Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

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Post by Nandireya » Mon May 03, 2004 12:31 am

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO

[spoiler]Emma- Since professor Xavier is away on Sabatical, Mr. Summers and myself will be acting heads of school. Doctor McCoy and Miss Pryde will round out the senior staff along with Logan, who is....elsewhere.[/spoiler]
Wait a minute...if that's true...what about the other teams? What are they? Nothing but cannon fodder? The equivalent of those guys in red shirts on Star Trek? Or do they all see Ms Frost for what she is and want nothing to do with her?
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Post by Paty » Mon May 03, 2004 1:22 am

:mags
Hmmmm what I would like toknow is what happened to all the other kids? Last time we heard there were hundreds of students...and teachers... and staff...where are they?
And the school itself...what is going on with it? New mutants are housed intown...OK...what about the rest of the staff...Annie? Jugs? the other mutant students?
Hellllllllooooooooo???? Is anybody there? Does anybody care?
sigh...
doesn't anybody see this bitch for what she really is? Un professional counselor, marriage wrecker, false friend, bad teacher, egocentric little slut... You name it...she has perpetrated it...just about...
sigh... and she's the Headmistress of the school! what is going on? Heroes at Marvel used to stand for truth, justice and apple pie! Now they stand for murder, adultery and subterfuge...really great tradeoff there...
I would yank my kid right out of there in a split second! which, come tothink of it, may explain the dearth of students and staff...
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Mon May 03, 2004 7:53 pm

The way i look at Emma is that she may not be the most trustworthy member of the team, and it may come back to bite them in the ass, but as it stands, she's the only X-man with a background in education. If they want to run a real school instead of just using the word to cover up a paramilitary task force, then Emma becomes a necessary evil.

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Tue May 04, 2004 2:12 am

Originally posted by Paty
Heroes at Marvel used to stand for truth, justice and apple pie! Now they stand for murder, adultery and subterfuge...really great tradeoff there...
:mags
They did??? I thought all that perfect hero stuff was left for DC.. and it's why their heroes are BORING. Truth and justice are both really great, but they're just so bland when they stand alone. I'd rather have real heroes than some team of superdorks with vague and superficial differences, battling against the forces of evil every month. Black and white. Lame. Pass the subterfuge, please.
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Post by Paty » Tue May 04, 2004 2:58 pm

:mags
truth and justice are the fundamentals of heroes...it is what defines them in many aspects. Interesting heroes are NOT perfect...and it is how they deal with these everyday imperfections in attempting to be the best they can be in the truth and justice department that makes them NOT BORING.
I never said Marvel characters were perfect. Perish forbid. Every single character in Marvel's stable...OK...VIRTUALLY every character in Marvel's stable has some kind of glitch... some complexity that a writer can work with that makes them interesting. How peter parker deals with his guilt about Uncle Ben's death and his supposed part in it made Spiderman an instant hit. Captain America has moral conflicts about modern Ameican politics...Xavier has all this mental power he struggles not to use...yeah...right... well, supposedly NOT use in certain degrees and over use in others...but...Magneto is a villain with a reasonand a point to his actions that is not wholly unsympathetic...at least if he's written right. Daredevil has his blind spots... both literally and figuratively...no pun intended there...no...wait... yeah...pun intended! LOL
tony Stark fights alcoholism and at one time or another had a bad heart and was constantly having mini heart attacks and even major myocardial infarctions during battle...Yet he kept going cuz he was a hero...and heroes stand for truth and justice.
truth, justice and even sometimes the american way are the basics for american heroes. Truth, justice and the British way is for the brits...truth justice and the Russian way is for those dudes over there in what used to be the USSR...LOL without truth, you cannot have true justice...and without justice you can not have a society...youcan only have chaos and anarchy.
But it doesn't have to be boring. What writers do with personal and personality conflicts can make a character either dull as dirt or someone you will follow to the ends of the earth and believe in come hell or high water...because the writer has touched something deep within your own psyche...and the character has then become real and someone you can identify with.
That's where a lot of die hard fans have a problem with radical change to charaacters they have followed for decades. These characters are, in many cases, representative of THEM!!! so when you change the basic core of the character, it is like someone came along and cut out their heart and soul...and they scream bloody murder.
I am livid enough to slaughter Morrison...and a few other shitheads at Marvel...including Hardass... for what they tried to do to the Claremont Magneto. I know people who are frothing at the mouth about Scott's adultery with Emma...cuz Scott is THEM and they would never betray their wife! No matter what...hell or high water time here, folks! These people have vowed never to buy another X book until Scott has his honor restored by retconning Morrison's crap outta existance. they know the Scott they knew was so honorable and uptite that he would never have done that...not of his own free will! So his only out if they keep Morrison's crap is that Emma used coercion... her power...which is a nono among friends. Friends do not use their powers to lead other friends into wrongdoing...especially wrongdoing that could get them thrown inthe hoosegow. I am not sure about New York, but in some states, I believe adultery is a jailtime offense. Probably not NY...NY is adultery central...sigh...
BUT...adhering to a core concept of truth and justice is what makes the heroes...well...heroes!
Then again...some people like cherry pie rather than apple...so they are the peverse heroes...LOL
Does the fact that we know wolverine kills make him a villain? He started out as one...but so did Magneto. Both Mags and Logan know there are times when a warrior must kill an opponent...and they know the truth of the old addage "some people NEED killin'..." and, indeed, some people DO need killin' if only to make sure they don't strike again.Zaladane would have destroyed the world...Mags had to kill her to save everyone! Someone lobbed a nuclear missle at him because he wanted everyone tolay down their weapons and disarm before they destroyed the world with their nuclear capability. He wasn't gonna strike back? would youhave struck back if someone lobbed a nuke at you? I would! I'd have sunk that sub just as quickly as he did. the fact that he didn't pluck out the sailors and lob them into the ocean to be eaten by sharks or rescued...improbably that... was what supposedly defined his villany...but self defense is allowable within any warrior code...even withincivilian code. Sometimes Mags has fallen into a totally villainous category...but only when written byinept writers. Of course, we could make the case for Logan falling into this category,too... It's all in how the writer handles it...and what his and editorial's take on a character is.
The thing about characters core concepts is that once they are established, to have the character act outside of those bounds causes a big glitch in the suspension of disbelief that the comics work on. You can take a character on a wild ride...but his core personality is the light that must shine through the darkness and guide him back to his true path. Magneto's real personality wasn't really established untilClaremont did it...and gave him a reason for what he had done up to that point and why his behavior changed after a certain time period. A logical reason!
Gambit would have no trouble reconciling adultery in his nature...he is a philanderer of the first water...but not Scott. We believe Gambit doing it...we don't believe Scott doing anything like that.
In the interest of trying to forcibly update some of the characters...and in some cases take them back to their simplistic beginnings... radical changes were made ...unwisely. You can change a character's viewpoints and core concepts over a long time with logical reasons for the change..because people can and do change their minds.But it has to be lgical and a n observable reason within the core personality to achieve that change as a growth pattern....not just an arbitrary change.
Now, in the interest of trying to win back the thousands of readers..longtime readers...with lotsa money...Marvel has issued the dictum to bring the characters in line with the eighties personifications...the heroic personifications that were so lucrative back then and upon which the movie characterizations were based.
No, it doesn't mean the characters willbe boring...that is totally up to the writer. Good storytelling will show the conflicts both inner and outer, and keep us rivetted. The story is still how the characters deal with problems. But you have to have a baseline...a core of behavior precepts that define each character to start with. And in many cases, these were established long ago.
Sspidey hates guns! Given! Marvel management once tried to merchandise a Spider man cap pistol...and the whole bullpen stood up en masse and shouted 'NO!! NEVER!!!" aND THE EDITOR AT THE TIME WENT TO MANAGEMENT...WHO DIDN'T HAVE A CLUE... AND EXPLAINED THAT WHILE THERE WERE MANY OTHER CHARACTERS THAT WOULD BE PERFECTLY RIGHT TO HAVE THEIR LOGO ON A GUN...LIKE THE PUNISHER... sPIDER-mAN WAS NOT ONE OF THEM!!! Core concepts...defines the character.
And truth and justice define a hero.
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Post by scheherazade » Tue May 04, 2004 4:52 pm

Originally posted by Paty
Gambit would have no trouble reconciling adultery in his nature...he is a philanderer of the first water...but not Scott. We believe Gambit doing it...we don't believe Scott doing anything like that.
Adultery is what Gambit is doing with Rogue... He's technically still married to Belladonna... but it's justified, 'cause she tries to kill him a lot. *g*

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Post by Megalictis » Thu May 06, 2004 8:19 pm

I thought they were divorced. And is she still alive?

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Post by scheherazade » Thu May 06, 2004 8:37 pm

Originally posted by Megalictis
I thought they were divorced. And is she still alive?
I'm pretty sure she's still alive... And they never really got divorced, although they'd probably have no problem obtaining an anullment or anything. He thought she was dead for a long time (and she kinda was, just not in the permanent way) so divorce would have been kinda redundant.

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Post by Paty » Fri May 07, 2004 8:46 pm

:mags
Uh huh... and Gambit knows she's alive and knows he's still married to her...cuz there ain't no divorce in the Catholic church. and the biggest church in the big easy is the catholic church.. so the probability that they got married within church strictures is high. And can you picture Gambit not consummating the marriage? No boffo on the wedding night, if not before??? Yeah... I can just picture that..maybe if you castrated him outside the bedroom door...
so no annulment. If she had been declared legally dead...maybe a civil divorce would have been granted...but i don't see Gambit getting or having gotten one.
So... yeah..still married to Belladonna means ADULTERY for Gambit, too. But because of Gambit's characterization all along, this is no biggie...is it? He plays free and loose with morality...it is part and parcelof his character. It is not part and parcel of Scott's character..and Morrison didn't bring him around to that point of view in a believable way...sorry...too fast and totally too inept rationales...
Gambit says his heart belongs to Rogue, but has a dalliance with Storm. Storm is culpable here too with her only out being that she grew up in the wilds of africa with little or no constraints on her...as a goddess... to adhere toany of the dating/marriage/ social rituals of the tribes surrounding her. She made her own rules...so to speak. she understands the rules that the civilized society of america is supposedly adhering to, but she also sees widespread disregard of those rules...so it would seem they are not hard and fast...at least not for those who choose not toabide by them...like Gambit.
what would rogue think of that little dalliance?she knows what kind of cad Gambit is...and has always been. does her relationship with Storm invite this kind of disrespect for her territorial rights where Gambit is concerned? Does it matter to her?
We don't know do we? Maybe if rogue finds out, we'll find out as well.
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Fri May 07, 2004 9:27 pm

Originally posted by Paty
:mags
Uh huh... and Gambit knows shes alive and knows hes still married to her...cuz there aint no divorce in the Catholic church. and the biggest church in the big easy is the catholic church.. so the probability that they got married within church strictures is high. And can you picture Gambit not consummating the marriage? No boffo on the wedding night, if not before??? Yeah... I can just picture that..maybe if you castrated him outside the bedroom door...Paty
:mags
On the day of his wedding to Bella Donna, her brother, Julien – who opposed any kind of peace between the Guilds – challenged Remy to a duel. Remy won, apparently killing Julien and, although he had nothing to be guilty of, the Guilds demanded he be banished. Remy departed, not even asking his new wife if she wanted to join him. [Gambit (3rd series) #1, X-Men (2nd series) #8]

Nope- wedding wasnt consumated

Then i believe a bunchg of other stuff happened- she died- but then was found to be in a coma, Gambit revived her with an " elixer of Life", but she lost memories (which Rogue may or may not be responsible for), decided to make Gambit her enemy...

Then she tries to kill him, they make up and decide to go thier seperate ways....

Ok- i think thats all the bio had on them. So yeah- Theyre still technically married, but niether one is holding the other to their vows, and teh marriage was unconsumated. (whether or not it was preconsumated is another matter entirely, and with Gambits record- it probably was)

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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Sat May 08, 2004 6:31 pm


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Post by scheherazade » Sat May 08, 2004 8:31 pm

Originally posted by Nightcrawler ZERO
Ok- i think that's all the bio had on them. So yeah- They're still technically married, but niether one is holding the other to their vows, and teh marriage was unconsumated. (whether or not it was preconsumated is another matter entirely, and with Gambit's record- it probably was)
When Rogue absorbed Belladonna's mind, she got the memory of Belladonna and Remy being together... I don't have the issue though, so I'm not sure when this is supposed to have taken place

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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Mon May 31, 2004 5:07 pm

I just read and re-read Astonishing X-Men cover to cover. I must say I quite enjoyed it, it was a very good read. It's a good start for Joss Whedon. It didn't knock my socks off, or show me something I may not have seen before, but it made me enjoy what he did. Whedon is usually good at building plots/storylines, and I can't wait to see what he has in store for us in his 12 issue run.
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Post by Bamfette » Mon May 31, 2004 5:54 pm

yeah, i got it the other day as well, and quite enjoyed it. really, my only nitpick is Beast's costume... it's just not doing it for me. not sure what else to say, i just found it to be very solid overall :)

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Post by Northstars Love » Mon May 31, 2004 5:57 pm

I can't get over the comments that Wolverine made in Astonishing. I'm still laughing

[spoiler]Scott was giving them a speech and Wolverine said to everyone, "Here comes the tights." LMAO That was too damn funny! Not only once but twice he said that! Gotta love the guy! I think he prefers the leather. Actually Wolvie looks better in it! heh...[/spoiler]


I loved this issue. For many reasons. A must on your mutant book list! :thumbup

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Post by Crawler » Mon May 31, 2004 6:20 pm

I just read this a couple days ago...

It wasn't bad. I think it's a good start. Often, it seems that the beginning is the hardest part to create.

My only biggish problems were Beast's new hipcast/diaper/uniform (though maybe I just spend too much time in hospitals and nursing homes) and how deliberate it all seemed to me. Of course, it doesn't bother me too much because this is the start. He's setting up his pieces, so it's okay to be deliberate.

There's a few other things I had little arguments with, but nothing large enough to turn me off to the whole thing.

I wont make my decision to keep or drop it until I read a few more issues.
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Post by Northstars Love » Mon May 31, 2004 6:37 pm

Originally posted by Crawler

My only biggish problems were Beast's new hipcast/diaper/uniform (though maybe I just spend too much time in hospitals and nursing homes)

I did notice that C. I couldn't figure that out myself. Why such an ugly costume? I had to do a double take. Poor Hank. :(

Of course it could have been Wolverine wearing it. LOL!! I'd love to see his reaction to that custome! :LMAO

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Tue Jun 01, 2004 3:15 am

I thought it was funny that Beast was wearing one of Emma's old costumes. Doesn't fit him too well, does it? :\

I liked Emma's line about rating below a corpse.

Art was okay. I like the realistic style but it didn't seem quite right in places, oddly set faces or something.
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Post by KurtnMeggan » Wed Jun 16, 2004 4:20 am

While I wasn't teribly impressed with Astonishing's first issue (too much hype, IMO), I'm very pleased to see that Whedon appears to be giving the Beast a fair deal.

With Morrison he always seemed a little too far buried beneath the others in the book. Whedon, in the first issue at least, balances him well amongst the other characters.
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Post by Diablo » Fri Jul 02, 2004 8:41 pm

Issue#2 was great.

I like the tension between the X-men.

It's still difficult for me to conceive that Wolvie is everywhere at the same time but I guess I'll get used to it. :rolleyes

It seems [spoiler]Beast's future won't be shiny at all. I don't know what Whedon has in store for him, but I guess he'll suffer, just like he recently did during Morrison's run.[/spoiler]

The only thing I didn't really enjoy is the new villain's look. He's quite ridiculous.
Fortunately, [spoiler]Lockheed kicked his green ass ! Yes ! At last, everyone's favourite X-dragon is back, with a vengeance !! [/spoiler]

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Post by scheherazade » Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:41 am

I loved [spoiler]Both Kitty&Lockheed scenes. Both the x-dragon bit and the part where the reporters asked her about "the nature of her relationship with the bat". [/spoiler] I'm so glad Kitty's Whedon's favorite; I identify with her the most, so I like seeing her getting all these good bits!

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Post by KurtnMeggan » Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:56 am

I liked the second issue much better myself. Everything just seemed to click better. And Lockheed's return was great!

And as for Beast, I'm just glad he's being sort of included. He's seemed lost in the background a lot in recent years.
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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sat Jul 03, 2004 4:56 pm

Personally I hope that Beast doesn't either die or become an overly depressed woe is me nut bag. Not to be a jerk, I miss the real Beast. The fun loving easy to get along with, always has your back Beast. He was the heart of the team, and always showed a beacon of light in the teams darkest hours. However now he's on his way to becoming the overly depressed woe is me nut bag. I just hope that we can soon return to our everloving Beast from yesteryear. Also I kind of hope the rumors prove true that Beast will [spoiler]transform back into Blue Hairy Ape Beast, and nolonger be Blue Hairy Feline Beast.[/spoiler]
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Post by scheherazade » Sat Jul 03, 2004 5:50 pm

I hope so! I really liked [spoiler]the last scene, where Beast asked if the cure worked. I think it is the response he should have, both as a geneticist and as someone looking for a cure for his secondary mutation. [/spoiler]

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Post by KurtnMeggan » Sun Jul 04, 2004 8:26 am

Where did you hear that rumor? I thought it was just a fanboy wish, not a legitimate rumor...
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