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Post by Paty »

:magneto

Well, to be honest, Marvel seems to be going crazy lately. destroying popular icons, killing off popular characters and when the fan outcry is humongous, having to bring them back... and sometimes this is done well and sometimes it is NOT. Just depends on what asswipe is doing the job.


But Joey announced ar the recent Chicago
Con that the next eighteen months of fallout of House of M will be Marvel Comics by committee. an Editorial committee will decide where Marvel goes from here... issuing storylines and plots that the writers must follow. Which means no diversity, no brilliance and no common sense.

Groupthink is the stagnation of the creative force. All these little "in" editors sit around throwing out ideas and patting themselves on the back with responses like "Hey... that's a GREAT idea!!! " or "Let's do THIS or THAT...it'll make the fans squirm!" With no regard for what they are doing to well loved and established characters. They are so full of themselves that they think they can do no wrong. And if J the Q mollifies the higher ups with lies, then THEY don't know enough to stop him... which is why I say to write to Isaac Perlmutter, Avi Arad and allen Fine. If enough fans get letters coming in to these people to protest an action... like for instance, the killing off of Nightcrawler...or sending him into the limbo of non use... then maybe they will do something to stop it. But if no one tells them... and I mean multiple letters,people ... form every one of you! keeping on top of the rumors and explaining to the bigwigs what they need to know...that this is one of their most popular characters and if he is discarded in any manner, they will not only lose your bucks, but everyone you can convince to abandon Marvel products! If you have been a fan for years, or even better, DECADES... and spent lots of moooney supporting the company, by all means tell them that! Also tell them you won't be the only one's boycotting Marvel if this character is damaged in any way... either through "death" or disuse.... or MIS use, either.

The fact that Kurt looks very demonic but is an angel in nature is a complexity lost on the shallow boyos at Marvel. Just as the complex Magneto is lost on them and to them. These shallow children do NOT want to deal with complex characters...that is patently clear to us Magophiles...and has been for years. Now, however, it is impacting other major characters... and the fans of those characters better speak up in VOLUMES if they want tosave their faves... cuz the record of theQuesada administration is not good when it comes to protecting the core charqacters or complex characters.

This is what i have been railing about for the last two or three years. The destruction of core characers. devolving of Scott into self pity, drunkeness and adultery...the demonization of Mags and the destruction of the wonderful complexity that Claremont gave him....the introduction and angelization of nasty sluts like Emma Frost... and the evolution of costuming into nothing but nekkid bellybuttons and tits and ass comix... heavy emphasis on the tits... and no emmphasis on intelligent and coherent storytelling or storylines. The escalation of onscreen violence, misogny and sadism is becoming repugnant.
The inane decisions regarding characters we have loved for decades is borderline psychopathic. I don't know what has infected their brains...if they have brains... and I begin to doubt this if ruling policy for the forseeable future is "groupthink". Telling writers what to write and "toe the mark or else" ... which has obviously happened finally with Chris...as he has rolled over, ended his eloquent silence of disapproval and finally been forced to babble praise for detestible things. But then, Chris loves his characters and will do anything he has to sto stay there and save as many as possible. Of course if they say..."Get rid of this character or else..." he will say " yes, massa..." you betcha. And Joey the Q, cementing his power play, seems to be of that ilk.

The demon who is a devout religiously motivated character is lost on them. The irony of the character...his pathos...is totally foreign to their thinking. So was it with Magneto. The "villain with a purpose and a valid point...and a sympathetic and understandable history.

They won't listen to one or two of us writing. but if the offices are bombarded with mail and the emails and boards are loaded with people expressing outrage and fury at this possibility... you fans CAN make a difference. The only thing that won't help is apathy. Get to writing and get your local comic stores to help in a campaign to protect the Nightcrawler we know and love. That's your only hope people. send emails and follow them up with snail mail. the addy to write to is always in my signature.

Get crckin' Magneto fans adopted a wait and see viewpoint with abominations like Planet X and House of M and lost the momentum. This rumor was leked for a reason...someone there doesn't want this to happen and if fan reaction is loud and strong enough,maybe it won't... so it's up to you! Spread the word and nip the action before it happens. It is easier to stave off a bit of real stupidity than to "fix" it after it is canon...

Paty
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Post by Nandireya »

Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer
Nandy - Could you possibly put up a link to that Comix Fan thread?
The post that started it all is HERE...it might not be Kurt he was talking about...I think Meggan's a big possibility...she's not a member of the new Excalibur after all...maybe her death is what brings Brian back to super-heroics? And he didn't actually say it was one of the Uncanny team...and remember the ‘significant’ death in Wolverine that turned out to be Northstar? Sure, JP has his fans, but he’s hardly an A-Lister…but I won't be happy until he confirms that it won't be Kurt like he did with Ororo...
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

I doubt it will be Nightcrawler- Marvel seems to be on the back swing from their mass killings. Psylocke, Magneto, Colossus and Vision have been ressurected, Jean sorta has, Hawkeye and Pyro look like they may be alive again after HoM ends- To kill anyone as significant as Nightcrawler would go against their recent trend of bringing back core characters.

I could see Meggan dying to get Captain Brittain back into action, and I could also see Rachel dying if it means bringing Jean back into the comics.

Every writer seems to want Nightcrawler- but then again, that means nothing. Morrison, who pretty much had a free run, wanting Peter for New X-men wasn't enough to stop Marvel from letting Lobdell kill him off in the first place. It was only after Morrison, Austen, Claremont, and Whedon all saying that they had stories for him that he was brought back.
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Post by Lysistrata »

I suspect poor Meggan will get the axe. Marvel's hard on Long Term Relationships. Marriage is often used as an excuse to get characters off the page (unless you're Scott Summers), so becoming a widower would be a good excuse to get Captain Britain back into a book.

I didn't see anything in the original post to imply the "significant" death would be Kurt.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

I am also jumping in the "it's not Kurt because ____" boat......

My because being: Wasn't the Christine/Kurt relationship in the solo book nixed because of Clairmont's plans for him?? Didn't I hear about that somewhere??

I don't see how a budding relationship would conflict with Clairmont's death plans...
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Post by Paty »

:magneto

I think the fact that Alan cummings, the guy who played Kurt in the second movie, posted on his website that Kurt wouldnn't be in the third movie may have fueled speculation that it might be him.

For Dave's sake, I surely hope not... Kurt is Dave's alter ego. He was saddened and disgusted by the totally useless death of Colossus... and gladdened when he was brought back.

But Marvel has had this penchant for a while now. they don't know how to tell creative stories... so they KILL off characters to shock and make the fans howl. The equate fear, grief and outrage with fan involvement... and, it is indeed involvement... in a very negative way. They cannot apparently differentiate between positive and negative fan reaction... like small children who misbehave and get attention...not caring whether it is positive or negative attention... it is attention.

this is childish behavior from supposedly adult creators. And often it is not the creators...ie writers and artists... who are doing it. Sometimes they are told what to do by the groupthink editors.

The shock value of killing a character is waning...they have done it too often...and they always have to bring the characte back sooner or later... if only to renew the copyrights!!! Don't forget... these are merchandisable corporate properties... and sooner or later you will get a writer in there who wants to use them... or copyright laws will necessitate using them to retain trademark or registrations, not to mention copyrights. So... you HAVE to use them or lose the visual images, the names, the logos and such of that character.

In the olden days, a character you didn't want to use wasn't killed... he was SEEMINGLY KILLED... or sent off to anoteer dimension... or on a journey or whatever so that he could easily be brought back by someone else who WANTED to use him. These days... shock and violence substitutes for real storytelling, so let's kill them... laugh merrily while fans scream and then bring them back IF fan reaction is really bad. They do not see how this erodes their validity as storytellers or professionals in the biz.

They are children...nasty, sadistic children...posing as adults and not caring about the emotional trauma of ther readership... or even about the quality of the stories they are putting out.

When they killed Northstar, a gay fan took them to task on major newsboards and pointed out that Northstar was an icon for all the gay readers out there! Jews love Magneto...and Kitty Pryde, whom they won't kill cuz she's a girl and not that powerful and malleable... and doesn't have a big female following...like Mags does. But Mags has been fair game since Claremont made himJewish and gorgeous and reasonable ...with a point to his actions... and the boyos couldn't STAND it that he was getting more lust than they were!!! And they were REAL!!!

But corporate properties cannot stay dead.. they are too valuable... and no one is minding the store cuz gratuitous death for shock sake is not working or workable any more... so why bother? It is not that they cannot learn...it is that they WILL NOT learn... or admit they were wrong. They just dream up some cockamamie story to bring the character back and only the talent of the writer doing it makes it sound plausible or totally off the wall. and they ignore the fact that they should never have done it in the first place and go on to the NEXT character they are gonna shock the fans by killing.

It is stupid and puerile and typically Marvel for the last several years... and no end in sight!

Paty
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Post by Nandireya »

I can think of a couple of things to support the “Nighty’s gonna die!â€
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Post by Shadow_Dancer »

I just got the next installment of Uncanny- #464. Has anyone else lost interest in this particular story arc?

I find that I can't wait until this House of M stuff is over. I don't know if it's because Kurt is completely absent in Uncanny and my only source of comics have not been selling the separate House of M book, or the fact that I find the story line hard to follow.

Having Bachalo as artist doesn't help either. I've already mentioned in another thread that I don't like his style. It's too animeish (which I don't care for). And while his women are tolerable, in my opinion, his men are down right ugly. You can tell his artwork primarily geared toward preteen boys. Is Marvel still unaware that the average comic reader now is college age?

One other thing that disturbed me was an answer to a fan letter about future Ororo and Logan scenes. Apparently, there will be plenty. Yeah, what I really want to see is Kurt watching brokenhearted as his best friend and Storm get it on. That's if he's even IN this book once House of M is over.

I'm sorry. I know this post is a downer, but that's what I'm feeling about every aspect of Marvel these days from the X3 movie to the canceled Nightcrawler solo. My Uncanny subscription is up with issue #474. I doubt that I'll be renewing it.
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Post by Lysistrata »

Nandirya - thanks for posting Claremont's reassurance.
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Post by Paty »

:magneto
Gee... I do hope Chris is correct this time... but he's been flummoxed by Marvel so many times I am surprised he is still working there.
I had him on the phone one day last year and he was telling me about the plans he had for Mags and Xavier...obliquely and not giving anything away, of course...but he assured me they were extensive ... and six months later they say the book is on hiatus when they and even Chris knew it was being yanked out from under him. That was why he was so quiet for so long, disappearing from the boards...it had to be a big blow for him. OK.. he had a contract and they had to give him something else, so he got back on the boards babbling about the New Excalibur hysterically...but I had talked to him about the old Excalibur and he was really into it and had long range plans for it.

The Marvel children are obviously jealous of Claremont's body of work and I would not be surprised if they tried to retcon his work all the way back to Giant sized number one! Using House of M to do it. I would bet they will go all the way back to one fifty, just to knock off his depiction of Magneto as a jewish holocaust survivor and a reasonable, complex and deep character...but I could see their jealousy going further..I really could. They are so transparent in their actions.

But I will hope he is right in this particular instance. nighty is one of the most wildly popular characters since SpiderMan!!! and his fandom can be vocal if they choose to be. The Magneto fans have had to fight for the last fifteen years and we are tired of fighting... so cannot raise enough time and energy to protect our fave guy any more...and they are taking advantage of that to do what they always... since Hardass... wanted to do.
Of course, as far as a Wolvie/Ro situation...didn't she just try to seduce Gambit???? Girl's got NO taste! Of course...boys are writing her and marvel's policy on females seems to be they areither innocent virgins or supersluts...nothing in between... and this is, of course, super sophomoric thinking ...even for them.
The pud puller market has always been the ones these boys are after... they make no bones about it... cuz that was the traditional market for the early books. But the demographic has changed. The readership is more mature and has women in it... something they don't seem to want to deal with or acknowledge.. mainly cuz they don't have the wherewithal to deal with it. Chris could deal with it if they would LET him... he's the one that brought fandom along into adulthood for seventeen years...and he knows how to write for that fandom if they let him.

But Joey the Q has said that the next eighteen months of fallout from House of M will be comic stories by editorial committee. He said that at Chicago con. and if I had not already decided to boycott Marvel products because of what they are gonna do to Mags...that would be IT for me. I do not think anything of quality...even the degraded quality of recent storylines... can come out of "groupthink" sessions of the ilk that produced Avengers Disassemble and House of M...those two linked storylines are proof of what youcan expect of the editorial groupthink that is happening and, indeed, has already happened. PTUI!

Oh, well...it was a fun ride while it lasted...they're tearing down the orllercoaster, kiddies..don't expect a better one...it won't happen. Y'know, I really hate to sound so negative about a medium I was once so positive about... but there is no hope for it when I see some of the things going down there these days... and more and more of the people I correspond with and know are getting as morose as I am and saying Paty...you were right...

It really IS depressing...but I will say this... one of the observations in this forum... I believe it was... made sense to me. And that was that if contractually Alan Davis had a guarantee of doing Nighty...and they yanked the character away from him and Chris... then technically, Marvel is in breach of contract... and Davis should sue them and by that action tell the fans the real reason why he walked away instead of leaving the marvel liars to fabricate whatever story they want to explain his departure...which they will do, given the necessity. The fans need to know some of the dirty ploys that are going on inoffice... and there is no way to find that out except obliquely any more, they having become aware of what leaks can do and tracing down every single one they don't approve of and punishing or terminating the "leaker" . Of course, leks that further their wiles are permitted and winked at and used to sway or direct the readership.

Oh, what tangled webs they weave.. and I ain't talking about Spidey, either, kiddies...

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Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Paty
:magneto
Gee... I do hope Chris is correct this time... but he's been flummoxed by Marvel so many times I am surprised he is still working there.
I had him on the phone one day last year and he was telling me about the plans he had for Mags and Xavier...obliquely and not giving anything away, of course...but he assured me they were extensive ... and six months later they say the book is on hiatus when they and even Chris knew it was being yanked out from under him. That was why he was so quiet for so long, disappearing from the boards...it had to be a big blow for him. [snip...]
Well, I not only hope but assume he would be correct in this instance. He would know, and his behaviour is not like that in the instance you quote. He has not been quiet for long or really disappeared from the boards, from what I've seen.

He's perfectly willing to talk about Uncanny and I assume he wouldn't post a disclaimer like that to a large, public forum if he didn't know it was true. He makes good points and I do indeed see Kurt staying in there for quite a while.
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Post by Paty »

:magneto
From your lips...to the ears of the Bright Lady.

Yeah, Chris seems willing to talk about anythingEXCEPT Magneto...his greatest masterpiece which was yanked out from under him. And earlier this year during the big debate was Excalibur on hiatus or cancelled he was dead silent for months.

Years ago, when the big debate raged over the worthiness or lack thereof of Morrison's crap...he was silent on the matter. Now Chris is a gentleman...unlike others... a professioal of the first water... and he would stay silent rather than "dis" a supposed colleague, no matter how much disrespect that colleague showed him and his body of work... which is rightly called Uncanny canon.

that he is babbling about the "worthiness" of something he stayed silent on rather than comment unfavorable on means something only if you know him personally and his behavior patterns.. which I do.

If you know Cris, his silences speak volumes... and so do his jumping up and down and waving his arms and being hyper bubbly to the point of actually apologizing for an overabundance of bubble. which he did...on, I believe, the X Fan board mondo pages of thread ago...when he first broke his silence. Chris was never one to bubble...eye twinklem maybe... soft grin at things he wasnnn't telling you..yeah... but hysterical bubbling to the point of being a champaigne bottle shaken, not stirred? Gimme a break,here kiddo... I know what i am talking about...and I can read between the lines, too...you HAVE to do that with Marvel... they talk with forked tongue these days.

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Post by HoodedMan »

Originally posted by Paty
Gimme a break,here kiddo... I know what i am talking about...and I can read between the lines, too...you HAVE to do that with Marvel... they talk with forked tongue these days.
If that's how it turns out, so be it. I simply disagree; I don't HAVE to read things between the lines that I don't believe are there. You may have more experience dealing with Marvel, but I have that option.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Back onto Uncanny....

I don;t know about the rest of you....but I have no idea WHAT happened in this issue.....I mean..I get it.....but theres only one issue left in this HoM arc...how the hell is he gonna wrap all this up? And WTF?
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Post by Shadow_Dancer »

Thanks Nandy, I didn't see that you edited your post with that update when I posted earlier.

That certainly is a relief to know. With all the things that have been happening with Nightcrawler all at the same time, I was afraid Marvel was trying to obliterate the fuzzy elf.
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Post by Nandireya »

Yeah...I get the impression that Chris doesn't have a lot of creative control...I wonder if the possible Logan/Ororo relationship (:yech) is being forced on him due to X-Men 3... he's not talking about 'Ro either...says he's not allowed to...

I'm hoping for and dreading the end of House of M...the concept had such potential which I don't feel it's met...and the whole editors-in-charge-of stories thing make me shudder...that godawful Romeo and Juliet thing was their idea...and poor Chuck got the blame for it...
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Post by Lysistrata »

My local comic store didn't get in this week's Uncanny, Hulk, or a few other titles. I wouldn't normally care about the Hulk, but the HoM tie in has been pretty decent. I'm dying to know what's happening in Uncanny, though. I've got a soft spot for Nocturne and I'm really curious how they're going to explain her.
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Post by Paty »

:magneto
Hmmmm... Just got uncanny 464... Nocturne's on the run from the House of M Callisto version of agent of SHEESH! Which is, of course, the lackluster House of M equivalent of SHIELD... ho hum...and she bounces around fromRachel to other people. No real spoilers, here, people... there is not enough storyline to give away... do the "spoiler techniques" work the same here as in the previous version? It didn't look like it to me with another thread...or maybe they just did it wrong...which I can commisserate with...

I am here to tell ya, however, this has been the goddamn most boring summer since bob Harras put out a summer in the early nineties whth NO... count, 'em, NO, X comics for three months in the middle of the SUMMER!!! THEN they made him Editor in Chief!!! go figure...

Now, if any editor had gone for even one month without an X book of ANY magnitude he would have been fired in OUR day... but Hardass went for three whole months without a single X book... of which there were four or five doing monthly appearances at the time... so you tell me WHAT he had on WHO!!!

Well... eventually he got fired when new management came in and said "Say WHAT???" AND RIGHTLY SO...

In any event, this has been the BORRRRRRRRRINGEST summer in X dom since then...maybe even including then... is boring better than nonexistyant ? or the other way round? After all, if there's NO books at least you can't waste your money HOPING something interesting will happen and being disappointed every month when it doesn't. The House of M title proper has two more issues... number six having just come out... and how it meshes with the FF House of M and it's storyline is problematic at best. The FF House of M three parter which just ended up, was one of the bright spots, having an excellent art and storyline involving Doom trying to take over the world from Magneto... in true Doomsie style.
Kudoes to that whole production.

Haven't seen the Hulk tie in, so cannot comment onit...but the main title is so ho hum it seems a mortal sin to waste good trees in it's printing so far. We will probably be treated??? to lots of violence and big fights in issues seven and eight, of course, with wild revelations that storylines have failed to build up all along and the shock value will supposedly just blow our sox right off our feet...NOT...

but on one interesting note...in this issue of Uncanny, we get more info on the pop in and out older brother of brian and Betsy...JAMIE... who WARPS CAUSALITY and is TOTALLY MAD!!! Now... causality is a word they hav been sorta using as an interchangable word for REALITY...so is THIS the big surprising , totally outta the blue BAD GUY who is using wanda to warp reality??? oops...CAUSALITY..?? Is Magneto, sleepwalking as if in a dream himself through this whole stupid event, NOT REALLY the one in charge??? Surprise, kiddies!!! Heheheheheheee...we FOOLED you!!!

sigh...maybe ...maybe not... but it almost begins to look like it. who knows what these children are doing. The story hasn't been developed with any clarity of storyline... and multiple crossovers don't help...to tell anything about anything. It is all chaos and mayhem... and we are supposed to be kept on the edge of our seats by this godawful storytelling??? sigh... And then, eighteen months of groupthink storylines to look forward to??? Who is paying these asswipes to DESTROY MARVEL???

I mean it. they couldn't be doing a better job... apathy and disinterest kill a book faster than anything else. And there is a plethora of both in this BIG EVENT...PTUI!!!

However, I have to particularly chuckle that all the towers of this dream world look like penises...really... technicolor condoms with red french tickler tops on some of them... but really...GIANT PHALLIC SYMBOLS!!! Ah, yes... the male rules..even symbolically... at marvel...

Oog...

Paty
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Personally, I am enjoying HoM. I think it's fun, I think it's a nice "vacation" from 616 reality, and I know, as we all do, that whatever is "irreversably changed!!!!1" in this will be unchanged in a year by another writer or "catastrophic event". But this is what I've learned to expect from comics, and if I was offended by it, I would stop buying. After all, it is numbers that count. If you stop buying books, you force Marvel to reevaluate. And if they don't reevaluate it's because there are enough people who LIKE what they are doing to keep them going.

Times change. People change, industry changes. It's an inevitability. Some of us will not like these changes, but others will welcome it. Perhaps those of us who disapprove should learn to move on....
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Post by Paty »

:magneto
Oh, an awful lot of people I correspond with have told me that after thirty or forty years of loving the comics, the characters, their ongoing stories and being loyal fans who would never think of abandoning old friends...yeah... they've moved on.

But I have also found that the battle for the soul of a character...it's depiction and core character... is lost if you give up your viewpoint. One viewpoint is as valid as another... and I have always maintained that you can do virtually anything with ANY character... as long as you maintain that character's core characer. Spider Man would no more take a gun and shoot a person than superman would. batman is just dark and psychotic enough he might be tempted... and his battle to overcome that would be filled with more pathos simply because youknow the darkness that lies at the soul of his character. For Supes or Spidey, for example, it would be so OUT OF CHARACTER as to be virtually impossible. while some characters are, by their very nature, maleable, some are not and SHOULD NOT be.

Yeah... times change and characters change and storylines can warp and twist the circumstances a character finds himself in. You can explore very complex and interesting viewpoints...if the writer is talented enough... because you know what the character stands for to begin with... and the temptations of circumstance provide a fertile ground for the exploration into the psyche... and this is the basis for really good stories.

But this isn't happening in House of M. We are not delving into the psyche of wanda or Magneto or pietro or very many others who make up the core of this whole worldview. they are being ignored to death! Indeed, in every Magneto storyline that has carried HIS logo, Magneto was the character we saw the LEAST of!!! How often does this happen??? Not often. Ororo shows up in all her books... Nighty in all of his... Captain America is front and center in his books... and Spidey has stories about HIM... not vignettes of him and everyone else reacting around him. Sure you have foreys off with other sidereal characters... but they further the plot... their actions aren't the core of the plot. The stories are about THEM. so they figure prominently. Hoouse of Magnus. Hmmmm... where is Magnus? Sleepwalking through the whole thing. Now, this is better than totally destroying the character... as Magneto fans of long standing are afraid these kids will do. We would rather have him ignored to death than totally mishandled and trashed as Morrison did in Planet Xcrement. That was so out of character it was absurd.... but it's flaws, glaring as they were, and pointed out and discussed as they were, provided a blueprint for the people who just cannot et the character alone..the ones who HAVE to take that damed backstory away from him... to attack on every front. They just haven't done it yet... and loyal fans of more years than you have been alive who have no intention of letting people drive them away from their fave characters are sitting here just waiting for the sword to fall.

And then we will decide whether to walk away and boycott Marvel and it's products and encourage all we meet to do the same, giving our reasons why and shouting to the skies that what was done was wrong and done for the wrong reasons.
You simply do not change iconic characters beyond recognition! You don't make Robin Hood into Prince John... Robinhood has lessons to teach generations of kids... so does Captain America and spidey and Bats and Supes. But the idealism of the character has to remain pure... or the lessons lose their punch and pathos and impact. If you neutralize everything and make every character malleable you lose the bulwark upon which to write the stories that teach the lessons. All becomes sand and will be washed away with every new tide of writers. The characters must retain their core personalities. You wanna do something new and interesting? CREATE YOUR OWN GODDAMN CHARACTERS and quit messing up the creations of better storytellers than you will ever be!
Some of these writers are little more than the same kind of demented vandals as the asswipe who took a sledge hammer to Michaelangelo's Pieta! marring and trying to destroy a masterpiece. and why? because they could not hope to do anything as good .. much less better!
good writers BUILD on the writers who have come before..especially when they DO NOT OWN THE CHARACTERS! Bad ones have to tear down and destroy so that what they build cannot be compared to what was wrought by another. Of course, as long as Marvel continues to reprint old classics... to reprint the silver age stories as well as the golden age stuff... the real characters will be out there... and yes, maybe somewhere down the road, someone will say Hey...let's get this character back on track... bring him back to the pinnacle of his stardom..maybe not the beginnings...for characters DO grow and develop, too... but the PINNICLE of his popularity... if they understand WHAT made the character ppopular in the first place.
Both Bats and Supes have been around so long that this has happened many times... up down.. serious, camp...funny ... tragic... you name it...they have gone through it...and still they are teaching new generations of kids the lessons their fathers learned and their grandfathers learned...from the same characters... because the CORE characters remained whole... and the company kept the core characterization pure.
Talking animals... like Mickey the rat and Donald the speech impaired duck are as popular as they were a half century ago... why? Has the populace moved on? Grown? gotten new viewpoints? No...every generationhas to learn the same lessons all over again... maybe with different language... but the lessons of our society are not ingrained in our genes...like a collie pup who knows how to herd without being taught... or are they? do we want our heroes...our epic icons... to be there for us and teach us the essons of youth we have forgotten? Yes... we do. In a world that is ever changing.. is sand under our feet... we want some icons to remain stalwart and strong in the face of all the changes and temptations...simply because we need that bulwark against all the changes we cannot control in our real everyday lives. That's what they are there for! If shit happens to them and they hold the line... then maybe they can provide the impetus for US to hold the line too... it's what HEROES do... otherwise why bother? Why bother with any epic hero? and the characters who have been around since before you were born in their core personalities should not be changed in those core personalities simply because a few new, niave readers want a more "hip, exciting or with it" depictation... and especially if it means changing the core of the character's personality. If a writer cannot hope to understand the charadter ...for whatever reason.. . immaturity, not enough life experience or outlook, ethnic or racial bias, hidden agendas, professional jealousy or whatever... then that writer should not be allowed to destroy a character that is far bigger and more real to millions of people that HE is!

Move on? In a pig's eye! Because then, the battlefield is clear for the asswipes to win. And the characters lose. And the characters are far more important than the writers who abuse them... sor they will be here long after the puerile writers are forgotten or dust in the wind. I will be a burr under the hide of Marvel until it comes to it's senses! Or goes under. I left the field of battle once...hoping my absence would help the situation. It didn't. It got immeserably worse becuse i wasn't there to fight for characters I loved. Ain't happening again, kiddo... the characters and precepts they stand for are too important. Camelot still exists ...if only in MY mind... and I will fight tooth and nail to bring it back! I take very seriously the admonition in the song...
don't let it be forgot...that once there was a spot...for ONE BRIEF, SHINING MOMENT...that was known as...
Marvel Comics! Camelot!

Because that's what it once was... and that's what it could be again! We just gotta clean the muck and slime and perversions away from it and let the pure gold at the heart of it shine through. But right now... we are up to our nostrils in kaka del toro.
A modern day Augean stables that really needs cleaning out... so, I won't move on...I will rake the muck and hope to find somewhere the drainplug that once opened, will allow all the crapola to wash away. I may go down rakin mud and literal feces... but I don't walk away and let the stink lie so others think it is gold... not ever again! Been there...did that... got the tee shirt to prove it!

Paty
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Post by NachtcGleiskette »

Where is this battlefield? What is being fought in this battle? How is this battle being fought? I see you often posting your distaste here, but what is it doing to further your battle? I'm very confused.....

Why can't Spiderman pick up a gun and shoot someone? It's in human nature, that people can evolve beyond our specific expectations surrounding them, and what I have seen lately is not the rape of characterization, but in fact the humanising of these characters. More interesting to me than the writer who would never think to put a gun in Spidey's hand because it's not "in his character", is the writer who finds the one instance, the one thing that would drive him to do something like that.

I like whats being written. I like how characters are evolving. I like alot of the writers today. Sure we have some bad seeds here and there, but thats to be expected. Does it matter in your "battle" that there are people who genuinely enjoy whats going on now? I'm 23 years old, far old enough to decide for myself what I like and dislike. As I said, the minute Marvel starts doing what I don't like, I'll stop buying. And that will be MY personal decision. And most likely, what I don't like will be loved by a whole new generation of readers. And that's fine.
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Post by Diablo »

OK, the post-House of M Uncanny team has emerged.
Well, it's quite the same team... minus Storm -who'll probably marry Black Panther one day, it seems.
What's cool for us is that Kurt FINALLY gets the leadership. :)
And what do you think of Bachalo's art ?
I find his Nightcrawler quite fine-looking. Plus, Psylocke presence is really welcome.
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO »

Originally posted by Diablo
OK, the post-House of M Uncanny team has emerged.
Well, it's quite the same team... minus Storm -who'll probably marry Black Panther one day, it seems.
Cannonball will also be joining soon.
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Post by Paty »

:magneto
Heeeee.. I doubt seriously that Storm will marry T'Challa. she's an alpha female and he's an alpha male. Neither one of them is gonna give an inch in what they believe and generally take offense at being stepped on...as alphas will.
Unlike a wolfpack, in which alpha females have respect and status, the human ape pack tends to denigrate females who show leadership ability.. by and large. I don't think Storm will stand for this...she didn't stand for it from Forge and she won't be bossed around by T'challa, either. Personally, I think she is too much of a loner to hook up with anyone permanently... and Marvel would be wise to keep her single. Kurt, too. Marriage tends to kil interest in a character in many aspects. when they are footloose and fancy free, readers can fantasize about possible romantic entanglements... but once married, the character is supposed to stay loyal or be percieved as something less than heroic. this is the secret of keeping your characters interesting... don't marry them off!!!
Most people go through such pangs of romantic chaos .. from teenage years into young adulthood...the prime readership of the X books... and even into adulthood and , yes, old age, too...that a connection with the characters angst and pathos is immediate and deep... if the character has as much romantic chaos as most of us! the whole "Am I worthy?... does she love me?...does he love me?... how can she not think of me as anything but a dork cuz I KNOW I am a dork!!!" syndrome. As soon as you know that Kurt , for all his adventure and dashing sex appeal , has as much trouble in his lovelife as YOU do... bingo! Instant identification... for guys. and "Oh, the poor guy... I coud make his life fun, interesting and lust filled..." for the girl readers!
It is a prime ingredient in the superhero genre. The more sexual/romantic possibilities that are really viable that you have, the better...cuz the whole scenerio can go anywhere or EVERYWHERE... as long as the character isn't tied down by marriage.
Now, these days, Marriage doesn't seem to be the sacred cow it once was ... under the Code! But there is still a very heavy thing there. If you can establish a good rapport between the two characters, and are an excellent writer, you can develop a sort of Mr and Mrs North kind of ambience... like the old DC Hawks..Hawkman and Hawkgirl... adults working together in a rightful pairing. sorta like Reed and sue. These days divorce is bandied about as are most of the old sacred cows...just fodder for the fires of hype and sales.
I kinda think it is too bad... but then maybe I am an old fud. But I still think they won't marry Storm off... she's too good as a sexual fantasy, a free and wild woman! tying her down to domesticity would be a cardinal sin... Marvel isn't THAT stupid.. is it? I mean... they have actually made a couple good choices lately... surprisingly. Hmmmm... wonder how THAT happened... But, in any event, one can only hope this rather unusual bout of rationality continues!


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Post by Angelique »

> This is the secret of keeping your characters interesting... don't marry them off!!!

I think that's a rather unfortunate attitude toward marriage. And I think pretty much the worst thing to happen to marriage both in real life and in fiction is the ending "and they lived happily ever after," with the implication that there's nothing left of interest to tell of the story. Romantic chaos happens even within the most solid relationships, after all. It's life, and that means married life, too.
And I think Rowena's proven pretty well in her Earth 723 fics that Kurt can remain fun and interesting as a married man. (I know I can't help but think lucky the woman who marries Kurt- and God help her, too!)
But I know, not everyone is up to the challenge of keeping a happily married character interesting. (That's why, in my opinion, we've got Scott and Emma. Heaven forbid facing the challenge of making Jott interesting without adding adultery!!!)
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