Exiles General Discussion

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Post by Bamfette »

Originally posted by SmoothBamf


how can you disagree with me in your post you list 2 deferent ways that "under certain circumstaces"characters have lefet the group without dying or going home 3 if you want to censored slur the TJ fiasco

I agree that ssabretooth convinced the time broker that there was a different way to fix that world so I ges it was by choice but blink went there to when she got sent "home"

I don't know what choice Hyperion made but in my iss #45 he dies and it dosn't look like his chois to get stabbed in the back by gambit with a kineticly charged sole sword

now I shall address the TJ problem first I think your being to literal with the rules because based on your theory (that TJ's realty would not get fixed because she is in the 616 realty) all the characters that dyed would not get there realtys fixed either and the 616 folks jump around realtys so often whos ta say that she can't go there and fix it her self :bamf
Hyperion chose to stay and try to rule the world. him dying wasn't part of my example. on two different worlds, his plan was to stay and purposely NOT complete the mission and therefore not advance on to the next reality. the first one, it got completed despite his wishes. all the X-Men died, so they moved on. the second one his plan was brought to an abrupt and more permanent halt with his death. a loophole, but playing within the rules. they can't advance to the next reality until the one they are in is fixed, so he just chose to delay that. Sabretooth did the same thing, basically. Blink had no reality to go back to so she went to the only other surviving person from that dead reality (well, that she had a connection to, so not Sugar Man, Dark Beast or Holocaust...). it's outlined in perfectly clear terms in the first arc of Exiles how exactly this is all supposed to work, and this doesn't fit at all. Hyperion, Thunderbird and Sabretooth all worked within the established rules, this doesn't, mostly because of Beak.

i looked it up and i was *slightly* off, but the part i was off about only fucks things up more... the dead members would eventually get their realities fixed, as it is not up to them as INDIVIDUALS to fix their home reality, it simply gets fixed as they complete missions as a team. so yeah, this means TJ's reality will be fixed, but now she can't help? she will never know if it has been done? that's the problem, the events that make them exiles (and why Beak totally breaks the rules) is that events in realities besides their own have caused a chain reaction that caused events in their PAST to change to the point where they are plucked into Exilehood. Mystique kills Kurt. so if she dies now, without her reality being fixed, she goes back to a reality where he's ALREADY dead. no way to prevent it.

she can't fix her reality because 'fixing' it does not involve changing the event that will occur as a result of not fixing it, (if that makes sense...) nor does it necessarily happen in that reality, as has been explained many times over in the series. without the Tallus, she would not know what to fix, or which reality it was in.

here's the rules as set out in Exiles. direct quote (after the Timebroker tells them all of the awful fates that await them should the realities notbe fixed)

"The lives you lived have been rewritten. But you now have an opportunity to change them back.

You will have to repair the breaks in the chain of time that caused these ripples.

The breaks are incidents in different realities and while not appearing to directly affect you, I assure you they do.

You will be realigning the dominoes so they won't fall on top of you. In turn, you will get your lives back.

If successful, you'll return to the exactly when you left, unaged and unchanged.

But the dangers are real. you can be injured, you can die. And you can fail. -- Which would return you to these unfortunate new existances."
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Post by Crawler »

The only obvious breaking of the Exiles rules here has nothing to do with TJ. It's the taking of Beak that mucks things up.

His timeline doesn't have a hiccup and he can't be an eXile unmissed because the 616 reality will keep going without him.

No matter what your interpretation of the other rules, this one is clear: When you complete your mission, you are sent back to your home reality at the exact moment you left. Whether you remember your time as an eXile is up for debate, but to everyone else in your reality, you never left.

This is why the series didn't have a 616 character before. You can't pause it and retconning with a "no...I was here all along" would be too messy.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

My question is now.....if her reality IS corrected in the process of the Exiles journeys.....will she be able to return EVER? My guess is no......

It's SO not part of the whole deal.......:(
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Post by SmoothBamf »

I'd be willing to bet they go there at some point, but for one reason or another she won't be able to stay.

Oh yeah. I think Beak sucks, but you don't honestly think all 6 universes are paused (or 12 if you want to count when the Weapon-X group was out there). Isn't it in the realm of possibility that the time broker can send them back in time? Because we already know he can send them back unaged and physically the same. That means that if they lost an eye, it would be back. So, based on this theory, Beak would not mess anything up other than the fact he still will suck. In fact, I think he might be the most sucky x-character yet.

Moderators Note: Edited for spelling and my personal sanity.
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Post by Bamfette »

... but that's what we're saying. that's why this doesn't work. Beak, in our timeline is GONE! he will not be appearing in any of the X-Men books. he's gone, and the characters he left behind know he is gone. there's no way to send him back to the moment in which he left without MAJOR retcons involved. with the others, it's like they NEVER LEFT. no one notices they are gone. think about it. if Beak is gone, and people her KNOW he is gone, then that means he was never sent back to the moment in which he left.
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Post by SmoothBamf »

Not true, if the Time broker can send people back in time, it would be like he never left. It wouldn't matter that time had passed without him there.

But if we're lucky, he'll die.
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Post by Crawler »

BUT HE CAN'T SEND BEAK BACK IN TIME BECAUSE WE'RE WATCHING THAT REALITY!

The only way to follow the rules is for Beak to NOT disappear from the regular X-Books.
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Post by Bamfette »

>.<!!!!!!

THINK!!!!

this is simple. Beak is gone. people in the books we all follow month in and month out KNOW he is gone. If he at any time was sent back to the moment in which he left, they wouldn't notice his absence in the first place. therefore, he is never sent back, and never CAN BE, because people DID notice. period. there is NO CHANGING THIS! it is IN PRINT!
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by SmoothBamf
Because we already know he can send them back unaged and physically the same. That means that if they lost an eye, it would be back [/i][/size]
The reason they are sent back unaged is because they aren't aging...they are unhinged from time...aka there is no time passing...therefor no aging. And if they lost an eye, its gone.....go back and read the first few issues....ALL the rules are there...whatever happens to them in Exile will stay with them....
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Post by SmoothBamf »

That is bull-crap, nothing is set in stone, especially in the comic book world. And if he is returned in the same point and time that he left, NO ONE would know that he was gone. :naughty

Also, as Bamfette quoted in the rules above, they are to remain unchanged when they go back,"Unaged and Unchanged"
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Post by Crawler »

That's what we've been saying. He can't return to the same point in time without a big retcon.

Retcons bad.

THAT IS WHY HE'S AGAINST THE RULES.
Because there wont be a retcon. They're not going to scrap however much Marvel history for a minor character like BEAK.
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Post by Bamfette »

...

ok. point by point.


1. Beak was taken by the Exiles team.

2. Angel and everyone notice he is gone.

3. we all see in the books we all follow that they know he is gone. he never shows up in any of the X-Men books either never or until such time that he leaves the Exiles.

therefore, he was never sent back in time. that's all there is to it! it's not opinion, it's not changeable, it is FACT.

HOW, exactly, is he supposed to be sent back in time to the moment he left if all these stories have ALREADY BEEN WRITTEN where he is gone? how do you suddenly insert him into books where he was already written as being GONE? you tell me how you would fix that whopping plot hole.

If he WAS put back at the same moment, NO ONE WOULD NOTICE!!!! HOW can you not see this?
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Post by SmoothBamf »

All this means, is that the Time broker is not expecting him to survive. You guys keep changing the subject, my first point was that there are other ways for characters to leave. That point is corect, however you want to rationalize it. They already broke the rules. The time broker himself has broken the rules. All that happened before this TJ/ Beak thing, and did you ever think that the time broker might be full of shit?
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Post by Bamfette »

the Timebroker can't break the rules. the Timebroker IS the rules. But he has still set in place guidelines of how things are done, how Exiles become 'unhinged from time' and why they are chosen. if it deviates from that, i damn well expect a good explanation.

he might be lying, (though he's not even a real person, just a construct of the teams consiousness. but the power behind him....) but Blink left because her reality was fixed. sorta. tho she had no reality to go back to, it was changed so that she was at least born. so she was taken out and replaced with Illyana, so the Timebroker ws true to his word on that, at least. If it is proven that he's lying to all of them, fine. but it hasn't been.

and of course we want to rationalize it. isn't it reasonable that we want the books follow some semblance of logic? if the Beak thing differs from everything that's come before, shouldn't we get a reason WHY? and what i was saying is they DIDN'T break the rules before. Thunderbird was as good as dead. so the Timebroker decided he should be left behind and replaced. not a rule breaking, because the Timebroker decided. Sabretooth came up with an alternate plan which accomplished the same goals, and the Tallus/timebroker agreed to let him stay because it still fixed the timeline. Hyperion did not break the rules in any way, he infact used them to his advantage.

in the Sabretooth issue it even explains what happens if you stay behind, and why Hyperion could work (though not as permanently as Hyperion thought, but he still didn't break the rules)

The Timebroker again:

"If you do not complete the mission, you do not move forward. Not you, (Exiles) not Weapon X, nobody. you all stay here.

but after a period of time, some longer than others, your own reality will call you back to the altered existence you were plucked from. You won't get your lives back."

then Cal said there had to be another way, and the Timebroker went on about how there might be but he was only a construct of their consiousness, and he goes buh-bye. then at the end, Sabretooth explains how they found an alternate solution to the timeline's problem, that the Timebroker agreed to, but it involvedhim staying, and creating a new splinter reality.

IF in the case of Beak the Timebroker pops in and explains the whole mess, because the Timebreaker MAKES the rules, and can change them, fine. until then it's a big assed mistake. does Beak have an 'out'? all the others do. can he ever get out of this short of dying, or is he stuck in it for good? does he have a mission to complete? if so, if he completes it, what changes will be made? what's gone wrong with the reality he's from (the one we read about month in, month out...) what happens if he does complete the mission and goes back? he can't go back to the time he was taken. that's impossible now, which is the whole problem. and realities timelines move at different speeds, he could end up coming back 50 years from now. since Nocturne was left behind, what becomes of her? does she EVER go back? will she be pulled back after a time to an un-fixed reality? the Timebroer spoke as though it was more like a law of nature, not some arbitrary rule, so i am not susre if it is something she is now exempt from or not. is her timeline fixed? we think it will be, eventually, but are we SURE? as Nacht said, she is was 'unhinged from time' is that changed now, or is she effectively immortal barring being killed by outside means? these are pretty big questions that should be answered. like i said, IF they are, in the comic, fine. but not till then.

normally i am not so anal about details or continuity, but these are HUGE unanswered questions!
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Post by Diablo »

Hum, it's pretty confusing. :X

Sorry to add one more problem, but isn't the Timebroker a construct of their collective consciousness ?

When the Exiles change, the Timebroker changes, so do their missions (exemple : with Illyana, their missions became deadlier.)... and so do the rules.
What do you think ??

I must admit, what would Beak possibly add to this team that could break the old rules ??

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Post by SmoothBamf »

Forget about Beak and TJ for a minute. You are still missing my initial point, which was; the rules don't always apply even if the Time broker had ok'ed it.

How can you not be suspicious of the Time broker in iss #45? The Time broker says, and I quote "True. Like a virus, some of you had to be expunged for the good of the body--the universe. You werent the first group of reality-fixers we brought together...but you have been the most successful." Morph asks, "We brought together?" "Did I say We? My mistake. A slip of the collective subconcious tongue." Those statements alone should make him untrustworthy. I think that he is a they and that he has bean lying the whole time. I dont think their missions got meaner when Blink left, they were just different.

I have one more point to discuss, but I can't find the book I need to reference, so until I find it, this will be my last post on this matter. If you refuse to believe the facts, thats ok with me.
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Post by scheherazade »

I might have missed the bone of contention here, but, it seems to me, that there's a simple answer here: If, when and exile completes their mission/is called back to their broken reality, they go back to the same place they left, and we know Beak is gone from 616, and hasn't been sent back, it only stands to reason that he is unable to be sent back. That is to say, Beak must die while with the Exiles.

Or am I missing a point? Are they still supposed to go back, even if they're dead?
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Post by Tracker »

Okay, first let me say that I'm only a casual Exiles reader....

Did it ever say that it was 616 that they left TJ? I know it really looked like it, but from all that I've heard of alt realities is that there is one for every possible variation. If this isn't 616, then maybe it is so close that it looks like it...maybe the big difference is one of the X-men was never born, or something else minor enough to slip under the rader.

It would be a dirty trick on the part of the writer, but it would explain how Beak was able to be taken and unhinged in time...and thus avoiding nasty retcons.
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Post by KurtnMeggan »

Did anyone else think the Impossible Man's stuffed versions of the Exiles in #49 were just cuter than life? Namora was my favorite, with her little frown and her little crossed arms...:LOL
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Post by Tyros »

I am not too sure about this.....

Claremont is the writer of Exiles and his bringing Psylocke with him. "In Exiles #84-86, you'll see a Wolverine you haven't seen in a while doing things that will curl your hair," Claremont said, "including killing all the X-Men."
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Originally posted by Tyros
I am not too sure about this.....

Claremont is the writer of Exiles and his bringing Psylocke with him. "In Exiles #84-86, you'll see a Wolverine you haven't seen in a while doing things that will curl your hair," Claremont said, "including killing all the X-Men."
I wouldn't be too sure about it either. Looks like he's planning on rehashing old plots rather than doing new ones...which is what the Exiles are all about! It's about seeing the characters we know in very different ways that we wouldn't expect. Hence...the AUs....

Maybe he means the Wolverine from earlier in the series? The one with Heather and Morph? Maybe I'm thinking of the wrong thing...

I could be wrong, obviously. I havent read Exiles in a while, and maybe Claremont will bring something interesting to the book....

My theory? If he's on the book long enough (i.e. he isnt replaced or it doesn't get canceled within a year or two) he's going to replace all the characters with characters he created......

The art looks nice, though....

[Edited on 4/3/06 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

December solicits!!!
EXILES #89
Written by TONY BEDARD
Pencils & Cover by JAMES CALAFIORE
"WALLFLOWER" Part 1 (of 1)
A stand-alone issue focusing on an Exile that's been out of action of late, Thunderbird! Comatose in a stasis wall, the fallen Exile is dreaming of a world where he had stayed with the team! What would have changed?! And would the team have been better off?! An Exiles issue fans cannot miss!
32 PGS./Rated A ...$2.99
WOOOO!! I hope they do it right! What do you guys think?
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Post by HoodedMan »

Damn, I thought I decomissioned Thunderbird properly; now I'll just have to kill him off again. Stupid writers.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Northstar...slayer of servers!!

But seri, anyone else RIDIC excited about this?? I canot WAIT to see how it plays out, I've missed John SO MUCH :bawl

I'm curious as to exactly what they'll do. It's going to be what he thinks it would be like if he hadn't been left behind by the Exiles. So....does that mean baby??! How frikken cute!

I'd be INCREDIBLY disappointed if they didn't at least mention all that.
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Post by HoodedMan »

Not that I'm not really excited about it; I do want to get into Exiles very much -- it's on the top of my "when I have free time" list. I'll have to start at the first issues though; it'll take me a while to get to #89. But that's a constant. ;)
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