Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 2:46 pm

Claremont's leaving? Well I'm with you I don't care who writes Uncanny just let Kurt stay leader.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 4:28 pm

I won't say I don't care who's writing Uncanny, LOL.
The Brubaker news is fine because the guy is gifted.
But this "leader of the X-Men"/ "not leader anymore" erratic subplot is getting on my nerves.
Kurt has got the experience and the intelligence to become an authority figure.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:03 pm

Well.. in their own classless way, Marvel strikes again. they couldn't even announce it properly. they leak it to Johnson's newsboard two months ago and now the sneak in a "ob, by the way... Brubaker jumps to Uncanny in July" blurb as almost an addendum.
Marvel has no class and hasn't had any professionality for a while now...probably because Millar is pulling Quesada's strings, as Chris Priest expounds on in his website. Sorry I don't have the link...maybe someone here does...someone just sent me a copy of the latest entry on his website. Now, Chris Priest... who has been around Marvel as their token "black" writer for decades, is an old friend. I knew him as Jim Owlsley... and he changed his name sometime back in the nineties, I believe. He has had some ups and downs in his own writing carreer... but he lays it on the line about the office politics in his latest article. He takes full responsibility for some of the goofs he has made in storytelling... but he also tells about the internal jockying for power that affects all the books these days. And he also mentions the boyo's coterie and the fact that from an insider's position he sees Millar as the prime mover in a lot of the upheaval that is going on. This is something us long time observers and former employees have speculated on for a while...it is nice to have confirmation of our suspicions.
and it is not just him, either. I recently heard from another staffer that I once knew well... whose name I willnot reveal here, cuz he is still in line of fire. He confirms everything I have been saying about under the table takeovers and unprofessionality.
Sorry, kiddies..."out with the old, in with the new and shallow" is gonna be the forseeable future. Plotlines by groupthink is the plan for the next year and a half or two...ain't gonna be worth reading or spending money on if House of M is any indication. that was the biggest dud sinceROM... or Secret Wars! PTUI!
...or maybe Devil dinosaur...
since Claremont took over Uncanny, it has remained in the top ten... and the most recent sales figures have it now in ninth position... rising in the ratings. and they surely don't want Claremont to bring it into the upper reaches where they could not attack him with the impunity they seem to think they have right now.
When a writer has a book that is RISING in the ratings, it is unwise to disturb the fan base that is being built. so the indications of underhandedness that has nothing to do with financial concerns is very vident here. The timing of the changeover suggests that they want to ride the wave of X popularity that comes after each X movie... so a flalloff in readership will not e as evident to the money mongers. they brought spidey and wolvie into Avengers to bolster sales of the new Avengers by bringing in fans of those characters that ordinarily didn't pick up Avengers books. And it worked, too. some people will buy any title if their fave character appears in any degree whatsoever. The fact that both spidey and wolvie have other places to be and that their continuity is skewed by this makes no difference. Wolvie is in so many titles he has gotta be the Multiple Man to be everywhere they SAY he is. spidey, since the movies made him VERY popular again, has the same problem... although not to anywhere near the degree that wolvie has.

Oh, well... after having talked to some of the people I have recently talked to and having my worst scenerios confirmed unequivocally... it doesn't surprise me... but it sure saddens me. Marvel was once a fun and entertaining place...
RIIP, Camelot...
Paty

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 5:34 pm

Wow...and here I thought Claremont's writing was shallow...

I, for one, am glad to see him gone. I don't like his Uncanny, and to be perfectly honest, I see Marvel taking leaps and bounds backwards with Claremont on the books. Both Uncanny and New Excalibur have been major let downs, and it remains ridiculously obvious that Claremont does not know how to write characters that represent newer generations (i.e. Nocturne)...

Comics have come so much farther than they were when Claremont was in his heyday. I personally enjoy character driven stories and arcs. I like to see my favorite characters evolve over the course of a few arcs, I like to see them change. I like to see them go through things that I can relate to sometimes. Why does every story HAVE to be action? Why can't one or two be about the character? One of the best issues of any comic I've ever read (and I've said this before) is Exiles 16. No action, no battles fought. Just one issue dedicated to really showing what is going on inside two characters heads...This is where comics was heading with Marvel. And this is how Claremont is backpeddling that.

So, and I have said this before, perhaps it isn't that comics are going bad. Perhaps its they are changing, and being written for a new generation of people who enjoy them. One day, i won't like what is being done. You know what I'll do in that case? I'll find a new hobby, rather than bitch on a website making completely baseless claims of conspiracy and underhanded dealings in a business i am no longer a part of.....

But, then, that's just me....

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:19 pm

NachtcGleiskette, have you ever read Claremont's entire X-Men run ??
Back in the eighties, he got very, very far and made the X-Men disappear. Wolverine got crucified, Ororo became a child, Psylocke had lost her body to become a ninja warrior. Banshee and Forge had become the leader of the unique existant X-squad...
I'm sorry, but no writer has recently accomplished what Claremont did during his first run (1975-1991)
You have at least to give the man some credit.
And when has anyone seen a X-storyline more intense than the Dark Phoenix saga or days of Future Past ?
These arcs have been copied a zillion times.

Brubaker is always welcome regarding Uncanny, but I'm shocked as how Claremont is treated.

I also agree with Paty about Joe Quesada's the lack of interest towards the X-Men.
Quesada likes Wolverine and Storm, but doesn't unerstand the specificity of the X-universe.
Wolverine is on 4 teams at the same time. Ridiculous.
And now, all of a sudden, Storm gets married with Black Panther, leaving the X-Men, her friends and family behind. Do you think it makes sense ??

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:53 pm

Y'see, the problem for us older readers is that we have known these characters for decades... they are old friends and while , yes, people change as their lives go on, the core of each character shouldn't change drastically. they are icons that are used to teach lessons and tell stories. If the core characterization is warped or changes, drastically or without proper motivation, then you no longer know what the character stands for.
This is fine if you don't care about useing the characters as icons... and in that case, why don't younger writers create their own characters to do stuff with? Older readers have a right not to lose the friends they have had for decades just because some young writer doesn't want to do his reesearch on the character.
I have no problem with new styles of writing. I think good storytelling needs new blood to come in and refresh the characters. But when the Big Names... star studded creators who haven't really created THAT much... out weigh the characters that others have developed and the identity of the company... welll then I think things are skewed.
Once upon a time, Chris Claremont was a new writer, too... and his style and characterization built the universe that these new writers are bound and determined to tear down. why don't they build their own universe? because they have not the wherewithal. Yes, the industry and the audience demographics HAVE changed. they ALWAYS change...and good writers can move the characters within that scenerio without destroying the core characterization of the character.
theoretically, there should be room in the industry for everyone to have SOMETHING. that's how you maintain a broad consumer base. but that doesn't seem to be the way it is done these days. Marvel, especially tries to follow the most "hip" style or big name... instead of concentrating on what has been it's forte all these decades... continuity and shared universe and characters you can get to know like your best friend and count on not to change so much that you don't recognize them any more. the proof of the pudding is that these wonderful new stars are not creating new characters...they are simply screwing with the old ones. and that is not their right. Of course they will assume it IS their right when corporate concerns do not protect their valuable characters and their core personalities.

Comic characters of today can be like the icons of yore...like Robin Hood or Zorro ... or King Arthur and his knights of the round Table. But not if you screw with the characterizations every decade. Stories can be woven around them... but unless you maintain a consistancy of characterization, you lose the iconic nature of the character. and you cannot then use him or her to tell the stories that that unique character is all about. If Robin Hood is just a two bit crook, he loses the sympathy and acceptance of the masses that make him an icon or a hero to the common man. If Cyclops loses moral viability, he loses the right to lead the group. If Nightcrawler loses his sense of humor and heroic swashbuckling adventurous nature, he becomes just an embittered religious monster/quasi-demon. and that's no fun at all...not to mention boooooooorrrring.

There should be something for us older readers that we can still enjoy...because we DONT WANT to give up a hobby we have pursued for longer than a lot of fans have been alive. You will understand this when you get older, kidddo... I am not about to give up my interests and fun just because some youngster thinks they can do it better... and cannot prove that to me. If they can do it better, well and good...but if not, then yes, I will bitch and kvetch and scream bloody murder about taking my money elsewhere in the hopes of waking up someone at the company I used to know and love. I may lose the fight... but I will continue to fight for what i believe in. that's all. Others can get bored with what is happening and go elsewhere... but I love this genre and have made it a moving passion in my life because I believe in it's posibilities as a teaching element and art form. It's not just a moment's tittilation to me. that's all...

paty

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 8:09 pm

I can't begin to say how much I agree with you, Paty and Diablo. Except for this. Every new writer is standing on the shoulders of giants. I have nothing against characters changing- as long as it seems a natural, seamless part of character development and is done with respect for the work of each writer's predecessors- and especially for the intelligence of their fans.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:30 pm

Originally posted by Diablo
NachtcGleiskette, have you ever read Claremont's entire X-Men run ??
Back in the eighties, he got very, very far and made the X-Men disappear. Wolverine got crucified, Ororo became a child, Psylocke had lost her body to become a ninja warrior. Banshee and Forge had become the leader of the unique existant X-squad...
I'm sorry, but no writer has recently accomplished what Claremont did during his first run (1975-1991)

You know what? I don't care what he did to the characters in the 80's. i read most of that, and I agree with Nacht. it's not the events that happen, it's how its presented. It's also not about what happened 20 years ago, good or bad. it happened, it's over. times and tastes are different now, it's time to move on.

and ororo becoming a child? and yet another insta-ninja? ugh. what IS his fascination with ninjas, anyway?

anyway. how are your examples of sweeping changes good, but Storm/Black Panther is bad? are you seriously saying the insta-ninjaing of Psylocke made MORE sense than that?

All i know, all that matters to me, is that I dropped Uncanny as soon as Claremont started writing it, and now i will pick it up again, so they are gaining me as a reader, and i don't see myself as somehow less important than readers like you, Paty. I have a passion for this genre, too, but my passion extends to helping the genre itself thrive. That means attracting new readers, and i support anything that does that, and i think this has the potential to do so.

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 11:41 pm

Thank you Jill...

I understand that Claremont has done "important" things in the past. Honestly, Diablo, every point you bring up is, IMHO, stupid! It doesn't indicate good writing or character development. It's GIMMICKS! Baby Xmen? Ninjas? G-I-M-M-I-C-K.

I won't say that Claremont wasn't an important part of the direction the Xmen have gone in. In essense, everything that is being written with them now has come from where HE started with them. But does that make what he's doing now great? He may be a legend, and he may have a legacy, but all he's doing now is backpeddling the entire industry.

I'd take a Brian K. Vaughan or a Judd Winick over Chris Claremont anyday. And it doesn't have to do with how old I am or how much I've read. It has to do with what good writing is.

All I see here is fear of change......

Originally posted by Paty
You will understand this when you get older, kidddo... I am not about to give up my interests and fun just because some youngster thinks they can do it better... and cannot prove that to me. If they can do it better, well and good...but if not, then yes, I will bitch and kvetch and scream bloody murder about taking my money elsewhere in the hopes of waking up someone at the company I used to know and love.

I may learn many things and be many things when I'm older. One thing I won't be is a condescending, disrespectful person who assumes they know people before they do....and knows whats best for them..

Now, here's a question. Why are you still pouring money into a company you hate?

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 2:14 am

The fact that Claremont is leaving doesnâ€™t surprise me in the least, considering where the X-Universe in general is heading.

For more than six months the stories Claremont intended have been hijacked by micromanaging group of dictators that think they can write the stories better. And if you donâ€™t believe that, then you are fairly naive when it comes to the workings of American big business. My complaint is then why hire writers? Just let the editors write the GD stuff themselves. To know this all you have to do is read Claremontâ€™s posts on some of the forums. He made it perfectly clear that he had things planned for Kurt, Ororo, Betsy etc. that never materialized thanks to editorial interference. The X-babies issues from this summer was filler. Just from his comments where he named specific issue numbers you could tell it wasnâ€™t the story he intended to write.

I donâ€™t care what Nacht or Jill or any others who donâ€™t like Claremont have to say. He is one of the best Uncanny writers ever, IMHO, and I was extremely happy to have him back. And I DO intend to drop the title once my subscription expires, which will be just about the time Claremont leaves. I am already unhappy with the current artist and this clinches it.

Some of you may like a lot of these dark controversial plots, but I do not. I just like a good action/adventure story with a smidgen of romance thrown in. Thatâ€™s why I buy Uncanny rather than some of the other X-titles. There is room for ALL of our preferences because there are several , so you have yours and I have mine. You donâ€™t need to expect that they will all be what you want to read. And it is pretty obvious lots of people like the same things that Diablo and Paty and I do, or the sales of Uncanny wouldnâ€™t be as high as they are.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:26 am

and that's fine. I just take issue with a) the argument that 'but he's written so much, he MUST be good!' either I like it or I don't, how much he's written in the past is irrelevant. and b) this argument that simply because he is leaving (and where did this 'fired' talk come from? I meant to mention this earlier, but forgot. every time a writer leaves, everyone jumps to the conclusion they were 'fired' how do you know that? what if he just wanted to move on? what if he quit? it does happen...) that readers will leave in droves, that it's ruining the books for everyone, blah blah blah. it wont happen. some readers will leave, some new readers will pick it up and replace them, and the majority will jsut keep reading. there isn't one 'right' way to write the books.

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 3:52 am

I've enjoyed Claremont's work but I'm fine to see someone else get a shot at Uncanny and maybe New Excalibur. I'll still be pumping money into my local comic book store after Claremont leaves.

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Thu Jan 19, 2006 4:11 am

Everyone having their own taste is completely valid and obviously everyone will have like different things. Jill and I don't like Claremont, some of you do. We're not trying to bully anyone into liking what we like or believing what we believe....

However, the constant rumor mill that has been churning with absolutely no back up whatsoever is tiring. I havent seen numbers, so I dont know Uncanny is selling well. Link me to the numbers. Claremont is victim of editorial hijack? As far as I've heard, so is every other Marvel writer, especially of the big books. Where's the conspiracy? Where is the "screw good writing and fans!"?

This site is supposed to be for open discussion, but when certain veiwpoints are bullied onto others and there becomes a point where it seems like there is a revolt against Marvel being championed, we need to step back and understan Marvel doesn't write for just us. And (as I've said 500 times) what I don't like, what you don't like someone else will. I don't like Claremont, therefor I don't buy Uncanny. I think its as valid as someone who does like Claremont buying Uncanny. But I shouldn't feel like i HAVE to like someone because they've written for a long time...

Again, mad props to the guy for writing forever...but I find him gimmicky

Jeremys Iron · Post by **Jeremys Iron** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:22 am

Originally posted by Paty
â€¦
Marvel has no class and hasn't had any professionality for a while now...probably because Millar is pulling Quesada's strings, as Chris Priest expounds on in his website. Sorry I don't have the link...maybe someone here does...someone just sent me a copy of the latest entry on his website.

I had a good long look at Priestâ€™s website and I couldnâ€™t find anything that spoke directly to what you are accusing Marvel of doing. I know you said you didnâ€™t have a link but since you said you have a copy maybe you could post it here so we can read it?

Originally posted by Paty
Now, Chris Priest... who has been around Marvel as their token "black" writer for decades, is an old friend. I knew him as Jim Owlsley... and he changed his name sometime back in the nineties, I believe. He has had some ups and downs in his own writing carreer... but he lays it on the line about the office politics in his latest article. He takes full responsibility for some of the goofs he has made in storytelling... but he also tells about the internal jockying for power that affects all the books these days. And he also mentions the boyo's coterie and the fact that from an insider's position he sees Millar as the prime mover in a lot of the upheaval that is going on. This is something us long time observers and former employees have speculated on for a while...it is nice to have confirmation of our suspicions.

The two closest pieces on Priestâ€™s weblog to what you are saying are called â€œThe Name Gameâ€

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 12:57 am

Quick sidenote: Claremont was not the first writer on the Xmen. And when he began, he was writing other peoples creations. (1976? What was the team back then? Cyclops, Marvel Girl, Iceman, Angel, Beast (Stan Lee) Nightcrawler, Storm, Colossus (Dave Cockrum) etc....). Same as the writers now picking up books.

And on creating new universes for their writing, have you read Fables? Bill Willingham created an entire new world, and while based on characters which exist, the universe in which he writes them is of his own creation. And new characters? As Jeremy's Iron so wonderfully put, Brian K. Vaughan has written many new characters, and given DC AND Marvel some very popular books (Ex Machina, Y: The Last Man, Runaways) ALL of which are completely his own creation........

So explain to me exactly how Claremont in his beginnings is different from any of the writers of today? Other than when Claremont started, he exclusively wrote other peoples creations.....and still has yet to break out of the X books...

So, what do you propose, new writers write completely new books, while the core books go stale? Sounds like a killer sales strategy.....

Post by **Saint Kurt** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:20 am

Originally posted by Jeremys Iron

As for them having the right, they are given the right to write the stories by the corporation and it is only the corporation that has that right. They own these characters, they do what they think is best, itâ€™s not always right and sometimes they have to come back and change things but it is their prerogative and theirs alone. In some cases this might lead to characters that donâ€™t work anymore or who are no longer popular but so what? There will always be new characters and new stories and just because a characters story isnâ€™t being told anymore doesnâ€™t diminish the quality of the stories that already exist.

AMEN brother! Great post.

-e

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 4:13 am

I picked up the newest issue of Uncanny and I thought it was okay. It kinda fizzled out at the end. [spoiler] Every Grey ends up dead,(except those lucky enough to miss the reunion, I hope

) Rachel's Grandma pretty much disowns her, etc. I mean it was cool to see the sentinals help out and Kurt teleport 50 miles in one port(wonder how they'll explain that?) Anyway I still look forward to the next Uncanny. [/spoiler]

Tyros · Post by **Tyros** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 9:43 am

Originally posted by confusedelf
I picked up the newest issue of Uncanny and I thought it was okay. It kinda fizzled out at the end. [spoiler] Every Grey ends up dead,(except those lucky enough to miss the reunion, I hope ) Rachel's Grandma pretty much disowns her, etc. I mean it was cool to see the sentinals help out and Kurt teleport 50 miles in one port(wonder how they'll explain that?) Anyway I still look forward to the next Uncanny. [/spoiler]

Yea this storyline has seemed a bit excessivly cruel to the characters. I have to say I really have not enjoyed all the death an destruction...it is just not my thing.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:01 am

Originally posted by Jeremys Iron
As for them having the right, they are given the right to write the stories by the corporation and it is only the corporation that has that right. They own these characters, they do what they think is best, itâ€™s not always right and sometimes they have to come back and change things but it is their prerogative and theirs alone. In some cases this might lead to characters that donâ€™t work anymore or who are no longer popular but so what? There will always be new characters and new stories and just because a characters story isnâ€™t being told anymore doesnâ€™t diminish the quality of the stories that already exist.

It is MY prerogative not to buy it, which I will not. And if sales have been down, it's probably because of the House of M crap we've been force fed, which was not Claremont's idea in the first place.

I also wonder if you all would feel the same way if it was KURT they decided to get rid of, which they basically have for the last six months, with next to no presence in Uncanny and none whatsoever in the movie.

[Edited on 20-1-06 by Shadow_Dancer]

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 1:11 pm

Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer

It is MY prerogative not to buy it, which I will not. And if sales have been down, it's probably because of the House of M crap we've been force fed, which was not Claremont's idea in the first place.

I also wonder if you all would feel the same way if it was KURT they decided to get rid of, which they basically have for the last six months, with next to no presence in Uncanny and none whatsoever in the movie.

[Edited on 20-1-06 by Shadow_Dancer]

Then don't buy it. No one's making you. I don't buy Uncanny for that very reason....

And whatever reason the sales are down, they're down. As far as I saw, the sales of the HoM book itself were pretty high...I could be wrong, though.

Where's Kurt going? He's in a bunch of books. I thought he was field leader in Uncanny.......but then, I don't read it, so I don't know. And if he is less than present in Uncanny right now, who's fault is that?

And oh, boo hoo he's not in the movie. Everyone, please, let's get over it. It's not going to change, and there are fans out there of lots of other X-characters (shadowcat, colossus, juggernaut, angel, etc.) who now get to see their favorites in the movie. We had ours, we should be happy he was there at all. It sucks he's not going to be there, but life goes on.

And if he does start showing up les and less in the books...well, I don't think I'll necessarily stop reading. Ultimate seems to be pretty interesting with him, and again, he is the Uncanny field leader. I really don't think he's going anywhere...

I guess we have to ask ourselves...why are we reading? Because we like Xmen stories, we like the universe, we like the characters, or we like Kurt.

He may be close to my favorite character, but I'd rather he not be written than be written poorly by someone who isn't interested but has to keep him for the fans....

Edited to add:
And getting rid of a character is hardly on the same level as getting rid of a writer. Claremont's leaving Uncanny for whatever reason (we don't even KNOW why, all we have is wild speculation and rumor milling) but he'll still be on New Excalibur.

[Edited on 20/1/06 by NachtcGleiskette]

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:07 pm

Actually, if you look at the numbers Jeremy (nice post, btw) posted, the numbers went up by close to 10,000 when house of M was going on... and wether it was Claremonts idea or not, he is NOT being singled out. All the OTHER writers had to deal with House of M, too, and it wasn't their idea, either. This is the way of things writing for Marvel, ESPECIALLY a flagship title like Uncanny. You write a flagship title, unless you are a HUGE name, and/or were smart and made sure it was in your contract that they couldn't do that (like Morrison did) it means the editors WILL be messing with your stories. I'm not saying I think that's right, but that's how it is, and Claremont isn't any more of a victim than any of the other writers are.

If Kurt left, it would be disappointing, but for one, I doubt it's going to happen. And two, we have 25 years of stories with him in it, plus Ultimate, and we would still have those. And third, he is not the ONLY reason I am a fan of the X-Men. I have other characters I like, and if the writing is good, I will read it no matter who the characters are. The characters may get me to try out a title, but they will not KEEP me reading a title. Writing is more important to me. If I read books purely on character, I would not be reading Runaways, Fables, Y, Ex Machina, etc. (can you tell I like Vaughan?

) which have all new characters. And, really, if he had been absent from the books for the past few months, I would not have noticed, anyway....

*edited to fix typos and to add:

If you don't want to read Brubaker.... Fine, that's your right. I don't care, it's no different than me not reading Claremonts books. I'm not saying you have to like Brubaker, or dislike Claremont, I am merely saying what *I* feel, not that you should feel the same (and while I can't speak for them, I think Jeremy and Nacht are doing the same thing, basically). I may end up dropping it, we don't even know what he's going to do, after all. But I will give it a chance, based on what I have read of his in the past.

[Edited on 20/1/06 by Bamfette]

Blue_Demon94 · Post by **Blue_Demon94** » Fri Jan 20, 2006 10:15 pm

Maybe there isn't an actual reason for Claremont leaving other than it's time for him to go.. his run is already over twenty issues, so why not step down now? It's give him time to work on the other titles he's already writing for and also the upcoming series he'll be writing for (not sure of the title, but I heard about it at Marvel.com) Hopefully when he has less titles to juggle, he can come back and focus his full attention to Uncanny..

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 6:24 pm

Well, at least, this thread is more alive that it has been for the past months. Highly positive.

Shadowdancer

Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer

I also wonder if you all would feel the same way if it was KURT they decided to get rid of, which they basically have for the last six months, with next to no presence in Uncanny and none whatsoever in the movie.

[Edited on 20-1-06 by Shadow_Dancer]

I must admit you're right. The X-Men universe without Nightcrawler would be almost uninteresting for me. I'm sorry, but it's how I feel...

Bamfette wrote :

You know what? I don't care what he did to the characters in the 80's. i read most of that, and I agree with Nacht. it's not the events that happen, it's how its presented. It's also not about what happened 20 years ago, good or bad. it happened, it's over. times and tastes are different now, it's time to move on.

and ororo becoming a child? and yet another insta-ninja? ugh. what IS his fascination with ninjas, anyway?

anyway. how are your examples of sweeping changes good, but Storm/Black Panther is bad? are you seriously saying the insta-ninjaing of Psylocke made MORE sense than that?

Dear Jill,

I like Claremont's stories, so what ? I have every right to. I discovered comic books with the Claremont X-Men run.
It lasted several decades, and I enjoyed (almost) every issue.
I also recognizes his flaws.
But nobody got as far as he did back then.
And you just can't criticize the introduction of ninja-Psylocke or child-Storm without knowing. There had been a context. This was the siege perilous saga. The X-Men were disbanded, and Logan was nowhere to be found for several months. That's what I liked. It seemed everyhting could happen.
You don't care, and it's OK, but please respect my opinion and don't be so offensive towards me.

And for the third time, Brubaker's arrival is fine by me.
A guy who says that his linue-up will be "Nightcrawler and some other mutants" (that's what he posted at Newrama) - this man can't be a bad guy !

The only thing that got me concerned is how Claremont, or the artists in general, are treated by Marvel.

[Edited on 22-1-2006 by Diablo]

[Edited on 22-1-2006 by Diablo]

[Edited on 22-1-2006 by Diablo]

chicory · Post by **chicory** » Sun Jan 22, 2006 7:59 pm

Yea this storyline has seemed a bit excessivly cruel to the characters. I have to say I really have not enjoyed all the death an destruction...it is just not my thing.

I have to agree with that. Rachel's been through far too much to [spoiler]kill off all of her relatives in the 616 universe too! It seemed completely unnecessisary. (I'd rather have Rachel occaisonally go play basketball with her grandpa then have to work through another mass killing of loved ones

[/spoiler]

I got into comics through Davis's and Claremont's Excalibur - so I'm a huge fan. I also like the whimsical stuff and the baseball games over the darker stories. (Although at the same time I'm really liking Ultimate).

Davis and Claremont together are the best (although I have to say that other than the first arcs of Excalibur the ones in the middle where Davis alone was doing both the art and the writing were my favorite of all them)

I do have to agree that there's been too much repeating of classic storylines (:phoenix saga) and too many mind-control episodes. (I also don't like the slavery/bondage themes - I'd like to see something new)

Claremont's tendency to tell a story slowly over time (Excalibur) is something I also admire. But, I understand that people look for different things in their favorite writers.

(Edited to ask: uh, Shadow-danger, what forums does Chris Claremont frequent? (it always surprises me when real-life authors are so accessible to the public))

[Edited on 22/1/06 by chicory]

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Mon Jan 23, 2006 4:56 am

Originally posted by Diablo

Dear Jill,

I like Claremont's stories, so what ? I have every right to. I discovered comic books with the Claremont X-Men run.

And i am not saying you don't have the right. I've said that outright a few times now. like whatever you want, I don't care. it's just that people act incredulous that I (or Lisa) could not like his witing, try to convince us how good it is, and it feels like we have to defend our right to dislike his work.

It lasted several decades, and I enjoyed (almost) every issue.
I also recognizes his flaws.
But nobody got as far as he did back then.
And you just can't criticize the introduction of ninja-Psylocke or child-Storm without knowing. There had been a context.

As mentioned, I DID read it. I read a lot of Claremont's stories that i normally would not have because I was doing research for the FAQ section of this site. I HAVE seen it in context. still doesn't impress me.

You don't care, and it's OK, but please respect my opinion and don't be so offensive towards me.

I'm not being offensive. I'm defending MY right to like what i like (or dislike) the same as you. Just because I don't like something you do does not mean I am disrespecting you. I'm trying to be constructive of Claremont, I am not wishing for his death or anything like that. I never said you or anyone else was stupid for liking it. I never even participated in this thread until a new writer was brought up. But the simple fact is i don't like it and nothing you say will change that, because it's all subjective and liking writing/art isn't something that's based on facts or logic, it's more instinctual, even if you are able to outline why, you just do or do not like it, end of story. You're never going to convince someone to like something they don't, or dislike something they've decided they like.

And for the third time, Brubaker's arrival is fine by me.
A guy who says that his linue-up will be "Nightcrawler and some other mutants" (that's what he posted at Newrama) - this man can't be a bad guy !

I never said you weren't fine with it. I wasn't responding JUST to you, i was also responding to Paty and Shadow Dancer and whoever else, i don't even know. What i said wasn't necessarily directed to anyone in particular, some of it was more general.

[Edited on 23/1/06 by Bamfette]