Uncanny X-Men General Discussion Reload

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 4:19 pm

Actually, Scott was the ideal person to live happily ever after with the love of his life. He obsessed about jean from the first time he met her.. and the relationship went up and down with the tides of storytelling... until he finally married her.
If anyone got tired of the relationship, it should have been jean. Once guys get what they want... what they have dreamed of... they tend to stay happily in their comfortable rut. At least, stolid, sensible, stick in the mud, goody twoshoes guys like Scott.
what was done with him and Emma was done totally wrong. It COULD have been done right... but it wasn't. Morrisdon wanted it to happen and BLAMMO it happened... characterization be damned. The relationship between Jean and Scott would have needed time and delicacy and convoluted stuff to happen before it fell apart. they were not strangers to one another... they had lived in the same house for a long while, so there were few surprises as to personality there... even if you consider the effect the Phoenix power had on Jean. The traumas they had endured throughout their history should have bound them closer together... but the writer wasn't interested in pursuing THAT relationship... he was interested in destroying that relationship and building one of his own shallow depth... his own flawed fabric. And Marvel has perpetrated the mistake...although i sense cracks in the Emma/Scot edifice, lately... which is good...that structure needs to be demolished.
Of course, the only way to logically demolish it with any possibility of viability or believability in rescuing Scott's character is to make Emma have been controlling him mentally all this time. It would be in her bitchy character to do so... so the writing chores on this plot device should not stretch anyone's capabilities. It would only be in the how and why of Scott finding out about it that finesse would come into play. the original seduction and how it played out was done so badly that it drove thousands of fans, who identified with Scott, away! Cuz THEY knew he would NEVER have done that to Jean... not without a mental twist by Emma, he wouldn't. so if they can know that Scott was manipulated mentally and is still being held in thrall, they might come back... but only IF his character's honor and core personality is restored.
Personally, I don't care if it is restored as carelessly as it was besmirtched... I just want it to happen. that relationship between Emma and Scott casts aspersions on the concept of marriage and loyalty and faithfulleness... which the Scott/Jean marriage could have epitomized. They could have been worked as a viable couple within the marriage scenerio... with the spice of wolverine's possible influence to make that triad very interesting... and it would have been logical and in character ... especially as the characters had been developed for decades!
What Morrison did with the relationship was an abrupt file right or about face for no logical reason...he did i for his own gratificaion, as far as I can see. He had the capability of doing it well...he had done other storytelling well... but he dropped the ball and fumbled it into the sewer on this one.
There are characters in Marvel's stable that could be done well within the bounds of marriage... Scott was one of them. and a GOOD writer could have handled that relationship in very interesting ways. But that wasn't done. At all! OK they got married. Everyone cheered! Then did we see any development of the inner workings of that relationship? No we did not. the groundwork on personalities had been laid out for decades... but it wasn't even consulted or worked with. Just sloppy plot devices to undo what had been done before. I blame Marvel editorial for letting that happen and I bleme Morrison for doing it...and doing it so badly... so ineptly. We could have been shown the convolutions of marriage and how what seems to be a solid relationship can unravel if one party or the other changes. The logical party, as I said, would have bee Jean... who was never as obsessed with Scott as he was with her. And if he had tried to boss her around, with her virtually unlimited power of the Phoenix force, I could see HER getting pissed enough to shitcan the relationship or at least have problems with it. But then, this kind of thing is never written from the female's point of view... at least not well. scott had to be the injured party... Jean wouldn't talk to him... gimme a break! whine... whine... which only makes sense IF Emma were controlling his emotions and reactions and bringing him along covertly enough to tip him over in his own mind. But if anyone says that the Emma/Scott relationship is on the up and up... that it happened naturally... I will say them NAY! I , for one, still believe in Scott's stupid stolidness... every group needs a stolid anchor of heroic principle... and the X group's anchor of morality is not the Professor... it is Scott! Right now, he doesn't have any high ground to stand on from which to lead the group... and this is being brought out more and more. But is it his fault? that remains to be seen! Women characters get USED by male characters all the time... this seems to be a turnabout situation. I somehow don't think that the little boyos would want to give that much power to a female character... but we shall see. Claremont would surely give that kind of power to a female, but I am not sure that other writers are that bold... or like strong women as well as Chris does. LOL
We shall see, I hope...Every time I look at Scott and Emma together I want to puke... it is SO wrong. and, as I said, that's not just me. I get a lot of correspondence that says "Yeah, Morrison got Magneto ALL wrong... but what about Scott and Jean???" and I have to agree with them. I am more concerned with Mags, of course...of course... but the whole Scott and Jean and Emma pile of crap offends me as a married woman who DOES believe in marriage. I mean if you are gonna DO it... than stick with it beyond a couple of months! Dave and I will celebrate our twenty eighth anniversary in April! And I even gave the first dipshit I married twelve years to quit screwing up! I don't think Scott gave jean more than a couple weeks..X Universe time! So the whole scenerio just wasn't logical enough to be believable.

Paty

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Mon Dec 12, 2005 8:53 pm

I never really liked Scott... but I lost what little respect I had left for him when he went to Emma.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 2:59 am

As did a lot of readers. It was a total devolvement of the character...in one fell and nasty swoop! Those who hope for some redemption of Scott's character are rooting for it to all be Emma's faut...something that, given her well established personality, is not a stretch of the imagination at all.
I think it is the only plot device that they could use to explain Scott's totally out of character actions.
As I said before, The whole original plot device that Morrison used was so bogus as to be laughable...especially for die hard Scott fans. But it was NOT funny to them. they counted on Scott to be steadfast and loyal... and he was not. Now, some may say that this makes him more "human". But the point is that he is a HERO... and heroes are held to a much higher standard than the rest of us. They are what we STRIVE to be. And they must maintain their heroic mold. We NEED them to be steadfast in the face of temptation... and either Scott was coerced and manipulated by a powerful telepath or he has feet of clay and is a whining, drunken, slob of an adulterer. It's that simple. Can't be anything else. Die hard Scott fans are rooting for his having been USED and MANIPULATED. Otherwise they will leave for good. They can forgive his trusting Emma and falling victim to her power... they could not forgive him being so unheroic. and disloyal and morally bankrupt.
Marvel better figure this out and get the HEROES back on track or they stand to lose big time.
People want HEROES. We know all about cheating and feet of clay and disloyalty and rape, pillage and murder in everyday life. That's not what we read superhero comics for. We read superhero comics to follow the lives and adventures of HEROES! We want to take the lessons of loyalty and steadfastness in disaster and apply them to our own wretched lives and piddling traumas. And when we do... well... then we are being like Captain America or Cyclops or whoever... and we become slightly heroic, ourselves, cuz we overcome something we didn't think we could deal with.
If the fantasy heroes are not acting heroic, we lose interest in them...they are no longer our guiding lights... they are just another burned out fallen star.
I was never a big Scott fan, either. He was just TOO goody two shoes for me... but that was his nature... and a lot of people wanted and needed him to stay that way. You can play fast and loose with some characters.. like wolverine or gambit... who are rogues to begin with... but you cannot play fast and loose with your icons... and I don't think anyone at marvel understands this these days... or Morrison would not have been allowed to do what he did in the last half of his run on the X book. Not by a mature and responsible editorial staff, he wouldn't... but then... I don't think Marvel has a mature and responsible editorial staff any more... just fanboys who are pretending to know the biz and it's ethics.
At least that's what it looks like to me...
Paty

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Tue Dec 13, 2005 6:26 am

Unfortunately, some of us wanted some reason to take Cyke down a peg. I was just hoping for something much more innocuous than cheating on the supposed love of his life.

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 4:39 pm

I think Scott began that slippery path down when he left Maddie. I mean you aren't suppose to leave your wife and son for a women even if she is the love of your life. Gosh... this is beginning to turn in a Scott bashing area. Think about your favorite characters (thinks about Nightcrawler, Nocturne, Magneto and, Wanda). Anyway who's happy about Nightcrawler becoming leader in Uncanny?

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:28 pm

Me! Me! Me!

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Wed Dec 14, 2005 6:43 pm

Now if only he would become leader in Ultimate.

Paty · Post by **Paty** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 3:44 am

i don't mind the concept of Kurt being a leader. cyke was the natural leader of the group from the beginning... but Storm did a credible job for a while and others shoud have their chance, too.

the whole thing with Scott was his obsession with Jean. That was the Maddie thing. she looked like Jean and he used her as a substitute Jeqan until the real one came back and he finally understood that a Phoenix doesn't die... it rises again from it's own ashes...it's own death.
The obsession... and it IS or WAS an obsession... makes it hard for fans of the character to believe the shallow plot ploy that Morrison used to work his will on the characters. That whole thing just didn't ring true. Now, Scott has enough character flaws within the bounds of the obsession that it could have been made to work logically and in his character... but Morrison didn't do his research in any way shape or form... he just bullied his way through and forced the change...because he COULD. die hard fans refuse to accept it as he presented it. He could have done what he wanted logically if he had bothered to understand the character... he just didn't... cuz he is GOD and what he wants he gets...or else!
PTUI!!!
Yes.. Scott has committed a number of serious mistakes in his history... but all of them centered around his obsession and tunnel vision concerning Jean. this blind spot could have been used to good advantage to take him down a notch or two...but wasn't.
Personally, I think Scott is a boring character.. but adultery doesn't make him more interesting... it just makes him tawdry and low life. and he is really worth more than such a trashy end.

On the other hand... can we believe that Kurt will continue to be a leader? I have heard of a statement made on one of the newsboards that come next year sometime, Claremont is gonna get booted off Uncanny again. Now how this can be so is beyond imagination... since Uncanny is consistantly in the top ten... what more could you want? and chris is slowly, without the hype that marks most Marvel pushes.. buiding a loyal fan readership again. Can't have THAT...can we? Marvel moves on and strikes again. It is possible that Chris's contract is up and the jealous little boyos want him out before the movie makes him popular and powerful again. that would be their speed.
I hope someone there wakes up and stops this crap. It seems like every time Quesada takes a vacation, the asswipes try something... like releasing a rumor that this or that is gonna happen... they did it with Pether David and he called them on it and they had to back down. Claremont is not as bulish a personality... he has been walked all over before this... so maybe the fans willcry foul and show marvel up for the sneaky underhanded shits they are... and maybe not. I dunno...But, knowing their modus operandi, this is one rumor that I can believe. I hope it is only a ploy... cuz if Claremont goes, a lot of unhappy fans will say Bye bye to Marvel and good riddance. Me among them. I am not gonna waste my money on reding drek...and that seems to be an awful lot in evidence there these days. Same ol'...same ol'...
Paty

Post by **HoodedMan** » Thu Dec 15, 2005 1:05 pm

Originally posted by Paty
On the other hand... can we believe that Kurt will continue to be a leader? I have heard of a statement made on one of the newsboards that come next year sometime, Claremont is gonna get booted off Uncanny again. Now how this can be so is beyond imagination...

Well, hopefully it will be like so many rumors posted on newsboards, and will turn out to be false. Regardless, I think Kurt will stay a leader for a while; he most likely would not be made leader then yanked out of office in such a short amount of time.

-Northstar

Jeremys Iron · Post by **Jeremys Iron** » Fri Dec 16, 2005 10:23 pm

Originally posted by Paty
...
cuz if Claremont goes, a lot of unhappy fans will say Bye bye to Marvel and good riddance.
...

Maybe, maybe not. It's possible (in fact I'd say probable) that this is a decision that Marvel feels is in their best creative and financial interests and that there are no evil shadowy people making decision just to spite Claremont and his fans.

Maybe they think at this point Ed Brubaker brings them more than Chris Claremont does and I wouldn't dissagree. I would say that at this point in their careers Brubaker is a better writer than Claremont. Sure Chris wrote almost all of the most important X-Men stories but all of those are over a decade old; it's time to stop living in the past.

Brubaker is an innovative writer, who through titles like - Sleepers, Gotham Central, Catwoman, Authority: Revolution, and Captain America to name a few - that he has a skill for smart, well-paced stories filled with suspense, intrigue and action. Along with great dialogue and an attention to and care for characters and their history.

Furthermore, it's possible that Marvel believes (and I would think accurately) that the majority of Claremont fan are also X-Men completists. Whereas most Brubaker fans follow him rather than the book so that this represents an opportunity to increase the readers on the book.

In the end, if Brubaker ends up on the book it's not the end of the world: Uncanny gets an excellent writer and Claremont will still be writing New Excalibur and another, as yet to be created X-book so there will continue to be plenty of Claremont goodness coming from Marvel. Plus this might give Claremont a chance to write something other than an X-book. I feel like he is really being held down by his history on the X-Men; he needs to go and write some other characters. Perhaps a creator owned book where he can really spread his wings again.

But then, that's just my opinion...I might be wrong.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:48 am

Originally posted by confusedelf
Now if only he would become leader in Ultimate.

Unlikelyâ€¦seeing as heâ€™s a barely used, naive, 14-year-old homophobeâ€¦this is also a tiny little bit

Brubaker's the guy writing Deadly Genesis right? I can live with thatâ€¦at least he likes Kurt

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Dec 17, 2005 7:19 pm

Well said, Jeremy....

I really enjoyed Sleeper, if he was the new writer, I'd begin picking up Uncanny again.

idsunki · Post by **idsunki** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 5:31 am

That's really well thought out, Mr. Iron. You may indeed be wrong, but at the moment I'm going to strongly agree with just about everything you said.

And Nand, I'm not sure if he's a homophobe or a bit afraid of his own feelings, if you know what I mean wink wink nudge nudge I think you do.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 10:35 am

Originally posted by idsunki
Nand, I'm not sure if he's a homophobe or a bit afraid of his own feelings, if you know what I mean wink wink nudge nudge I think you do.

Yeahâ€¦and seeing as the March solicits say the two have more in common than they thoughtâ€¦still I hope the writer comes up with something more interesting than going down that road again (it certainly wouldnâ€™t interest me and would mean one less Marvel book for me a month)â€¦maybe they both have a thing for Wolverine? Kurt wants to BE him so he can get some Storm action (heâ€™s shown a definite interest in her) and Pete wants to be WITH himâ€¦

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 6:38 pm

A new writer for Uncanny ?... Why not. I currently enjoy Claremont's work, but Brubaker is always welcome... as long as he lets Kurt be a leader, of course.

And... sorry, I'm off-topic too, but I sure hope Ultimate Nightcrawler won't become a gay super-hero.
I'm not a homophobe -and I know some good friends of mine who would be pleased with this idea- but come on !
Kurt is a ladies's man, for Dave Cockrum's sake !

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 9:38 pm

I know some gay friends who would actually not be pleased about Nightcrawler being gay. I mean, the appreciation for character development that actually makes sense is not limited to any particular sexual orientation.

NachtcGleiskette · Post by **NachtcGleiskette** » Sun Dec 18, 2005 11:25 pm

I dunno, guys......considering this is Ultimate (which is completely seperate from everything we know about 616....generally an AU, no?), and really anything goes.....I kinda like the idea that Kurt may swing that way. Actually, when I read this thread about the possibility, I went out and bought the most recent issues to check it out (mind you, I don't read Ultimate). From what I've seen, either way it goes, it could make for some very very interesting character development....

And you know Vaughan and his penchant for unrequited gay love (Dr. Mann [well, for a while

], Karolina, etc...)

Anyway, back to Uncanny.....Claremont's leaving?! This means bad news....for my wallet. Looks like I'll be reading again!

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Mon Dec 19, 2005 1:40 am

Since I'm new to the comic book world I don't know the difference between any of the writers of Uncanny, can someone tell me?

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 12:56 am

well, Uncanny's ahd a lot of writers over the years, but Claremont's probably written the most. beyond that, what to say? every writer has their own flavour, their own style, it doesn't matter if it's Uncanny or not.... some readers like different takes over others. personally, i like the more 'modern' approach. others like the 'classic' approach. Claremont would fall into the 'classic' camp, with a lot of exposition and lots and lots of dialogue and high adventure. while Brubaker is very much in the 'modern' camp, with far less exposition and dialogue, and a darker more reserved tone.

Confizzle · Post by **Confizzle** » Tue Dec 20, 2005 1:41 am

Thanks for the information.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:37 am

Originally posted by Nandireya
Originally posted by confusedelf
Now if only he would become leader in Ultimate.
Unlikelyâ€¦seeing as heâ€™s a barely used, naive, 14-year-old homophobeâ€¦this is also a tiny little bit

So I'm not the only one who thought he was more phobe than homo.

How much depth is there to this rumor of some other guy writing Uncanny? Is it wishful thinking? I will be watching this space to see if I should start picking the book up again.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Jan 14, 2006 5:06 am

I'm not sure. I've heard that Marvel's taken an about face from last year and are going into full blown cater-to-the-fanboys mode, and as a result things are kinda regressing back to the 'classic' days.... and Brubaker doesn't exactly fit that...

still hoping, though.

Nandireya · Post by **Nandireya** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 7:27 am

Originally posted by Bamfette
...I've heard that Marvel's taken an about face from last year and are going into full blown cater-to-the-fanboys mode, and as a result things are kinda regressing back to the 'classic' days...

If that's the case...why the Storm/Black Panther thing? I've yet to hear anyone say they approve of it...

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 9:05 am

well, while they may be pandering to the fanboys, they can't read their minds, either. they couldn't know in advance people wouldn't like it.

Diablo · Post by **Diablo** » Wed Jan 18, 2006 1:01 pm

So it's official.
Chris Claremont is leaving, and Ed Brubaker steps in.
Comicscontinuum : Marvel sollicitations.

Does anyone know how and why Claremont got fired ?
I like Brubaker... but I don't know if it's good or bad news. I know I'm repeating myself, but I hope Nightcrawler will stay the leader of the team. Everytime he gets the responsability, it's only for a couple of months. It begins to annoy me. Seriously.