X-Men General Discussion Reload

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X-Men General Discussion Reload

Post by msgt » Thu Apr 01, 2004 3:00 am

Originally posted by Crawler:
X-Men General Discussion Reload

Here's the place to discuss the post-Reloaded X-Men (formerly New X-Men) and the transitionary issues leading into it. (Which are coming out RIGHT NOW)

Enjoy!
The preview pages for Chuck Austen's issue is up at Pop Culture Shock.

Someone else has a few pages up here:

http://www.honnou.com/ryan/

I have some questions like didn't Beast and Cyke know that Cassandra was Ernst or is Austen telling us she wasn't??

Cause I'm confused by these pages.

I thought it was great that Nova was Ernst.

In New 126 they trap Nova in Stuff's body and they make her child like... programmed to learn.

Ernst was hinted as Nova in Planet X and then in HCT it was pretty much confirmed.

I wonder whats going on with this?

Mike

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Post by Icey » Mon Apr 05, 2004 8:45 pm

I was wondering about that as well. There's no way Emma and Charles didn't tell Scott and Hank that Ernst was Cassandra. EVERY teacher should have known in case anything triggered a return of her old personality.
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Post by msgt » Mon Apr 05, 2004 11:39 pm

Well, I've actually been waiting for someone to yell at me for jumping to conclusions hehe...

Xorn/Magneto didn't know that Ernst was Cassandra and she was in his special class.

So there is a possibiliity only Jean and the Professor knew...

Or...

Someone missed it. And Cassandra will show up in the mansion rubble.. which would be bad.

I really hope Morrison's run isn't retconned. I think retcons have done enough damage in comics, and especially in X-men.

They make things more confusing and muddled and hard to follow IMO.

Anyhow from what I hear we'll probably find out if Cassie is found not in this issue but the next...

which makes me wonder if we will see a good memorial for Jean?

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Post by Winged Outlaw » Sat Apr 10, 2004 4:58 pm

Originally posted by Paty
:mags:
Hi guys and gals...
sorry I have been away from the board...got fifty thousand boxes to unwrap, open and find places for before the "hot" season comes in!
LOL

I did manage to riff through New X Men 154. Beautiful Silvestri art...the rest was incomprehensible blather trying to tie up storylines and explanations that should have been whole arcs in their own right. typical...fractured and puerile...explaining nothing. At least it's retconnable...plotlines with such gaping holes are easily dealtwith by competent writers.
And I hear corporate reaction to the Planet X arc has been rather explosive itself. The movie people must be livid..and rightly so. The movies, wildly successful... are based on the Claremont ...eighties... X characterizations. Now this radical drek comes out when they are releasing the tapes and DVDs and they cannot reconcile the movie characters with the ones in the books.
:mags:
Um... actually New X-Men #154 was the first X-Men book to be #1 in the sales charts in quite some time, if memory serves.

And now we've got Austen coming in and trying to work off of what Grant was doing in the past...

The results are hardly surprising.

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Post by Diablo » Sat Apr 10, 2004 5:51 pm

Oh... Ernst was Cassandra Nova ?? I totally missed it ! :rolleyes
Anyway, Larroca's art is just incredible ! He gets better and better. With all the details he draws, I just can't understand why he's never late. I guess he hasn't slept in five years.
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Post by Sister Midnight » Sat Apr 10, 2004 8:08 pm

Originally posted by msgt
Well, I've actually been waiting for someone to yell at me for jumping to conclusions hehe...

Xorn/Magneto didn't know that Ernst was Cassandra and she was in his special class.

So there is a possibiliity only Jean and the Professor knew...

Or...

Someone missed it. And Cassandra will show up in the mansion rubble.. which would be bad.

I really hope Morrison's run isn't retconned. I think retcons have done enough damage in comics, and especially in X-men.

They make things more confusing and muddled and hard to follow IMO.

Anyhow from what I hear we'll probably find out if Cassie is found not in this issue but the next...

which makes me wonder if we will see a good memorial for Jean?

Mike
We don't know what Scott and Hank will find in the rubble. They may find an empty cell.

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Post by Crawler » Mon Apr 12, 2004 2:00 am

Here's the place to discuss the post-Reloaded X-Men (formerly New X-Men) and the transitionary issues leading into it. (Which are coming out RIGHT NOW)

Enjoy!
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Post by Sister Midnight » Tue Apr 13, 2004 7:31 am

I was wondering; since Chuck is currently using the Cuckoos pre Reload, is there any chance on getting a name for the fifth Cuckoo? :?

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Post by Crawler » Fri Apr 16, 2004 3:48 pm

Originally posted by Winged Outlaw
And now we've got Austen coming in and trying to work off of what Grant was doing in the past...

The results are hardly surprising.
Somebody has to come in and work off what Grant was doing or else we get another jump in comic time. And a whole lot of us are STILL wondering what and hoping for explanations as to happened in the infamous "6-month gap" YEARS later.

You can't just say "Well, Grant's gone. That's the best it's ever gonna get. Can't follow it. Cancel the book." Hell, if you want to argue that point, why don't they just shut down the whole franchise, since this was clearly the pinnacle of X-Men Storytelling? :p

And the opinion of someone who doesn't like it IS NOT the end-all be-all authority just because they're a reviewer for some website. It's not "results." It's just another opinion.

I found New X-Men #155 to be pretty damned enjoyable.

I think ALL the characters were portrayed as very human, and I think that that was the most sensible route for following the slightly over-the-top Here Comes Tomorrow.

Hank comments on the inappropriateness of Scott and Emma kissing at Jean's grave, and Emma storms off, hurt, when she realizes that his attraction/devotion to her is not necessarily as personal as it should be. There's that little doubt that says "He's with you because he can't be alone," in her head.

You'd storm off, too.

I think that those are pretty real moments.

And the little Salem Center riot happening could be straight out of REAL headlines. I mean, after 9/11 how many reports of attacks on American Arabs did you hear? People freak out, find the nearest scapegoat, and go on the offensive.

Anyone that thinks that New X-Men #155 didn't seem real needs to check their own reality.

It's going to be hard for Chuck to follow Grant, mostly because Grant had so many hardcore fans and because Chuck's style is different from Grant's.

It's hard to follow anything good in any medium or venue. If you're in a talent show and you follow someone that puts on a good show, your scores will probably be lower by default unless you totally blow them out of the water. And with the way fanboys are, that's not going to happen in most people's eyes no matter what.

I think Chuck did a very admirable job with this issue. Very real. Very down-to-Earth. He's not trying to be Morrison or compete with him. He's just being himself, and telling a pretty damned good story.
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Post by msgt » Sat Apr 17, 2004 2:59 pm

hehehe.. I was very surprised when I came here and saw that I had started a topic.. and a sticky topic too hehe..

Well I didn't buy the issue, but I did read it in the comic store. Which is likely what I'll do with the next issue.

Well I don't know if I'd say the characters were real. I'm not sure what that even means.

I do realize its a style issue. I just do not like Austen's style.

I just did not like the dialogue very much. New X-men has been on the journey since GM run, and we all know they can't keep GM's evolution of the book (from dumpy super heros to a social sci-fi book) but here we went right back to a super hero book.

I just didn't like the feel of the book or get what was going on.

The fight with the robot in the mansion?? Emma Frost being hit in the head with a rock??

The book had gone so far and went so many steps backward in one issue.

Cyke got his head rammed through a wall and it didn't seem to effect him as much as it should have.

I'm still confused about the Cassandra Nova thing. But like I said if Xorn didn't know then its doubtful Cyke and Beast knew. I just wonder if this will get any explanation in the next issue.

I don't think Emma was being real for just getting mad and running away. I don't believe that would be her style at all. She doesn't seem the type to just get hurt and run away.

I would make some more comments but they would likely cause some of the usual "No Austen does not write weak females" type of replies. I just did not think that was Emma. And realize I also hate it when someone says a character is out of character because then you put a character in a box - but even still I found that seen very predictable.. just because of how the X-woman are generally portrayed by Austen (and yes I am fully aware how some of you hate when people say that! But I think its True! :p)

I mean of course we know Austen has his style, and none of it was really surprising. He's not supposed to be Grant Morrison or anyone else other than himself.



Also theres the argument about Jean's sacrifice that I've read elsewhere. Jean, seemingly, pushed Cyke toward Emma and the school in 154, but here he is still unsure. What role did Jean really play in the end of 154??

Ok now with stuff I do like, because I hate to be negative (but I also want to be honest).

I liked how Austen wrote the convo with Beast and Cyke about Jean. It appears that no one is trying to say Jean is dead forever! Instead he has the characters seem to expect her coming back since she was the Phoenix (it just seems like its a matter of time.. to whether she rises again or not).

Again I'm not one of those fans that seems to not know that the X-men are a soap opera. But this issue (esp. Cyke and Emma seemed soapy in a bad way).

Though I am a big fan of Cyke and Jean Grey, I still liked Cyke and Emma together but here I was just annoyed by them both.

Well thats my take..

Mike

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Post by Northstars Love » Sat Apr 17, 2004 4:15 pm

Quoted by msgt

Well I didn't buy the issue, but I did read it in the comic store. Which is likely what I'll do with the next issue.
They allow you to do that? I would think that they would have a policy to buy the book then read it.

And I agree with C. I enjoyed #155. And for those that would think that there wouldn't be any anti-mutant backlash after what Mags did is just fooling themselves.

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Post by Crawler » Sat Apr 17, 2004 5:59 pm

Originally posted by msgt
hehehe.. I was very surprised when I came here and saw that I had started a topic.. and a sticky topic too hehe..
I pulled all the comments about the post-Morrison (New) X-Men out of the old thread and put them into here. Earliest post gets given credit for starting the thread. :p
Well I didn't buy the issue, but I did read it in the comic store. Which is likely what I'll do with the next issue.
THEIF!! ;)
Well I don't know if I'd say the characters were real. I'm not sure what that even means.
If you don't have a sense of what real people are like, perhaps you should give up on internet comics discussion and try to interact with people in person.
I do realize its a style issue. I just do not like Austen's style.

I just did not like the dialogue very much.
I think the dialogue rang true for the most part. It's how people talk. It may not be huge grandstanding "I AM A GODDESS!!" kind of stuff, but these aren't those kind of characters.

As for style, are you meaning how it's "soapy"? Well, IMO, it's no more soapy than most of Grant's run. The relationships deal with in this issue are ones HE set up.
New X-men has been on the journey since GM run, and we all know they can't keep GM's evolution of the book (from dumpy super heros to a social sci-fi book) but here we went right back to a super hero book.

I just didn't like the feel of the book or get what was going on.

The fight with the robot in the mansion?? Emma Frost being hit in the head with a rock??

The book had gone so far and went so many steps backward in one issue.
I don't see Austen undoing anything Grant did in this issue. He pretty much picked up where Grant left off. Definitely not "going backward," either storywise or characterization-wise.

And MORRISON WROTE SUPERHEROES. His run was full of the usual superhero schtick, and you know why? Because the X-Men are fucking superheroes. Don't delude yourself into thinking that Morrison took them completely away from that.

And how the hell is being surrounded inside a burning building by an angry mob and digging through the rubble of the school "right back to a superhero book"?

They're not out saving the world. Hell, they're not even saving THEMSELVES. How is that superheroic?

As for the rock and robot...is it just that you don't like "your" characters being "treated" this way? Grant broke Emma's nose and made Cyke so insecure that it turned off his optic blasts, so things have been worse for these characters.
Cyke got his head rammed through a wall and it didn't seem to effect him as much as it should have.
He's unconscious in rubble at the end of the book. I'd say that that's "effected."

If he had a concussion, he could have been okay for at least a few minutes (all the fight seems to have lasted).
I'm still confused about the Cassandra Nova thing. But like I said if Xorn didn't know then its doubtful Cyke and Beast knew. I just wonder if this will get any explanation in the next issue.
Also remember that there's 150 years between this issue and Here Comes Tomorrow. Any number of things could have happened in that time.

And Ernst never displayed any of the needing-to-learn-constantly or inability-to-speak-well characteristics that Cassandra would have had at that point because of the body she was locked in.

And if you're going to argue that she somehow overcame that, then what was holding her back from once again becoming her old villainous self?
I don't think Emma was being real for just getting mad and running away. I don't believe that would be her style at all. She doesn't seem the type to just get hurt and run away.
Also not her style to fall for the boyscout, is it? She's attached now.

And it's not as if she ran off, bawling. She's hurt, she's mad, she leaves instead of trying to hurt Cyke back. Maybe not her style, but she loves the dork and wouldn't want to hurt him.

She need time away from him. So she took it.
I would make some more comments but they would likely cause some of the usual "No Austen does not write weak females" type of replies. I just did not think that was Emma. And realize I also hate it when someone says a character is out of character because then you put a character in a box - but even still I found that seen very predictable.. just because of how the X-woman are generally portrayed by Austen (and yes I am fully aware how some of you hate when people say that! But I think its True! :p)
Make the comments. I can argue them into the ground if I feel they're untrue. :evil

Strong characters are allowed to have feelings. They're allowed to have weaknesses. We've never seen Emma truly care for anyone but herself up until now, so it would make sense for it to be against her usual spite and daggers attitude.

And it wasn't over the top. She didn't cry, she didn't fall at his feet, she didn't beg him to say it. She realized that Cyke may not be as devoted to HER as she is to him and it hurt.

So we got to see those feelings displayed in a way that I feel is in keeping with the overall character.

And if you think that that is "weak," then GRANT made Emma weak, not Chuck.
Also theres the argument about Jean's sacrifice that I've read elsewhere. Jean, seemingly, pushed Cyke toward Emma and the school in 154, but here he is still unsure. What role did Jean really play in the end of 154??
Jean wasn't talking directly to him. And even if she had, if the woman you were still a little hung up on said "No no, it's fine, go be with your new girl." would that really cause you to take a leap you're not ready to take.

From my perspective, Cyke's in love with Emma, but not ready to admit it to himself. Jean is just an excuse, because he loves her, but hasn't been IN love with her in a good long while.

He's also unsure about the school, still, so I think we have yet to see the effects of Jean's nudge, though one could argue that Emma's outspoken desire to rebuild the school is due to Jean.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun Apr 18, 2004 2:29 pm

I thought it was okay, much better than most of Austen's stuff. Nothing to freak out over either way.

And I've been reading them in the store for AGES. Since before the Draco for Uncanny, though I hung on to New until I ran out of money. Drugstore down the street has the magazines in this little alcove and there's always someone in there flipping through something.
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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sun May 09, 2004 10:55 pm

Hey does anyone know what's going on with X-Men #157? Like what it's about and who will actually be in it?
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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sat May 15, 2004 12:32 am

Well it looks like [spoiler]Xorn's back[/spoiler] with X-Men #157
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Post by Bamfette » Sat May 15, 2004 2:33 am

sort of.... if you look at the preview pages there is a difference. but, yeah.

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Post by LoneWolf21 » Sat May 15, 2004 6:19 am

The scene in the headmasters office of next week's issue cracked me up. I wonder Xavier used to have the same problem? :LOL

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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sat May 15, 2004 4:54 pm

sort of.... if you look at the preview pages there is a difference. but, yeah.
What preview pages Bamfette?
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Post by Diablo » Sat May 15, 2004 6:31 pm

[spoiler]Xorn would come back ??[/spoiler]
Is this Chuck's idea or Marvel's idea ??

I like Alan Davis's Nightcrawler, but I long to see Austen's X-Men again. Especially Lorna and Juggernaut. And Annie.

Bamfette, what does Chuck write now ? He seemed to be everywhere at Marvel and now, he only writes X-Men ! What happened ?? I'd prefer to see less Bendis and more Austen !
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Post by Bamfette » Sun May 16, 2004 2:25 pm

joey - the scene with Logan, and the crack about how he can't be on ALL the teams? hehehehe! yeah, Chuck told me about that...

Diablo - Chuck's moving to DC and independent primarily, now. he's still got lots of work, just not for Marvel. it's his own choice, and i am happy for him. I think he's doing the best thing.

coming out from him:

Action Comics as of last months 814
JLA as of July for 6 issues
WorldWatch (Self Published)
Flywires for Humanoids/DC

and stuff i can't talk about.


about [spoiler]Xorn[/spoiler] - Marvel's idea..... atleast the very basic concept. they wanted this character back, badly. up to Chuck to figure out the details. ended up with a bit of a compromise.


Gambit~Iceman - the preview pages for next weeks issue http://milehighcomics.com/firstlook/051 ... 57cvr.html specifically the part where [spoiler]all the people are being drawn towards that dark spot on page 2, as if being pulled by an extreme force of gravity, like happens with oh, say... a black hole.... and before you say Xorn was really Magneto, but now with Excalibur, it's not really him anymore. yes, Chuck knows that (how could he not?) and he's working with that. i can't say how exactly, yet. it also explains who exactly was wreaking all that destruction in NY. [/spoiler]

that and, oh, i dunno, the title. :p

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Post by Robin » Sun May 16, 2004 3:32 pm

I didn't quite get what the Xorn/Magneto deal was all about, I guess I gotta read some back issues :LOL

Anyway, I'm glad they're bringing Magneto back. I haven't actually read most of his comics appearances, but in both the movies and the cartoons he seemed like this cool, tragic character...

So I guess they're kinda re-starting from scratch with Xorn, right? Kinda bringing back the character but without the ties to Magneto? Either way, I'm looking forward to it.


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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Sun May 16, 2004 4:47 pm

Which begs the question- [spoiler] IOf Xorn Wasn't Xorn and Magento wasn't Magneto and Magneto wasn't Xorn- who was taht who showed up in New X-men?[/spoiler]

I've heard fan speculation taht [spoiler]Xorn[/spoiler] will be the new Eric the Red.

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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sun May 16, 2004 5:42 pm

Chuck's moving to DC and independent primarily, now. he's still got lots of work, just not for Marvel. it's his own choice, and i am happy for him. I think he's doing the best thing.
So Bamfette does that mean he's leaving X-Men?

As to the question of Magneto and Xorn etc, etc. I was talking around, and I don't know if this theory is true or not but I've heard it from a few people. [spoiler]That the Xorn in the New X-Men annual was the real Xorn, and that sometime between the said events in the annual and New X-Men #122 Magneto assumed the identity of Xorn. However at the end of Planet X, Charles Xavier pulled an Ultimate Xavier and pulled a giant mind warp on everyone, and planted the illusion of Magneto being killed. Due to the fact he wanted to rehabilitate him.[/spoiler] Now if that's all true, why would he let Jean be killed. Then again she's [spoiler]currently healing on the moon as Here Comes Tomorrow tought us[/spoiler], so I'm sure everythings fine with her.
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Post by Bamfette » Sun May 16, 2004 6:15 pm

i actually meant to say 'doing more DC titles' didn't mean movin there entirely. no exclusive or anything at present. i can't say any more about his future plans.

and... sorta on the right track.... except if you read Excalibur, the part about [spoiler]Magneto taking Xorns place does not fit. Magneto was off doing who knows what the whole time, in secret contact with Xavier.[/spoiler] but, right track.... i don't really want to spoil this one, so that's it from me on this subject.

tho i do want to express my relief that Annie is back to having black hair like she is supposed to. that whole blue hair fiasco that started when Kia strted... oy...

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Post by Gambit~Iceman » Sun May 16, 2004 6:28 pm

Alright so [spoiler]Magneto wasen't really Xorn at all then? And if the real Xorn wasen't really Xorn then who was it? The supposivly dead Magneto Clone Joesph? Ugh none of this makes a lick of sense.[/spoiler]
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