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Post by Bamfette » Tue Jul 06, 2004 2:43 pm

it focused on Warren and Paige. sorta. it really didn't focus on any one too much in particular, but there was a sub-plot with Warren and Paige. remember in Angels how Warren and Paige .... up in the sky...? well, that was the beginning of the setup for the arc. you know what i was talking about with stealing ideas? kinda like that...

but the main plot has to do with a deranged fan of the 'Z-Men' a comic/tv show which is the thinly veiled exploits of the X-Men, right down to Warren and Paige's 'special time' in the sky. (and before anyone says anything, Chuck's not saying this guy is the norm or anything. this fan's just a sick fuck and his fandom has nothing to do with how messed up he is. it merely determines his specific actions... and you KNOW fans like this exist... not the majority. but they're out there. ok not to this extreme, but the obsessive ones that deem bathing to be unimportant comared to their comics.)

the whole arc is really a comment on the industry. which is why it would fit in so well with WorldWatch. as the whole SERIES is a big comment on the industry. but, while i understand the editors were enthused about the idea, initially, they nixed it for some reason that i am not sure of. then it was on again, tho, thankfully in retrospect, not payed for. then the new policies were put in place. and the story had some stuff the MOST DEFINITELY went agaisnt the policies. so the arc was off again for good. it could have been watered down, but it would have lost much of its impact. it was very dark with a couple really disturbing scenes, and some dark humor. lost much of the humor/impact after the costume changes too, if you can believe it.

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Post by zati1 » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:35 am

eh, heaven forbid we have sexual connotation in our comic books. all-ages is a good thing, right? :rolleyes

p.s.- another reason why spandex sucks...their contribution to the destruction of the ultimate x-man arc! bwahahhaa

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Post by KurtnMeggan » Wed Jul 07, 2004 3:44 am

I will never stop loving spandex, for any reason. Besides, Chuck's book never really ditched spandex, so I fail to see your point.
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Post by zati1 » Wed Jul 07, 2004 2:29 pm

yeah but they did get rid of the brightly colored spandex, at least. i mean, i know lorna basically had that purple...thing...but it wasn't really traditional superhero spandex (like rogue or wolverine's now)...it was more...modern.

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Post by KurtnMeggan » Thu Jul 08, 2004 6:00 am

It just looked like a cross between manga-style and Victorian bordello to me (and still does);)
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Post by Winged Outlaw » Fri Jul 09, 2004 4:59 pm

Yeah... I can't make that connection either. Could you explain a little more? I loved the Poptopia arc, except for the art in the last part. It was much too stylized for my tastes.
Well, we had a bunch of Morlocks, except they were in London. A madman under the employ of some mysterious evil stranger is hired to kill them all. He isn't that impressive, yet he beats the crap out of the X-Men he meets. Only to be killed rather easily by Wolverine. Essentially, what we had was a watered down "Mutant Massacre" story, much in the way that say, Onslaught was a watered down Dark Phoenix story.

It was juxtapositioned with a story about a trashy pop queen using chamber to get some press. It was a statement about the recycled, watered down crap we get out of pretty much every medium these days.

I didn't notice this until someone pointed it out to me as well. However, it makes perfect sense, and its the kind of hidden message that would be expected out of high-class literature, which is why I think its so cool in retrospect.

Plus, Casey came to the ComiX-Fan chat room once, and chatted with a bunch of us. In addition to a few other things, he revealed that this is what he was going for with Poptopia, but some of the artist turmoil caused it to lose something in the translation.

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Fri Jul 09, 2004 5:49 pm

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
Well, we had a bunch of Morlocks, except they were in London. A madman under the employ of some mysterious evil stranger is hired to kill them all. He isn't that impressive, yet he beats the crap out of the X-Men he meets. Only to be killed rather easily by Wolverine. Essentially, what we had was a watered down "Mutant Massacre" story, much in the way that say, Onslaught was a watered down Dark Phoenix story.

It was juxtapositioned with a story about a trashy pop queen using chamber to get some press. It was a statement about the recycled, watered down crap we get out of pretty much every medium these days.
That actually does make sense. :ooh

It did lose something in the translation though, and I don't think you can blame it all on the artist.
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Post by Winged Outlaw » Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:16 am

I don't blame it on any single artist. I blame it on the fact that we had what, three artists in four issues? We went from the very detailed, realistic work of Ian Churchill, to some guy who's name I forget but basically didn't look that good, to Ashley friggin Wood. I love Ashley's style, but my god, there's no WAY you can keep a cohesive story if you go from realism to almost-abstract impressionism. It just doesn't work. And quite frankly, Wood's style didn't fit the story. It NEEDED someone like Churchill, because it needed to look like a traditional comic book to really work. And sadly... Churchill just didn't like what Casey was doing.

Can you imagine how great things would have been if Casey were paired with Sean Philips, or perhaps Dustin Ngyuen, for the whole run? IMO, both of those pairs worked even better than Morrison/Quitely... possibly even on par with Claremont/Byrne...

EDIT: Fair warning. Austen forfeited any respect I had for him with that "interview" he just had with Eric. Be aware that at times, my posts may reflect as such... though I'll no longer bring him up unless prompted.

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Post by zati1 » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:32 am

why does every interview he does get turned into the most dramatic thing EVER, especially at comix-fan? i saw it when it was first posted and i knew that in maybe two or three hours there would be like, three pages of people going "i hated him anyway!"

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Post by Crawler » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:25 am

If you post something disrespectful, warning or no, you ARE breaking our rules and you WILL face consequences.

And all the people freaking out over that interview are just proving Chuck right. It's insipid.

And discussion of that interview is going to be strictly relegated to this thread: viewthread.php?tid=4376
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:16 pm

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
Can you imagine how great things would have been if Casey were paired with Sean Philips, or perhaps Dustin Ngyuen, for the whole run? IMO, both of those pairs worked even better than Morrison/Quitely... possibly even on par with Claremont/Byrne...
I can't stand Sean Phillips' art. :( Everyone else equates him with the second coming of Christ but to me his work just looks crude. Awkward poses, twisted faces.

Anyway, I'm still doubtful as to whether cohesive art could have brought the story together. I'd have to read it again, but I'm pretty sure I don't have the issues.
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Post by Crawler » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:19 pm

I have to agree. I don't think it was completely the round-robin artists that hurt it unless they basically ignored what was written.

But I've got a question that will probably open up a huge ugly can of worms...

How come outside info, like what Casey said, is admissable to make a story better for you, yet outside info from Chuck, through Jill, is not?

In my book, neither makes the story better because it doesn't change anything. But that's me.
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Post by Winged Outlaw » Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:31 pm

Originally posted by Crawler
I have to agree. I don't think it was completely the round-robin artists that hurt it unless they basically ignored what was written.

But I've got a question that will probably open up a huge ugly can of worms...

How come outside info, like what Casey said, is admissable to make a story better for you, yet outside info from Chuck, through Jill, is not?

In my book, neither makes the story better because it doesn't change anything. But that's me.
Because quite frankly, the outside info about Casey's stories made me like them more. The outside info about Austen's stories only frustrated me, because even now as I go over them, I still don't see certain things (like what the explodo-wafers had to do with mutants).

And plus... I just plain liked Casey's writing better. Even before I heard that, I still like Poptopia quite a bit better than some of Austen's stories. The explanations about Casey's stories expanded what was already there. The explanations about Austen's stories, on the other hand, sounded like excuses.

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Post by Crawler » Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:07 am

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
The explanations about Casey's stories expanded what was already there. The explanations about Austen's stories, on the other hand, sounded like excuses.
Riiight...since Casey's came from him after-the-fact and Austen's were prior-knowledge. Clearly excuses.
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Post by KurtnMeggan » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:08 pm

That's a good point. In many cases, Austen's stories would make more sense in his interviews when he discussed them than in print month to month (or week to week, as shipping dates were so flexible during his run).
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Post by Crawler » Sun Jul 11, 2004 5:54 pm

I fail to see what your logic for that statement is, Outlaw, other than this is simply what you want to believe.

He didn't forget to put anything in. There is some stuff that never made it in because further stories were nixed. Some stuff that got lost through the artists. Some that didn't come off as intended because of editorial changes after the fact.

And if you're going to say "those sound like excuses!" then explain to me how "the round robin artist's made my story lose its point!" isn't.
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Post by Winged Outlaw » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:58 pm

Originally posted by Crawler
I fail to see what your logic for that statement is, Outlaw, other than this is simply what you want to believe.

He didn't forget to put anything in. There is some stuff that never made it in because further stories were nixed. Some stuff that got lost through the artists. Some that didn't come off as intended because of editorial changes after the fact.

And if you're going to say "those sound like excuses!" then explain to me how "the round robin artist's made my story lose its point!" isn't.
I've already told you that most of the reason I prefer Casey's work over Austen is simply personal. I like Casey's comics better than Austen's, plain and simple.

I'm not making any excuses for why most people didn't like poptopia, only that if it had a consistent artist who worked well with Casey, that it would have been better.

Meanwhile, the outside info thing. I see the info I got about poptopia similar to an English teacher explaining a metaphor I didn't initially get. For instance, when I read Ethan Frome, I totally understood what actually happened in the book. However, it was only after we discussed it in class that I was able to notice the symbolism. Same deal here. I understood everything that happened in Poptopia from a literal standpoint. The symbolism behind it eluded me, however, until someone else pointed it out.

Oh the other hand, I really didn't see any symbolism in Austen's issues. The story was exactly what was printed on paper, no extra message or moral that wasn't explicity obvious. However, there were a number of his issues that felt rushed, unfinished, or just plain confusing, and its the writer's job to keep that from happening, rather than relying on a long post like the Priesthood thing here to fill in the gaps.

Once again, Casey's explanations expanded a story, while Austen's simply tried to fill in the plotholes.

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Post by Crawler » Sun Jul 11, 2004 9:50 pm

Austen's explanations were meant for things that were lost in translation, somehow, just as Casey's were.

Plain and simple.
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Post by Bamfette » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:25 pm

nevermind that half the time it is ME doing the explaining, and not Chuck. it's not like he's TELLING me to come here and explain. he's just ok with me doing so, so i do. so it's not like he's trying to look better after the fact in 'making up excuses' because as far as he's concerned, he doesn't care if it ever becomes public.

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Post by Winged Outlaw » Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:34 pm

I'm not trying to bash Austen's work here, just calling it the way I see it. If you don't like it then fine. Casey's stuff sounded better with further explanation, Austen's sounded more disappointing. To me. If you don't like it, then fine. Does it really matter to you that much what I think?

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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Tue Jul 27, 2004 2:33 am

Peter Milligan is now the ongoing writer for X-Men. It was announced over the weekend. Salvador Larroca will be staying on the book as artist. He'll come on the book with X-Men #165 in December.
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Post by KurtnMeggan » Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:56 am

I never read anything Milligan did before, but I'm glad Salva's staying on the book. He's awesome, though not up to his X-Treme standard lately...
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Post by mightiest_mortal » Tue Jul 27, 2004 8:41 am

Im at a miss to the whole 'things being explained by writers after' discussion. ITs the same when people say they got lost and confused by the storys and that they make no sense without them being explained. None of them were really that confusing. Sure it was probably good idea to explain the Draco to people before the next issues had come out as everyone was thinking that Azazel was the actual devil without having read the rest of the arc, but if you read the whole arc at once, its all there and doesnt need explaining. ITs weird that so many people still dont get the point of it all and think Kurts dad is the real Devil. You still see complaints around X-Boards about nightcrawler being half demon now.... but then people still complain about the 'Azazel fathering children in the regular dimension in order to teleport himself into the regular dimension' plothole all the time, even though its clearly obvious he needed them to teleport his whole army through.
Sometimes i think people dont understand things just so they can bitch about them more.

AS for Peter Milligan coming on board.. i dont know what to think about it. The only stuff ive read of his is X-Statix, which although i loved, im not sure what his style would be like on a regular book. +I REALLY hope he doesnt kill anyone. I really hate this trend of killing heroes to make villains seem badder and killing villains to make heroes seem cooler (hey thats Frank Tieries entire writing style)
It just really annoys me and i dont really see any point apart from Shock value. :(

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Post by Winged Outlaw » Wed Jul 28, 2004 3:32 pm

No the reason people bitch about the Draco is because it was poorly plotted, poorly paced, and relegated Nightcrawler to spectator status in his own freakin origin story. Not to mention the fact that the only thing worse than making Nightcrawler's dad the devil, is to make him a guy who is kinda-the-devil-but-not-really-unless-you-look-at-it-a-certain-way-but-we'll-call-him-the-devil-to-make-him-look-cool. The initial "revelation" made me groan, but the "explanation" just made me laugh.

But who cares now. Austen is gone, never coming back (hopefully), and the enormously talented Peter Milligan is taking the reigns. I am just so amazingly happy at this turn of events. I may actually end up buying X-Men again in the near future.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Wed Jul 28, 2004 8:19 pm

I liked the Draco story. Altho I did feel that the ending was rushed, the story should have been at least 1 more issue and why did they have to swich artists. Now I'm not sayng the first guy was the best artist or anything but come on he was better than the guy that finished it.

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