Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

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Post by CurlyyHairGirl » Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:11 am

[spoiler] I wanna know what Emma's deal was on that last page...*erg*
As well as finding out exactly who that mutant or X-Man was that would destroy Breakworld.
[/spoiler]

So many things to explain out still...guess I'll have to wait.
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Post by Paty » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:15 am

:mags
Heh...heh... Dave couldn't be happier. colossus was a favorite of his and the fact that they "killed" him didn't set well at all. He couldn't do anything about it, of course... but he thought it stupid.
Well... killing characters IS stupid. they are merchandisable properties and belong to the company. If a writer doesn't want to deal with them, they should be written out... sent off, caught in a timewarp or something... but not the "dead" thing... cuz bringing trhem back... and you know they WILL be back cuz they are a financial entity within the company's roster and have trademarks and copyrights to be protected, so they have to be used within certain time constraints... is difficult. SO...Killing them is stupid and the editorial staff shouldn't be allowed to allow it. but then again, no one is minding the store there... there are NO editors worthy of the title... and the parade of shock deaths and unlikely resurrections continues.

I am glad colossus is back, too... I liked the character and the "thing" between him and kitty may just be resurrected, too. fine by me. As I understand it, Piotr's "sacrifice" to save mutantking won't really be affected. He did make the sacrifice, fully expecting to die... that doesn't take away from his noble spirit and the juxtaposition of him curing the virus that killed his sister. That piece of storyline still has validity. It's not his fault he didn't die permanently. LOL...
Blame science... or maybe it's the Jesus thing all over again. Y'see... back in the good ol' days, you just didn't go around killing characters. It was too hard to think up reasonable ways to bring them back. If they were popular characters with followings, you really didn't kill them... you could hint at it or let the readers THINK they were dead.. But, like thunderbird... no body,no foul... they could bring him back more easily than Colossus... cuz no body...leaves room for doubt. But a body? Ashes returned to Russia? that was stretching it a great hunk...but handled nicely...especially when colossus thanked Kitty for doing that...LOL

It ain't all bad. some parts were done very well... and very plausibly...it's just stupid that it had to be done at all! sigh...

Anyway, Dave is happy... I am fine with it... and the hordes of Colossus fans out there are setatic, I am sure!

LOL
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Post by Diablo » Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:20 am

I'm happy, really happy for Dave and for you, Paty.

But still, I would like to see important characters die. It's what Joss Whedon did on Buffy and Angel, and it added spice. It's a reflection of real life. People you care for, you love, disappear and don't come back. Never.

But it's always the same problem : everybody doesn't want his favourite characters to die. And when it's their creations, it doesn't help ! If I had created a character I liked a lot and that someone made him disappear years later, it'd be pretty mad !
In a perfect world, only creators would be allowed to end the story of their creations.
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Post by Paty » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:31 pm

:mags
Uh huh... but it ain't a perfect world... nowhere near it! Especially with the characters created in the early years of comicdom. You developed them and introduced them and the company got the copyright... which meant the company owned them and you got nothing for your imagination used in creating them in the first place... except page rate at the time you drew them. Later, creators were given a creaters rights inclusion on some merchandising... like action figures... but that was never grandfathered to include stuff already created for and owned by the company. the majority of Dave's creations were in his first run on the books... well before creator
s rights. and having the creators rights... such as they are... doesn't give you any say at all in what is done with them, how they can be warped and changed or anything else. Only establishing very strongly the core personality of the character holds any weight at all... and not even then if someone wants to change it. Dave hated the religious angle to Nightcrawler and wouldn't go along with it as long as he was on the book. Nighty was HIM... and dave is certainly not religious in any way. romantic... yes... but religious? Not on a bet! So the whole "priest" thing and his religious makeup, as finely ironic as it is, with a demon lookalike being religious in the good old fashioned way was, to Dave, ludicrous as well as right out. But they did it anyway. PTUI! You really don't
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Post by Paty » Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:37 pm

OOPS... DAMN COMPUTER STOLE MY POST... THAT'S BEEN HAPPENING AN UNCOMFORTABLE AMOUNT OF TIME LATELY...

aNYWAY... YOU DON'T wanna KNOW what I think about that matter.

Dave is happy Colossus is back...me too. I just wish that editorial would get it's act together and not do so much killing. It's passe...and these days there is entirely too much of it, so it loses it's shock value anyway.
BECAUSE... you know... the character is a merchandisable property and will be back!

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Post by Diablo » Sun Nov 14, 2004 7:50 pm

Some characters will die -the recent ones or the secondary ones.
Pyro and Moïra have disappeared, I think we won't see them again. Secondary.
But someone like Colossus... you know he'll come back. Sometimes it takes years, even decades -see Norman Osborn or Jean Grey... but they're back.
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Post by Paty » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:33 am

:mags
Heh heh... Moira is back... if only in spectral form... but she doesn't act like a ghost... more like a sentient projection...so is she really deceased? Or shall we see her again in the flesh...my bet is we will! sooner or later... but we'll see her spectral form for a while, for sure.

Colossus being in the second movie and possibly the third means they really HAD to bring him back in his original body... or face a lot of criticism...not that that ever disturbed these little idiots. they're GODS ... they can do anything...yeah...right...

PTUI!!

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Post by Diablo » Mon Nov 15, 2004 7:02 pm

Naaaah, Moïra won't show up again I think.
Too bad for Charley and Banshee !

Hey, we haven't seen Banshee in years. I hope he'll be back soon ! Another character from Dave's first Uncanny run that I like.

I know, it's a little off-topic but come on ! It's just the two of us here Paty these days ! LOL !

Ok, I won't forget Curlyyhairgirl...;)
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Post by Paty » Mon Nov 15, 2004 11:54 pm

:mags
Yeah.. I was noticing that... where did everybody go? Nobody wanting to talk about Astonishing? Hmmmmm...
Well, we might as well talk about what we want to...off topic doesn't faze me, dearie...I get off topic at the drop of a hat...LOL

I would love to see Banshee again, too...where did he get to? I lost track of him a long time ago...any idea where he is? I thought i saw him in that slew of characters in the latest avengers... but going back and looking, I can't find him... so probably not... although I have seen heim somewhere recently I think... just cannn't remember where.
banshee was another character who started out as a villain and was reworked to be on the right side of the fence... and it made him much more interesting. Well... maybe we had better keep our mouths shut... they might take it into their heads to off him just cuz we like him...sigh

That's about the tenor of the mentality there these days...
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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Tue Nov 16, 2004 1:26 am

So- anyone care to make a guess as to who the X-Traitor/One who will destroy Breakworld is? It looks like Whedon's setting Emma up for the fall, or at least having her be poseessed.......

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Post by Dezzy Dragon » Tue Nov 16, 2004 10:12 am

To tell the truth I don’t like Emma. Not one little tiny bit. She always seems to have a different agenda and she is just so untrustworthy, not to mention very manipulating.

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Post by Diablo » Tue Nov 16, 2004 12:00 pm

Look at that ! We begin to talk off-topic, and suddenly, the posters are back ! LOL !!

To Paty : Banshee was last seen in Uncanny 406 or
so.
Devastated by Moira's death, he was training a cast of X-Villains he wanted to turn to "the good side". But he was betrayed by Mystique who hurt him badly. He's got no powers now... again !

Regarding Astonishing : Emma is a first choice as a traitor. But if you know Whedon's writing, you can expect surprises...
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Post by Paty » Tue Nov 16, 2004 7:44 pm

:mags
Well... anyone can have a bout of laryngitis... and with Banshee, it would affect his power...now wouldn't it? LOL I would still like to see him regain with his powers restored..especially if the phantom Moira is more than just a phantom. she doesn't act like a ghost to my mind... but then if she is a projection of Xavier's mind, she wouldnn't. But she seems to show up and act independantly of him when he isn't in control of that humongous mental power...soooooo...

Yeah... I like Emma for the traitor role... although I have no hopes that they will do that...it is too obvious. We will probably be stuck with her and the illicit "romance" forever...sigh... just to insure Morrison's feelings aren't hurt.PTUI! My vote is for her ...for sure. I really dislike this smarmy slut. I think she pollutes the very air at the X mansion... and sullies the rep as well as the person of Scott. Now, I was never a big Scottt fan... but what was done between him and Silver Bitch was wrong. And it was done for all the wrong reasons. It could have been done if it had been done carefully and well. But the writer didn't do that. He shoved an illogical and badly planned thing down the throats of readers.. who were rightly disgusted and alienated... and expected them to acceed to it!
As far as I am concerned, Emma is there on sufferance...our sufferance. We're ALL suffering...and I would show that ithe whole bloody romance and secuctioon was all her fault, cuz she used her come hither power on Scott to get him away from Jean... not because she LOVED him... but for mean and jealous reasons. That's not a big stretch given her history and characterization up to the point where Morrison made her and Scott an item. It was all in HOW it was done...not necessarily WHAAT was done. Morrison was trying to do with Emma what Claremont did with Magneto. But he gave her no backstory which would give us any reason to trust her or think other than askance about her motivations. Backstory came later to mollify fans ...with questionable effect. I think the basic problem that a lot of fans have with Emma goes right back to this lack of coherent backstory and motivational construction. but that's just Morrison's ineptitude as a storyteller. He merelly said"this is so because I said it is so..." and expected the readership to buy it. well some bought it cuz they would buy anything this writer...and I use that term very lightly, here... proffered. some bought it because it was new and different. A lot of readers were disgusted, dismayed, irate and devestated. these were a lot of the old time readership who liked Scott and Jeqn just fine, thank you. these were the "True love can work and be eternal" folk. the same people who loved the interaction between the Hawks over at DC...and the old tv show, Mr. and Mrs. North. the kind of people who thought long term relationships could be interesting and alive and vital.
The sexual tension that makes things interesting between unmarried folk is based on possible loss...at least in part. something is going on between two characters and ...ut oh...here comes a possible threat to the relationship. Will they break up? Will the new guy/gal win the one lover away from the first possible partner? these are the trials mirrored from real life and what draws readers into the intricacies of a relationship and invegles them to get emotionally involved with the characters.
But building these kinds of tensions...these kinds of loyalties and gut and heart wrenching scenerios is a time consuming and delicate thing if it is to be believagle and effective. If you don't intend to stick around for more than a couple years, you won't have time to coherently and believably change long term relationships. And that is the heart of the Scott/Emma thing... as well as the heart of Emma as a person to be trusted...a heroine.

No way... not in my book. sorry, all you Emma fans out there. It wasn't done right or well... so I simply cannot suspend my disbelief that far. and this total slut hasn't done anything to change my mind. She is being and has been written and drawn expressly to cast doubt in our minds. the hidden smirks and arrogance. grates on the senses and builds a lack of trust . Morrison showed her as sympathetic and trustable...but at the same time, she was also portrayed as scheming and snitty...as a USER of children to get what she wanted and damn the consequences. It is very possible that Morrison didn't understand the picture he was painting here. But if he was using someone as a model here, and accurately portraying her attitudes, I don't want to meet this person! How can you like a person portrayed like this? Mean spirited, egocentric, snide, secretive, and arrogantly for her own advancement.
The reader is yanked back and forth without mercy. The same thing happened to Mags during the Hardass pogrom years...back and forth. But Claremont had laid down such a rational explanation for his changeover from the Stan Lee days, that we had accepted and embraced the change in his motivations and behavioral patterns. It was logical and understandable and sympathetic. It was developed over years...not months... YEARS! It became a logical progression of the character's formation...not something dropped in our laps overnight. the unknown friendship between Mags and Xavier was a logical plot device that was broached and then successfully built on...slowly. It was a bacground and underlying plot device that expaained so much of some of the interaction between the characters...even goingback to the SL days, if one chose to see it. It was so firm a characterization that it took a decade of dynamiting to shake it and set it up for the abomination that was Planet X... and which later had to be explained away... becaust that storyline was so illogical and destructive it had to go!
But we get no such buildup with Emma. and her depiction since then has only added fuel to the fire of distrust. In real life, you KNOW a bitch of this calibur is gonna betray her friends when she sees an advantage to herself in it. In fiction, you are just waiting for WHEN it will happen...not IF.

With Emma, it is WHEN...not IF. At least for me...

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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Wed Nov 17, 2004 4:42 am

Well, when Whedon first got Astonishing, one of the first comments he made in online interviews was that he would continue the Scott/Emma relationship, but as a story about someone being in a relationship taht they shouldn't be in. So far we have seen Emma undermining his authority and his confidence.

I doubt she'll be evil of her own accord.... but I could see her as being a puppet for another villain.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Wed Nov 17, 2004 9:12 am

I agree with Paty Emma is evil thru and thru now don't get me wrong I like Emma but I like her as a villen not as a hero

I for one hope she is the traitor but I do hoever think it is the Shadow King calling the shots

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Post by Diablo » Wed Nov 17, 2004 10:41 am

Trust Joss Whedon to do things right. His characters, relationships are always well built.
BUT I don't think he'll stay a long time in the X-universe. He's got too many wonderful characters of his own in his mind.

For me, Scott deciding to leave Jean for Emma has something to do with him merging with Apocalypse some years ago. During a brief amount of time, he became a really darker person.
As for Emma, she was co-head mistress with Banshee, leading Generation X, before joining the X-Men. The reason why she's a teacher at Xavier is because she has lost her Hellions students years ago and never really recovered.
So you see, Emma's change didn't came totally out of the blue when Morrison came aboard. But yep, she's a bitch and in real life, she would act like one.
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Post by buri103 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 9:07 pm

Oh, man, Sh*t's going down.

I haven't been able to really read it, but from what I've gleaned, it was generally good ending to a yearlong run...


And Scott screams at Emma! Finally! From what I've heard.

I'd buy it just for that alone.

Finally , Scott reached over and grabbed his balls back from her vise-like grip.
I was starting to think he should just die so I wouldn't have to watch him be a wimpy little co-headmaster-non-leader.

I never really liked this X-men series all that much, not to say it wasn't good, but none of my more fav characters were in it. ;) :nocturne :psylocke :storm

But I don't know, *Shrugs*massive displays of power always get me....good.


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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:19 pm

So you're an Uncanny fan? Judging by your favorite characters I'm sure the book is right up your alley... I like this book the best (meaning the Team titles, not best book overall... that'd be Nightcrawler).. it has a good cast and the writing and art are great.. this is the only reason I'm still going to be buying comics after Nightcrawler is cancelled:( .. Uncanny has been:shakeno lately (though Nocturne has shown up in a scene reminiscent to Nightcrawler in X2, which made me smile a tad) and I've been kinda disappointed with House of M (could be because I've missed two issues though), so I think Astonishing is keeping my interest in X-Men alive:D:bamf
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Sat Sep 03, 2005 12:45 am

This week's Astonishing was pretty......astonishing ;) (omg I am a dork)

But seriously...I was getting pretty doen with this whole "OMG the danger room is alive!" crap....but by the end of the issue, had to reel in my jaw. Not that it was 100% unexpected, but at the same time...you just don't expect it. So, the question is.....[spoiler]who is Emma decieving?[/spoiler]. I'm not sure the answer is cut and dry....

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Post by Paty » Sat Sep 03, 2005 7:08 am

:magneto
Awwww...crqpola!!! Where the hell are my nice dark blue backgrounds? don't you guys realize that visually impaired people cannot easiy read white print on pastel backgrounds? We need high contrast ..you know...light on dark or dark on light!!! I used to love Nightscrawlers format cuz the pale blue print on dark blue was so easy on the eyes... Of course, red print on the dark blue was hard to read...not enough contrast... but what the hey... but white on pastel is yucky!

For me, the only reason to bring Emma into the X fold was to have bustiers derigeur clothing for women. It opened up a whole bellybutton and garder thing for the boys...and brought the forty second laeaze element into an otherwise good book with interesting stories. What? not enough violence, you gotta sex too? PTUI!
Oh, yeah... adultery and the death of children...gritty stuff. No... jst shock value and puerile storytelling. Although in the recent issue, I did like Scott snarfing at Emma for a change. He's been sooooo under her control and wussy I have been sick to my stomach. She's such a slut. and I don't care why or how she lost the Hellions... she has always acted snotty and bitchy...so she deserves a little emotional trauma in my book. But that's just me.
I don't care what kind of life changing experience you give a character... if they don't change their actions as a result of the emotional trauma... if they keep acting like total whacked out bitches... then I don't buy their transformation one iota! And to have formerly sane and rational characters buying that kind of shallow characterization really just pisses me off. The children may think they are writing deep things... but if you know good characterization, you can see the mud puddle for the shallow stuff it is and just sneer at it when they hype the DEEP storylines and DEEP characterizations. A bitch who repets but still acts like a bitch isn't a heroine in my book. Pretty is as pretty DOES. My grandmother taught me that when I was very young... and it is as true now as it was then. Emma isn't pretty... not by a long shot.
I would love to see her lose control of scott... and with recent developments, that may be where Whedon is going... I sure hope so.

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sat Sep 03, 2005 8:57 pm

I hope Jean comes back and beats the holy hell out of Emma, but I want it to be Jean, not Phoenix... I think it'd be a pretty cool thing to come full circle: From having the Hellfire Club bring about Dark Phoenix, to now having Jean get revenge on the same people who caused her so much pain and suffering.. that'd be so cool:D
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Post by HoodedMan » Sat Sep 03, 2005 10:58 pm

Originally posted by Paty
:magneto
Awwww...crqpola!!! Where the hell are my nice dark blue backgrounds? don't you guys realize that visually impaired people cannot easiy read white print on pastel backgrounds? We need high contrast ..you know...light on dark or dark on light!!! I used to love Nightscrawlers format cuz the pale blue print on dark blue was so easy on the eyes... Of course, red print on the dark blue was hard to read...not enough contrast... but what the hey... but white on pastel is yucky!
Well, we had it posted around for people to evaluate it; I'm sorry you didn't see it and Bamfette can explain the change better but I think it's better for the board and a lot of people like it. Any ways you can think of that would help it look better I'm sure would be appreciated.
ACHTUNG! Alles touristen und non-technischen looken peepers! Das computermachine ist nicht fuer gefingerpoken und mittengrabben. Ist easy schnappen der springenwerk, blowenfusen und poppencorken mit spitzensparken. Ist nicht fuer gewerken bei das dumpkopfen. Das rubbernecken sichtseeren keepen das cotten-pickenen hans in das pockets muss; relaxen und watchen das blinkenlichten.

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Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

Post by Bamfette » Sun Sep 04, 2005 2:47 am

nevermind that Paty can choose the old one in her control panel. it's still there.

memcp.php?action=profile

theme is what you want to change. the old one is 'nightscrawlers' but there are other ones too.

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Paty
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Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

Post by Paty » Wed Sep 07, 2005 6:35 pm

:magneto
Really? I can? ooooOOOOOoooo... OK... the computer illiterate one asks what are the instructions for doing this..? I shall go there but have no hope of doing it right.
will it change everything that comes in onMY monitor? OK... this is cool...
Thanks, Jilll
Paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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Paty
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Astonishing X-Men General Discussion

Post by Paty » Wed Sep 07, 2005 7:03 pm

:magneto
OMG!!! It worked!!! I can read the posts again!!! Thanks, Jill!!! I loved this dark blue background... it is so easy on the eyes...and I am sooooooooo not a pastel person, if you hadn't noticed...LOL...

I have a real bitch about artsy fartsy coloring in the books these days, though. apparently noone ever explained to the new computer colorists why you do certain tings with color in comic books. Captions, which have color to differentiate them from word balloons, must have as high contrast to be as readable as possible by the sight impaired. This was what the dean of comic coloring, Maarie Severin, herownself, taught me. I agreed. and having become visually impaired myself, I can vouch for the truth of that rule! But the computer colorists seem more interested in creating artsy fartsy design than increating readable print these days... and no one is correcting them. Plus, you have four color in a variety of shades and tones and such...so why is an unhealthy amount of coloring being done in shades of monochromatic blue, beige or pink? Has Chrisie Scheele taken over coloring for the entire industry??? Andy Yanchus had to correct her coloring all the time cuz these were her fave colors to use mo matter what or who she was coloring!!! sigh... Color blank outs... like an entire red panel used to be used for shock value or emergency lighting effects...now, they are almost derigeur on page after page og noon emergency art. So where is the shock value of the color when you need it? NOT THERE, FOR SURE!

Comic books have only color to do what music and sound do in movies and on tv. We have color. There is a whole way to use color to enhance the ambience or mood of a story that has apparently been lost to many colorists .. or NEVER EXPLAINED TO THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! Consequently, they don't understand it at all... and get very artsy fartsy with monochromatic colorschemes for no discernable reason...losing the dramatic effect of such coloring when it is needed...so dramatic effect has to be heavier emmphasis on sex or violence or open lettering letting you know just how big that 'KABOOM' really is. Right!
Comic coloring is a very specific art... and there are a lot of good technitions out there.. but damn few real comic book colorists worthy of the name. Technical proficiency does not always mean you are a creative ARTIST... but a real artist must have technical proficency, too. You gotta know how to use the tools of the trade bfore you can create a masterpiece. Horses are animals...but not all animals are horses...as it were.

In any event, I am happy...I have my dark blue Nightscrawlers board back again!

Yay!
Paty
:magneto
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

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