Uncanny X-force Thread

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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:33 am

Love how the last ish ended.

I tend to think he goes back to AoA, but a death would have more impact. It is just too soon after the death of our Kurt to do so. I WANT HIM BACK!
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Oct 07, 2012 3:39 am

If Darkholme dies, the only "Kurt" we have left is Kid Kurt.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Sun Oct 07, 2012 9:34 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Or they want you to be skeptical and curious to see where he'll appear.

I'm not sure enough people have showed an interest in Darkholme to bother with that one.
Ult_Sm86 wrote: but I really think where this is going is Logan/Darkholme development. I see Logan stopping him from killing Blob to set an example for Evan *and* his own son, an maybe even Darkholme stops himself after Logan holds back from killing them.

OR

Mystique stops him because seeing her son kill is too much for her, being her actual son would have never done that.


Those ideas are nice thoughts, but they hinge on Remender caring about developing Darkholme as something similar to a focus character, and I dont' think that's the case. The bulk of UXF has been about Betsy's character development, as well as Fanto's. Remender has stated this final arc will develop Wolverine and get him to the point of joining Uncanny Avengers. The only story done in the series to give shape to Darkholme was issue #24.
I really can't see Remender coming in at the end of things and writing in such a way to highlight Kurt D, as much as fans might like otherwise.
I do think you're right that Darkholme will tie in with Evan and Daken within the overall theme of nature verses nurture. That is one of the reasons Remender gave for even bringing Kurt D in.
The quote: "I liked the idea of exploring this Nightcrawler because so much of this series has been about nurture versus nature. I liked the idea of looking at someone who was inherently good, jovial, and kind, like Kurt in our world and seeing what a very different set of circumstances could have given birth to," From here: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page ... e&id=37357

I think what happens hinges on the message Remender wants to leave the series with. Wolverine has reluctantly taken Evan in, because Fanto believed the child could be shaped into something different, and even referred to it as something that would indicate that he, himself could be saved (nurture). Daken is a chip off the old block that Logan released on the world (nature) who is evil and corrupt. Logan himself is being brought to the point of trying to redeem his actions and joining with Steve Rogers. Darkholme is an example of nurture gone wrong, and it remains to be seen if he'll be left that way. Is it in Darkholme's nature to be just like Kurt Wagner, deep down, and act in a self-sacrificing manner? If it is, then it is in Evan's nature to become the Apocalypse and kill millions, therefore he should be killed as a child. Have Darkholme's circumstances nurtured him into a traitorous killing machine, hell-bent only on revenge? Then Evan's circumstances might shape him into something completely different -- even a hero.
It just depends on the message RR is going for. An ambiguous one might be a bit dodgey in a comic book platform.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Dazy » Sun Oct 07, 2012 5:03 pm

I highly doubt this is going to end with Darkholme not killing the Blob.
He ate his wife. Blob is a dead man waddling. If there were any people on his hit list who would have had the potential of getting mercy or forgiveness, it would have been his old BFF Bobby, and look how that turned out.
Besides, at this point, being that X-Force is even a thing, Logan trying to set any example by not killing would be hypocritical and...downright hilarious?
Evan isn't anywhere near Blob at the moment, there is no "example setting" for Daken, because 1) he's like 60 and 2) it's already been shown that his brainwashing is irreversible, because Xavier already tried, I believe.
As for Mystique stopping him, she already bribed him basically to make it happen, and she doesn't have any sentimental value towards Blob, so I can't see her stopping him either.

After he kills Blob, he doesn't have any reason to stay in 616. askdjasda I just want him to go back home with his family. I feel like if he stays in 616 too long he might feel like he's pulling a Bobby and betraying everyone he knows by staying in a place that's a lot more comfortable than his own world, which he has to fight to save.

Remender replied to a tweet of my friend who asked about what they were going to see in upcoming X-Force issues. I think he responded "insanity and death", or something to that effect. My prediction: Insanity--Kurt, Death--Daken, since Daken was definitely the one in the 3 hours later, being held by Wolverine.

I still don't get how someone with a healing factor can even die, but it's happened before. I really don't want Daken to die again though. I'm starting to like him.

EDIT:
Is it in Darkholme's nature to be just like Kurt Wagner, deep down, and act in a self-sacrificing manner? If it is, then it is in Evan's nature to become the Apocalypse and kill millions, therefore he should be killed as a child. Have Darkholme's circumstances nurtured him into a traitorous killing machine, hell-bent only on revenge? Then Evan's circumstances might shape him into something completely different -- even a hero.


That's a really scary thought, actually. Naturally I wanted to say Kurt would lean towards Wagner's nature, simply because I love Wagner and I'd hate to have Darkholme seen as something corrupt and terrible fully (I've been dealing with some really flaky fans and I hate their current attitude towards him after this issue.)
But the thought of Evan becoming Apocalypse seems impossible to me, and I'd rather that not happen, given that I feel it'd defeat the purpose of Evan being a character.
I usually credit Wagner's forgiving and generally light nature to his belief in God, but given that he didn't really have that up until like, the 90's or 2000's basically (as far as I know) I'm curious to see how that works. Though it's been written into his backstory, so I dunno...
I just would hate for Evan to become Apocalypse. It's too easy to try to turn the clone into the original. See: Laura, Cuckoos.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Angelique » Mon Oct 08, 2012 4:35 am

Dazy wrote:That's a really scary thought, actually. Naturally I wanted to say Kurt would lean towards Wagner's nature, simply because I love Wagner and I'd hate to have Darkholme seen as something corrupt and terrible fully (I've been dealing with some really flaky fans and I hate their current attitude towards him after this issue.)
But the thought of Evan becoming Apocalypse seems impossible to me, and I'd rather that not happen, given that I feel it'd defeat the purpose of Evan being a character.
I usually credit Wagner's forgiving and generally light nature to his belief in God, but given that he didn't really have that up until like, the 90's or 2000's basically (as far as I know) I'm curious to see how that works. Though it's been written into his backstory, so I dunno...
I just would hate for Evan to become Apocalypse. It's too easy to try to turn the clone into the original. See: Laura, Cuckoos.


Kurt has been written as fairly openly Catholic character since the '80's, but at no point was he actually written as non-Catholic except in alternate realities. At any rate, even though I am a Catholic, I was always more likely to credit Nightcrawler's forgiving and generally light nature to having seen what the alternative has to offer, and rejecting it. If that's the case, it's still possible for Darkholme to go that direction too.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Dazy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 11:36 am

Oh really? My bad.
I don't really know many alternate Kurts, aside from AoA, X-Treme, and vaguely Ultimate (which, if I recall, was a huge creep) so I can't say much in terms his inherent nature.
I just hope that it won't mean Evan will lean toward evil, just because Apocalypse did.
...
Though, that begs the question if Apoc ever did naturally lean towards evil, because wasn't he sort of brainwashed as a child in 616? I don't know for sure though, I still need to read the Rise of Apocalypse.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 3:53 pm

Well, good writing would insist that Darkholme kill Blob and not hold back his weapon, as you would suggest then. Being the proper objective is to salvage Evan and make a decent character out of him in the future. Your point is very decent, you can't change one and not the other. It says something about the team's efforts to save Evan, it makes it all worth it.

However, your disdain for Remender is sort of hard to place, Sundown. I'm not really sure I see where your criticisms are coming from, I mean he's given as much focus to Betsy and Fantomex (Unfortunately) in this run as he has given to Logan.

I'm sorry, but your point about Evan being changed is as valid as any, but if you really think they won't try to keep Darkholme longer you're kidding yourself. Of course they will. From what I see on Twitter/Formspring/recorded panels, there's zero interest in the writers and upper management to killing him off and/or bringing back Wagner. As it should be. I've said it before and I'll say it again, bringing Wagner back brings no meaning to his death and only serves to feed the rage of some of the fans (myself included).

Having a fractured image of Wagner running around Marvel, possibly working to "repair" this image and maybe making a decent character out of him? Way more of an investment for the writers.

It's too easy to try to turn the clone into the original. See: Laura, Cuckoos.


Laura is a completely separate character from her idiot brother/father. Even from Sabertooth (her... uncle?) She is, without a doubt, one of the most unique members of the Creed/Howlett family line. Her joining the Avengers and making a pointed effort to turn her life around is a testament to that. Easily one of the most underrated characters and it infuriates me that people push her titles under the rug when she doesn't wear school girl clothes covered in blood, or skimpy skin revealing outfits. When she's in jeans and a jacket, running around and giving orders to Gambit, her title gets cancelled. When she's in nearly-nipple-revealing-skin-tight-superhero tights bleeding nameless bad guys and going back to quiet reform, she's a celebrated character. It's sexist and idiotic. One of my big hopes for Darkholme's future is both he and Laura connect, as ex-X-Force members and ex-killers.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Well, good writing would insist that Darkholme kill Blob and not hold back his weapon, as you would suggest then. Being the proper objective is to salvage Evan and make a decent character out of him in the future. Your point is very decent, you can't change one and not the other. It says something about the team's efforts to save Evan, it makes it all worth it.


I tend to agree. I feel that using him as if he were Wagner at this point would be a cop-out.
Ult_Sm86 wrote:However, your disdain for Remender is sort of hard to place, Sundown. I'm not really sure I see where your criticisms are coming from, I mean he's given as much focus to Betsy and Fantomex (Unfortunately) in this run as he has given to Logan.


I actually didn't realize I came off as disdainful. I was merely repeating what Remender had said, about Final Execution focusing on Wolverine and getting him to the point of joining Uncanny Avengers.

I'd guess, also, if he wanted to use Darkholme as a focal point -- on his own, and not as a tie in -- he probably would have had more than just issue #24. RR had initially said there would be an arc for Darkholme (in an early interview), but that didn't manifest.
Ult_Sm86 wrote:I'm sorry, but your point about Evan being changed is as valid as any, but if you really think they won't try to keep Darkholme longer you're kidding yourself. Of course they will. From what I see on Twitter/Formspring/recorded panels, there's zero interest in the writers and upper management to killing him off and/or bringing back Wagner.


Having written in various times about Kurt Wagner since 2010, I agree completely that Marvel has no intention of bringing him back. TB left another snarky comment today to someone who'd asked about the character. It won't happen as long as Quesada is in office, no matter how the point is argued. I happen to be one of the fans that finds Darkholme acceptable and interesting, but feel like he really needs some development. I'm not getting a warm fuzzy feeling that they will continue to use Darkholme, but (and I'm not sure how I gave the impression otherwise), I'm crossing my fingers they will. I'd be happy enough to have him on the Brotherhood, so he'd at least be in use. That's far better than dead and being left with Evo Kurt and bamfs. If you've read some reassurance from Marvel regarding the fact that Darkholme won't be offed in this arc, please share it -- and I'm saying this sincerely, as I've not stumbled across any. I've asked Brevoort on FS about it, and his reply was not reassuring.

I think Darkholme has a ton of untapped potential, and just needs a writer who'll use the character.


Ult_Sm86 wrote:Having a fractured image of Wagner running around Marvel, possibly working to "repair" this image and maybe making a decent character out of him? Way more of an investment for the writers.


Again, we're in agreement. This is essentially the argument I presented on CBR about the issue.
Ult_Sm86 wrote: One of my big hopes for Darkholme's future is both he and Laura connect, as ex-X-Force members and ex-killers.


I'd buy the hell out of that.

In addition, I've read where a lot of Nightcrawler fans view Darkholme as what is blocking Wagner's return, since he's in 616. From what Marvel has said, I really don't think that's the case. The original was written into a corner to the point where there was basically zero interest in using him and, because Marvel wrote his death as a main point in a story arc, they won't be undoing it any time in the near future. Personally, I feel that people should continue to show an interest in the character and character concept, for the simple reason that so much focus is being placed on cash cows lately like Wolverine and Cyclops. I suppose I view Darkholme as consistent with the character design a lot more so than Kid Kurt, who seems based on the X-Men Evolution concept. No, I'm not going on personality depiction, because that can fluctuate from writer to writer, I'm talking design basis.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:20 pm

I've tweeted at him about 3x today,
@Remender I don't mean to pry for spoilers, but we sort of have no 'Crawler left. Is Darkholme sticking around? Any plans? #Darkholme4Life



@Remender I can't stand the idea of #KidCrawler being the only Kurt left. Darkholme has so much potential. I'm psyched to see where he goes.


We'll see what hapens. He and Skottie Young, Bendis, Brevoort are pretty good about responding to fans. Fraction, Way, Crain, Wells, not so much.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:31 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I've tweeted at him about 3x today,
@Remender I don't mean to pry for spoilers, but we sort of have no 'Crawler left. Is Darkholme sticking around? Any plans? #Darkholme4Life



@Remender I can't stand the idea of #KidCrawler being the only Kurt left. Darkholme has so much potential. I'm psyched to see where he goes.


We'll see what hapens. He and Skottie Young, Bendis, Brevoort are pretty good about responding to fans. Fraction, Way, Crain, Wells, not so much.


Please, keep me posted on that. :)

When I asked Brevoort, he said "Rick does like him a death". :(
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 5:37 pm

@Remender Please, Remender-Wan Kenobi... You're our only hope. #Nightcrawler4Life Nightscrawlers.com Darkholme is fun, keep 'im around!


I think that's a definite attention-getter.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:05 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
@Remender Please, Remender-Wan Kenobi... You're our only hope. #Nightcrawler4Life Nightscrawlers.com Darkholme is fun, keep 'im around!


I think that's a definite attention-getter.


Sent you a PM Ult.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:14 pm

Responded.

I want everyone to know that as a fan, nothing is more important to you than your character and I promise you Marvel knows that. They sometimes pretend to forget, maybe they even do, but it's in their best interests to remember that and don't be afraid to remind them. That's why they're online anyways. If they were afraid of this, they wouldn't "verify" their Formspring or Twitter accounts. (As some of them choose not to).
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:32 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:Responded.

I want everyone to know that as a fan, nothing is more important to you than your character and I promise you Marvel knows that. They sometimes pretend to forget, maybe they even do, but it's in their best interests to remember that and don't be afraid to remind them. That's why they're online anyways. If they were afraid of this, they wouldn't "verify" their Formspring or Twitter accounts. (As some of them choose not to).


Was all that Remender's response? ---^
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:35 pm

If twitter allowed more than 140 characters, I bet it would've been.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:42 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:If twitter allowed more than 140 characters, I bet it would've been.


:P===

So what was it? Anything good?

Here are some I've gotten from Marvel, regarding Nightcrawler:


"While Nightcrawler has passed on, the world of X-Men continues to move forward with many characters who would be deemed to look different by conventional standards - like the Age of Apocalypse Nightcrawler who is a key character in Uncanny X-Force. "

"With respect to the new Nightcrawler, the same is true of him that is true of any character in the MU, you never know what can happen. Our characters grow, learn, die, get resurrected, turn evil, become heroes, find themselves on the wrong side of the tracks and or find redemption. What is true "death" for a character is stagnation. If we told the story of any of our characters and there wasn't change to their status quo from time to time, readers would stop reading, books would be canceled and characters would be put on the shelf to gather dust."

From Lowe, awhile back, regarding 616 Nightcrawler: "I know you miss Nightcrawler. I do too. I stand by "Second Coming" and Kurt's incredibly noble death, but it was incredibly painful to work on and I've missed the swashbuckler"

Yeah, so they do read them, it's just debatable what you get from the answers.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Oct 08, 2012 6:46 pm

No response yet, when I have gotten them before it's been up to weeks later.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Sundown » Mon Oct 08, 2012 7:01 pm

:) Aw, you got my hopes all kind of up with that earlier comment. Yeah, I expect any creator gets a ton of questions, if they put themselves out there.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Dazy » Mon Oct 08, 2012 10:16 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
It's too easy to try to turn the clone into the original. See: Laura, Cuckoos.


Laura is a completely separate character from her idiot brother/father. Even from Sabertooth (her... uncle?) She is, without a doubt, one of the most unique members of the Creed/Howlett family line. Her joining the Avengers and making a pointed effort to turn her life around is a testament to that. Easily one of the most underrated characters and it infuriates me that people push her titles under the rug when she doesn't wear school girl clothes covered in blood, or skimpy skin revealing outfits. When she's in jeans and a jacket, running around and giving orders to Gambit, her title gets cancelled. When she's in nearly-nipple-revealing-skin-tight-superhero tights bleeding nameless bad guys and going back to quiet reform, she's a celebrated character. It's sexist and idiotic. One of my big hopes for Darkholme's future is both he and Laura connect, as ex-X-Force members and ex-killers.


What I meant by trying to turn the clone into the original was that that's why she was created (in canon, not like, the actual purpose of the character.) She was born to be a weapon like Wolverine.
...
Which, given her character development, begs the question if the original reincarnation of Apocalypse could have actually been rehabilitated.

Oop I keep forgetting this is a Nightcrawler oriented thread and not about Evan. andkasdna I'm going back to my corner now.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Angelique » Tue Oct 09, 2012 12:03 am

Wow, I couldn't disagree more about Kurt's death. There is no way a resurection could make his death meaningless... as it already was treated as meaningless and signalled that the books had gotten far too dark for my taste. There was plenty of interest in writing Nightcrawler, and from what I understand, none of the writers wanted to kill him off. At that point, he was one of the only good guys left, the one who wasn't interested in losing his soul for the physical survival of a genetic quirk. Everyone had gotten too dark and edgy or shoved way too far into the background, and when they killed Nightcrawler off, I knew I could no longer depend on the X-books for my fix of superheroics. I didn't stop reading because I thought the characters were becoming stagnant. I stopped reading because I thought all the heroes were killed off, shoved into the background, or were behaving in insufferably stupid or even villainous fashion while still being pushed as brilliant leaders and heroes- in other words, changed for the worse.

But more back onto the topic of X-Force, I recall other discussions about nature vs. nurture, and the truth is that both are at play. Furthermore, with regard to nature, it's not all or nothing. Nobody is inherently all good or all evil. The capacity for both is within human nature. So I could be satisfied with Evan deciding to be good because of his (kind of) good upbringing, and Darkholme deciding to shake off the baggage of his lousy upbringing. What it boils down to is choice. And if they do go that direction, I'd be somewhat amused that the best feel-good story from the X-books would come from that team of assassins.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Tue Oct 09, 2012 1:54 am

Excellent post Angelique! I agree that while nature vs nurture is a large part of what makes you YOU, in the end it is the choices the define your character. The child of a politician is not forced to enter politics, while an inner city kid raised by gang bangers and drug addicts are not forced to lead that lifestyle. Likely, but not certain. While one may succumb to the pressures of an impending lifestyle, another may fight against the grain and be something completely different. But I do see in this book how they will choose one or the other. Not a purely happy ending.

Also, reading this post got me thinking. This part is going to crossover into the Avengers vs X-Men discussion so if you have read through issue 12 or don't mind SPOILERS, read on. If you don't want to know, stop now. So, In the last issue, Hope and Scarlet Witch 'destroy' the Phoenix Force, and the power surge therein causes normal people to become mutants all over the world, and now homosuperior is no longer endangered! Instead of 'No more mutants', the opposite occured. 'More mutants'. Well, what if all this, the emergence of new mutants from normal DNA and similar things, has the power to resurrect the dead? To bring back those lost in the struggle? If any power in the Marvel Universe can, it is the combination of the Pheonix Force and the Scarlet Witch! Maybe the Original Kurt Wagner can return! I know it is off topic, but what do you think of my theory? Too soon for the big guys at Marvel?
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Dazy » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:01 am

I don't think they're going to bring him back like that.
Pretty sure the point of the Phoenix breaking up was to reverse M-Day.

On the subject of good guy heroes, yeah, Wagner was one of the few left. Him and Ororo, and apparently she's going to be in the X-Force line up...which I hope is false, because Ororo doesn't kill. :I
I dunno, I sort of want Wagner to come back, but at the same time, not? It's a weird conflicting feeling and I don't like it.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 2:30 am

I will ne be convinced otherwise. There is no counter-argument that works to me. Bringing Wagner back completely overwrites any meaning (what little there may be in your opinion) to his death. It goes against the purpose of killing off any character.

That said -- Darkholme is here to stay, let's hope. For a while, at the least.
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:04 am

I believe bringing back dead characters takes from the meaning of loss as well. But, regardless... I miss him. Just like you miss a loved one or a close friend, I want him back. Like he never died in the first place. It sucks being such a huge fan and not having him around anymore. Trying to fill the void with Darkholme or Waggoner helps, but it isn't the same. Like diet coke or veggie burgers. I am just selfish I guess...
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Re: Uncanny X-force Thread

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Oct 09, 2012 3:10 am

Bamfing_Bob wrote:I believe bringing back dead characters takes from the meaning of loss as well. But, regardless... I miss him. Just like you miss a loved one or a close friend, I want him back. Like he never died in the first place. It sucks being such a huge fan and not having him around anymore. Trying to fill the void with Darkholme or Waggoner helps, but it isn't the same. Like diet coke or veggie burgers. I am just selfish I guess...


As I said above, there's nothing selfish about it. It's what defined you as a comic fan, this character brought you into this hobby. Into this lifestyle. Needless to say, it has captured you nearly entirely.

It makes total sense. And I think taking Darkholme away and leaving us only Waggoner is a really cheap/dick move on Marvel's part. Ultimate Kurt, 616-Kurt, Manga Kurt, Noir Kurt, and probably if they ever had one in 1602, a 1602 Kurt, (would never have made it) all died.

Now we have AoA and Kid-Crawler. And you're telling me the last one standing is Kid-Crawler? Unless they mean to make a conundrum where all the Nightcrawler's die in all the multiverses, and there's an anomaly that the Watchers are unsatisfied with this and make a change, bringing 616 (at the least) back? I can't see how this is fair to the Kurt-Fans.

Feed us a character, take him away. Feed us a new one? Take him away too. What's the point? Trust me. If they kill Darkholme, there'll be hell to pay.
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