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Post by Maelstrom » Thu Aug 21, 2003 10:26 pm

Hmmm.... very persuasive words, there, Dracadancer. I didn't realize that Ororo's mother was born of a "sorceress" line. In that case, you may well be right....
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Post by Bamf Bunny » Thu Aug 21, 2003 11:19 pm

Originally posted by Dracadancer
Anybody ready to agree with me yet about Virginia being related to Storm in some way? ;)
I'm ready to agree with you - I just don't like the idea.

Ororo has such an over the top, 70's black power origin - born in Harlem, grew up in two parts of Africa; from both a middle-class American and a royal African family; has an African name ... She was thoroughly a strong black character, not just a generic character who happened to have dark skin. I'd hate to see her most distinctive traits - her powers, her white hair and blue eyes - be explained by a white woman in the woodpile.
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Post by blueberrymuffin » Fri Aug 22, 2003 11:51 pm

I really doubt that Virginia is supposed to be related to Storm or Storm's counterpart. or whatever. And I have to say that I really hope not. That would be ludicrus IMHO.
Also remember that charcter's are being taken from all over the Marvel Universe and not just the X men. I think they have enough Xmen counterparts as it is.
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Post by Moongazer » Sun Aug 24, 2003 3:14 am

I finally just got the issue, and it was very interesting.
Snoogans.

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Post by Northstars Love » Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:51 am

Originally posted by Dracadancer
In which case, if everyone's great great great etc. grandparents are the characters, then John Grey may actually BE a John Grey and not a Jean, though if he is a guy he's a bit of a girly looking guy.


I got the impression that John was actually a Jean. You are talking about the 17th century. Women were not considered in those times worthy to man the sea...Before I'm pelted with rocks and everything else not attached to God's green Earth...there have been women that have proven themselves in the history books...Joan of Arc..to mention one. But for Scotius to say "he speaks little" gives me the impression that John is actually a female in a male disguise.

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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 25, 2003 3:26 pm

Originally posted by bamf!nightcrawler
I got the impression that John was actually a Jean. You are talking about the 17th century. Women were not considered in those times worthy to man the sea...Before I'm pelted with rocks and everything else not attached to God's green Earth...there have been women that have proven themselves in the history books...Joan of Arc..to mention one. But for Scotius to say "he speaks little" gives me the impression that John is actually a female in a male disguise.
I'm assuming this also: "John" is "Jean" dressed as a male. Women were second class citizens for quite a while, considered "bad luck" and generally forbidden to go on boats as anything but the rare, paying passenger (which invariably meant nobility). Even Queen Elizabeth, the most powerful person (let alone woman) in England, opened up a speech with "Though I am but a woman".

Also, assuming Jean and Scott are just as close here as they are in the original 'verse (which seems 100% likely to me), disguising her as a male would keep other "amorous men" off of her without Scott blowing his stack every few minutes. It would also keep her from standing out: plenty of young men would go adventuring and gallavanting about, but a young woman doing the same thing would be noteworthy, and the last thing any "witchbreed" wants is to be noticed, especially during a mission.
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Post by blueberrymuffin » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:03 pm

Good point Maelstrom. Jean/John has lots of reasons to be in "hiding" so to speak. It also lends for quite an interesting revelation when we find out he is a she. I'm interested to find out if the "x-men" actually know that she's a woman or whether that information will be new to them as well.
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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 25, 2003 6:47 pm

It's possible she might be able to hide it from Scott and the others, but NOT from Xavier. He'd pick that up so fast it'd make her head spin (so to speak :D ). Though, if she wanted to keep it a secret, he'd certainly keep his knowledge to himself.
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Post by Northstars Love » Mon Aug 25, 2003 7:14 pm

I think Scotius knows. But is playing off to the others that she's a he. Traveling around with a mate that's a woman wasn't so kosher in those times. It will be interesting to see how it turns out :)

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Post by Dracadancer » Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:13 pm

Well there's a lot of stuff going on today, and among all that "stuff" part two of 1602 came out! I was once again highly impressed and enjoyed the issue throughly.

Gaiman is really keeping up his steam with this one. At first glance it would seem that not much happened in this issue (at least until the end), Fury went to visit Master Carolus Javier’s Select College for the Sons of Gentlefolk (they talked), Virginia, Rojhaz, and Peter went to visit the Queen (they talked), and Matthew started off on his journey to meet with the last Templar (who is now very obviously NOT Xavier) with his new partner (and they talked). But within all the setup there was a number of new characters introduced and witty diologe that kept the story moving along at a good pace and never made it boring or unappealing to read.

[spoiler]The first new character Fury meets at the door to Javier’s is a hunched over, extremely muscular, facial haired Master McCoy. The blue outfit was a nice touch for Hank since it’s been a LONG time since we’ve seen him in his original more human looking form in the comics. I guess some things never change though since, besides sporting a snazzy little beard, Xavier is looking the same as always. There’s hints of the danger room and we finally find out Warren’s name is Werner, it was never mentioned in part one. There was a number of funny moments when Peter went to get Virginia and kept getting picked up and dropped by Rojhaz, as well as the fact that apparently Matthew is a terrible singer despite his occupation as a balladeer. We also get to see the new character of Natasha, who I have to admit I have very little clue who she’s based off of but if I had to guess I would say Mary Jane maybe, who can do some very interesting knitting. We get to hear a little of how Matthew became blind (the lesson we learn: don’t eat any glowing green ooze you find in caves). Count Otto Von Doom makes his first appearance, interesting little gnomes he’s got working for him there, as well as King James of Scotland, (Pretty man? At least for a villain he’s got a good sense of humor). Get to see a bit more of the High Inquisitor, who’s looking more and more like Magneto, and Sister Wanda. BTW the expression on Petros face is just too funny when he reports back to the Inquisitor after having to run all the way from Scotland.

The only real action takes place on the last few pages but it’s pretty entraining, if not slightly puzzling. Rojhaz using the tray to throw, again, nice touch. So now there’s at least three people running around trying to murder Fury, Virginia and the Queen. Who are the other two? Any guesses?

Perhaps the most intriguing thing was what happened when Virginia got kidnaped and turned into a giant griffin looking creature. I can’t for the life of me think of anyone in the Marvel universe who’s got that power so anybody care to guess? Some have said she might be the 1602 version of Thor but I assumed the guy in the cave during Dr. Strange’s dream was going to be Thor at some point, plus I can’t remember Thor ever having the power to turn into a bird. I still think there might be a chance, I just feel the similarities are too great for it just to be random, that she still might be related to Storm. We still have yet to learn who the last Tempar is since he wasn't even in this issue or what it is he's bringing to England that everybody appartly wants. [/spoiler]
So many characters so many questions. I guess we’ll just have to wait and see for the answers.

Oh and BTW I just LOVE Kubert and Isanove's art on the book. If all comics looked like this I, for one, would be dead broke from buying as many as possible.
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Post by MabusRex » Wed Sep 10, 2003 11:42 pm

About Virginia Dare:
[spoiler]I don't think she's going to have a Marvel analogue. I think she's somehow tied in with the real life mystery behind Croatoan/Roanoke disappearance myth. But that's just my take on it.[/spoiler]

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Post by Northstars Love » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:28 am

Picked up the 2 part of this series. I have only one thing I need to ask. Perhaps someone could answer one question:

[spoiler]What was that bird in the last frame? A shape shifter? Virginia herself? Or some sort of mutated hawk or vulture? And I'm assuming the one that attacked and took Virginia was the Vulture from Spider-Man? Any thoughts guys?[/spoiler]

I enjoyed the read and wait with anticipation for part three:)

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Post by Dracadancer » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:43 am

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**[spoiler]What was that bird in the last frame? A shape shifter? Virginia herself? Or some sort of mutated hawk or vulture? [/spoiler]
[spoiler] It seems that the griffin looking creature in the last frame is indeed Virginia. After reading up some on the Marvel universe it seems that Virgina most likely is a new character from Gaiman, though I still say she might be related to Storm in one way or another. It stands to reason then that the last Templar guy might also be a new character too since the historical figures seem to be new and the marvel characters are pretty easy to pick out. Of course I'm sure Gaiman will keep us guessing to the end, but that's one of the reasons why I enjoy 1602 so much.[/spoiler] ;)
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Post by Northstars Love » Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:28 am

Now that I look over the issue again, you maybe right Dracadancer. This will get more interesting as this series progresses.

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Post by Phoebe Mittens » Sat Sep 13, 2003 2:13 pm

I don't even know if this is a spoiler or not, but hey! Anyone wondering about the character Natasha who was talking to Matthew Murdoch: [spoiler]she's the Black Widow, hence she's knitting a spiderweb. I don't know much about this character, but apparently she was originally a Russian KGB spy who at some point switched over to being a good guy. [/spoiler]

Oh and as for Storm being related to Virginia, I doubt it - Gaiman has said he's not using anyone from that team (so no Wolvie, no Nighty... :( ).

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Post by Dracadancer » Sat Sep 13, 2003 3:22 pm

Ahhhh...So THAT'S who Natasha is. I was wondering about that, I thought she looked like MJ kinda. :P As for the Virginia thing, I don't think she IS Storm anymore but I would still say there's the chance of her being Ororo's ansestor (see other posts for info as to why) so I don't know if that counts as "useing" someone post marvel silver era or not.

Here's the updated list of people in the comic so far though:

[spoiler]
Sir Nicholas Fury - Nick Fury
Doctor Stephen Strange - Stephen Strange (Dr. Strange)
Peter Parquagh - Peter Parker (Spiderman)
Matthew Murdoch - Matt Murdoch (Daredevil)
Count Otto Von Doom - Dr. Doom
Grand Inquisitor - Erik Mangnus Lehnsherr (Magneto...most likely)
Petros - Pietro Django Maximoff (Quicksilver)
Sister Wanda - Wanda Django Maximoff (Scarlet Witch)
Virginia - new character as far as we know (Might be related to Storm...come on now, white hair, blue eyes, plus all the talk of the weather....makes one wonder....)
Rojhaz - Steve Rogers (Captian America)
Carlos Javier - Charles Francis Xavier (Prof. X)
(So are they going to be called the J-Men in 1602? snicker)
Scotius Summerisle - Scott Summers (Cyclops)
Robert Trefusis - Bobby Drake (Iceman)
John Grey - Jean Grey (Marvel Girl)
Werner- Warren Kenneth Worthington III(Angel)
Master McCoy - Hank McCoy (Beast)
Natasha - Natasha Romanov (Black Widow)
The Last Templar - new character????
[/spoiler]
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Post by MabusRex » Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:14 pm

Yeah. Natasha is very obviously [spoiler]the Black Widow.[/spoiler] And honestly, I doubt Virginia has ANY connection to Ororo whatsoever.

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Post by Garble » Sat Sep 13, 2003 7:20 pm

From what I gather, Virginia is based on a historical/legendary figure and isn't supposed to be connected to any regular, Marvel character.

Though I do admit that at the end of #2 [spoiler]I was reminded of Snowbird from Alphaflight. Though Snowbird is a rather obscure character and she tends to turn into Owls more often than Gryphens.[/spoiler]

I think she's just there to add something different to the formula.

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Post by blueberrymuffin » Mon Sep 15, 2003 10:04 pm

I think, with regard to Virginia, that Gaiman is trying to show us that there are other mutants besides the ones we already know about. Marvel used to introduce new Mutants regularly, so it would make sense that Gaiman would introduce some too. Besides it would be a little boring if it was JUST the characters we already knew, just in another time and place. Gaiman's just spicing it up, and guaranteed he'll bring it all to light as the series progresses.
And I have to say one more time that I HIGHLY doubt that Virginia has any relationship to Storm.
I can't wait for the next issue though. Things are really getting interesting aren't they?

PS. Garble....check out page one of the thread for a full history of Virginia Dare Courtesey of your felly Nightscrawlers.
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Post by Dracadancer » Fri Oct 17, 2003 2:52 am

I forgot to even ask last week what everyone thought of the 1602 part III. Overall I liked it. Kinda felt it could be moving along a little faster, but I tend to feel that way about everything. :rolleyes Besides that one thing though I'd say it was a pretty solid issue. Some very intriguing stuff going on....

[spoiler] It's looking like Virginia is now leaning more toward being some kind of magical creature than an actual mutant since Rojhaz said her powers manifested at 6 or 7 and that's awfully young for a mutant. A lot of people are saying she might be based off Snowbird but I'm not seeing it. What would be the point of having her based off a Canadian character if she's suppose to be the first person born in America, which I'm assuming that'll be important at some point? If anything I think this leads her more to the possibility of being related to Storm since she appears to be mystical in some way, I promise I won't go into a rant about that again but I'm curiously waiting to see if I'm going to be right about that or not. I'm also eager to see some real action soon since a lot of what's going on now seems to be political talk type stuff. Don't know if I'd say I like this one quite as much as the first two issues but I'm still just as eager for issue four to come out. [/spoiler]
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This year’s winner of the Foot in the Mouth award Donald Rumsfeld

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Post by Phoebe Mittens » Mon Oct 20, 2003 8:39 pm

I'm a bit intrigued that Good Queen Bess appears to have been knocked off a bit early... I'm SURE she died in 1603, same year as Shakespeare became a member of the King's Men, the King being James...

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Post by Bamf Bunny » Sun Dec 14, 2003 5:16 am

Just read 1602 #5 and was struck by the painting of the Fantastic Four in action. It's based on the cover of Fantastic Four #1 by Jack Kirby - a nice, and subtle, nod to the comics history that 1602 is built on.
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