Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:03 pm

may very well be his own choice, i don't talk to him. but he kind of has a history of pandering to online fans... which makes him popular with the long time fans, but not so much with the newcomers. mostly becuase (and i think this is just his own style as well) he drags up old plot points form 20 years ago, or mentions things that you NEED previous knowledge of the books to understand. would someone who has never heard of Excalibur or Captain Britain have a clue about what was supposed to be the big deal on last page of 444? that's limiting your audience by confusing newcomers. should be writing stories that can stand on their own, not constant references to the past. if you're referring to like, maybe 10 issues ago, fine. but HOW long has it been since we've seen Brian? (not counting Avengers) gotta be at least 50 issues or more. and in another series. there are ways of referenccing the past without making knowledge of the past necessary. hinting at a past relationship or something. in a way where it's clear there was a past between characters, but you don't have to read those issues to get it. CC doesn't seem to do this, though.

or stuff like his plan for resurrecting Psylocke in her original British body. supposedly to make her less complicated. how the HELL is yet ANOTHER resurrection/body-switch supposed to make her LESS complicated? better to just keep her asian and just not mention her past. people coming in would never have to know she had formerly been white but then 'died' and switched bodies and got new powers, and was insta-ninja'd. now they have to know all that, plus that she died what, over 40 issues ago? and now she's alive again and back to 'normal'. not to mention insta-ninjaing Kitty.... in a miniseries that's so hard to find there may as well be no explanation for it. (stumbled across it online once) it later just became known she was a good fighter, and you know, that's fine and all. but to do it in such a contrived way in the first place....

i realize he made many of these characters what they are today. even created some of them. great. I appreciate that. and i realize that in a serial medium, sometimes past events need to be brought up in order to clear something up or advance a larger story. I just don't like his way of going about it. ok that's the last i haveto say on this, you all have fun...

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:54 pm

So okay, it's a generation problem.
You know, for me, Claremont's X-men (1975-around1991) are STILL the best ones. He did it all. The mutants are what they are today, just because of him, and his beautiful first run.

I'm younger than Jill and I still have a fondness for those old Claremont issues. Some may have come out before I was born, but that doesn't mean I didn't read them.

But I think I'm an exception. It's generation problem...and that just proves our point even further and goes completely against yours.

How many X-Fans out there are either 30+ years old or went through the trouble of getting all those old issues? It has to be a dwindling minority in the scheme of things.

Our points are that:

His style is now outdated because it's been 23 years since that first run.
New readers will not get it.

First problem : he only cares about Nightcrawler when he works with Dave Cockrum or Alan Davis !
Second problem : his return has not satisfied me... until now ! I hope Davis will stay a few years. The alchemy between these two creators is real !

I hardly think that he only cares about Kurt when Dave or Alan are on board. What makes you think that?

As for the alchemy, I just don't see it. I can't see any difference in the writing or storytelling style from X-Treme's. It's still Claremont still writing in the same style still brushing off new readers still jumping ahead in development instead of doing it in any sort of realistic fashion.

Well, maybe he's a fan, himself, and that's just the way he wants to write the characters. Maybe there's no hidden agenda at all...

And even if it's just pandering... well, I'm not complaining. Guess it's just my time to be pandered to

He's most definitely a fan himself. Problem is that it all comes off as "Claremont, fan of Claremont" not "Claremont, fan of the X-Men."

Ya, I would say I'm nostalgic when it comes to the old issues. I'm talkin pre Cockrum and Claremont as well. I did have all the issues of the X-Men at one time. Up to issue 265 or so. Everytime I looked through those books I sort of felt like I was a kid again. Recapture my youth I'd suppose.

I'm a HUGE He-Man fan and it's out of nostalgia, mostly.

Over the past 2 years, I gathered about $4000 into my He-Man collection...and that will most likely only grow as more stuff is released.

I love the old cartoon. I have all 130 episodes and all 3 movies on tape...but, had the NEW He-Man cartoon been just like the old one, I wouldn't have liked it and it's likely that it would have totally crashed and burned because today's kids wouldn't have, either.

The style has changed. The level of technology has changed.

Just like CC's X-Men, the original He-Man was ground-breaking. It was the first ever first-run syndicated animated series. It was wildly popular. It was one of the best things on TV.

It's NOT 1985 anymore.

You can't do things the same way as you did back then or they don't hold up by today's standards.

Northstars Love · Post by **Northstars Love** » Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:44 pm

It's NOT 1985 anymore.

You can't do things the same way as you did back then or they don't hold up by today's standards.

LOL! That's for sure! No, you can't recapture the past. That is why I have gone into Reload with an open mind regardless of whose writing the stories. I loved Morrison's run up until Planet X and now that arc makes more sense to me after reading Here Comes Tomorrow. Never read any of Morrison's work until New X-Men. District X was a surprise for me. Same with Academy X. I never liked the New Mutants.

I enjoyed reload Uncanny not because it was "Claremont/Davis" OMG! or whomever else may be writing at the time. Sure names may help me consider reading a new book but it's not what makes me buy the book. Every issue of a comic cannot be filled with glorious action pack James Bond type mayhem either. There will be downtime for our merry mutants. That's why I get upset at those folks that rip Chuck apart for the She Lies With Angels arc. Too Romeo and Juliet they say. Well, so what? There are stories that can be written without always invoking the mayhem gods.

Although She Lies With Angels did have a little violence in it.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Sun Jun 06, 2004 10:45 am

Well, Crawler, you made some good points.

It's true Claremont doesn't take care of the newcomers and that his style is "foggy".
But that's not why I WON'T buy and enjoy his title.
You can think it's selfish, but I remember, some 15 years ago, when I bought my fist comic-books (Excalibur #1 and X-Factor#27), that I, too, was totally lost.
You know what ??
I enjoyed every second of it !
It took me years and years to finally understand what this X-Men world was all about. And sometimes I miss this feeling.

So OK, it's this kind of writing style that discourage newcomers, but for some weirdoes like me, it generates loyal fans !

(Oh, and nowadays,when I wanna get lost again, I just read a DC-comic book. It's fun !)

Concerning Nightcrawler, come on ! He's only the star of the book when Davis and Cockrum are here !
When Claremont works with Byrne or JRJR or everybody else, he only lives in the shadows of Logan and Ororo !
Thank god, one day came Excalibur ! -the first series... Sorry to the nexcomers.

Icey · Post by **Icey** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 12:23 am

I don't see the problem with Claremont's X-stories being hard for newer readers. I like how things I know are brought up, and I enjoy the way he does so. This book IS for the older reader or the reader with more knowledge of the X-cannon. Or at least someone with enough energy to look something up they don't know or understand. I thought that was obvious, with moving Claremont to Uncanny, and teaming him up with Davis.

There are four core X-titles right now. If someone new comes on, they can try something else. I suggest New X-Men or Astonishing X-Men, both were extremily new reader friendly. In fact, both #1s were probably written for the newer reader.

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 2:19 am

I picked up UXM 445 on Friday, and today is the first time I've had to get on line and wade into this thread.

I liked the way it turned out, partialy because of Davis' art style, and partially the story arc and the characters around it. Interestingly enough, my main focus here isn't so much the KuRoro midway through, [spoiler] but rather the first few pages. I was ready for an angst fest, which isn't necessarily a good thing, and was pleasantly surprised to see some realistic character development instead. It's good to see Logan as a MAN, not just a macho killing machine. He felt like absolute SHIT after being forced to kill a kid.

Kurt dealt with it in a slightly different way. He was able to completely and successfully fulfill his part of the bargain by getting the rest of the school to safety... but Logan wasn't. Because they tried to play according to the rules, Logan was forced into a kill-or-everyone-else-be-killed situation. And you can't tell me Kurt can't pick up on this. He's *got* to know that Logan's hand was forced, and it's eating him up inside. And if Kurt hadn't been so sure the cops would let them in, if he hadn't insisted they play fair... if he had listened to Logan and snuck in, maybe the kid would be alive as well.

Because Logan did the actual deed, he turned the anger inward to himself. Kurt, on the other hand, wasn't so much paralyzed by his actions as enraged for his buddy, and he was just about to take it out on the real problem (the cops and S.W.A.T. team) when Ororo and Danvers arrived. That's a lot of emotions to swirl around besides just garden-variety "boo hoo, nobody likes us."

My only problem, in fact, is that they toned the violence down so far that I had no idea what Logan had done to the kid for a good four pages. Look ma, no blood! And no guts... no gore... not even any ripped clothes.... The kid's just laying there with his eyes rolled into the back of his head, which could mean anything. So the guard's shout of "He butchered him!" came as a cognitive dissonance. Even when they wheeled the kid out in a body bag, I thought he had died because his power finally did it from the inside. In fact, it wasn't until Carol Danvers arrived and the debriefing happened that I realized that Wolverine had to kill him.

I realize Marvel is trying to court younger audiences with this, and there's a moratorium on Wolvie doing his patented slice-and-dice, but they went so far with it that it actually interrupted the story in this case. I'm not sure whether Davis was trying to be subtle, or the colorist got it wrong, or what, but... you know... just the idea of Logan killing a teenager to save the other thirty is mature enough that maybe a little blood is in order. Just enough to let you know what he'd done. It certainly won't traumatize our audience any worse....[/spoiler]

And since we've been discussing the KuRoro angle at length, I'm going to dispense with the spoiler tags for my P.O.V.:

Um... guys...?

I think we may be making a mountain out of a molehill, here....

Here's my main observations:

Obviously, for those of us who've read the old (and I mean OLD) issues, this was a callback. This was a reference to something that happened back in the early 100s. (I think. The Juggernaut and Black Tom Cassidy arc was in the early teens, wasn't it?) They referred to the incident deliberately and used the same outfits (the only real difference being stylistic, in that Alan was drawing instead of Cockrum).

This can be taken in may different ways:

* Chris is paying homage to the long-time readers, or those newer ones who have gone to the trouble of picking up the TPBs.
* Chris wants to ground his story in something older, to juxtapose the "then and now" aspects.
* Chris wants to start "educating" the new readers in some of the history by doing callbacks. (Aaaaaand maybe that image inducer is going to be important again for something else....

)

Also, this doesn't have to be "the start of a beautiful friendship". This can just as easily be seen as a couple of old battle-buddies, who haven't been in contact for a long time, getting together and reminiscing during times of stress. Sure, it's a romantic gesture, but anyone who knows the first thing about Kurt knows what a sucker he is for romance of any kind. If you want to get his mind off a very, *very* upsetting situation, this is one bona-fide, tried-and-true way to do it. She can remind him of when they first met, how much more confidant he's gotten, and how the world has changed for the better, all in one fell swoop.

It doesn't have to be the beginning of a contrived, "no male and female in a team can exist without being attached" romance. I have faith that Clairmont and Davis aren't going to coat us with syrup here. After all, Kurt doesn't have the greatest track record with ladies. (It's better than Scott's, but that's another problem entirely....

). He's gonna be cautious in one way or another.

I think that midnight waltz was just that. If we were in some hard-core, sex-laden comic, it might have turned into a "mercy f***", but then they would have taken showers and gone their separate ways afterwards.

solomon · Post by **solomon** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 3:47 am

I agree with Maelstrom on all counts. That level of richness and complexity is something that has been very much missing from the books for years, even from X-Treme X-Men. I'm not saying that as a throwback to the Claremont years-of-old. I'm saying that as a mark of good story-telling, period. Uncanny 444 and 445 could easily be pages taken out of a novel, which is something that I can't say we've been exposed to in years. (I'd say "Inferno", as a matter of fact.) I think the Claremont/Davis is striking gold.

No, I don't see those two issues "bogged down" in continuity. Sure, there are references to it. The Kuroro scene. Warbird and Wolverine's conversation. (They're old friends, after all.) Even Rachel's off-hand mention of her time with Excalibur or her suspicions about her mom.

I know nothing about the Fury, which is just fine with me. Yeah, I know they've appeared before, but I'm letting CC reintroduce them to me. That's his job. I'm letting him do it. Someone doesn't know who Rachel is? Fine. Let them read the book and figure it out as the issues go by... or they can look it up online. In these days of internet, it's relatively simple to get a background on a character... if you could call it necessary to explain the story.

I like CC's style because it ISN'T written for kids. Is it in-your-face shock value like Morrison? No. But it doesn't have to be. Being asked to THINK is not unreasonable, in my opinion. Getting wrapped in "drama" such as Wolverine or Nightcrawler's feelings about what happened... or Rachel kind of "going home" again... Not only are we getting emotion, but we are getting a REASON for that too.

The "new readers" Marvel is so eagerly going after will be able to find their book. Fine. I see nothing wrong with letting the grown-ups have this book or Excalibur. Being in the performing arts, it has been my experience that most loyal patrons tend to embrace something that is well-put together and gives them reason to THINK. The others? They only hang around while something is "cool" and "hip" and jump ship the second it fades out of favor and tastes change.

No offense meant to Austen, but I don't think the flavor he brought to the book would have held the audience he reached for much longer. There were some gems (i.e. Northstar joining) and some flops (Draco). The inconsistency would drive the audience batty.

I'm hoping his run on X-Men works more to his favor. This is coming from a long-term fan who won't buy ANY book that he thinks is crap when looking through it in the store. (And I'll be honest... There was a lot of X-Treme I didn't buy. I left a lot of Uncannys and News on the shelf as well.)

Now, if only I could find a comic shop around here that has Astonishing and Excalibur... *sighs*

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 7:23 am

Bravo Solomon,
I couldn't have said it better myself.

And along with CC's writing, Alan Davis brings a subtlety in is art that has also been sadly lacking. I think these two are among the best teams any comic books aficionado could ask for.

mightiest_mortal · Post by **mightiest_mortal** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 1:51 pm

I agree with Crawler

(also agree that MOTU is cool

)

+Personally I dont really get the whole Kurt/Storm thing. It feels a bit forced, like the old Psylocke/ Warren relationship. They were on the team together for years and didnt say boo to eachother then suddenly they were flying about professing their love for eachother.

Id love to see Nighty and Stacy X on the same team again. I dont think theyd make a good couple but I loved that she could so easily accidently make him get all hot under the collar and nervous

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 4:32 pm

I know i said i wouldn't be back, but I don't really appreciate the implication that CC's writing is for 'intelligent' people. I don't like it, so i am not smart enough to get it? or too 'lazy' to go look everything up? whatever... I did read most of his stuff while doing research for this very site, so yeah I DO get all the references. i just don't see the point, when you can tell a good story without confusing new readers. i don't think it makes you think, the needless continuity references aside, he tends to spell everything out for you. or includes OTHER stuff for new readers, but in a totally ham-fisted way. middle of a fight, for instance: "have i explained yet how my powers work? no? well, you see, I can...." he includes stuff like that for new readers (when it should be plainly obvious in the art or from the effects with no convoluted wordy explanation) then defeats the purpose of that with all the continuity junk.

i like minimalist writing where you have to read between the lines. and no that doesn't mean just kowing what came before or knowing who everyone is and what their relationship is. i mean the writer assuming the reader is intelligent enough to figure out what a character's powers are by seeing the effects of them. by not holding your hand and pointing out every plot point. assuming readers are clever enough to put two and two together.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Mon Jun 07, 2004 5:49 pm

I just read #444, yes i am very late but i wanted to give my opinion.
I found the first pages a bit dull, and the rest of the comic was confusing (to me), maybe if Jill said CC only writes for "intelligent" people, i must be stupid, maybe is because i haven't pick a X-Men comic in almost a year .....i didn't get the X.S.E thing, i also felt like they wanted to explain a lot just in one issue, and seeing them back to spandex made me yawn, specially Storm's new costume it was a total lack of originality,
I had the oportunity to check the "kuroro" pages because SD was so kind in posting them at her journal, i enjoyed that pages so far, the Black Tom Cassidy part was more that clear for the people that have read that issues, like Amy said, but .....i don't know, maybe he's trying to encourage younger readers to get the back issues but i doubt that makes a difference.

The Drastic Spastic · Mon Jun 07, 2004 10:55 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Also, this doesn't have to be "the start of a beautiful friendship". This can just as easily be seen as a couple of old battle-buddies, who haven't been in contact for a long time, getting together and reminiscing during times of stress. Sure, it's a romantic gesture, but anyone who knows the first thing about Kurt knows what a sucker he is for romance of any kind. If you want to get his mind off a very, *very* upsetting situation, this is one bona-fide, tried-and-true way to do it. She can remind him of when they first met, how much more confidant he's gotten, and how the world has changed for the better, all in one fell swoop.

Well... maybe...

The "romance" rubs me the wrong way whether it's real or fake though. I honestly can't decide which would be worse. If it's real, it's pukeworthy and contrived. If it's fake... *shudders* Fake romance = HORRORS.

solomon · Post by **solomon** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 6:10 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
I know i said i wouldn't be back, but I don't really appreciate the implication that CC's writing is for 'intelligent' people. I don't like it, so i am not smart enough to get it? or too 'lazy' to go look everything up? whatever...

1.) I said no such thing.

2.) It was not in anyway meant as an attack on those who have different tastes, so please don't spin it that way. Because I chose to defend a writer's style does NOT mean I'm going after those who don't agree with it, any more than Austen fans are hunting down those who aren't.

I was taking issue with the arguments, NOT the people who made them.

You know what? I didn't like much of his X-Treme run. Why? With the exception of maybe the character development of certain characters such as Bishop or Sage, I thought the execution of much of the actual plotlines was stale. I left most of X-Treme sitting on the shelf.

I see a MARKED difference between X-Treme and Uncanny 444-445. The recent Uncannys are in my opinion miles ahead of X-Treme which were in turn miles ahead of Revolution. It's a level of richness I haven't seen from Chris in damn near 20 years... and even better, it references the past without redoing it again.

Now, some argue that the "new readers" Marvel is trying to reach will be alienated by the style because it is confusing and bogged down in continuity. I don't agree. It's simple as that.

Yeah, I'm not a new reader, but I know nothing about the Fury. I don't remember at all what the Kuroro scene was referring to. You know what? I don't mind. If I'm curious enough, I can look it up. Other new readers can look it up. Have I looked it up? No... because with a fresh eye, I look at it and say "reference to something long ago." I don't have to look up anything about the relationship with Carol Danver and Wolverine. I don't need to go and reread the first 75 issues of Excalibur. I've got everything I need right in front of me...

...and the non-comic-readers I've shown these issues to have everything they need to enjoy it in front of them. He doesn't spell out everything for me. Nothing in those issues mention explicitly "Phoenix powers" or "reabsorption" or "weather manipulation." I can look at it and see it. And if I couldn't understand for the life of me who Captain Britain or Meggan were or what they could do, yes I could look it up... but I don't NEED to know in order to enjoy the story.

I'm more interested in seeing Wolverine forced to make a bad choice... or wondering whether Nightcrawler was more mad at the policeman or himself... or - yes I'll throw it out - pondering yet again why the police are scared to hell of mutants, yet have no problem with Warbird, even though she could do just as much if not MORE damage than everyone else there.

I did read most of his stuff while doing research for this very site, so yeah I DO get all the references. i just don't see the point, when you can tell a good story without confusing new readers. i don't think it makes you think, the needless continuity references aside, he tends to spell everything out for you. or includes OTHER stuff for new readers, but in a totally ham-fisted way. middle of a fight, for instance: "have i explained yet how my powers work? no? well, you see, I can...." he includes stuff like that for new readers (when it should be plainly obvious in the art or from the effects with no convoluted wordy explanation) then defeats the purpose of that with all the continuity junk.

The way I see it, all you can do is provide an "entry point" for the new readers. There's no other way to do it when essentially no matter what, the new readers are walking into the middle of the story. If Claremont can save one or two pages by mentioning quickly that Cannonball's kinetic field makes him invulnerable while flying, then I say go for it, especially since some new reader might wonder strictly based on a visual what the difference really is between Cannonball and Rachel's powers... or wonder how come Emma thinks she knows what Rachel is going to pitch.

Why is Rachel pissed at Emma? (Because Scott was cheating on Jean with her before Jean died.) Why did Rachel drop Summers and take the Grey surname? (Probably because she's pissed at Cyke.) If the XSE had official badges, then why did Warbird's office have to confirm their legitimacy? (Probably because Storm or the U.S. Government foresaw that others wouldn't respect them.) Why is Jay pissed at Sam? (Probably because Jay is the second-oldest male Guthrie and Sam stepped up as the man of the house after his father died.. and with Sam and Paige gone, Jay's been acting oldest and probably didn't appreciate being bossed around by his older bro again.)

There's a lot that CC left for you to fill in the blank somehow, but that's in the emotions and dynamics of the characters, which has LONG been what I think his greatest strength is. So if he has to say "Kitty Pride shorts out Rogue's nervous system by phasing her hand into her spinal cord" in order to leave more room for Kitty and Jubilee to actually interact as separate characters (as opposed to bodies there for the sole purpose of selling books or taking up space) then I've got no problem, because at least I get to see people interacting.

i like minimalist writing where you have to read between the lines. and no that doesn't mean just kowing what came before or knowing who everyone is and what their relationship is. i mean the writer assuming the reader is intelligent enough to figure out what a character's powers are by seeing the effects of them. by not holding your hand and pointing out every plot point. assuming readers are clever enough to put two and two together.

And here is where I say that what you are looking at and what I am looking at are two completely different things, because even with the exposition or the dialogue, I see opportunities to dig deeper and read into what the characters are saying. Is it necessary for every writer? No. I wouldn't even say that it is necessary for Claremont. It just might not be his thing. (And to be honest, I think his run on X-Treme was more guilty of "his failings" than what we've seen on Uncanny so far.)

One of the best things I like about his writing is that if he's got a character around, that character is somehow contributing or doing something, albeit of varying importance, but at least something. No one is around for the specific purpose of picking their nose and standing around while everyone else is in the spotlight. Either they are actively doing something, responding to something, showing personality by action, etc. And he's for the most part respectful to the characters. Yeah, Wolverine is in his book. *groan* But he found a use for Wolverine.

Not to bash other writers, but how many times have people been upset about someone there just hanging around and not responding to what is going on... or some intrapersonal issue/confrontation coming out of the clear blue or developing overnight... or cases of outright continuity errors? (Such as Emma developing a British accent.) No, Claremont is not perfect, but he avoids many problems that have people screaming bloody murder.

No, I don't like everything he does... but I fail to see where my defending him automatically means I think other people are dumb or nonintelligent because they don't share the same tastes. If that's the case - where "disagreement" becomes synonomous with "insult" - then perhaps I'm the one who should be heading for bluer pastures.

Personally, I'd much prefer to just say we disagree and interpret things in different ways.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 4:21 pm

The "new readers" Marvel is so eagerly going after will be able to find their book. Fine. I see nothing wrong with letting the grown-ups have this book or Excalibur. Being in the performing arts, it has been my experience that most loyal patrons tend to embrace something that is well-put together and gives them reason to THINK. The others? They only hang around while something is "cool" and "hip" and jump ship the second it fades out of favor and tastes change.

'the grown-ups'? so the rest of us are on a lower level, the level of children? because some people 'jump ship' when they don't like it (and i fail to see how this is different than you not reading it when it didn't meet your expectations) they aren't real fans? that's what i took issue with.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:09 pm

One observation, I find it rather interesting how the second Chuck Austen is criticized, the admins whip out the â€œrespect creatorsâ€

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:11 pm

AGAIN - you are free to criticise Chuck's work. it's when people trash him as a person, take cheap low-blow pot-shots, or flame away with no reason, (we gave our reasons, extensively. and i wouldn't call it flaming anyway.) that we step in. it's just that you also shouldn't be surprised if you get an opposing view. just because i argue with you doesn't mean it is in any way administrative. me dishing out official warnings is administrative. me defending my point of view is not.

and i certainly plan on dropping it. not getting another issue, as i said before. but i will defend my point of view, and if people tell me things like 'oh you'll keep buying ot for Nightcrawler', i sure as hell am going to tell them that no, i will not. and why.

Crawler · Post by **Crawler** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:18 pm

For the record, I did not say Claremont was egotistical. I said the feel of his writing, to me, comes off more as he likes his own writing, not the X-Men characters.

He seems to disregard other people's writing because they're "his" characters. That's what I get from his writing.

And his writing IS outdated. It's old-fashioned. It hasn't changed with comics. It's still the same as it was 20 years ago and comics aren't. That's not bashing. That's my opinion on HIS WORK.

And your argument contradicts itself because Claremont's writing style much more befits a young reader, free of curse words, clean language, lots of exposition...yet the stories are dependent on you knowing what happened in the comics 10 years ago.

So it's written in a young readers style for readers that have been with it forever? THAT is my point. If it's for "grown ups," make it for "grown ups." If it's for younger readers, make it so that it's accessable!

Tatu · Post by **Tatu** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 5:42 pm

[quote]Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer
One observation, I find it rather interesting how the second Chuck Austen is criticized, the admins whip out the “respect creators

BAMFCentral · Post by **BAMFCentral** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 8:11 pm

Originally posted by Tatu
Originally posted by Shadow_Dancerbut it’s okay for Crawler to basically call Claremont outdated [...] If I prefer the older style of writing, than that’s my prerogative.
So..... he can't call CC's writing old, but you can because you like it that way?

Its all in the wording.... One person's snide comment is anothers point of view... Saying outdated to some may make them think of Overhill... Useless... Not of Value...

While saying "Older style of Writing"... thoughts like literature... classic... spring to mind..

There are several snide comments being slipped in by both sides... Intentially, I hope not. But when you are close to something, especially your opinion, you don't always see that you are belittling someone.... Which I have to say I don't think anyone is attempting they are just choosing the words that evoke a negative feel in some of the posters....

Claremont/Davis. I like the reunion. I am enjoying the stories as so Far....

Do I like it because it's "Outdated" or "Older writing style"???? No... I like the writing because it's Claremont.... I like the art because it's Davis. I collected Xtreme for a bit, but after the Loss of Beast and Betsy I quickly lost interest. I finally quite the title after the Rogue/Gambit stabbing... Not because I didn't like Claremont, but I just wasn't enjoying the book and I dropped it.. Just like I did with Uncanny, towards the end of Chuck's reign on the book. No meaness to Chuck I just could careless about the stores at that time... and only picked up the book if I needed scans or info from it...

While, overall I am enjoying the book. As with all things there are points I don't care for in the current Uncanny:

1) the X.S.E... why do we need that... is it a plot device that is going somewhere? A major show down with an anti-mutant group or something??

2)Kurt / Orroro. As an older fan, yes they flirted. No it never went anywhere before why now??

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Tue Jun 08, 2004 10:06 pm

Chris sure is an impulsive writer.

Priest-Kurt ? Sure, he tried it.

Now Kuroro. Why not ? He tries it too.

But I like it better when Kurt is flirting around with someone than when he's got the collar !

To Bamfette and BamfCentral : you're two reasonable persons.
God, even if Kurt became bald, had batwings and purple skin with yellow stripes, I just couldn't stop following this guy's adventures !

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 6:57 pm

Ok, so this is getting a bit controversial, but I did want to comment on the idea that this issue was inaccessable to the new reader. I started reading the x-men not long ago, after all the hype around the first movie reminded me of how much I loved the animated series when I was young. The first issue I ever picked up almost turned me off of the X-men forever... (luckily, I'd also picked up the first Essential X-men compilation, which, ironically, has the Kurt/Ororo scene referenced in 445.) Anyway, I don't really want to mention the title or writer, because this commentary isn't about the writer, but about all the comics, in general.

I picked up a second issue in an arc (like this one is), not knowing how the whole arc-thing worked (my limited knowledge of comics telling me that they were generally one-shot stories... teach me to trust my memory) Anyway, i was completely lost, and my general knowledge of the x-men (from the cartoon, mostly) was absolutely no help, because, although I could identify the main characters of the story, they were not in any sort of recognizable situation or position... (of course, I know now that, as the second issue of the arc, there was a bit of backstory I wasn't getting... also from the more recent run of the book)

So, anyway, my point is, that most people who pick up the book already have some knowledge of the x-men. (almost everyone my age watched the cartoon growing up, and I'll bet every new x-men reader, and a huge percentage of the long timers, have seen the movies.) these have a lot of the long-established bits in them, ie. the mutant hating, character personalities and interactions... (except for that whole rogue/iceman thing... but anyway...)

I went through the book quickly, and here are my guesses at what you'd need to know to understand the story, and what would confuse a new reader: (spoilerific!)
[spoiler]
First six pages: need to know the first issue of the arc.

page 7: There's Avengers references, but I doubt it interfered with understanding the story, if a new reader knew nothing of the avengers, they'd still understand that warbird's got rank on the officers, and they're good to go.

8: Carol references the New mutants and Kitty, but explains their importance to the story as well, you don't need to know who exactly they are, she tells you that they were kids who were x-men.

9,10: basic x-men stuff... I'd imagine someone who had seen the movie would get it.

11-13: the Kuroro bit... as it has been discussed to death above, I won't overkill here. Personally, I dont' think you really need to know exactly what they're referring to, only that they're remembering old times.

14: Sam recap... new reader wouldn't exactly understand, but it's just character development. As someone (sorry, forgot who) said above, no matter what a writer does, a new reader's still jumping into the middle of the story.

15: ok... this would confuse people, I admit. It's a reference to the Pheonix, after all, there's no way to make that not confusing *g*

16-22: a fight scene. Don't really need much help understanding this... I don't know much about the Fury, myself, and about half of what I do know comes from this issue. Maybe a newbie would have to take a bit to get the whole sunglasses-contact thing, but that was also shown in the previous issue
[/spoiler]

So... yeah. In summary... I think a new reader could easily understand this issue, provided they'd read the beginning of the arc, which is how every other comic book is written right now.

Ok, on a lighter note... [spoiler]Did anyone else enjoy rachel's reference to her mothers favorite song? "white room" = white hot room??![/spoiler]

Icey · Post by **Icey** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:10 pm

Bamfette - I'm sorry if my post offended you, I didn't mean it to. My point was simply that Claremont writes the story with use of past continuity. Those who aren't aware of it, aren't willing to go look it up, and is bothered by it probably should go try something else.

Some of the stuff Kurt and Ororo were referrencing during there little 'thing' I had no clue about. It doesn't interest me much, so I'm not going to look it up, but it doesn't bother me. And that's usually the way I work. If I don't know, I'm either interested or not. If I am, I look it up, if not, I ignore it.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Thu Jun 10, 2004 8:12 pm

I quite agree with you, scheherazade. And one can always enjoy a title without undestanding ALL the little details.

I've just read the latest issue and hey, I loved it !

Kurt and Ororo dancing in the sky ! The return of the Fury ! Braddock manor ! Nightcrawler getting angry ! Sage under attack ! And those drawings !!

:love

The best Claremont issue since the Khan saga in X-Treme.
It's now really difficult for me to say which X-title is my favourite.
Viva Reload !

-I guess it won't last, but I'm in comiX-heaven.

KurtnMeggan · Post by **KurtnMeggan** » Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:12 am

I loved the last issue of Uncanny that came out. The scene between Kurt and Ororo is one of thsoe things that longtime fans love to see and complain that they don't get enough of anymore and it's obvious why. Moments like this one really focus in on what the characters are about without it reading like a biography. Also, it tells you where a given relationship is at any moment in time and it's nice to get a refresh at this friendship. They may have been on the same team together not to long ago, but they sure didn't act very chummy at the time.

CurlyyHairGirl · Post by **CurlyyHairGirl** » Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:52 am

I loved the last one also. bacame an X-Men fan after the first movie came out...couple years after it came out actually, I had heard of X-Men before that and really didnt' care, but then I would go to book stores, read the really old Uncanny's and then I forced my mom to subscribe to Uncanny X-Men. I like the just good friend-to-friend relationship that Kurt and Ororo have and, personally love it that way. I'm glad to see that Davis and Claremont have brought that relationship back into the comics. I may love Nightcrawler in any form, but I rather like the original friendship over the whole Kuroro thing that X2 brought anytime!