Is Xavier a .... or what? * title edited by a mod*

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Post by SmoothBamf » Tue Jun 29, 2004 8:53 pm

Alright, here's the thing, Now Im not sure if the Prof had Cerebro when he put together the original X-Men, but I know that he had it when he assembled the 2nd group. Now, here's why he's a dick; did anyone else notice that he only took the pretty and human looking mutants? (Outside of NightCrawler, of course, He isnt human looking but he is charismatic and not grotesque at all.)
He choose to overlook mutants like Blob (BrotherHood of Evil Mutants), Seamus Mellancamp (an Acolyte), Forearm (from the MLF, Mutant Liberation Front), Caliban, Masque, Leech, and the majority of the Morlocks. The list goes on and on. My point is, maybe the lives of these guys and many others who look like them, would have been different if Professor X had chosen to take some of the ugly mutants as well?
What do you guys think?

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Post by Garble » Tue Jun 29, 2004 11:52 pm

Well, a lot of the characters you mentoined were first introduced after the formation of the 2nd group. And at that time, it was assumed most mutants looked like normal humans.

But as for the Blob, the first group of X-Men actually tried to recruit him. But he turned out to be to self serving and hateful.

The Morelocks might have been shielded from Xavier's detection back then. But Storm did offer the Morlocks refuge at Xavier's once they were discovered, and they turned it down. The Morlocks, for the most part, chose their isolation.

I don't know how to retcon an explination for the rest of the non-pretty mutant population except to say that there's a lot of continuity problems with Cerebro detecting all mutants or just very active ones.

It's possible that Xavier picked who he picked primarily out of the potential he saw in them. And not just every mutant he discovered.

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Post by Lauren » Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:30 pm

I have to agree with the last post. It just wouldn't have made sense if he just went "Hey you're a mutant! be an X-man!" he had to do research and find those that he felt were able to handle the responsibility and perform well! It's kind of explained in issue 445 of Uncanny X-men really.
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Post by kurtlover » Wed Jun 30, 2004 10:47 pm

Totally agree with Garble in what he said, and i am editing the name of the thread and moving it because:
1.- i totally dislike the title, it is a lack of respect and there's smarter ways to start a thread like this one ;) i don't say is not a good topic of discussion..but come on!

2.- This thread belongs more for the non NC comics discussion.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Thu Jul 01, 2004 9:54 pm

I know that most of the charectors mentioned were not created until after, but as far as the stories are concerend all of those charectors are of proper age to have been found at the time. I absolutly agree that the prof wanted useful mutants, not just any, but the charectors mentioned above certainly do not have useless powers. Most at one time or another have given the X-men a run for their money.

Come on, there has to be someone out there that agrees with me.

By the way, I am fully aware that I am in the minority about a vast majority of my opinions. But just because you dont agree with me doesnt make it disrespectful or stupid. Thank you.

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Post by scheherazade » Thu Jul 01, 2004 11:46 pm

Well, within the storyline... the prof needed to recruit mutants that had control over their powers already, and knew how to use them. Storm was using her powers as a goddess, Banshee'd fought the x-men before (i think), Sunfire was working as a superhero in japan, Wolverine was doing the same in Canada, Thunderbird was shown to know how to use his power, as was Colossus, and Nightcrawler knew how to bamf, plus he was trained in acrobatics, and knew how to fight.

Of course, Nighty and Colossus would later learn how to better employ their powers; (Kurt learnt to teleport with passengers, and Colossus learnt fighting techniques like Judo), but, for a thrown together team, they were extremely well-fitted for it.

Compare to the others you mention:
Blob had been approached before, and proved himself a villian.
I don't know from Forarm and Mellencamp, but aren't those both villian groups? it would seem an odd choice to go for them.
The morlocks, I imagine, would be scratched off Chuck's list because of their attitude towards outsiders. (in x-factor, all the best fighters of them hate x-factor, and resist their help)... furthermore; Leech is a child, and Caliban is shown to be a poor fighter-- and the prof knew where the x-men were, they didn't need his "hound" ability. Masque is evil.

There's some "pretty" mutants chuck didn't contact, too... Like Rogue (although her connection to mystique might have precluded that) or Gambit. of course, both of those characters had yet to be created, like most of the others you mentioned, but i'm just talking inside the story, here.

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Post by kurtlover » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:18 pm

It is not about being disrespectful or stupid its about being civil and polite, and using words with intelligence no matter the different opinions.

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Post by Paty » Sun Aug 01, 2004 6:18 pm

:mags
Well...
As most of you know, I am not an Xavier lover. He creeps me out. I don't trust him at all. I believe he has his own agenda and wanted a specific cast of characters to work with.
Being a telepath, he could check the pliability and psychic bent of his candidates for a school that was just getting started and was more of a family situation than a school. four kids of suitable temperment might have been all he thought he could cope with to begin. As he honed the control of his own power, probed the possibilities of Cerebro's abilities to locate mutants and learnee how to use it more effectively, he could have more successfully located and screened mutants for the school.
You must remember, that at first, he was the only person to run the school and it was run more as an extended family than as a school, per se. there was no extended staff and other teachers as develooped later as the school's rep and popularity grew... and as more and more mutant children popped up and had to be protected and educated.
When you are just starting out, you go slowly until you get your feet under you. Xavier had a vision of a band of mutants trained to provide a buffer between humans and mutantkind, help humans and build good PR for mutants and their causes. He couldn't have psyches at odds with his goals...and he was uniquely designed to screen,mentally , for the kinds of students he could work with in the fledgling effort.
It is not as if he had this big school up and running... he had to be both parent and teacher to these kids... and it limited him in how many he could deal with, being handicapped, himself.
Now, as to him doing questionable things... I have always thought so. He has influenced the minds of the parents who came for visits... the minds of other officials who did the same... and, I believe, he soothed the restless minds of the students, if only subliminally to keep peace in the house. There could have been , for him, no greater distraction than the turbulent growing up pains of his teens. A small intrusion, if so...seemingly at any rate. A little nudge here..."doing homework is more important than this baseball game on tv..." thunk into a loitering teenager's head ... nudge..nudge... do your homework,kid... kind of thing. subtle, seemingly innocuous... keeps the peace... but is it ethical? A teenager's mind... his psyche... is the only thing he can call his own! His Sanctum Sanctorum, as it were. Teens don't have much controlover anything...except their inner thoughts... and these were not completelly safe fromXavier! He would invade their minds at the drop of a hat at any hour of the day or night!!! The kids never rebelled, never did questionable things.. of course, Stan was writing them as the perfect teen group, and at that time, with the code, your heroes had to be squeaky clean.
You must not forget the times the early stories were written in.. they influenced what the writer could do with the characters to a degree not even believed these days.

But if we are talking continuity, here, a large part has to be that Xavier was just starting the school and feeling his way with it...didn't need distractions of unruly kids and chose those whose psyches were compatible with his own. why four boys to one girl? If I were a parent I would have been leery of a girl in a household of males who weren't related to her!!! most of them in their hormone crazy teens! Of course, Marvel Girl at that time was the token female any group had to have. We are talking boys club here...male characers of different varieties for boys to identify with and a female to ogle.
And at the time, it was a black and white world. If you were benign, you looked normal... even the angel had to hide his wings... and if you were ugly, or disfigured, you were evil... sorta like the white hats identifying the good guys and the black hats identifying the bad guys in old westerns.
Visually it was a simplistic shortcut to identify the good guys from the bad ones in cast of thousands battle scenes. the ugly guys were the baddies. Wanda and Pietro, two good looking characters quickly segued from the evil side to the good side, by joining the Avengers. Until recently,with the expansion of the school, Kurt was something of an anomaly in the looks department...of course,so was the Thing over in the FF. You could have good looking bad guys more easily than you could have bad looking good guys...it was the visual shortcut thing. Kurt isn't bad looking...he is actually intriguing... but don't forget that he is at Marvel cuz someone over at DC thought he was just too weird looking!!!
But comics got more complex and the cast of characters got more complex, too... especially when you wanted tomake the point that not everything was black and white and that not everything was what it seemed... so don't judge a book by it's cover!

I still think the character of Xavier leaves a lot to be desired. He is NOT who and what he presents himself to be. He is not necessarily malign... but he ain't mr. Goody TwoShoes, either. Xavier has now, as he did then, an agenda. We are not privvy to it. We know what he tells us... and even if we assume what he tells us is true, he is not telling all...not by a long shot. In my opinion, he is definatelly not what he seems... he raises my hackles and always has...never so much as when he is being pleasant. If I were amutant kid, I wouldn't go near that place! I would take my chances with humanity...especially if i could pass for human. Especially now, with Emma in charge. She doesn't have Xavier's supposed self restraints on he telepathic abilities.... and her I trust less than Chuckie-poo.
Much as I dislike Xavier, he ain't the worst of them... and if you are talking "dicks"... try Gambit! Or...is he jjust your commonplace jerk!?!

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Post by LadyErin » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:31 am

Paty, how did I know you would have a comment on this? LOL ;)

But Xavier is manipulative and unethical and his actions wilth Gabreille Haller prove so. And this action colors my thoughts of him, so no, I don't trust him either.
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Post by Paty » Mon Aug 02, 2004 1:54 pm

:mags
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
'don't I have an opinion on just about anything that affects Mags??? LOL Yes...yes, I DO . LOL

but I am not the only one who is creeped out by Xavier. rivka says when she first saw the first issue, he creeped her out so bad that she wouldn't read the book! Mags, even then, didn't affect her like that... only Chuckie poo. finally, a friend had to keep forcing her to read X Mden! She said Mags wasn't nearly as scary as good ol' Chuckie! I believe that. To a child, how can someone who can come into your mind anythim he wants be benevolent??? You are at his MERCY in a way that overshadows all else! Chas may aver his respect of their privacy... but you see him coming into their minds all the time... and not once have I ever heard him ASK if it is OK!!! Can anyone point me to a specific panel where he asks those kids if it is OK for him to come into their heads???
Wolvie is always saying "Get outta my head, Chuck!" so he does it willy nilly with ALL of them. an adult can rationalize this... they have other things in their life that they have some control over... but a teenager or child is helpless... totally dependent on it's parents or, in this case, mentors... and the only thing it controls are it's own thoughts!!! and here comes ol' Chuckie... like a malevolent uncle... barrelassing in to each little brain.
How do we know he doesn't take a voyeuristic look around? OH!.. he TELLS us he wouldn't do that!!! Yet, he has practiced deceit on the kids many times...making them think he was dead and such...even coercing Marvel Girl, who knew better, to keep it secret from the others. Deceit teaching a child deceit. sure... let the kids think they are on their own... teach 'em independence and self reliance! Crapola, Chuckie...it fosters a sense of anxiety and fearfullness of being deserted. This happens to anyone who trusts and depends on someone. when they die it is wholly traumatic...and to PRETEND to die is child abuse! At least in my book! sorry!
throughout his run in the X books, chuck has vascillated from totally creepy and unfeeling to very concerned and nice in his tone with the kids. He has never been what I would call responsible! Magneto took his responsibility to the kids more seriously than Xavier did... and was totally devistated when he thought he had failed them. Xavier would have just trundled his ass over to Cerebro and got a new batch of suckers...uh... recruits.
I don't like Xavier... never have. give me Mags any time!!! He may use and abuse his followers, but it is upfront and honest...not sneaky and subliminal. I can deal with upfront and honest... I do not trust subliminal and sneaky.
Charles isn't a dick... he is just a creep... in my book. Now, as I said, Gambit is a "dick"! That boyo needs a good comeuppance...and i think he may be learning a hard lesson with the blindness. I can commisserate on that one, youbetcha! Do I think that when hes eyesight comes back, he will take the lessons learned to heart? nah...he'll go right back to his old ways. You don't change that kind of cat's stripes.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Mon Aug 02, 2004 9:25 pm

Finaly, I knew some one out there had to agree with me.
Thank you

btw. If kurt had been at DC I'd probably be a mutch bigger DC fan.

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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 02, 2004 10:26 pm

A question... :scratch With the creepy behavior we've seen evidenced, specifically with the "I'll pretend to be dead" bit of the late 60s, how much of this can be considered "in character", and how much is just a retconning hack?

I've noticed that things often get done because someone wants to get from point A to point C, and they'll just barrel through point B without any regard for the complications it causes down the line. Case in point: in the late 80s, just after Secret Wars (don't even get me started about that load of crap... :smirk) when Amanda left Kurt (for the first time), it was such a quick, unreasonable thing to do that I just had this feel of unreality. All I could figure is that someone up there wanted Amanda out of the picture, wanted Nighty unattached, and didn't give a rat's ass how it happened so long as it happened in THIS issue. How much of that has Xavier had to deal with?
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Post by Sorte Springer » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:43 am

Personally I think Xavier is one of the most important character in the X-world. With out him there would be no X-men. It is, after all, his dream that keeps the heros going, and it is through his guidience that the X-men learned to use their powers and use them for a higher cause. I agree with Paty that Xaivier is not an unadulterated hero. He does have an agenda, he does seek power, and he does have a task force of his own, the X-men, allways including the "kill first, ask questions later" Wolverine. Beacuse Xavier is a leader and and in a way a politician, he takes on more responsibilty than the average super hero. He is responisible for the lifes of the X-men, he is, as Paty pointed out, more of a father than a teacher to a lot of the heros. He is also to some extend responsible for the acts of the X-men, he knows what Wolverine is like and still he keeps him on the team, so I would say that the blood on that has come on Wolverines hands, since he became an X-man, is on Xaviers hands too.
When written well Xavier is not that far from Magneto, and vice versa, and that is a trait that in my opinion makes X-men stand out from other super hero titles.
At best Magneto is not entirely black and Xavier not entirely white.
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Post by LadyErin » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:18 am

Originally posted by Sorte Springer
... and Xavier not entirely white.
Ok, Xavier slept with one of his patients! And not a patient as in "Here take two of these every four hours for you sore throat," that, while questionable, is ethical. Somewhat. But Haller was a psych patient of his! That is tantamount to abuse. And, no, it doesn't matter whether or not she was any longer his patient.
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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Aug 03, 2004 4:33 pm

Originally posted by LadyErin

Ok, Xavier slept with one of his patients! And not a patient as in "Here take two of these every four hours for you sore throat," that, while questionable, is ethical. Somewhat. But Haller was a psych patient of his! That is tantamount to abuse. And, no, it doesn't matter whether or not she was any longer his patient.
Gabrielle Haller? The one who eventually gave him Legion? I have the episode where he first met her (I think). Somewhere in the 150s or 160s of Uncanny, not too long after they'd defeated Magneto in such a way to show him he was being a yutz and should consider a career change. :whistle The episode was entirely in a flashback.

Here's a few things to take into consideration:

1) Xavier went deep into Gaby's mind to pull her out of her catatonic withdrawl. I have to think that when you go in that deep, you can't help but imprint on each other, forging a strong bond whether you want to or not. Yes, he may have done this with other people, but then the other factors come into play....

2) Gaby was female, young, attractive, and of a similar age as Xavier.

3) Xavier was much younger, less worldy-wise, and hadn't quite found his place in the world yet. I think he was working in Israel as part of that "finding myself" process.

4) Hydra interfered BIG time. Gaby had the key to finding a whole shitload of Nazi gold, but their "imprinting process" broke her already fragile, traumatized mind, so the Hydra organization placed her in that medical center and secretly monitored her. Once Xavier "snapped" her back to reality, they grabbed her again for their information. Both Xavier and Erik (who was working at that medical center and was not yet known as Magneto) went to rescue her. (This is also how Magneto got his "seed fund" for all that technology and world-takover stuff: several TONS of Nazi gold, which he "split" with Xavier.)


Put all this together in a mix, and you can see where the conflict brought Xavier and Haller artificially close. But their personalities weren't suited to each other: the conflict and rescue was all they had in common. Xavier had seen the face of the kind of enemy he had to fight ("racial purists" like Hydra), and he was drawn to that fight like a moth to flame. That's one thing I really liked about the EVO episode with Legion: it showed that very qualities that make Charles a fine teacher, leader, and "genetic activist", if you will :smirk also make him a shitty father and husband. He devotes too much time to his cause, not enough to his real family.

Though I never read about the actual mechanism of their parting, I guess after a few months, they both realized that this just wasn't working out. (It must have been pretty acrimonious, too: Gaby didn't want Xavier to know about the child, even knowing Xavier would be better suited to deal with the child's fragmented personas and autism. She went to Moira first, and said point blank she didn't want Charles involved. :shame)

I guess my take on it was that it was a mistake, but not abuse. If factor 4 hadn't been in play, the relationship would never have taken place at all.
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Post by Paty » Tue Aug 03, 2004 7:50 pm

:mags
Chuckie-poo has done questionable things from the get go. Yeah... he formed the X Men, trained the little buggers and then sent them out, barely trained teenagers to fight a deadly foe! Magneto!!! Or did Chas know he wasn't THAT deadly?
I know people whopostulate that Chuck was controlling Magneto even then...long distance and subliminally. setting up training scenerios that would test the mettle of his students, but not put them in real danger no matter how the opponent ranted and raved.
I somehow doubt that scenerio...LOL... but if we go back to the Baron Struker issue...gave Hallers debut... and the source of Magneto's original wealth, which I am sure he diversified all over the blobe...to become a much bigger and stable financial base. Xavier's actions vis a vis Haller kinda backfired on him, didn't it? Misconduct by a physician usually does. with the degree of trauma she was dealing with, she could not have been out of the woods, psychotically speaking... when the affair occurred. If he were a plychologist or a psychiacrist, he would have known better than to get involved with a qatient. I am not saying it doesn't happen... it does, often and with sometimes devestating consequenced, which is why is a taboo. He should have KNOWN better. No mater how deep the bond, there should have been no physical relationship there. It was medical misconduct of the first water.
and yes, blood on Logan's claws when he is on an X mission is blood on Xavier's hands, as well!!! Especially when wolvie is obviously sent out by Xavier on a "mercy killing".
Xavier is absolutely necessary to the saga of X dom. So is Magneto. and their relationship is the core of the whole thing. Claremont is exploring that now.. as never before in the past. I think we are gonna be in for some wild revelations... some shockers, maybe...but all in due time and due outcoming.

Quite often, with new, young or unexperienced writers, they come with grand new ideas and directions. And this is all well and good...IF they have an editor who willsit with them and work out in a timely and logical way the changes they want to make can be achieved without seeming like they are coming out of the blue. All things can be done... IN THEIR TIME!
Yes, you cannot get to point C without going through point B. but some young writers don't want to take that time to deal with the steps... so they just take the elevator, disrupting character development and continuity. It is the job of the editor to keep this from happening.
that was why I said there were no editors on the X books when things like that happened willy nilly ...especially in New X Men. characterization jumps right out of the blue... without buildup or thought to later developments. Like Scott and Emma... stupidest thing I ever heard of. One word balloon is supposed to make everything right? Not hardly!!!"Oh, I can't talk to Jean..." Riiiiiight! No other build up but that... ??? Crappy storytelling is what it is... and non existant editorial.

The importance of qualified editorial is paramount here. Often the writer is so close to the story...doing technical stuff... that he cannot see the whole picture. this is when an editor... a competent editor, with experienc and insight... will step in and say..."Hey... what about this... or that... and haven't you forgotten that they just got married? this thing needs more buildup for that to happen logically!"
Now, sometimes, the writer will catch this himself... and fix it... but not often. Writers have storylines in their minds... and ways to make what they want to happen ... happen! that some of them are not lobical or out of character may depend on how long the writer has been familiar with the characters... as well as the writer's own life experience or lack of same. The more worldlly wise a writer is, the more likely it is that they will avoid some of the "too soon, too fast, not incharacter" pitfalls. If they have followed the characters and are aware of what has come before with that character, they may be more likely to consider the established canon. But if they haven't read it or don't remember it, they MUST, in a shared Universe like Marvel... with importance given continuity, do their RESEARCH! And some of them don't want todo this or be bothered by backstory or canon. It is not important to them... only what they want to do is important. And this is where trouble begins and a good editor can save the day. Any editorial is preferable to none. You NEED another eye on the storyline and characterizqtion! someone to definatively say "You cannot go from point A to point C without going through point B... and it better be logical and in character and agree with established canon...you hear me, you young idiot???!!! Do it over and do it right!"
An Editor does not just traffic the books and sign up artists... an editor is a key ingredient in properly telling a coherent story...especially if the writer is either new or young and inexperienced... or very willful, short sighted and off the wall.

It is very difficult to write and keep all the points of continuity in your mind. but it is necessary in ongoing sagas such as books that span two, three, and better decades. It is imperative! Good writers will do this, and will try to work within established guidelines until they can aggect the change...slowly and logically that they want to take place. As I have often said...ANYTHING can be done with ANY character... it is all in HOW you do it!

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Post by LadyErin » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:14 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
1) Xavier went deep into Gaby's mind to pull her out of her catatonic withdrawl. I have to think that when you go in that deep, you can't help but imprint on each other, forging a strong bond whether you want to or not. Yes, he may have done this with other people, but then the other factors come into play....
But that's the problem. Therapists are warned about this. It is never considered "ok." Ever. We, as psych students, get preached to about this. He knew that. He knew that from his first or second year of school. Doctor lose their lience to practise over that. They had a bond, yes, but in this case it unfairly gave power to Xavier. As does any patient/therapist relationship. That's why I have such a large problem with it. Simply because he, as a doctor, knew better, knew the best thing for everyone was to get away and stay away. And he didn't.
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Post by SmoothBamf » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:34 pm

I agree with almost everything you've said paty about writes and editors
but when I started this I was thinking of it as if they were real. (not chairtors that were ritten by manny writers over the cours of manny years.) Now by that logic if you look at it as if they were makeing there owen choises instead of "good" writers and "bad" writers the prof would defenetly be a .......

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Post by Paty » Tue Aug 03, 2004 11:07 pm

:mags
I have the same problem with Emma and Scott. It is a therapist taking advantage of a patient... a violation of the strict doctor/patient relationship! It doesn't matter if the patient agrees to it or even wants it! it is a violation of the code that medical personnel live by! It is wrong! And both these people knew it! Xavier and Emma! One liason resulted in illigitimate offspring that the mother wanted to keep seret from the father...Why secret? something ominous there, eh? and the other resulted in adultery.
And the people committing these acts are supposed to be heroes???
Not in my book!

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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:05 pm

I have to consider one thing in all this: the people doing the writing aren't therapists, doctors, or anyone else who truly understands the strict "keep 'em behind that glass" policy, nor the reasons behind it. It's frustrating, to be sure. There should be more research done. But when writers change so often, so do the characters.

I'm hardly saying it rationalizes the character's actions. There is no "making it all better". At best, Gaby and Xavier's situation was a horrendous, disastrous mistake brought about by immaturity or ego. At worst, it's flat-out abuse and manipulation. But, as I like to say, "There are no excuses: only reasons." At least with Xavier's little tryst, it's more of a black mark on an otherwise distinguished past, and there were a lot of other extenuating plot circumstances to lead him astray. With Emma....

:shame I'm sorry, everyone, but I've been out of the loop so long that I STILL see Emma as The White Queen: the narcissistic, sadistic, evil, revolting villianess. For her, manipulating people for her own selfish ends is just par for the course. I have NO idea why they brought her over to the "hero" side of things, let alone why she's being accepted in her current place by Scott's side. From what little I've seen, she hasn't changed her ways one iota. All she's done is made sure her targets are the "acceptable" kind now. It's like enlisting a serial killer in the army. Yeah, he's on your side, and killing your enemies, but that uniform doesn't magically make him into Audie Murphy.

Regardless of all the abuse they've retconned into her past to make her sympathetic, because of the choices she's made (and continues to make), she's no more a "heroine" to me than someone like Lobo. :yech

And thus ends my off topic foray from Xavier, a not exactly pure telepath, to Emma, a "you've gotta be kidding, me!" telepath.
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Post by Paty » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:06 pm

:mags
Bang on, Maelstrom! Emma is everything you say. she is still quinessentially the White Queen...she even dresses the part...so it must still be near and dear to her psyche.
and she's not universally accepted... especially with the seduction of Scott and the adultery issue. they are trying to gloss over the adultery part, but it is still there...staining the moral fabric of one of theX Men's stalwart icons. .. as it was meant to...sigh...

Xavier's behavior was questionable, what chris wrote in Uncanny 161 was innocuous... but what was done in later years with it made Xavier's behavior reprehensible... and that goes back to the fact that there are no responsible editors there to check such things and say "Hey... this can be taken this way and under no conditions can we allow Xavier to have such a black mark on his behavior.. we gotta find some other way to explain this!" that's is what a competant EDITOR is supposed to do! Writers will usually try to push the envelope... but editors are the downhill brakes and Marvel is apparently lacking any such animal . at least in theX books! Goddess help them if it is across the board incompetance of this degree!

And as to why they waould want to do this with Emma...well... Claremont did it successfully with Magneto and generated a huge, HUGE fan base for the character. So now, every writer trying to prove himself wants to "reform" a bad guy. Sometimes it works... like Austen's Juggernaut... who was made a much more interesting character when you see his underlying psyche...because his behavior has changed...as Magneto's did. But Emma...her behavior hasn't changed, so it is of no consequence that we know her background and formative factors. She hasn't learned anything... she is still a scheming bitch, taking what she wants without regard for others. Selfishness is not excuseable nor is it made palatable by explanatory factors. she's not a heroine, she shouldn't be there...and a few of the characters KNOW it...and say so. and THAT is interesting!
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Post by Northstars Love » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:37 pm

LOL!

I agree I see Emma as the White Bitch Queen myself. I was surprised to see her fighting side by side with the X-Men after a 12 year hiatus from comics. Doesn't anyone remember how she and the Hellfire Club tried to destroy the X-Men? Heroine? Nah. Self-Centered? You better believe it!

I feel the way Kitty does. I don't trust her. I wouldn't trust her to feed my neighbor's cat (had to use my neighbor's cat since I do not have one :P )
No matter what she does that is "good" it will never outweigh the "bad"
she has done. Perhaps an event will prove her more worthy of honor with the X-Men. hmmm...but even that is debatable.

Adultry? Never would have thought Scott would engage in such an act considering the undying love between him and Jean. All they went through. The good and the bad. Curse those raging male hormones! :LOL

With Emma? What the hell was Scott thinking? Or should I say, "What the hell was Morrison thinking?" :?

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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 09, 2004 6:44 pm

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**
Adultry? Never would have thought Scott would engage in such an act considering the undying love between him and Jean. All they went through. The good and the bad. Curse those raging male hormones! :LOL

With Emma? What the hell was Scott thinking? Or should I say, "What the hell was Morrison thinking?" :?
:scratch Hmmm.... Maybe they were thinking of having her finally betray everyone in the end? You know: the good guys bend over backwards, do all they can to reform her, and she just strings them along with their nice-guy attitudes. If she's supposed to stay evil and manipulate her way up to the top, then finally get taken down like the Black King, maybe it'll make more sense.

My take on it? Eventually, after stealing one-too-many men, and running the reputation of Xavier's school into the ground, all the women, and even Xavier, take matters into their own hands. During a "girl bonding" training course, someone takes Emma down in a rigged Paintball accident, as Xavier has dosed the paint with Thorazine and LSD. Deciding she's the Second Coming, she takes a walk across the top of the swimming pool, claims to be the lizard queen, and fittingly dozes off somewhere at the bottom of the deep end. During a curiously festive autopsy, it's discovered that she was a month or so pregnanat, and the writers promtply milk figuring out who was the parent of her unborn child for the next two years. Somewhere along the way, Scott Summers wakes up, screaming, in Bobby Ewing's shower...

(I'm sorry. I just couldn't resist. Sometimes these things do *so* resemble a bad soap opera... :whistle)
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Post by Gaz » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:00 am

Damn, why am I always late to everything?

I agree with most of you, and you all have pretty good points. My opinion of Xavier really depends on who's writing him. Certain writers give him a total compassionate feel, and other make him seem like the X-Men's evil boss. So I'm sill undecided on what I think of him, but I don't think that he descriminates on which mutants to allow in the school unless they have warped morals or severe hatred of humans or something like that...
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Post by Tatu » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:37 am

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**
Adultry? Never would have thought Scott would engage in such an act considering the undying love between him and Jean. All they went through. The good and the bad. Curse those raging male hormones! :LOL

But.. but.. Jean is DEAD, it doesnt matter that she MIGHT come back, she is still dead.. Wedding vows read "Until death do us part." And she is pretty dead, again. That doesnt make it adultry..
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