle it all together.
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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 »

Elfdame wrote:
Ult_Sm86 wrote: Poor Emma fans, it's not that she's a bad character.
Like Roger Rabbit, I can't resist: "I'm not bad; I'm just drawn that way."
I watched that movie last night! :LOL It rocks.
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Post by kladyelf »

OK that was Astonishing X-men which continuity-wise is different from Uncanny, read: all over the flipping place!

and if i may add my two cents about the art? its not so bad inside but I would like to repeat my initial reaction to the art thusly:

"oh good grief! look at the size of Emma/Ororo's backside/hips!" *points and laughs* Bwahahahahaha!
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Post by Wahnsinn »

Yeah, Exogenesis likely takes place before Second Coming. Astonishing is constantly behind in continuity. It's best not to worry about when those stories take place.

The art on Emma cracks me up, too. She must be about 4'3" and has some serious child-birthing hips. :LOL
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Post by neling4 »

Yeah, that's the Astonishing preview. I know it's off-topic, but Ult_Sm86 said he wanted something to poke fun at, and that looked promising.

I'll try to find some Second Coming stuff to poke fun at.
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Post by Angelique »

You know what I'd love to see? A Linkara review of Second Coming!
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Post by neling4 »

Here's a CBR review of last week's funeral issue:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... ew&id=2207

It seems we loved Uncanny #524. Mr. Fraction speaks:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=26181






[Edited on 11/5/10 by neling4]
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Saint Kurt wrote: The truth is, about a year and a half ago I completely lost track of what the X-Men were up to because the characters seemed so hollow and wooden I just didn't care about them anymore.
That's just Fraction's writing style. Some of the other books are better, not that I've been reading those regularly either.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

neling4 wrote:Here's a CBR review of last week's funeral issue:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... ew&id=2207

It seems we loved Uncanny #524. Mr. Fraction speaks:

http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=26181
I enjoyed that interview drastically more than I thought I would. I mean that.

I still stand by the fact that as a writer, he's a bit of a hack. I don't think he researched his characters well enough when the editors board told him "The axe needs to come down on SOMEONE" and he and Yost probably exchanged some terrified glances 'cause really, who do you kill that is going to upset and keep readers at the same time?(SCOTT)

I mean, yes, I'm not happy that Kurt died. Yes, I think it's a huge disillusion to the purpose of the X-Men to take away their truest member and most faithful fighter. But at the same time, as a writer, to get the value of a shock death(SCOTT), it needs to be someone everyone will either miss, or begin to miss later(SCOTT/ANGEL/BOBBY).
No, random would be...uh...Diamond Lil. Or Karma. Or Fin Fang Foom.
HA! :LOL

I understand better the reason for Bobby doing the funeral though I never had a problem with it in the first place. However I use Fraction's very own words to back up my argument from the other thread, that Kurt comes with baggage. I mean, they didn't research Catholic rites for a funeral, and Fraction went with a writers' instinct instead. Mistake for Catholic fans, but not a mistake for just regular X-Book fans. All the same, it shows that no one really respects Kurt's devout Catholic lifestyle, and yeah it's lazy writing, but when you got a cast the size of the X-Men (diminished or not it's still a sizable group), Kurt is a pretty serious bump in the road when you are trying to meet a deadline and you don't know the difference between whatever and whatever.

And to think of it, Bobby is a pretty grounded guy, and inarguably a person who as a writer you need to look to in order to fill in the "reliable goof-ball" void that is now missing with Kurt dead.

Also, Fraction's perspective on the story seems to be that he thinks it's going in a great direction. Somehow, I doubt Yost or the others feel that way, but they're not the lucky-ducks who get to write "Uncanny X-Men" are they? : Fraction seems to be on a very High-Horse, and I some how feel this move to San Francisco with Blade and Spidey is going to knock him right the hell off of it.
And we find out what the last page of "Second Coming" means.
Well that's not very helpful, what does that mean? I wonder if that will be a Kurt-related final scene? :P

I will wrap up my assessment by saying I am going to try to avoid saying that the writers thought "it would make the most amount of sense to take out Kurt", or anything like it, because Fraction actually, genuinely, won me over--and I can't believe I'm saying this 'cause I hate his love for turning Scott into a chauvinistic prick and his lack of creativity in writing-- when he said:
I don't know that it made "sense." I don't know that tragic deaths make sense. I think that's maybe part of why they're tragic. I think that's why they affect us and move us and touch us and...I mean, it wasn't meant to make sense - it was meant to be awful and tragic.
That is completely true. We all were perplexed, angry, distraught, and entirely stunned that they would even kill Kurt, let alone how they did it! While we weren't surprised by it, just jolted that Marvel would've committed to it and not even TRIED to throw us off.
But, in terms of good writing.... It doesn't make sense. And I guess that's what makes it a "good death". :(
Or at lest not yet it makes sense. Maybe some good character development will show up during the grieving process of his teammates? I doubt it, and I certainly won't be following up on it being the only reason for me to read X-Books is dead and I won't pick it back up until they bring him back, but I wouldn't be surprised if Fraction pulls Scott's pants down and shows him what real humility is when he realizes Kurt was the only one left who really embodied Xavier's message.

And I think Xavier will be the one to spank Scott (god that sounds wrong) for his misdeeds by the end of this arc too. Fraction clearly is leading up to a big Return of the X, who will not be happy that his last faithful student is now dead for Scott's generalissimo style of leadership.


[Edited on 12/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by Angelique »

I don't like that assumption that Catholic fans are somehow not "regular X-fans." And all they needed to make the funeral make a bit more sense and seem more genuinely respectful was just to show that a priest was officiating, maybe even in just one panel. It. Really. Isn't. That. Difficult. Even if they did botch it (not that I think even Fraction could mess that up), I'd have at least appreciated the modicum of effort.

And when it comes to certain matters, writers should rely on knowledge more than instinct. If you're writing something you don't know, either learn about it or don't write it at all. That was the first thing I was taught in creative writing. High school level, at that.

I also feel that diluting any character's religion does a huge disservice to one of the ongoing messages of the X-books, that we aren't, can't be, and shouldn't be all the same.

Meanwhile, Jainism will be getting a spotlight in an upcoming plot involving Indra. So I really don't think the reason for offing Kurt is because it's too difficult to research his religion.

As for the interview, I'm somewhat glad for Fraction's sake that he has his questions pre-screened, but I think the opening sentences reflect just how out-of-touch Marvel is with the fans.
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Post by Wahnsinn »

Given what they're going through, it would have been quite difficult to get a priest and prepare him for officiating Kurt's funeral in less than 24 hours. If it had been Kitty who kicked the bucket, I wouldn't have expected they would be able to pull in a rabbi to put on anything remotely resembling a proper Jewish funeral. They did the best they could in that short amount of time, and a Methodist who was a friend of the deceased was what they had on hand. Now, if they had stuck Kurt's body in the morgue …
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Ult_Sm86 wrote: Also, Fraction's perspective on the story seems to be that he thinks it's going in a great direction. Somehow, I doubt Yost or the others feel that way, but they're not the lucky-ducks who get to write "Uncanny X-Men" are they? : Fraction seems to be on a very High-Horse, and I some how feel this move to San Francisco with Blade and Spidey is going to knock him right the hell off of it.
Oh, wishful thinking. I remember when I used to do that.

Fraction, like so many writers before him though I'm mostly thinking of Austen here, is not capable of comprehending the lack of depth in his writing. If he were, his characters wouldn't come off as "hollow and wooden". He thinks he's brilliant, and at some aspects of writing he probably is. I have no examples though because he's lacking in the character development/motivation/interaction/you know real world stuff that makes it believable even though yes it is a comic book, which is the only thing that makes fiction worth my time. So I don't read his stuff.

But if he hasn't responded to criticism before (and he shouldn't - stay classy, Matt) what makes you think he's going to fall off his horse now? His formula works for him...
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Post by Elfdame »

The Drastic Spastic wrote: I have no examples though because he's lacking in the character development/motivation/interaction/you know real world stuff that makes it believable even though yes it is a comic book, which is the only thing that makes fiction worth my time.
Hitting the nail on the head. BINGO! This isn't just about the one arc, but anybody, even dopes like me who write fanfic and original fic. I constantly agonize over "COULD this really happen, given the parameters of the fantasy world in which my characters live?"

One of the best summaris in the entire thread, IMO. Thanks for stating it so clearly.
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Post by Wahnsinn »

Y'know, I've heard Fraction's work on Iron Man (whichever title it is) has been quite good. Anyone I've seen comment on it, including people who can't stand his UXM, has been enjoying it. Maybe he's decent with single characters but not so good with an ensemble cast? Whatever it is, it's odd. I want him to be good on UXM, fragnabbit!
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Post by neling4 »

Change that to: I want him to write more about Nightcrawler and less about Scotty and Emma.

[Edited on 13/5/10 by neling4]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I don't like that assumption that Catholic fans are somehow not "regular X-fans."
The funny thing is, I sort of figured you would respond like that. I didn't know how else to word it so I will try now.

I don't mean catholic fans are irregular, like they are result of a poorly cooked panini resulting in irregular bowels, I mean to say, the average comic fan is not Catholic. That's just ... common sense. So to try to appeal to just that audience all the time is a lot more difficult and can get tiresome.
But if he hasn't responded to criticism before (and he shouldn't - stay classy, Matt) what makes you think he's going to fall off his horse now? His formula works for him...
You're absolutely correct.... except Blade and Spider-Man were never in that Formula before. Why change a formula that already "works", being you're saying that it does.

Wahnsinn: I've heard the very same, but I have not been able to find it. I'm assuming it's "The Invincible Iron Man" but it could've been Tony Stark or even Stark Enterprises. I don't know, I don't really care enough to go looking for it, but I certainly wouldn't turn it down if it came to me.
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Post by Angelique »

[rquote=33699659&tid=13011&author=Wahnsinn]Given what they're going through, it would have been quite difficult to get a priest and prepare him for officiating Kurt's funeral in less than 24 hours. If it had been Kitty who kicked the bucket, I wouldn't have expected they would be able to pull in a rabbi to put on anything remotely resembling a proper Jewish funeral. They did the best they could in that short amount of time, and a Methodist who was a friend of the deceased was what they had on hand. Now, if they had stuck Kurt's body in the morgue …[/rquote]

Which is what should have happened. And if they had a funeral for Kitty and Magneto were on hand (as well as Bobby, who actually is Jewish too), I would have expected a couple of prayer shawls, yarmulkes, and an attempt at Mourner's Kaddish. It doesn't take that much effort to show an attempt at a funeral appropriate for a character's religion. The point is that absolutely no effort was put into givine Kurt an appropriate funeral. A lame admission that this is not what Kurt would have wanted is no substitute for saying, "Hey, we should hold off for a bit until the crisis is over and we can get a priest- and figure out some Coconut Grove rites for Ariel, too, while we're at it."
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Post by Wahnsinn »

While Bobby may be Yisrael--using Jewish in the ethnic context confuzzles my brains--through his mother, he's Methodist in practice. He mentioned that at the front end of the eulogy.

If they had any sense, they would be storing all their dead in the morgue until the crisis is over. Afterward, they could have one big multi-denominational funeral for all of them! :P
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Post by Angelique »

And of course it begs these two questions: When did Bobby go from not practicing any religion to suddenly Methodist, and when did Bobby give a rat's rear about Nightcrawler?

I feel he was shoehorned in just to give Iceman a token appearance.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Good grief, if a Jewish character had died and people wore prayer shawls and yarmulkes for the funeral, I would have cringed so hard. There is trying, and then there is trying too hard and coming off as insincere.
Angelique wrote:And of course it begs these two questions: When did Bobby go from not practicing any religion to suddenly Methodist, and when did Bobby give a rat's rear about Nightcrawler?
Lots of people only think about ("practice") religion when someone dies. Or gets married.
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