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Post by Northstars Love » Tue Aug 10, 2004 4:52 am

I'm talking about before! I know he's had sex with Emma before Jean died! I know! I know!


Men!!! :hrumph

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Post by SmoothBamf » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:15 pm

I don't think so, I believe that they only had a mental affair, which basically means he was thinking about doing it with her, but never did, and that is not adultery.

I was trying not to comment on the whole Emma thing (in the hopes that people would talk about the Prof) but heres my opinion. I like her, I just don't like her as a good guy. She's evil, always has been, and I think she still is. Now this is my hypothesis; Did you ever think that Scott was under her mind control and maybe she is sending out subliminal messages to the others saying, "Like me, like me" and since the Prof is gone, she can up the psychic dosage, so to speak, for now she has less fear of getting caught.

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Post by KnightKat » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:35 pm

OK, here's my off subject thoughts on Scotty...

First off, when you're with someone who is known as PHOENIX, except those vows to stick, 'cause she's coming back!!! Secondly, right before Executioner's Song, Scott was having a "mental affair" with Psylocke, while he was with Jean. Granted, this was before they were married, but its still cheating! Which brings me to my next point, a relationship, especially one as meaningful as Scott and Jean's is much more than sex, therefore having a psychic affair with a telepath is cheating!!! You are taking away an aspect of your relationship in trade for mentally "being" with another person.

However, I also think that Emma is using her powers to influence Scott, and that point will come out when Jean comes back.

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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Aug 10, 2004 9:45 pm

Originally posted by SmoothBamf
I was trying not to comment on the whole Emma thing (in the hopes that people would talk about the Prof) but heres my opinion. I like her, I just don't like her as a good guy. She's evil, always has been, and I think she still is. Now this is my hypothesis; Did you ever think that Scott was under her mind control and maybe she is sending out subliminal messages to the others saying, "Like me, like me" and since the Prof is gone, she can up the psychic dosage, so to speak, for now she has less fear of getting caught.
Oh, absolutely. I have no doubts that something like that could be going on.

As for trying to keep the talk to the prof, you have to imagine that when there are two powerful telepaths in the same group, both instructors in some manner, and both with dysfunctional pasts (Xavier's stepdad was as vicious as anyone could imagine), they're going to get the "comparison and contrast" treatment. Especially because they have so much in common, and yet have such radically different temperments and desires.
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Post by SmoothBamf » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:39 pm

All right, I'm a Scott fan (not a huge fan but he definatly has his place. He's the X-men's rock, the leader of the team, always! The time he lost leadership to Storm, it was later revealed that he only lost due to Madalyn Pryor's subconcoiness psyic interference. So the only logical reason for his current wishy washyness, is that Emma, another psychic is F'N with his head and that aforementioned Psylocke affair, first of all, she's another psychic. What if it was all her and she just wanted a piece of Scott, and second, he was still just thinking about it. But you might have noticed theyre all psychics. I believe that due to years of psychic conditioning by first (and most importantly, on purpose) by the Prof and then Jean joined in, and for years they trained him to open his mind to them, thusly weakaning his overall psychic defenses. Where they aware of the long term effects of the constant mental intrusions? I don't think either of them did, but I do think that the Prof meant to make it so he could go in Scott's head anytime that he wanted too. Yet at his younger age he did not see the long term effects of the process, when more and more psychics enter the picture.Tthe bottom line on it, is that Scott needs a Magneto helmet to keep the psychics out.

So, Maelstrom, are you excusing his actions or just reasoning them?

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Post by Paty » Tue Aug 10, 2004 10:45 pm

:mags
Jean is not legally dead without a proper death certificate...which I doubt was issued, since they expect the Phoenix power to bring her back sometime... and if she comes back and is legally dead, then she has no identity or legal standing as an American citizen. I think xavier would want to avoid that... so, to keep the supposed corpse from stinking up the air, they bury it ont he grounds. they DO have a private cemetery on the grounds.
but... Jean, before her stupid demise...and it was too stupid to be real... walked in on Emma and Scott. Now she didn't catch them doing the woppadoodle dance... but it was obvious that they had been doing it...since you don't have to take your clothes off to have a psychic affair... and the cuckoos knew what was going on! Emma didn't exactly hide it...she, being the SOUL of discretion! right! It was adultery then...it is still, by my lights. Until I see or hear of the prof saying that "Jean's Death Certificate is gonna cause us some problems" ...because faking a death is probably a crime too...I am not gonna buy that the "death do us part" thing holds any water at all.

Now... as to whether Scott did the dirty with emma of his own free will is another kettle of fish altogether. Scott is niave... he is stupidly niave where it comes to women and their schemes and such... especially a bitch ROYALE like emma. and Emma's power directly affects male hormones and that questionable thing called the male mind! In this case, allshe had to do was relocate his brain to his scrotum. and VOILA! instant affair. scott wouldn't know what hit him...and still doesn't. she doesn't get that FAR from him, does she...not if she can help it. It would be the one thing Marvel could do to salvage this moral mess and put the blame where it belongs at the white Queen's door.
Personally I have never cared for Scott. He is stuffy, childishly niave, and somewhat rigid in his outlook. But he was the moral strength of the X men. Having him kill without even a word of angst later...as happened with the mercy killing thing...and then havehim not say a word when wolvie and phantomx blew up a space station...with presumably hundreds, if not thousands of EMMMPLOYEES on it...as well as the bad guys they were trying to take out.
no "hey... isn't this gonna kill some innocent workers? or do we just assume that cuz they are here, they are bad guys?" nooope... not even a demur. A friend pointed that little glitch in the devolvement of Scott...it had slipped right by me...I, niavely assuming the station to be deserted... but the friend assured me it was not. Sigh... blind eyes... I miss crucial stuff sometimes.
the law is...if you are present and actively helping an act to be committed...you are an accessory! Penalty is the same for accessories as it is for major movers in homicides. So, since the raid on that action was a vigilante action... with no official sanction to cover them under rules of war... they are mass murderers! this isn't gonna bother Wolvie...or Phantomx, I would assume... but SCOTT!!!??? Morrison couldn't have done a better job of sabotage on a characte if he had been paid to do it...was he?

Total destruction...and Morrison meant it to be. The breakdown of the most moral character in the X Men.the destruction and villification of Magneto after years of character development to the contrary...the total wimpization of Xavier...who just sat there with an almost sinister face while the ersatz Magneto took out Jean and then Wolvie took out Mags.
Man... that was soooo surreal that I cannot see how anyone took it seriouslly! It had as much validity as giant watches melting themselves over your friendly neighborhood oak tree!!!
the white Queen business is the tip of the Morrison iceberg aimed right at the prow of the Titanic/Marvel. But in this case it was aimed on purpose. What is up for grabs and interpretation is ... was it aimed with malice to do damage to the corporate giant...or was it just total ineptitude and stupidity on the part of Morrison AND Marvel? thems your onlly logical choices, people.
My money is on the former. with a dash of the latter thrown in as icing on the mudpie.

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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Aug 11, 2004 3:44 pm

Originally posted by SmoothBamf
All right, I'm a Scott fan (not a huge fan but he definatly has his place. He's the X-men's rock, the leader of the team, always! The time he lost leadership to Storm, it was later revealed that he only lost due to Madalyn Pryor's subconcoiness psyic interference. So the only logical reason for his current wishy washyness, is that Emma, another psychic is F'N with his head and that aforementioned Psylocke affair, first of all, she's another psychic. What if it was all her and she just wanted a piece of Scott, and second, he was still just thinking about it. But you might have noticed theyre all psychics. I believe that due to years of psychic conditioning by first (and most importantly, on purpose) by the Prof and then Jean joined in, and for years they trained him to open his mind to them, thusly weakaning his overall psychic defenses. Where they aware of the long term effects of the constant mental intrusions? I don't think either of them did, but I do think that the Prof meant to make it so he could go in Scott's head anytime that he wanted too. Yet at his younger age he did not see the long term effects of the process, when more and more psychics enter the picture.Tthe bottom line on it, is that Scott needs a Magneto helmet to keep the psychics out.

So, Maelstrom, are you excusing his actions or just reasoning them?

I, too, have wondered just what the HELL is going on with Scott Summers as of late.

Yes, he's the proverbial by-the-book cop, a rules only, way too damn serious, stick-up-the-arse kind of guy, but considering how uncontrollable and lethal his power is? It all made perfect character sense. Of COURSE he's a control freak. When you've got that kind of firepower and destructive ability, and it's only a fragile mechanism of quartz that can hold it back, you're going to try and control it and everything around you to the level of a micro-manager, if only as a coping mechanism. Because you have a conscience, you're terrified of the consequences of losing control, and because of that power you're only slightly less screwed in the "I can't live in the normal world" department than someone physically different like Kurt.

I've *got* to believe that he's being psychically manipulated on one level or another. I *have* to. Because for him to just up and have an affair with someone who directly lead to Jean's reversion to Dark Pheonix, and, hence, her demise, just... doesn't make sense any other way. It would require a complete breakdown of everything that is Scott Summers to willingly fall in bed with the enemy (no matter whose side she's currently on). Let alone fall in bed with the enemy who destroyed your life and your fiancee's. And whose actions and personality haven't changed a bit since that time.

Forgiveness requires a sense of contrition and a willingness to change on the part of the one to be forgiven. Even if you screw up occasionally, as long as you're honestly trying, that's what's required. Emma hasn't bothered, and still Scott is in an affair with her.

Not even "Father Kurt" is that willing to forgive and forget, and Scott shouldn't be, either. Which means either he's gone utterly and completely around the bend, and is no longer Scott, or he's being psionically manipulated. (Again. :rolleyes) And considering how important Scott is to the team? The icon he represents? I'll take the latter. I just hope that this is the explanation the current writers choose as well... because I don't like seeing icons fall like that. :(
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Post by scheherazade » Wed Aug 11, 2004 6:25 pm

Originally posted by Paty
and then havehim not say a word when wolvie and phantomx blew up a space station...with presumably hundreds, if not thousands of EMMMPLOYEES on it...as well as the bad guys they were trying to take out.
no "hey... isn't this gonna kill some innocent workers? or do we just assume that cuz they are here, they are bad guys?" nooope... not even a demur. A friend pointed that little glitch in the devolvement of Scott...it had slipped right by me...I, niavely assuming the station to be deserted... but the friend assured me it was not. Sigh... blind eyes... I miss crucial stuff sometimes.
*laughs* going off topic for a bit here... Have you ever seen the movie Clerks? well, in it, a character makes the same moral case about the destruction of the under construction Death Star in Return of the Jedi.

just to add my 2 cents to the Cyclops discussion: I personally think his uncharacteristic behavior and suceptability to Emma's psychic attentions can be attributed to fallout from his stint as Cyclopolypse. I remember, after he and Poccy were torn apart by Phoenix and Cable, here were a few hints that it may have altered his mind, and it was never resolved. (correct me if I'm wrong) I, personally, would blame that more than Emma or the Prof, and would say that Emma is unknowingly taking advantage of that weakness, and not seeing it because she wants to believe that Scott wants and loves her.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Wed Aug 11, 2004 9:20 pm

First of all paty almost all comics are surreal. Now lets look at that word - websters online dictionary says "having the intense irrational reality of a dream" now that alone should cover it but I went a step further and looked up the prefix sur now sur means over, upon, above or beyond and I'm fairly certain that every one knows what real means, so using the appropriate definition we get beyond real which fits comic books to a tee. You just don't like Morrison. Which forces me to reiterate my self - PLEASE THINK ABOUT THESE CHARACTERS AS IF THEY WERE REAL.

Now here is my explanation for Professor Xavier's actions or lack there of when mags killed jean and when logan killed mags. Although he may be the most powerful psi on the planet he is still human with human emotions ( he's not Mr. Spok you know)so it is not a stretch to say that maybe he was in shock of the mass destruction, of the fact that mags had become a druggy, of the fact that mags had been living under his nose for months with out him knowing, of the fact that he had entrusted a class of children to the supposed mad man, of the callus disregard mags' had for human life this time (ya I now mags has always threatened humans but how many times has he ever gone through with any of his plans ) or maybe he was fully aware of what was going on and he simply chose to do nothing because he saw an opportunity to get rid of his primary rival as top telepath. I like to think it's the latter because it supports my original theory.

Thank you :bamf

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Post by Nightcrawler ZERO » Thu Aug 12, 2004 12:05 am

Originally posted by SmoothBamf or maybe he was fully aware of what was going on and he simply chose to do nothing because he saw an opportunity to get rid of his primary rival as top telepath. I like to think it's the latter because it supports my original theory.

Thank you :bamf
Well, he did kill the first other telepath he met.....anyone remember Amahl Farouk, bettr known as the Shadow King?

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Post by Dezzy Dragon » Thu Aug 12, 2004 6:48 am

Yah but the Shadow King was trying to kill him at the time. I see it as self defiance personally when the professor killed him. I like the professor even though I know he is not this goody too shoos. Some times you half to be sneaky and manipulative to get things done. What do you think parents and teachers do every day? :smirk

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Post by Crawler » Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:57 am

f you wanna psycho analyze, Scott had lost Jean so many times before that he was scared to death of losing her again.

And she started becoming Phoenix again...

So he pushed her away in the best way he could find.

But oops...he also fell in love with Emma...or at least THINKS he has.

I don't think he can be alone.

Scott is not an independent pillar of strength. He's the natural leader because he wholeheartedly believes in whatever cause he's fighting for. The problem is that HE HAS TO HAVE THAT CAUSE, or he's nothing, in his mind. He doesn't believe in himself. He latches onto other things to believe in.

Jean was slipping from him again, so he found a replacement.
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Post by Paty » Thu Aug 12, 2004 7:25 pm

:mags
ALL literary creations are surreal. they are not real. they may represent things or qualities we designate to them, but hey are not real. I may have hot juicy dreams of Magneto...but I know he is not real...But he represents a quasi reality that I find intriguing.
SB, child...do not seek to instruct me in English compositional literature... you haven't the wherewithal.
You want Morrison's drek to be canon. He is ephemeral in the canon of the X Men and most of his ill written crap must needs be and most probably will be retconned or explained away as alternate reallity or alternate timeline. He did it to himself with his over the top temper tantrum called Planet X.
when we read any literature, we accept the lives of the characters and their personalities...their surrounds and adventures as real. To do this, we engage in something called "suspension of disbelief". So, we accept things like mutants, superhuman powers, cosmic abilities, alien civilizqtions and alternate realities as reality...of a sort. It is, at least, reality within the covers of the book. ..or the movie screen...or the tv screen...or whatever medium you choose to be entertained with or by.

The "reality" of X dom has existed for a long time...especially for some of us..and especially for those of us who were concerned with the construction of that reality. It has been here long before many modern day readers were born. It will, hopefully, exist long after they have found something else to destroy. or cavil about. The personalities of the characters are fixed. They have to be. A character has to have a core personality around which to build conundrums for him to wrestle with. If the personality is fluid or unstable, you don't have story possibilities because the character cannot be counted on to react to given stimuli in a certain way...and the possibility of interesting moral confrontation diminishes with the moral ambiguity of the character. Only an inept writer would seek to change the core of characters...to destroy long standing dialectics and confrontations which have been used for decades to teach moral lessons and to initiate discussions and examination of moral and social issues. The truly talented writer would take up the characterizations and use them to present his or her own viewpoints through competant storytelling.
Such destruction as Morrison wreaked shows only his inepitude, not his talent...which I assure you, he does have when he chooses to do a little actual storytelling.

A thirty or forty year history of multilayered canon is hard for some people to deal with. For people who like the characters, it is not. It is a confirmation of the core personalities they have come to enjoy and accept. It is adventures that if you care to go back and read will give you a rich background with these characters...lots of fine stories...lots of conundrums...stories that have kept thousands and hens of thousands...and hundreds of thousands of readers rapt for decades.

In literature, it is a given. there are no new stories! There are only variations on existing themes. Love/hate... right/wrong ... good/evel ... simple complex...moral/immoral. Competant utilization of these themes is why you can use the same characters over and over again in different situations... in different timelines...in different eras. And ,if the storytelling is good and competent, with regard and respect for established characterization, the stories can be fresh and pertinent to modern day experience. Robin Hood and King Arthur speak as strongly to us today as they did centuries ago.
But destruction of established characterization for destruction's sake is vile...and serves no purpose ...except to destroy. It is vandalism. At that point we need to step back and see what is being destroyed...and why.
Morrison was like the moron who took a hammer to Michaelangelo's Pieta... damaging something valuable and loved by many...not beyond repair, but in such a way that it will never be the pristine masterpiece it was before. Marvel had a workable comic book reality that Morrison took a hammer to...he's a vandal...not a creator. Marvel trusted him with their properties. Other writers have shaken readers up before him...but left the surreal reality for others to play with. All Morrison did was to destroy...and then, arrogantly skiip a century and a half into the future in anfort to cement his changes. and then, he skipped out. He didn't change to build something...to stay around and create something new and wonderful from the ashes of his holocaust. NO. he skipped out, even as he was being offered another two year contract. Marvel must have been mad or befuddled.

Morrison's Magneto was not the real one. It is canon, kiddo...so THAT explains why wolvie didn't know it was "Mags"... why Xavier didn't know it was "Mags"...why so many things didn't make sense. Marvel marches on...as it always does. Not every reader will be happy with everything done.. but Marvel has to rescue it's valuable properties and get them back to where a vast majority of the readership will accept them and want to buy gMarvel's products, again. because the "reality" that they like and want is far more important than the epherimal reality of one inept writer.
While Marvel seems to want to keep some of Morrison's run...the less crazed part...I wouldn't bother if I were them. But that's their choice. their properties...their choice. Hopefully, Marvel will be around telling stories of heroes long after most of us are gone. But if you find a cancer in your body, you gotta cut it out if you want to live a longer, healthier life. Planet X is the most virulent kind of literary cancer i have ever seen. Possibly interesting to a pathologist... but deadly to the body it is growing in.

You can give the cancer reasons for existing... you can understand it's drive to exist. And you still cut it out of an otherwise healthy body. It has no right to sit there, fester, contaminate the surrounding body of work and destroy it. It may have a life of it's own...but it is a corrupted life and must be excised.
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Post by Maelstrom » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:12 pm

Originally posted by SmoothBamf

Now here is my explanation for Professor Xavier's actions or lack there of when mags killed jean and when logan killed mags. Although he may be the most powerful psi on the planet he is still human with human emotions ( he's not Mr. Spok you know)....
Actually, Spock, like all other Vulcans, has emotions. He just buries them. ;)
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Post by SmoothBamf » Thu Aug 12, 2004 9:39 pm

First of all DON'T CALL ME CHILD. I may not be as old as you and I have never worked in the comic field but that does not give you the right to talk down to me. Second your not telling me anything new you are just regurgitating information that if you don't know, you are more than likely young or stupid

You know I was not, and am not, a huge Morrison fan in fact I did not Purchase any of his run because I couldn't stand the artist (I mean seriously he gave all the girls camel toe) but you can't just say what he wrote never happened. I think your just mad because Morrison killed Mags. He didn't just kill Mags once he did it twice. I know it wasn't the real Mags but at the time the reader was led to believe that it was and I know that the first time that he killed Mags that Mags survived but once again thats not what we were led to believe at the time. I agree that his future story will probably get written off as an alternate time line but the rest of his stuff their already using

Peoples personalities change so why not characters? I do however believe that it should make sense, which if you look at Scotts history with psychics....and read my post again. his current state makes sense, now they just need a good writer to rap it up and bring him around as a more self-confidence as a hero. With him and jean as the first family of the X-Men, the way it shoud be.

but we're geting off topic I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT NOT COUNTING STUFF JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE WRITERS THIS IS ABOUT THE CHARACTERS

BTW. again....don't call me child

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Post by Maelstrom » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:15 pm

SB... Hold on a moment. Things are spiraling out of hand, here.

Paty has been around long enough to be the mother of anyone here: with some of the youngest members, she may qualify as "grandma". That kind of gives her the right to call anyone "child".

Second, though you may or may not realize it, you were rather patronizing to her in your posting:
First of all paty almost all comics are surreal. Now lets look at that word - websters online dictionary says "having the intense irrational reality of a dream" now that alone should cover it but I went a step further and looked up the prefix sur now sur means over, upon, above or beyond and I'm fairly certain that every one knows what real means, so using the appropriate definition we get beyond real which fits comic books to a tee. You just don't like Morrison. Which forces me to reiterate my self - PLEASE THINK ABOUT THESE CHARACTERS AS IF THEY WERE REAL.
We're all guilty of posting hastily at one point or another: Lord knows I've done it enough times. But this? :shame Honey, this was a little over the top. It made me wonder why you were treating a veteran writer like a 2nd grade student.

Sometimes it's difficult to get your point across in a coherent fashion. Words are tricky that way, and everyone understands that. But getting angry, eliminating punctuation, pounding a post out in haste, and screaming in all caps isn't going to make things any clearer. :shame
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Post by Crawler » Thu Aug 12, 2004 10:33 pm

Age does not always beget wisdom, Amy.

And SmoothBamf was quite coherant, and has a valid point and was simply trying to explain the story within its original confines. Just because it has since been changed doesn't mean we can't speculate about the original intent and ideas.
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Post by SmoothBamf » Thu Aug 12, 2004 11:06 pm

Originally posted by SmoothBamf

but we're geting off topic I DON'T WANT TO HEAR ABOUT NOT COUNTING STUFF JUST BECAUSE PEOPLE DON'T LIKE THE WRITERS THIS IS ABOUT THE CHARACTERS
I would like to appologize for the statement above this isn't my board and i don't dictate what people talk about.

So what I meant was that There are also those writters that do things with our favorite characters that we consider stupid (Nightcrawler as a priest) but that dose not mean that it didn't happen. even if it gets explained differently later... it still happend. we move on and hope that every thing gets explained well. So I was hoping that we could focus the disscusion on the characters and what has happened to them reguardless of who wrote it.

:)

I didn't know who Paty was and I didn't read her profile untill after she called me child. I didn't mean to offend. I just thought it was used wrong and I looked it up to make sure. I posted simply to clairfy. When I reread my post, you were correct it did come across a little high and mighty. I'm sorry it was not meant that way

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Post by Paty » Sat Aug 14, 2004 12:10 am

:mags
I have been known to call Johnnie romita, who is thirteen years my SENIOR..."kiddo"...My youngest son is thirty four years old...and i call him"child" too. I only use dictionaries for cutthroat Scrabble games and i was licensed in three different states to teach english compositional literature. lookit, people , as I said in my profile, I am old...sixty two at present... and very opinionated. I have even told Stan Lee off to his face and had him quaking in his boots. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Maelstrom, dear.. many thanks for the calming words. Dave says that often I come across as a tough old cookie... and he is right. I AM a tough VERY old cookie...LOL. It's the english teacher in me as well as the art teacher in me...and the firefighter...and the damn thick hide I acquired working eight years on staff at Marvel. In retrospect, I had less trouble with burning buildings...at least you knew the enemy there.

No matter... this is a thread ostensibly for discussing Xavier's foibles. that we go off topic to discuss other characters related to him and his reality is logical. I am well aware that we must deal with the two years of total drek that Morrison spewed forth. I applaud smooth bamf's decision not to buy the issues... I wish I had not wasted my money...and I didn't buy the issues of the "future" arc...but we were having discussions about what was happening on another list and i felt it imperative to know what the hell I was talking about. It is difficult to comment coherently and intelligently on a topic if one has not read it... and my comic shop is not a reading library... they SELL comics...si if I want toread them, I have to buy them...sigh... alas... so I had to buy the books...and ...ugh...read them. PTUI! Other canon in the past has been relegated to alternate timelines...as I am sure a lot of this will be.
The problem with the industry is that anything that is printed does, indeed, become canon...sometimes unfortunately. Editors are supposed to keep really destructive or inane stuff from getting into print...especially if a writer is known to be a "wild card"... as Morrison is known to be. giving him carte blanche was right out!
so now...yes... the readership has to deal with this crapola. Changing it...explaining it away... as Claremont is doing with Magneto in Excalibur, seems to be the way Marvel is going. OK... Claremont is a seasoned and talented writer who works hard at his craft. He will do it...I have no doubt. and I may not like everything he does... I do not require that I like everything a writer does...LOL... but I gotta like SOMETHING a writer does. With Claremont, I will have no problems. He built the X Empire that others have tried to tear down. He'll rebuild it..if they let him. so we now know...in canon...and confirmed by Marvel editorial.. that the "Magneto" in Planet X wasn't Magneto at all... well... it couldn't have been. As I said before all this brouhaha started, the whole scene was.. within the surreality of comic book reality...surreal. Or, super surreal, if you get down to brass tacks about it. At least it was to me. The art told a different story than the one we were supposed to believe in if we merely read the copy or listened to editorial hpe that this was 'real'. Editors lie through their teeth and the copy was insider innuendoes that you only understood if you were "in the know"...not "in " jokes, cuz it wasn't very funny... but definately puerile "in" digs! In Planet X and, indeed, much of Morrison't run, there was a whole "rip tide" undertow effect that wasn't apparent to the casual reader. Sometimes this contributed to the frractured quality of the writing. Sometimes it was just blatant slap in the face...which the casual reader saw and said"what???where did that come from?" and then tried desperately to make sense of it...and there was no "sense" storywise...it was a private message aimed pointedly at certain people.
so I write Morrison off. for ME his storylines aren't worthy of existing in this space/time continuum. but that's just me.. and a growing number of correspondents...LOL. someone else wants to deal with it as canon...fine... but it is canon that is being changed and retconned because for the health of the company and the characters...it must be. From a financial, corporate point of view...it must be. It was just too destructive of the core personalities of characters you are portraying in movies...a much more lucrative vinue... as heroes!

I cannot separate my view of the books as a fan and reader from my view of books as a professional in the industry... who was charged with protecting Marvel's characters when i worked there. I just cannot. Then, when I see what I, as an english teacher, consider bad writing style being lauded as wonderful...I begin to wonder what kind of english they are teaching in schools these days. No one knows the difference between your... a possessive..and you're... a contractive any more...least of all certain editors ! they don't know the differencea between their, there and they're, either... something that totally warps me out as an english teacher. Proper usage tends to separate the literate from the illiterate...and if you are in the industry of printing stories, it is imperative that you know and understand basic english.
sigh... I used to snarf about this kind of crap twenty years ago...and it hasn't improved. snarf..snarf....

I love comics. They are a wonderful medium for fantasy and adventure and escape from the dreariness of every day life. They teach kids to read and transport them to worlds beyond their own little reality. They teach morals and values...and that's a very heady responsibility...for the professionals. The readers go blythely on talking about canon and this character and that character and treating the stories as reality..and that's fine. but beyond building realities that readers can accept, there is a responsibility to the genre that a professional must adhere to as a responsible adult. A responsible professional may do some tearing down to build something grander or different...much as a contractor tears down one building to put up another... but the responsible pro doesn't just tear down and not build something else. The responsible pro doesn't just tear down and vandalize and then leave. The responsible pro builds and creates....and enriches the genre rather than his own ego.

I am very opinionated about the biz I loved ...and still love. If that offends anyone... too bad. What is...is. and, in spite of protestations by others to the contrary... I know what I know...and I say so. It's my right as an American citizen to state the truth that my puny 158 IQ understands....before I slide headlong into senile dementia.
Magneto still rules...
Xavier still drools...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA

Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
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Post by SmoothBamf » Tue Aug 17, 2004 9:08 pm

Meanwhile, back on topic...
Originally posted by Gaz
Damn, why am I always late to everything?

I agree with most of you, and you all have pretty good points. My opinion of Xavier really depends on who's writing him. Certain writers give him a total compassionate feel, and other make him seem like the X-Men's evil boss. So I'm sill undecided on what I think of him, but I don't think that he descriminates on which mutants to allow in the school unless they have warped morals or severe hatred of humans or something like that...

All right Gaz, you say that the Prof does not discriminate against non-human looking mutants and would only discriminate at all if the person had moral issues or hatred of humans. So lets count the non-human looking mutants on current teams. First we have Nightcrawler, the only one of the nonhuman looking team members that was born non-human looking. Then we have Beast, who started human looking and has since gone back and forth between human and non-human appearances, and finally, we have Ice man, and the only reason he is on this list is because he currently can't change back into human form.
So we have only 3 non-human looking mutents and only one of them was born that way, and it's a pretty safe bet that Ice Man is going to regain control of his power and would no longer count.

Now lets count the former criminals; Emma, Juggernaut, Rouge and Gambit. All of these people have questionable morals, except maybe Rouge but she use to when she first joined. Thats 4 criminals too, only 3 nonhuman lookers.

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Post by Paty » Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:02 am

:mags
Well... there's Angel. or don't great huge wings count? Hard to hide, in spite of the improbable harness thingies Xavier was always having Warren stuff them into...LOL...
Early issues just didn't have many non human mutants extant... and the ones who were out there were anti social and/or of decidedly evil bent.
and don't forget... in early comics, which were simplistic storytelling... the good guys looked good and the bad guys looked bad. It was an easy way to recognize them in fight scenes. Banshee became a lot more agreeable looking when he joined the good guys and got cleaned up a bit...LOL. Even Rogut got some style when she joined the X group! Those X folk are upscale... yo gotta look the part if yo gonna be a hero, honey!

the diversification of ethnic, racial and oddball humanesque shapes came later... when storytelling started delving into the possibility that some good looking people could be evil and some grotesque people could have hearts of gold and be heroes. Nightcrawler was the first of these in the X books... but Ben Grimm/the Thing had borne that cross for decades in the FF. and then there was The Hulk...hmm...

Xavier began the school as a low profile operation and needed kids who could pass for human. grotesque mutants had not made their appearance yet to our knowledge.. or Xaviers..to any great degree. He had to pick and choose to establish his team and see if it would work. And it had to be a secret until he got the school established. so...no controversy, no weird people... nothing like that. It was mere expediency. and sometimes that's how you have to go. sometimes you gotta crawl before you can walk.

Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
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Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
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Post by scheherazade » Wed Aug 18, 2004 4:56 pm

Originally posted by SmoothBamf
Now lets count the former criminals; Emma, Juggernaut, Rouge and Gambit. All of these people have questionable morals, except maybe Rouge but she use to when she first joined. Thats 4 criminals too, only 3 nonhuman lookers.
only three non-humans? If you're going to bring in Emma, Juggy, Rogue and Gambit, you have to think about the non-humanesque characters that were their contemporaries as well. So, on that note, the non-humans now include: (in order that I think of them) Beast, Angel, Nightcrawler, Marrow, Stacy X, Maggot, Chamber, Pennance, Skin, Feral & Thornn, Xorn, Artie & Leech, ...

Then there's others that have minor physical mutations, but would pass for human until you looked closer: Storm (Hair, eyes, and facial structure), Longshot (three fingers), Gambit (freaky eyes), Polaris (green hair), Cable and Forge (bionic limbs), Northstar (pointy ears), ...

To be fair, the former villians on the team (not necessarily criminals, as most of the x-men are now technically criminals...): Banshee, Rogue, Juggernaut, Emma Frost, Marrow, Magneto himself, Sage (counts, even if she was a double agent), ...

The first reformed villian came on the team at the same time the first extremely non-human member did: Banshee and Nighty.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Wed Aug 18, 2004 9:50 pm

alright, I don't disagree with most of what you are saying scheherazade but to be fair, in my post I said on current teams (and I meant X-Men teams not X-Men affiliated teams. I'm sorry I should have clarified myself better) and the majority of people you mentioned are not on current teams

Also Skin is just lanky, not nonhuman and the Prof did not recruit Marrow, Pennance, Feral, Thornn, Artie or Leach they were all brought in by other team members and how could the Prof maintain his benevolent facade if he had turned them away.

now the people who you say have minor deformities. I think they could be over looked (except north star's ) because I personally have known people with green hair (dyed of course) The norms don't know that Polaris's isn't dyed. I also have friends that wear the effed up contacts so theres gambit's. In a comic book world, bionic limbs on a hero are not that out of the ordinary.

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Post by SmoothBamf » Wed Oct 29, 2008 2:42 pm

I have not been heer for a wile so since I started this way befor dedly genaces
and alot of bad stuff that the prof has dun has come to lite douse anyone agree with me now

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Post by Freak » Thu Oct 30, 2008 5:03 am

*coughs from the dust in this old thread*

Well, it's no surprise that Xavier has acted as a dick nowadays. Though reading the Giant Sized X-Men #1 recently, I think that for the time the choice of mutants was even more ballsy than just choosing some of those mentioned above: A black woman, a native American, a Japanese hero (American minority at the time), a RUSSIAN (now, if that wasn't ballsy at the time), not to mention a Canadian (:P). Also, the first non-human looking mutant, our favorite elf.

And it couldn't really have been more, at the end of #1 there were about 14 x-people around and it was still a long time until the big school complex.
:freak :andreas They're fighting!

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