Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

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Post by Paty »

:mags
Well, it's now past Philly Con... and the news is dire. Excalibur is cancelled and New Excalibur is gonna begin in september or October. It is a return to england and that stuff from the first Excalibur series. No Xavier... No magneto...
chris had Mags and Xavier summarily stolen from him for House of M... and when the idiots are finished with them Magneto at least will bear no resemblence to what Chris was doing with him. He may not even have chris's backstory... they have been trying to destroy that for over a decade. The little ratzis can't stand a good looking interesting Jewish super male whom the ladies love and flock to. They will use the reality warp to get rid of Magneto as a complex adversary and make him a mindless villain again... and I will stop buying Marvel products for good and all.
I may buy the nightcrawler series for Dave... but I will boycott Marvel tooth and nail.
I also hear from the Philly con that a great announcement was made that a 'big name writer" will be signed during the summer. guess who's contract runs out with DC in July. the slap in the face RBM gave quesada is apparently forgotten... I hope quesada likes eating shit, cuz that is what will be served very soon. I don't buy or consume crap any more. Bye bye marvel...
Chris still has Uncanny... but already the internet bullies have turned their sights on it... simply to force Claremont out. and this is just not right...when a few dictate the reading material for the many... and there is no diversity... then you know the end is near... or that bigotted anarchy will reign.
I am not gonna be around to watch it. I will take my money elsewhere for the first time in decades... and so will a lot of others.
The most recent Uncanny was little more than Chris trying to ctch up to what is happening in the X universe... with fire breathing editors standing over him whit a whip... and it shows. whole storylines dispatched with a panel... timelines compressed into a page. non storytelling... just to bring the storylines into pace with the House of M fiasco... which Marvel says will color the books for eighteen months! Well, I, for one, am not gonna read them. I will read House of M to see how bad it gets... and then leave if it is as bad as I think it will be for Mags.
That's all. done... gone. Like the good characterization of the past that these boyos cannot seem to comprehend, much less copy or emulate.
And, so, I fear, am I...for if RBM comes back, X ville will not be worth visiting. Planet Xcrement was enough, thank you verrrrrry much.

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Post by idsunki »

I do hope you aren't refering to those of us who aren't very big fans of Claremont's current work for intelligent and well-thought out reasons as the "internet bullies" that "have turned their sights on it."



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Post by Paty »

:mags
Oh, there's many things about the Excalibur run that aren't as good as they could be...and some of the stuff he is doing in Uncanny is ho hum... but how much of that is because he has to go along with everyone else.

Claremont gave Marvel the X universe. Plain and simple. Yeah, Stan did the original characters... but that was fairly shallow writing aimed at teenagers. and when Chris took over the new reboot, he, with Dave's help on some of the characterization, started a snowball rolling that didn't slow down until Hardass booted him out and took seventeen months to destroy what Chris had built ... successfully... for seventeen years!
The children writing now, can not seem to build on existing canon... they ignore it or actively destroy it.
In many respects, it is no longer the genre of the characters, it is the genre of the creators... and their worshipful followers...some of whom are far more intelligent than the "creator" they are following. some fans write better than some of the pros... and that's no lie. Some fans attribute to the muddled writings of some of these "creators" far more than is there. and the creators sit back and nod vacantly and say how brilliant their followers are so see the hidden meanings and nuances...that in reality are not there. It may make the fans feel good and erudite and special... and it puffs up the "creator" into more than he really is.

Internet bullies are the ones who flood the boards with praise for their ltittle tin god, don't talk about the stories, but talk about him... and turn every discussion to his direction whether he is part of the discussion or not. they literally bully people who want to talk about other things besides this one creator off the boards. Plot and storylines that have nothing to do with him get him inserted and the whole discussion waarped around to him... again and again.... until folk who just want to discuss the characters and stories get tired of the monologues and go elswhere.
It used to be that fans talked about characters and storylines and the plots of the books... now they talk about creators and their views and the characters and their core personalities have fallen by the wayside if some brainless creator decides he is gonna change things or stir the pot to see what slimes up from the bottom.
and longtime readers who grew up reading classic literature first and comic books as fantasy escapism instead of main reading material, are going elsewhere in disgust.

I like Chris. I know him personally and have interacted with him on a professional level. He can write well if given his head. He writes poorly when what and how he writes is dictated by others... which is the case right now at marvel. He had interesting plans for Excalibur that got yanked out from under him. I do not say that all he does is gold. Some of it I find terriblly dull. but by and large even the dull stuff is well written, when he is allowed to write it.
The last uncanny, for example, is not him writing... it is him trying to bring everything in line as quickly as he must to satisfy the editorial demands placed upon him. this is not how he writes. He writes intricate and well thoughtout plots. He makes whole stories of things that he had to cover or skip entirely with "...six months later..." that's not Claremont's writing!!! He never did shit like that. He told the stories cronologically... as they happened. That is chris being forced into a mold....being forced to toe the mark.

And if I were him, I would look for work elsewhere where my talents would be appreciated instead of the rats nest of jealousy that abounds at Marvel. but Chris loves the characters and will not abandon them until they push him out. He will fight for them as long as he can. He knows it's not about him... it's about the characters and their core personalities. and it's those core personalities, that other writers think they can screw with or warp out of all recognition that Chris values and wants to maintain. Us older readers who have followed the books for decades value that.

I don't frequent the other boards...my eyes won't allow me to do that much reading and I have no paience for it... or time. I have too many other things to do. ButI have correspondents who do and who keep me up to date with what's going on. they know the rhythms and patterns of the postings and can spot a "blitz" of "bully" postings in a heartbeat. If it weren't annoying, at best, it would be funny. But it's not funny. the bullies drive everyone else away cuz discussion on everythingh but the touted lord creator stops. sometimes people want to talk about the topic and fight back... and when things are going against the lord and master creator, the threads get shut down. wow... doesn't take a rocket scientist to see who the mods like, does it?
Just because people clam up and go away, doesn't mean they are stupid . sometimes it just means that the person has had enough and wasted enough time trying to get back on the original topic. the one thing bullying does do is to make it see like everyone out there agrees with the bullies... cuz no one is answering them or fighting with them. And this is a false evaluation of the situation. Older, more mature and well read readers just run out of patience arguing with children who only want to talk about the creator... not the characters...or the stories.

I would love to talk about the characters and the storylines... if there was anything left worth talking about any more. Which, sadly, there isn't...thanks to the depredations of "writers" who cannot write but only shock and destroy.

that's not storytelling... that's vandalism. Chris, at least, when allowed to do so, BUILT on former characterization and storylines. He didn't tear down another writer's work...he built on it. He didn't destroy characterizations for destruction's sake... he built on them. That's the mark of a good writer. He has respectid others and tried to work with the messes they have left...and they have not reespected his contributions to the genre or the particular mythos. what goes around, comes around... and sooner or later false gods are overthrown.

May take a while...Marvel's rife with stupidity these days...

Paty
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Post by Maelstrom »

Originally posted by Paty
The most recent Uncanny was little more than Chris trying to ctch up to what is happening in the X universe... with fire breathing editors standing over him whit a whip... and it shows. whole storylines dispatched with a panel...
I wondered what was going on there! I got mental whiplash from trying to follow everything at once. I felt like I was watching a clip show. In fact, I felt like I was watching a "when last we saw our heroes" montage for the past six episodes, even though I'd been following the matinee faithfully every Saturday. It was just surreal. Here I was, trying to decide whether I liked the whole Savage Land run or not (had some great things, had some lousy things), and I get smacked with a "Now Wolvie's gone rogue, and all these things have happened, and six months have passed". Marf??

Mind you, it's great to see Piotr again. (And especially back with Kitty, as I'm of the idea that the two of them really do belong together.) The artwork wasn't Davis', but that's not a mark against it. It was enjoyable, a good change of pace.

But just what went on behind the scenes, here? When Davis took the reigns, he and Chris started carefully sculpting relationships (romantic and otherwise) between Ororo, Logan, Kurt, and Rachel. They gave the hint that X-23 and Betsy would be woven in as well. Then, with one single information dump, it all goes away, wiped clean as if it never existed.

To have a storyline suddenly WRENCHED onto a different path entirely leaves me feeling confused, even resentful. Why? Because it's the worst case of "tell me, don't show me" that I've seen in a long while. Because I prize continuity between books, but prize it more from episode to episode. Because it assumes that the characters live in a vacuum, and that they can just completely ignore what went on before to focus in on what's happening now. Because this will drastically affect every single thing these characters have touched, either by admission or omission. Spin offs (like the other flavors of X-men, or Nightcrawler's series) will either have to pound this square peg into their round hole, or ignore it and risk more continuity woes as time goes on.

I don't think that's fair, to the readers or to the many creative teams that have to deal with it. Are writers just not communicating with each other, here? That whole "web of life" cliche comes to mind; you shouldn't do something that drastic without discussing it with the people whose storylines you're going to impact. At least give them some time to incorporate the change seamlessly. I mean, if four guys are each working solo on one face of a replica of Mount Rushmore, and one guy secretly decides he's going to carve Michelangelo's David, what choice do you have when you put it all together? You just have to accomidate the piece. You can do it by rearranging the whole scene, excluding the errant sculpture, or even scrapping the whole shebang, but for better or worse, it just ain't gonna be Rushmore.
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Post by Paty »

:mags
Hmmm... well, y'see... editorial at Marvel could simply NOT allow Claremont to continue with his storytelling in Excalibur. House of M was custom designed early on... no matter what we are told... to follow out of Avengers Disassemble...and glom off Magneto and destroy him. Millar, who came up with AD and, we suspect, House of M...even though Bendis is taking the fall for it... knew what he wanted from the very beginning. The reload and Avi Arad telling the east coast to shape up and bring the characters in line with the movies... which are Claremontean in essence...was a setback to the plans to destoy Magneto. they thought they had accomplished it by allowing Morrison's little temper tanturm, Planet Xcrement to be published. But Arad knew Magneto was too important to the mythos, and a member of the cast, to boot... and could not stomach what they had done...so he threw his weight around and made them reload.
but once Arad went west, the subversives started in on Magneto destruction plans again... and quite frankly, the only reasons that come to mind, are jealousy of Claremont's body of work, which they can never hope to emulate, much less surpass... and pure, vile anti semetism. Hardass started the Magneto pogrom and the"kewl" guys are continuing in his goosesteps.

Plans for interesting storylines had been anounced for Excalibur... and chris got them summerily yanked out from under him. Excalibur was cancelled while it was still selling well...and there is no excuse for that... except that they could not have let Chris continue to build the Xavier/Magneto relationship... and show Mags as a complex, reasonable man.

If you have read Claremont stories for long, you know he is meticulous in relationships and continuity...OK, maybe he slips up now and again, but YOU try to keep running storylines going for seventeen years and not forget ANYTHING! He doesn't jump around in thirty second sound bytes.... that is uniquely the trait of more modern "writers"... and I use that term very loosely, here. He usually has structure and intracicies... which we didn't get in the latest uncanny... and the only reason for this mish mosh can be that he was dictated to bring Uncanny into the timeline of House of M, no matter what... and is paddling literary water furiously to stay afloat...and try to please enough people to keep the browbeaters, both editorial and internet, from pusing him under for the last time. After all, he still has a family to support and he still loves the characters and will suffer these indignities to save as many of the characters he loves as he can from the vandals who want only to shock and destroy.
"When the fans scream, we know we are doing something RIGHT.." INDEED!???!!Quesada said that...I am told... and if he did, or if his senior editorial staff believe it, Marvel is in deep doggie doo doo.
Well... better they wallow in it than me.

But when you see a writer whom you have followed for years, if not decades, start writing out of character, you KNOW something is up. And what is up is House of M... and the little ratzi's big push to destroy the hated Jewish, holocaust survivor backstory that Chris gave Mags.

Don't expect anybody at Marvel to admit it... even Claremont. He knows when to keep his mouth shut...But his silence during the big House of M hype said volumes. Bendis touted Claremont as "cooperating"... but Claremont didn't say bupkus. the silence from him was deafening. Oh, yeah, he was busy.. he was offline.. he was doing other things...RIGHT!!! Claremont is not a hypocrite. Ef he couldn't say anything nice, he clammed up. that's his way. It usually means survival in hostile territory. And when Avi Arad divested himself of his shares last Dec., He lost clout in being able to tell the east coast asswipes what to do. and he was pro Claremont, acknowledging Chris's input and contribution to the X Mythos.
..understanding that if not for Claremont, there would BE no X Universe. zIP! Zero! NADA!!!
so when Claremont's protector lost clout, the ratzis struck. First Avengers Disassemble... then House of M, which AD set up very nicely... in fact, too nicely to be coincidental. AD was Millars's little idea... so you can extrapolate that he is behind House of M, too. these children are so filled with hubris that they think their machinations are transparent.... but some of us who are watching closely and seeing patterns of behavior that are verrrrrrrry familiar have made our bets and spoken our predictions.

I hope to whatever forgotten gods still listen that I am wrong. I really do. But I would bet the mortgage money that I am not. And that is sad.

When someone you know knows how to write, doesn't write...or writes completely out of character... then you know something is up... and if you mesh personalities, history and pure knowledge of the kind of office politics we know goes on at marvel... and HAS for over a decade...sometimes with less secrecy than now... you can extrapolate what is actually happening.

Now, as i said, if I am wrong, HALLEUJA!!!... but I will be more than distressed to say "I told ya so..." if I am right.

Marvel is not Camelot any more. It was when I started working there. That's why I readily travelled six and a half hours a day just to work there in the Bullpen. My husband of the time told me "Now, look....they pay YOU!!!" and he was perfectly serious. He knew I would gladly have paid to work there. LOL... Those were innocent, halcyon days... we had fun... we created stuff...we told stories!!! We traded ideas and character designs... we discussed the stories and characters in the hallways, walking down the streets, in the local irish pub or the japanese restaurant...we didn't have freakin' SECRETS!!! We talked to the fans and they talked to us..not yelled AT us.
Maybe the internet changed all that. Maybe it gave more people with agendas a soapbox to yell and scream...and influence what is done. Maybe we need a little less of it... cuz the people who yell the loudest seem to be wagging the dog... and they aren't necessarily the majority.

Or maybe I am just old fashioned enough to want good, thorough writing...good characterization and coherent storylines tha last more than four pages... with a minimum of blood, gore, murder and sex. PTUI!

I can find a modicum of what I want in other books... which is what i intend to do once Marvel has terminally pissed me off with House of M.

Paty
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Post by Shadow_Dancer »

I fully agree with both of you. The last story arc was NOT Claremont's idea. Several months ago he was interviewed about upcoming issues and he was quoted as saying that Uncanny #460 and 461 would feature Betsy and Kurt, and that Kurt would have a "life changing encounter". Your guess is as good as mine what he might have been cooking up, but there is no such thing in the #461 that was just released.

It was a horrible issue, I will not disagree with that. But I got the very distinct impression that the fault did NOT lie with Claremont himself.

What a pity. Amy, you're right. I feel cheated because an entire year of careful character building may have just been wrecked beyond repair right before our eyes, because supposedly months have now passed. How is he supposed to just realistically now jump in and take up where they left off? And it doesn't have to do just with the relationship I'd hoped to see between Kurt and Ororo, but that between Sage and Bishop, especially now that Sage is joining the new Excalibur. Rachel's feelings on the death of her mother are just stuffed in there somewhere in between the cracks. He never got the chance to develop those at all.

I feel like Marvel has just betrayed the faithful Uncanny readers by forcing Claremont into that narrow little trough, and I'm almost certain his days with Uncanny are numbered. I well understand Davis jumping ship, and not for the reasons I've seen given on other forums. I give him more credit than that. I wouldn't want to have editorial constantly mucking about with my ideas. It makes me wonder how much longer Claremont will tolerate it, although I'm glad he didn't take off along with Davis.

I was so excited to have Uncanny returned to comic books I used to read, even if I was accused of being "old fashioned" and outdated. Give me back the FUN escapist comics of the seventies and eighties, or I'll gladly spend my money elsewhere.
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Post by idsunki »

Please stop refering to people you dislike as nazis.

I don't ask this as a moderator, as I'm not one, but as a person.

Unless you have evidence of them helping with or condoning the genocide of the Jewish, Romanian, and other minority peoples, please do not use the term 'nazi.'

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Post by Paty »

:mags
Ha! why sholdn't I call them that? they have proved over the pas decade their devotion to erasing Magneto's Jewish heritage... for no appreciable reason!!! they have targeted him and Kitty Pryde, especially, turning Kitty's star of David into first a filigree and then a pentacle...in a blatant attempt to destroy the jewish connection. Evidence from staffers at the time spoke of Hardass interviewing possible employees by asking them what their views on Magneto were!!!!!! If they answered that he wasn't jewish or was a rat bastard, then they got the job. If they liked Claremont's version, they didn't. Excuse me... but even to my blind old eyes, that's seeding the company with those of your ilk.
Magneto wasn't the only casualty,either... there has been a steady depletion of strong women and ethnic characters...gee... women can't control great power! Everyone knows that! women are stupid and emotional and weak oand oly fit to wear bustiers and wave their legs in the air! PTUI! I have heard that Bishop may be returned to his own continuum...but we shall see on that...although I wouldn't doubt it at all, given the tenor that Marvelhas fostered over the past decade or so.
No, kiddo... I am sorry. Their actions over time speak louder than any protests they may make to the contrary. We are informed that when Millar brought up Avengers Disassemble to the editorial meeting, there was a lot of people disturbed and unhappy with it... who vehemently protested it...but he pushed it through. Why? stupid plot since wanda's powers have been traditionally to warp possibilities, not reality and that her kids were done outside her control to begin with. But her posers HAD to be made those of warping REALITY to make this whole miserable plot work... and AD had to work to set up House of M with it's supreme goal of removing Magneto's backstory or at the very least, returning him to ratbastardy.
I have not called them little neo nazis, which I really really want to do ... cuz I have no concrete proof of membership or outward declarations of such sentiments. but rats thaey are. and with the decidedly anti semetic bent shown blatantly in the last decade, ratzis seems a relevant compromise.
To me, the destruction they have wrought at marvel with their little subversive agendas... grabbing off characters in mid development, forcing writers to write in certain ways to toe the mark... so blatantly that even talented writers like Claremont cannot hide the tampering...smacks of the kind of coercion and heavy handedness of totalitarian governments.
Now, editorial should not have this kind of power. Yes, they should safeguard the characters...not let weird and whacked out writers do anything they want...because the characters are valuable merchandisable property that doesn't belong to the weird writers... but they should not be dictating storylines to those same writers! That's where Marvel is going wrong and giving the editors star status and power to monkey with stuff. Editors are a quality control... not behind the scenes propagandists dictating to writers. This fact seems to have been lost completelly at Marvel...and it will be it's downfall.
Now, having been born during the war years... WWII, that is, and having grown up in the fifties, I do have an historical connection to that era. I think it is an inportant one because I see the bigotted rise of naziesque tenets spreading in this country. The Hudson valley was rife with nazi sentiment...and KKK chapters. Their grandparents should be rolling in their graves!!! Because we are obviously too stupid to LEARN from the past... so we must be bound to repeat it.
the incursion of subliminal bigotry into the comics is real. ethinic diversity, once a proud tenet of Marvel, is disappearing. Oh, they'll keep a couple harmoess or very popular characters around, like Storm... to point to to deny their agendas... that's a given. They just offed Northstar...the only openly gay superdoop... and the outcry from the gay readers was so overwhelming that I have heard they brought him back and said it was just a joke! Bullshit! It was too blatant a move and the public called them on it and they had to backpedal really fast. They thought it was "funny"???!!! Geez, what else do they think is funny? It wasn't funny... it was a slip-up. too blatant a move. Ya gotta do it subtly and slip it past the suckers...and before you know it they won't realize what you have done...it has to belogical..not just slipped in because you can't stand the character any more.
The trick here is that they try to kill off the characters they don't like. They don't send them away ...for another writer to use later... because they cannot abide the tenets of the character! They don't want anyone to use certain characters and possiblly portray them as good, likable characters. It's a sneaky way of doing things... and believe me, I have seen sneaky and not only know it personally, having had it practiced on ME at MARVEL... but having seen it practiced on others! fortunately, of course, noone in comics ever stays dead permanantly,... except Bucky Barns!!! LOL
"Ratzi" was the term used by the fighters of WWII to describe the genocidal killers that were Nazis! and it is, as I explained to another correspondant in another venue, very specific to a mindset that , if not card carrying natzism, is decidedly bent that way. while I cannot call them Naxis wihout proof of membership in that disgusting cadre... they are acting like little rats with a decidedly naziesque bent... so "ratzis" it is... at least to me. I call 'em as I see 'em, kiddo. If I have learned one thing in my sixteen years as a firefighter, it's that where there is smoke... or a smokescreen... there's usually a fire. And the fire deep in their smarmy little hearts is hatred and bigotry...aimed at ethnic groups and women, whom they see as sex kittens or bitches... but not as real people.

There are a few writers, like Claremont, left over from the old days of diversity, that are still trying to bring some sanity to the books. Peter David comes to mind, as well . Oh, gosh, He's jewish, too...and they tried to push him out, too...a while back. He fought back. Pubically, in his forum. they backed off. Claremont is not a fighter. He wants to be liked... to go along... to write good stories with characters he loves and invented in the first place!!! but how he can stomach what is happening...especially to Magneto... is beyond me. I guess it is called survival. I hope he is looking at other venues, though...cuz even if they have given him a three year contract, working there will have to be hell for him considering the lack of respect he has been shown since he returned... and especially with regards to Excalibur and Magneto.
Nah, kiddo... you may not remember nazism and it's aftermath... but I do...and so do a lot of people living in America who lost friends and relatives to that "nonexistant" terror. Yeah... there are people who say it never happened!!! Believe that? it's true! so if you don't watch for the subtle beginning signs, it can happen again. teach subliminal bigotry to kids through comic books and you foster your ideals under the noses of parents who know better...and you have a whold generation of people who think it is OK to have only white christian superdoops... and that incursions by other ethnic types is unAmerican!
Think it can't happen here? Honey, take the blinders off...it's already happening... and has been for over a decade! They are just getting bolder. Planet X was right up their alley... but it was TOO blatant and the outcry was loud....shouted down, though by the followers of Morrison who thought it was just peachy keen. A holocaust survivor... a sonderkommando who created crematoria! Gimme a break! House of M will most probably be another , more subtle step in the degradation of that pesky holocaust survivor... or, wonder of wonders, a maeans to wipe out that pesky history altogether!
It's blatant, kiddo... and when it's that blatant, yeah... they deserve the designation!

Paty
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Post by Bamfette »

Paty, you've been warned. calling people Nazi's (or ratzis) is just unacceptable. and please back up any assertions you make with PROOF. we have rules about both being disrespectuful and unsubstantiated claims.

and frankly, this argument is getting old. if Marvel as a whole was anti-semetic, why would they do things like publish that X-Men Unlimited with Kitty doing Jewish mourning prayers, with the Star of David displayed prominently throughout, or making Ben Grimm Jewish, etc? it's ridiculous.

pages from X-Men unlimited #38, published maybe... 2 years ago?

http://www.darickr.com/subs/xmen7.html
http://www.darickr.com/subs/xmen10.html
http://www.comicscontinuum.com/stories/0209/07/u3.htm

that candle is displayed on nearly all the pages of the story. the story is called "Yartzeit" for crying out loud.

and about the Thing: http://www.forward.com/issues/2002/02.07.26/fast1.html

you're talking about things that happened twenty years ago. Isn't it possible that Marvel may have... oh, i dunno... changed? also, isn't it possible that Excalibur was canceled because lately it was sitting in the fifties in terms of sales, selling roughly 40,000, and dropping thousands of readers a month? here's a breakdown from here http://www.icv2.com/articles/news/1850.html #1 - 71,757(+3500 reorders), #2 - 59,791, #3 - 57,740, #4 - 56,153, #5 - 53,776, #6 - 48,410, #7 - 44,753, #8 - 42,440, #9 41,187, #10 - 37,589, #11- 37,325... dunno about you, but form a financial perspective, that does not look good. you can expect some drop off from a typical #1, but it was consistently bleeding readers. and in that case, it would be considered a small sacrafice for a numbers-boosting company wide crossover. especially because Excalibur was supposed to be on par with the core books. it probably got the axe as soon as it dipped past 40,000. And if they were truly against your preferred portrayal of Magneto, they wouldn't have started the series in the first place. they woud be *consistently* portraying him as evil, not going back and forth depending on the wants of the writer. I dunno the reasons behind House of M, but I doubt it was in any way a intentional attempt to spite readers. Marvel does some illogical things, but not to that extent. sure some fans will be pissed, but that will happen no matter what. they're doing something you don't like to your favorite character so you villify the entire company... :rolleyes and to cut you off at the pass, no i am not some mindless Morrison drone. I do not read everything he writes, nor do i think everything he's done is flawless. I liked some of his X-Men stories, and disliked others. same goes for Bendis, for that matter.

Marvel is far from perfect, they do many things i disagree with. but there are limits to reasonable criticism.

now can we please get back to discussing Uncanny, and not Magneto, which should be in the thread about Excalibur?
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Post by Jeremys Iron »

Originally posted by Paty
They just offed Northstar...the only openly gay superdoop... and the outcry from the gay readers was so overwhelming that I have heard they brought him back and said it was just a joke! Bullshit!
Completely and utterly untrue; have you even read the story?

It was totally obvious from the second Northstar was killed that he was going to be brought back. He was killed by Wolverine who was being controlled by the Hand. Now, let me ask you, what is it that the Hand does? That's right! They bring people back from the dead. In fact that was the main thrust of the story - Wolverine (brainwashed) killing superheroes for the Hand so they could bring them back under their control. So it's plainly obvious that Northstar's return was planned from the beginning. Not to mention that, ya know, the writer of the story, Mark Millar has stated on his website that that was the plan all along and that he has always been quite fond of the character.

Plus, he came back, like, the next issue which is not enough time for it to have been from fan pressure. JRjr is fast but not that fast.

I don't want to be rude but is this the quality of all the 'facts' you present in your rants? Could you perhaps provide some independent corroboration for your bold assertions? I hate to be a pain but you know that old line, "Fool me once shame on you, Fool me twice..."

On a related note, Warren Ellis has recently spoken about his current relationship with Marvel and he has said nothing but good things. The editors are letting him do what he wants with a minimum of interference and Warren seems much too cantankerous to put up with it any other way.

But then, that’s just my opinion I might be wrong. ;)
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Post by idsunki »

I may not have been born in the war era, or been alive in the 50s and the Red Scare, but I do know my history. Only one more semester and I'll have another fancy piece of calligraphy on my wall to prove it.

The term 'ratzi' came about as a mix of 'rat' and 'nazi,' sort of like Paty's name for Bob Harass, 'Hardass.' There is no real distinction between the terms. Calling someone a ratzi is no different from calling them a nazi.

That is all.

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Post by Paty »

:mags
a moment of clarity here. there has been something going on that I was totallynot aware of and which has colored my responses for the past year.
About a month ago or so, my sis, boo hauled my ass to the doc's to get a checkup. Now, I am never sick. Dave is... not me. In the past almost thirty years I have had the flu and mayb an infectionfrom the birdies a ouple of times and every time, since we didn't have health insurance as freelancers, I climbed into bed and told my body "get well or die" and that happened... it got well. Healing factor I guess... Anyway, since I am getting up there at sixty three...I figured a bone density scan might be appropriate, since my ma had osteoporsis and neither of us ate dairy products...being lactose intolerant . In the course of doing the bone density crap, the doc drew blood for a check on my vitals...and found...lo and behold... a discrepancy in my thyroid output. It was high... dramatically so. OK...most people have LOW thyroid output and have to take a med called synthroid for it. the lack of proper amounts of hormone makes you fee dull and lethargic and makes you gain weight. but Hyper thyroidism... that's a whole different ball of wax. so the doc wanted to do a lot of tests... a sonogram showed a lump or nodule on the thyroid... so they had to check it out to see what was happening. I had to swallow this radioactive pill and let it settle for twenty four hours...wher it settled would tell them if the nodule were hot... or cancerous...or cold...benign. OK... took the pill... spent a very uncombortable hour being scanned. You know what happens when the doc points a THING at your unprotected neck, tells you not to MOVE and goes away for twenty five minutes??? YOU ITCH!!! in places and so feircely that you want to kill!!! lol... BUT YOU CANNOT SCRATCH! Thank goddess that I went to the john, preventing the other complication of being told NOT to MOVE!!!
Anyway, the upshot of the whole thing was that no... I didn't have a cancerous thyroid. But I DID have one that was pumping thyroid hormone at an alarming and unstoppable rate... doing all sorts of things to my body, from making me hurt all over, to possibly being a causitive factor in the blindness, to blowing my emotions to hell and gone. And the thyroid was growing...pumping ever more crap into my system!!! I had been reacting ways that were alien to me and i had rationalized them by saying I had just lost patience or had emotional trauma, what with the blindness' frustrations and Dave's health and mom's death and the move and all that stuff. Now these are all rational explanations for me getting snarfier and snarfier and snapping at people and such. But that was not really the cause! and I didn't even know it until this past week!
What happened was that the radiologist was so alarmed at the sixe of the thyroid and the amount of "master hormone" it was pumping out that he recommended to the doc a radical procedure. Not surgery... it wasn't cancerous. But killing the thyroid with a massive dose of radiation! Hm...didn't sound good... but when they explained to me that the rampaging thyroid would kill me...and not nicely... very soon, I guessed that it was ME or THYROID!!! so we opted to off the thyroid. That "not nicely..." thing will get ya every time, y'know?
three days of sour stomach, cuz the dose of radiation was massive. Then, the appetite came back... the mood lightened, the bod stopped hurting... the emotions swung a one eighty and I was feeling like my old self again... something I had not felt in ...YEARS!!! I have always been feisty, but never belligerant... and I had been getting belligerant with everything and everyone! I had posted posts I knew would stir a hornets nest...and they did... and I hadn't cared!!! And that was soooooooooo not me! I didn't realize HOW not me until the thyroid hormone went away!!!
Geez!
Now... this hormone output didn't affect my ability to understand data... to deduce things from miniscule clues... to put two and two together... so I haven't changed any of my opinions. But it did make me the mellow, calm, more rational person I once was... lo these several years agone.
I knew I was reacting badly and beligerently... and I didn't care. I chalked it up to grumpy old age and frustration and emotional trauma... and it was none of the above. I would post posts and tell myself as I pushed the post reply button...you really shouldn't DO this... but I would do it anyway! totally unlike me. I had always been even tempered and good natured...whom you neve heard complain...no... wait... that's Magneto...
Um...LOL... ueah... but it was me, too. I understood Mags... I like him... and I hate what they are gonna do to him.So I was belligerant about it...not only because I had had enough of their puerile crap... but because the hormone was really doing a number on my emotions. Even Dave and Boo were worried about me and how I was reacting to things happening here at home. Not my usual style at all!
They probably thought i was going nuts! Well, at times I was beginning to think I was, too...
So mondo apologies to any I have offended by being belligerant. I do not change my opinions of what is happening at Marvel. Ithink that Marvel is like a barrel full of lovely , edible ripe apples of fantasy entertainment. But ddeep underneath there a few rotten ones and these, if allowed to fester, will poison the whole barrel. Yes, we see the shining, edible fruit on top... but those of us with noses to smell, scent the decay... and see the noxious flies buzzing. there is something very rotten at Marvel that needs to be rooted out before the whole barrel goes bad. My sources are good and impeccable. I am told by one I respect and who I know has the best of information...cuz he still works there on occasion... that I was wise to get out when I did... cuz it got awful there and is still going south. Not Camelot any longer...more the underbowls of Gotham.
the House of Ideas isn't any more. everything's recycled and warped and called "new" and "innovative".
Y'know something? I don't care any more. I know exactly the terminology I use. and yes, I used it deliberately... because I believe it is true. History buffs and educated people got the reference... I had to explain it to others... I was mad at marvel for a lot of things they have done for the past decade and are still doing, obviously.
since the hormone level has dropped, I no longer care. We who love him, will keep the Claremontean Magneto in our hearts and maybe on our own private website... which we are planning... and Marvel can go to hell in a handbasket for all of me. If they destroy his backstory, I am gone, cuz he was the only reason i was wading through the mounds of drek that have come out of marvel recently.
Wolverine I have always disliked... I do not read his book. I only knew of the death of Northstar from correspondants... who were outraged...not at death itself, but at the stupid storyline that achieved that death... The Hand@ indeed! Gimme a break! the interchange that took Millar to task was on Millarworld, I believe, wherein a gay reader told Millar it was not a good thing to monkey with the emotions of readers in so cavalier a manner as to make a "joke" of the death of a character...when Millar admitted just such sentiments. I trust my correspondant who reported it. My eyes are not good enough to go to all these boards with their incomprehensible spiderwriting fonts of black type on gray backgrounds or yellow type on orange or gold backgrounds or such. Just cannot do it any more. so I trust the people I talk to who have been fighting the good fight for the soul of Magneto for over a decade... all the way back to the Hardass years...where this mess all started.
Ellis hails back to that era. He will have nothing but good to say of those of his own ilk, don't you know? Gee... I am not even gonna worry about what he will do...or what he thinks.... after House ofM, if they destroy the Magneto of canon, the complex adversary, the rational man who has problems with his power when the magnetic flux surges... like sunspots... they could overload him seriously...they warp the whole magnetosphere when they hit earth!!! ...then I am gone. won't have a thing to say cuz i won't be reading the books.
that's all. apologies to all I have offended with my belligerance. No apologies to those I have offended with my deductions. I stand by them...until I see differently...until I am proven wrong... not by arguments...I don't believe anything they say any more... but by actions. their actions will speak so loudly, as they have in the past... that I will not be able to hear what they SAY. Marvel has lied to the fans before... telling them one thing and doing the exact opposite and then laughing at the response...or being surprised and hurt when the response turned ugly against them... as it did with Avengers disassemble.

Maybe it is just getting over the hump with the hormone... maybe it is just finally realizing that it is only comic books and if it warps the minds of kids of this generation, that I will be gone and not have to deal with it. Y'know, that's a biggie of being old! LOL... You see shit down the road...you ain't gonna have to deal with the fallout or wade through it... Holocausts revisited or race wars? Hopefully not in my time...but i wouldn't rule it out.
Oh,well... won't be MY problem.
Have fun...
Paty
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Post by Executive Administrator »

Paty -

I appreciate your candidness with the above post and thank you for apologising for those you have offended with your name calling. It is appreciated by all of the admins and mods here.

Please remember though that posting unsubstanstiated rumors is against the rules at this board so your deductions, while interesting, must have facts to back them up. I wish you luck with your Magneto website and feel free to post links to it here as you fight the good fight.

Wishing you and Dave the best of Health -

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Post by Paty »

:mags
Well...I have always said that if I screw up, I fess up! And I do. LOL...I have been a real harridan both online and at home and Dave and Boo are breathing a sigh of total relief these days. Me too... I was not liking what I was becoming but had no idea what was really causing it... and couldn't seem to stop it. Now I know... so you guys who suffered should know too!

I still hold my opinions and will stick by them until they are proven wrong... which I do not expect them to be... but I will probably not be frantic about them any more...LOL... I am that much calmer and more centered. That frenzied weirdness really wasn't me...and I had no way of stopping it! Totally frightening!!! If you ever get belligerant out of character, and cannot seem to control yourself no matter how much you really want to... have your thyroid levels checked immediately!!! We don't even know how long it had been going on...sigh...

OK... back to business... I will certainly let the board know if we get the Magneto site up and running...probably over at the GRAND MAGNETO THREAD at Cockrum Corner.

Back to the thread topic... Does anyone dislike MOJO as much as I do? Now, THERE'S a villain for ya! Hated him the first time round, hate him even worse now...OY!
Whatcha think...anyone???

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Post by Maelstrom »

I've always seen Mojo as kind of a "comedy relief" villain. He's incredibly uber-powerful, disobeys the laws of physics at his whim, but lives with such a psychotically rigid mindset that he gives himself truly crippling limitations.

I'm reminded of the famous "hacksaw and handcuffs" scene of Who Framed Roger Rabbit? "Do you mean you could have slipped out of those cuffs at any time?!" "Only when it was funny!"

Jesus, that's it! Mojo is just a big ol' toon! :doh!

I didn't really mind the last episode. It was fun, it was light. [spoiler] It had been done before, yes: Mojo seems to love turning adults into kids and vice-versa. But it was played strictly for the yucks, and the art was good. I could have done without some of Juggy's blubbering, personally. I guess they figured had to put some kind of angst into it, or we'd forget we were in an Xmen franchise. Basically, whenever Mojo gets involved, you know things are going to take a serious right-turn into ludicrosity. Sort of like Excalibur's Crazy Gang did at first, and then happened with Technet.

Aside from the obligatory angst, I felt a bit cheated with Emma's "leave him to me: he'll NEVER bother us again" bit on the last panel. Maybe if they'd built it up differently, different paneling, like what they did with Kitty. That one solo shot of her with the nasty grin gave you mental breathing room to stop and think of all the HORRIBLE things a phaser could do, especially to a cybernetic creature like Mojo. But Emma didn't get that treatment, and her threat rang hollow. Because we KNOW Mojo will be back. That's his damned job.[/spoiler]

Personally, I loathe Arcade (and Viper) more than Mojo. They also deal with ridiculous deathtraps, gadgetry, and so on, but it's supposed to be serious with them. It's supposed to be dark and scary behind all those circus tents. You can't make something like that too serious. You need that "wink and nod" to suspend your disbelief. Otherwise you start thinking about how much money it takes to do stuff like that, and how much the rest of the world's governments would want you dead, and how hard it is to make deathtraps work in the real world, yatta, yatta, yatta....

Considering the sudden "plot wrench" we just went through, it's pretty plain that they were just using the last issue, and this one, as "filler" until they could coordingate this whole "House of M" thing. I expected nothing else, so once I sat back with the popcorn it was pretty amusing. Shows you how much I follow everything: I thought the "M" meant "Magneto". :oops:

Does anyone know what overarcing, multi-line story this House of M will be? We're not getting another Secret Wars, are we?

By the way, Patty, I wish you would have let me know about your big, overactive thyroid before you fried it to hell and gone. My thyroid's been underactive for years, and I could have used the donation.... :toothy
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Post by Paty »

:mags
Um... so is Boo's...LOL... and I am not sure how the "donation" thing would have worked... I AM a married gal, y'know...ahem...
but the deed is done...thyroid est mort! Now all we gotta do is wait for the body to stabilize without ANY hormone!!!
OK, mods! If I start acting weird...um...weirder than usual... um...no that doesn't work either... you guys have never seen "normal" for me... um...


um...

nevermind...

sigh...I shall try not to destroy the board in the six week interim until my next checkup...

but for those of you who might be interested, Dave, boo and I will be at heroes Con incharolette this weekend!!! So we hope to see some of you there!
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...hmmm House of Mojo... I like it!!! From your lips...
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Post by LadyErin »

Originally posted by Paty

...hmmm House of Mojo... I like it!!! From your lips...
Oh! Please, oh please....

*now has to figure out which God/dess I am supossed to pray to for that...*
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

I personally think Mojo's great- at least in concept-

Think about it- he's a character created in the 80's who reflected the reality TV boom of the 21st century. He's a villain ahead of his time who could now be put to some amazing use.....
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Post by Paty »

:mags
Oh, I have no problem with his villainy...LOL...But he's GROSS!!! Not the mounds and mounds of blubber... I know people who look much like that and they are wonderful people... but those THINGS holding his eyes and mouth, and for all we know, other orifices, open eeewwwww... and the "Joker-esque grin"...ewwwwwwwwwww...and those spidery tihings under his truncated torso...ewwwwwww... and how the hell does he take a leak? ewwwwwwwwww...and the techno shit going into pores and orifices and such... eeewwwwwwwww...
GROSS... totally GROSS!!!
I don't like smiling villains... like Arcade...or Mojo... or the slimy smile of Cassandra Nova... eeeewwwwwwwwwwwww...
I like my villains suave and debonaire and yummy...I like complexity and geneteelness as they defeat you ... not moustache twirling levity...right... mojo doesn't have a moustache.. but you know what i mean...

I think I take my superdoops too seriously for that kind of campy mayhem. If a Mojo were to appear in real life he would be in the crosshairs of my .303 Savage post haste, and I would have no qualms aboutr offing him immediately... before he could even get a demented word out!!!There are SOME creatures that NEED to b killed...
Mojo and Arcade are right up there on my hit list!
But that's just me... I like Spiral as a villain... she has possibilities... but Mojo is a waste of good trees to me...Arcade too... maybe it is the grins...oog...

I do agree that a look ... no matter how stern or "you ain't gonna like what I can do to you" ... wouldn't encourage me to comply with the wishes of anyone, much less the people I am fighting. As long as the X people were in kid form, he had them over a barrel... they couldn't do really bad things to him, even if they wanted to.. cuz they needed the kids to be adults again!!! Arcade wouldn't have let a technicality like that get by him! The switch back was too ..."bloop"... done!!!
but I am sure, also , that Chris had no choice in what or how these last issues leading into House of M went... so, yeah... interim issues to be taken at face value or ignored majorly... If I never see Mojo again it will be too soon...triplicate for Arcade... that's just irrational mayhem. I am not into irrational mayhem...having a surfiet of it in my own life of late...

Since Uncanny should continue through the House of M debacle, it will be interesting seeing what jigs Claremont will have to dance to keep current with the storyline.. or he may opt to take his cast elsewhere until it is all over...we shall see...

Paty
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Post by kladyelf »

1. Hi Paty! *hugs* glad you're feeling your old self again - my mum's side of the family has a thyroid thingy too - *ALL* of them so it probably means that i may too *sticks fingers in ears Lalalalalalalaaah i don't wanna know!!!!!!*

2. I am such a sad lil' fangirl - i don't have the issue other than previews but i'm really enjoying seeing the X-babies again (even if it was de-aged X-men and not the Mojoworld constructs)
Tho' I have to admit I thought Mojo was dead for a while there - the miniApocalypse bumping him off along with Longshot (unless that Exiles issue whose-number-i-can't-remember is chronologically correct - meaning that 'Shotty isn't dead, just imprisoned)

3. And the non-de-aging of Betsy only *proves* to me that she was resurrected and a construct of her brother Jamie, no reality diddling can affect a construct/projection if the projector is somewhere else right?
What's everyone's thoughts on the subject?

4. I don't mind Mojo and company, i can take or leave them really... it can be fun bringing back old villains for fans just so they can go "woo!" but you have to give the villains *purpose* you can't just have them wandering around going "Okay, so what is my motivation dahhling?" (I dare everybody to pick a villain to say that - eg: Sabretooth) :D
Otherwise you start thinking about how much money it takes to do stuff like that, and how much the rest of the world's governments would want you dead, and how hard it is to make deathtraps work in the real world, yatta, yatta, yatta....
5. Dang, i already think about that... but then i think too much :D
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Post by Paty »

:mags
No...no...no...dearies... Fantasy is fantasy... it doesn't TAKE money to do ANYTHING!!! grab a space shuttle! construct an X plane that can fly to the moon! Rebuild the mansion gazillion times in two weeks each...tops! rebuild tokyo a gazillion times, for that matter...LOL... Clean up tons of radioactive lizard shit!!!

don't cost a dime and is done overnight to boot!

I mean... look at how fast Storm's hair grows, for god's sake!! One minute she has a mohawk that is short and curly... the next minute it is fifteen inches and waving in the breeze and the next minute it is a full head of hair again...no growout time for those bald sides...Yay! I love it! Hair grows faster in the comics than anywhere in the universe!!!

It's fantasy...no budget!!! got that??? OK...Magneto took all the natzi gold and diversified... he's the wealthiest man on the face of the planet... and no one knows it! Hmmm... and he's a batchelor to boot! Now, where are the paparazzi when you want them???!!!
And Chuckie cheeze...gee! He's gotta run a close second considering how many times he has rebuilt that mansion ... with it's "secret" underground complexes and it's production line of planes, cars etc...

It's fantasy... no budget!!! It is the primary suspension of disbelief! The science is nothing to the BUDGET!!! One can believe in technology up the wazoo... you know that ol' Chinese river, the Wazoo? Gadgetry all the way UP it!!! But the BUDGET!!! Ahhhh , there's the rub! whether it is nobler in the pocket to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous budgetry...or to simply fold our comic books and slink away silently into the dreary unimaginative dark... There's the question!

So the simple truth of comics is...THERE IS NO BUDGET!!!...Nor do hair, boobs or muscles grow at normal rates! Everyone has a healing factor a gazillion times better than normal, cuz time in the comic universe is compressed and warped anyway... Wolvie's is just faster than anyone else's...and there is no BUDGET!!! Can't stress that enough!!!
No budget... and Magneto has never destabilized the unstable molecules of the clothing to leave his enemies nekkid as jaybirds and win the day with em-bare ass-ment!!!

No one understands the nuances of fantasy anymore...sigh...

LOL
Paty
:mags
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Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Post by Slarti »

Originally posted by kladyelf
3. And the non-de-aging of Betsy only *proves* to me that she was resurrected and a construct of her brother Jamie, no reality diddling can affect a construct/projection if the projector is somewhere else right?
What's everyone's thoughts on the subject?
Sounds reasonable to me. I've been wondering about that in the last few issues I've been catching up on. She keeps seeing those fashes of Jamie (who is creepy as hell, BTW) AND her telepathy no longer works because she doesn't really have a mind of her own, IMO. I really doubt Betts is really back.
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Post by Maelstrom »

Originally posted by kladyelf
3. And the non-de-aging of Betsy only *proves* to me that she was resurrected and a construct of her brother Jamie, no reality diddling can affect a construct/projection if the projector is somewhere else right?
What's everyone's thoughts on the subject?
:scratch That's an interesting side. I hadn't even *considered* that as a possibility, but in retrospect it makes more sense than a lot of things. Otherwise, I have to wonder just what the hell Jamie is doing wandering around like that. At first he seemed to just be a cheap way out of careful scripting, but if they've got this overarcing reason for Betsy's existence, based on Jamie's psychosis, I'll have to tip my hat to whoever thought it up.

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Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Post by Shadow_Dancer »

Oh, now that's something I hadn't considered either, that Psylock's return may be part of an elaborate illusion.

We know Jamie's been monkeying with things here and there. I just hope Marvel doesn't yank the reigns of Uncanny yet again and hand them over to someone else before we get to know exactly what's really happening in the background of all this.

I wish people would give Claremont more of a chance than they have been with this run. They are just too quick to make spot judgments as to where a storyteller is going. I want to see it played out completely. Chances may be that later on we might all be saying "Oh yeah, now I get it." :doh!


Originally posted by Paty
Everyone has a healing factor a gazillion times better than normal, cuz time in the comic universe is compressed and warped anyway... Wolvie's is just faster than anyone else's...
Not to mention how many times each of the X-Men has been knocked unconscious. Realistically speaking, they should all be suffering from major brain damage.
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Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

Originally posted by Paty
:mags
Oh, I have no problem with his villainy...LOL...But he's GROSS!!! Not the mounds and mounds of blubber... I know people who look much like that and they are wonderful people... but those THINGS holding his eyes and mouth, and for all we know, other orifices, open eeewwwww... and the "Joker-esque grin"...ewwwwwwwwwww...and those spidery tihings under his truncated torso...ewwwwwww... and how the hell does he take a leak? ewwwwwwwwww...and the techno shit going into pores and orifices and such... eeewwwwwwwww...
GROSS... totally GROSS!!!
I don't like smiling villains... like Arcade...or Mojo... or the slimy smile of Cassandra Nova... eeeewwwwwwwwwwwww...
I like my villains suave and debonaire and yummy...I like complexity and geneteelness as they defeat you ... not moustache twirling levity...right... mojo doesn't have a moustache.. but you know what i mean...

I think I take my superdoops too seriously for that kind of campy mayhem. If a Mojo were to appear in real life he would be in the crosshairs of my .303 Savage post haste, and I would have no qualms aboutr offing him immediately... before he could even get a demented word out!!!There are SOME creatures that NEED to b killed...
Mojo and Arcade are right up there on my hit list!
But that's just me... I like Spiral as a villain... she has possibilities... but Mojo is a waste of good trees to me...Arcade too... maybe it is the grins...oog...

I do agree that a look ... no matter how stern or "you ain't gonna like what I can do to you" ... wouldn't encourage me to comply with the wishes of anyone, much less the people I am fighting. As long as the X people were in kid form, he had them over a barrel... they couldn't do really bad things to him, even if they wanted to.. cuz they needed the kids to be adults again!!! Arcade wouldn't have let a technicality like that get by him! The switch back was too ..."bloop"... done!!!
but I am sure, also , that Chris had no choice in what or how these last issues leading into House of M went... so, yeah... interim issues to be taken at face value or ignored majorly... If I never see Mojo again it will be too soon...triplicate for Arcade... that's just irrational mayhem. I am not into irrational mayhem...having a surfiet of it in my own life of late...

Since Uncanny should continue through the House of M debacle, it will be interesting seeing what jigs Claremont will have to dance to keep current with the storyline.. or he may opt to take his cast elsewhere until it is all over...we shall see...

Paty
:mags
Hmm... looking through an X-Men coffee-table-book, I think I've found a version of Mojo who may be more to your liking....

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