Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

True, but Jubalee seems to be very upset about being a non Mutie, and I find it odd that non of the other Ex-X-Men find it a problem.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Again... I'm sure they do, the stories just aren't out yet.
That's what a lot of this post "Second Coming" is going to be.

And it's not that Jubilee is just "very upset", she's legitimately missing something important in her life. She, unlike the other pointless miss-mesh of characters, has huge history with the X-Men and is a fan-product brought on by the love of the Animated Series. Her fans, her creators, and the character herself, want to see her active on the team again.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:How upset will you be then, if they don't use a D.E.M.?
I won't be. It'll make me happy if they come to an actual resolution without one.

Jubilee will be returning to the X-titles soon, and it appears she will be turned into a vampire. I'm having a really hard time getting excited about the vampire event thing. Event fatigue. :P
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

You wouldn't be upset if they didn't resolve this? You said yourself, they put themselves "in a corner" and have made it so they "Have to use a D.E.M." so why is it so bad that they do as good a "D.E.M." as possible?

Which I still don't think is totally what's going on here.


Also:

This brings an interesting new element to the equation
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Trigger »

I have two theories about this.

One, neither of those is really Hope, but brand new mutants that have just had their X-genes kicked in. Which would mean that the mutant race is recovering already.

Or two, that Uncanny is going to turn from being the Scott and Emma show, to being the Scott, Emma, and Hope show. I'm really hoping for the former.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I actually think you're correct, I believe the poster on that forum is mistaken. The first theory is probably most likely.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Ult_Sm86 wrote:You wouldn't be upset if they didn't resolve this? You said yourself, they put themselves "in a corner" and have made it so they "Have to use a D.E.M." so why is it so bad that they do as good a "D.E.M." as possible?

Which I still don't think is totally what's going on here.
If there is no resolution (in SC or otherwise), I'll be a bit perturbed but not terribly surprised. Honestly, I've never had the expectation that SC is going to reverse Decimation. Would I like for it to do that? Yes, but I'd rather not get my hopes up.

If they must use a DEM, I would like for it to be the best one possible. I simply wish they hadn't written themselves into a corner that requires the use of a DEM.

I'm not really sure what to make of that. It could be a reflection of some group being granted powers they never had, or maybe Hope's true power will turn out to be mimicry of appearance and powers. One image looks like a combination of Apocalypse and Mercury, and the other looks like Cipher with a different power set. Power mimicry would explain how she cleared Rogue and took on Scott's eyes for a moment. From what I've heard, she has also mimicked Cable and Bishop.

Of course, there's still the Phoenix possibility lingering. It still hasn't been revealed where all the pieces went. Unless it was a red herring, something could easily come of that. :shrug
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

Maybe instead of almost destroying the Mutant Gene, Wanda actually surpressed it for a while.

Perhaps some of the Children born as mutants before the decimation are getting their powers back.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Nice guess, Blob! I like that!

I hope that's a possibility!
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

Now, I could go for that possibility, Blob. It'd be a retcon, but it'd be a sensible retcon. Alas, I have a hard time imagining Quesada allowing that to happen.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

You guys know Quesada may be editor in chief, but he's not in charge of the X-Books, right?

I mean, he's IN CHARGE of who's IN CHARGE of the X-Books, but he's not actually the guy who cooks up everything. It's a very round-table set of decision making type scenarios that brings about these plots. Quesada does have (like Brevoort over Spider-Man/Avengers) some form of last say, but he doesn't just sit around and stamp things "naughty" or "nice". It's a little more complicated than that.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

It may be more complicated, but he's the one who wanted to "put the genie back in the bottle." Those were his words. Until evidence is provided to the contrary, it's not unreasonable to conclude that dramatically lowering the mutant population was Quesada's idea. How it was to be done may have been left to others, but the result came from him.

As Editor in Chief and Chief Creative Officer, Quesada has the last say on what happens in every book. No big change goes through without him signing off on it.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

Well, just incase, I asked Tom (anonymously) on Formspring what his thoughts were on "Decimation" and how an event like that is concocted/plays out.

Here's his response.

Me:
Tom, when a decision for a plot like "Decimation" is made, is this executive decision, writer-proposed, something a team of writers cooked up, or fan induced? Or possibly a mixture of all? some accuse that "Retcon" of being a single writers selfishness.
Tom:
It all depends on the story you're talking about, but nothing that large happens unilaterally. In the case of Decimation, it was cooked up between Brian, Joe Q, the editorial staff and the assorted creators who attend out summits.
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Post by Wahnsinn »

From the mouth of the man himself (all emphasis mine):
[quote]Kiel Phegley: Smokey17 asked after the same scene from a different angle: "Awhile back you said you had two genies to put back in the bottle. One was the marriage and didn't specify what the second one was. Can you give us a little hint on what the second genie is?"

Joe Quesada: Boy, it’s a good thing I say these things on the internet, over and over and over again, because I wouldn’t want to be misquoted. [laughs] Hey there, Smokey17, what I’ve said in the past was that there were three genies that I wanted to get back in the bottle.

* Cut down the number of mutants so that they became special again. See “House of M.”
* Make the Marvel Universe as unpredictable a place as it was in the early 1960s. See “Civil War.”
* Bring Peter Parker back to single status. See “One More Day.”

So, no hints necessary, so far all missions accomplished and it only took me close to ten years.

I’m so tired.[/quote]
8/14/09 on Comic Book Resources.

Alas, the 2006 (or thereabouts) interview on Newsarama where he says it is no longer available.
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Post by Blob55 »

The thing I didn't like about the 60's, was that it was all action and very little positive character interation. I found the Silver age very dull, and I still can't magange to read the Spider-Man comics past that dull era. I find it hard to read past issue 15 of the X-Men from 1965.
Quite frankly, I find it more interesting to read the letters pages and the ads than read any Silver age comic.

About the first point... cutting down the number of Mutants is fine. But to a point. I have to agree with anyone that says Joe has Written, or "Edited" himself into a corner.
I really liked how things were before the decimation because I actually liked the characters then, because there were some mutants with bizzare "powers" and were more original than what we're left with.
Also, why couldn't Joe of gotten rid of Cyclops for a while, so that there'd be even more tension, and more, or even SOME character development for some De-Powered mutants? Think about it. Cyclops could of gone to the once Mutant City and spoken to some Ex-Mutants and formed a new team.

[Edited on 7/7/10 by Blob55]
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

@Wahnsinn: So? Don't get me wrong his methods for the OMD story line were... just outrageous. But I don't see how this makes him a bad editor for trying to recapture the magic that made Marvel comics so much fun? Is there a reason other than supporting my stance for showing that quote? LOL! :LOL
Sure it was an OBJECTIVE of his to get done, but he doesn't just sit down and write the stories, a team of idea-guys/gals sit down and figure out how to get said "genies" back into said "bottles". Joe had a lot of help in that 10(almost 11) year span.

Is your stance that you don't want your Mutants to be a rare, awesome, breed? Capable of great feats but only when working together can they overcome great odds? And that you don't want your characters to be less circumstantially realistic, and just more relatable, being their superheroes and reality is sort of thrown out the window when you pick up a comic book. [See: NIGHTSCRAWLEARTH]
I'm really confused as to what you're getting at here. Are you just angry at Joe? Do you have a vendetta with him? What has he personally done to you? If you were a DC fan, maybe then I'd understand, 'cause when it comes to DC he's like a fat fluffy orange cat tied up in a bag that's been shaken about. Scratching wildly and without hesitation at whomever is before him.

But in terms of his own books? He takes the stuff pretty seriously. He's not a gun-slinger, shootin' down X-Fans 'cause he gets off on it. So I really don't get why you think Decimation is this terrible idea, constructed by a terrible man, and thus produced nothing but terrible results. Unless of course, I'm misunderstanding.

@Blob: I agree, why *couldn't* Joe have gotten rid of Cyclops?

Well, there's probably a good reason why actually.

See, Joe is in charge, but he doesn't write all the stories for Marvel. You guys are forgetting there's a whole confetti bag of writers for this company and for him to go around and throw on a short mustache and act like a fascist, telling people what and how to write, ... well... it would make him a fascist with a short mustache telling people what and how to write.

That's not the editor in chief's objective. His Objective was to bring the magic back to Marvel, over a length of time, while still telling good stories, worthy of OUR money, and worth our attention and time. He is invested in fining good writers, and good artists, to get these stories and points across. He has to sit down with editors of each book or series to make sure that the timeline is running smoothly and his ten year plan doesn't fall apart.

Reading that quote that Washnannsn..n? posted, (sorry bro, can't remember your handle. Too many N's. Or S's.) I can actually look back the last ten years and see this plan, and it's not something he just threw together two years ago to piss us all off.

Cyclops is a pain in the ass.
Cyclops is a dick.
Cyclops is the most obnoxious leader in probably all of Marvel History (especially lately).
But I don't think killing him is any type of solution.

Your plot is perfectly viable though and I think you should write a what-if, run with it, and maybe if you can pan it out and make it sound real good, maybe bring it to Marvel one day. They won't publish that, but if they like your writing they'll give you stuff to do and you can take your ideas to the top and eventually have it your way.

After all, as comic fans, we're all just a bunch of Superboy Prime's right? We all just want to see it our way. And these lazy, hack, writers and editors, they don't know shit about our characters and their history, or what they mean to us. :smirk
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Slarti »

Ult_Sm86 wrote: After all, as comic fans, we're all just a bunch of Superboy Prime's right? We all just want to see it our way. And these lazy, hack, writers and editors, they don't know shit about our characters and their history, or what they mean to us. :smirk
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Post by Blob55 »

I just think that whoever came up with the idea of Decimation should of made the story non-Canon. It could of been an interesting story where at the end all Mutants die.
However... because it's based on the main Marvel Universe, they're a bit stuck...
Think about it; some of the worlds best loved, and hated Mutants could of been De-Powered instead of having most known Mutants survive. I don't like how it just so "Happened" that Cyclops, Emma Frost, Angel, Beast, Xavier, Toad, Mystique, Colossus, Wolverine, Gambit, Storm, Nightcrawler or Rogue didn't lose their powers.

I only really liked Marvel when more and more Mutants appeared. Seeing the same 6 Muatnts in the Silver age got dull. :/

Anyway, I meant that Cyclops should of been De-Powered, not killed off.

[Edited on 7/7/10 by Blob55]
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Post by Angelique »

Problem is that, in my opinion, Joe Q's methods of putting his genies back in the bottle ranged from completely unnecessary to horrific overkill. Joe Q did not bring the magic back to Marvel, in my opinion. Otherwise, Cyclops wouldn't be Napoleon of all mutantkind armed with blind faith and an army that has sacrificed a few score IQ points and a couple of their best comrades to follow him without question. Wanda Maximoff would not have been reduced to the sexist role of "hysterical woman who's obviously to blame because she didn't pop out any babies," and Spider-man would not have flagrantly violated his beloved Aunt May's "Do Not Deal with the Devil" order.

As for his qualifications, he may have the title of CCO and Editor in Chief, but as far as I know, Joe Q never edited so much as a comma usage error in his entire career. An editor's objective is not to bring the magic back into anything, but to keep the garbage- everything from nitpicky grammar errors to flagrant gaps in continuity and research- out. But then, what do I know about editing, having known and worked with copy editors and even done a little pro editing myself?

[Edited on 7/7/2010 by Angelique]
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Blob55 »

One day Linkara is going to review all Marvel comics from House of M onwards.

I seriously don't like Joe Qrapar, because he treats all writers like Rubbish, and thinks of himself as lord of everything Marvel. He should get stepped down to a normal Editor.

So far Joe's Bottles have been nothing but hellish to a lot of Marvel fans, and all of his ideas should of been done on Non-Canon Marvel Comics first.

[Edited on 8/7/10 by Blob55]
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Ult_Sm86 »

I seriously don't like Joe Qrapar, because he treats all writers like Rubbish, and thinks of himself as lord of everything Marvel. He should get stepped down to a normal Editor.
Where is this coming from? How do you know how he treats his employees? Do tell. I am flabbergasted that you have such incredible insight to Marvel workings just from Internet Forum activity.

I also see everyone but Slarti missed my joke. Would you guys be happier if they brought back Sentry from another alternate universe, like a Sentry Prime, and just had him "retcon punch" the shit out of the last 10 years?
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

LOL!

Is someone reading our thread?

From Tom's Formspring:
Mr. B, can you help me set a record straight here? Outlandish Marvel fans seem to think Joe Q. walks around with Napoleon hat & tells everyone what to write. That seems fishy. Like there's no freedom to write new stuf. What's the real scenario here? Thanks!




It's more of a Caeser crown.

No, that's absurd. We don't hire writers to simply be typing monkeys--virtually every story that's done springs fromteh minds of our creators. And while there are certainly ideas that are generated by Joe, or by Axel and I, or by the other editors, those ideas aren't mandated--we don't force people to go along with them. Rather, they're discussed as all of the assorted ideas are, and they click with some people, who may write them.

It's easy to want to create an evil bogeyman out of somebody like Joe Q because he's both visible and very public, and it's the sort of cartoonish simplicity that makes it easy to swallow. But it comes from readers equating the people making the comics tot he characters, and looking for heroes and villains rather than talented people trying to tell the best stories that we can. But heroes and villains are easier. White hats and black hats.
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Post by Angelique »

Just because I wasn't amused didn't mean I didn't get the joke.

No retcon punch, please. Just a Tylenol for Wanda, so her fever can break and all the bad stuff that's happened to her, the Avengers, and the mutant population from Disassembled or thereabouts on is revealed to have been mostly a hallucination.

I also don't believe Joe Q is some evil little Napoleon. I just think editorial's been too caught up with production management responsibilities, publicity and marketing duties, and coming up with ideas of their own to pitch to the rest of the company at committee "summits" that they've lost sight of the main responsibility of editors- quality control.
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Anyone else think that the Decimation should be retconned?

Post by Wahnsinn »

@Ult_Sm86
1. Show me where I said JQ is a bad editor or indicated that I have something against the man as a person.
2. The quote supported what I said about the result (the lowering of the mutant population) coming from JQ while others were left to sort out the details of how to achieve that result.
3. My stance is that mutants were a rare, awesome breed before HoM. The problem was that they were not depicted as such.
4. Stop reading into my posts rather than reading my posts.
5. Wahnsinn is a German word.
6. I'm female. :P
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Post by Ult_Sm86 »

LOL Wahnsinn, I'm just showing you the aggravation that is the internet. The whole point about Joe Q. is that he gets so much slack, and I see it getting piled on doubley so in these and other threads, and I really feel it's not always justifiably deserved.

Also, if you knew there were a rare and awesome breed before HoM, can I go a little further and say they were rare and awesome breed before the sudden burst in mutant population? And they were being depicted as such. The problem for me and many many other X-Readers is once that Mutant population grew, that depiction no longer exists. No one's telling you that you're not allowed to like those stories, if you bought them, that's what Grant and other writers wanted, so congrats.

What we're saying is it slowed the story down and the most inarguable point is that there WERE too many. There were too many characters it was on the verge of geting out of hand. THAT is why it had to happen.


Even if all us Comic fans thought we knew better, I'm glad we didn't, 'cause a small tight knit group is always better than a way-too-big-expansive-group.
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