Nocturne

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Post by prettyminotaur » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

I've just started reading Exiles in TPB, and gotten introduced to Nocturne. What does everyone think of her? I like her characterization, but I'm not too sure about her powers...they seem sort of useless, really...and the whole retractable tail thing is weird... :urg

[Edited on 6/6/07 by NachtcGleiskette]
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Nocturne is by far my favorite character of all time. She far surpasses Nightcrawler even for me....

What is useless about her powers? Read on, she uses them in great ways...being that she has quite a few (possession, "hex bolts", limited telepathy, etc). I could go on and on about why she's the best damn character, but my computer is achingly slow and its taking too long just to type this out...

But, with the retractable tail: it was never really a part of her character design...it was just an after-the-fact explanation for some artist mistakes. Lame, but what can you do?
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Post by Crocodile Hunter » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

I would marry her.

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Post by prettyminotaur » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

You like her more than Kurt? Whoa...
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

i am so angry because i typed out the best damn explanation as to why i love her more than NC and JUST lost the f***ing thing...and this computer is so slow its taking ten minutes to typr out one sentence. Ugh, I'll retype it later on tonight...
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by Confizzle » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Nocture is a great character I picked up New Excalibur because she is in it.

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Post by Tyros » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Nocturn is deffiately one of the coolest "new" (new as in the last 5 years) characters created. I lost all interest in reading Exiles after she left, and am overjoyed that she will be in a regular series now. I hope they do more with her relationship to her "parents." Anyone else think that she and Rachel should become friends? They are both from "futures" that won't exist in earth 616 (Rachel because her mom is dead, and Nocturn becuase her mom is insane).

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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Ok, now that I'm at home, I'm gonna try and remember what I wrote earlier that was lost....this is in reference to me liking her more then NC:

Nocturne hasn't been written by many different writers, so in ways, her character is still intact....though, I'm not too thrilled with Claremont's handling of her (more on this in the New Excalibur thread).....

Winick did a phenominal job of taking what should normally be seen as a one note character (as alot of the "child of" characters are) and giving her incredible depth, without having to resort to over-the-top angst. Califiore (TJ's daddy ;)) wrote a wonderful backstory which was broad enough to be incredibly relatable, yet specific enough to be her story, and hers alone. In ways, Nocturne lived a very normal life...(something which sets her apart from about 99.999% of the Marvel population). She was a pretty normal teen, rebelious, clashing with her sometimes overprotective father and his expectations......who can't relate to this?

I've said it before somewhere, but I see her as a character written for my generation (18-25 yr olds). She's young, she's fun, but she's not without fault entirely. In her short life as a comic character, she's had some very down to earth, humanizing moments.....granted, I have never been able to follow a favorite character from 1st issue to present before, so I don't know how often it is for comic characters to do this...

Umm..I think that sums it up.....yes?
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by Crocodile Hunter » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Alkuperäinen postittaja prettyminotaur[/i[
You like her more than Kurt? Whoa...


i didnt say that. Shes like a "female nc" so i would marry her.
Kurt is an guy. And cause im not gay i wouldnt marry kurt. :P

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Post by Hsu » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by Crocodile Hunter
i would marry her.
I wouldn't marry her, but I might consider going straight for her. ;)
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Post by Diablo » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

I definitely like Nocturne. I'm glad she's part of the 616 universe now, and I hope her daughter-sister/father relationship with Nightcrawler will continue to be explored in the near future. This kind of strong bound doesn't exist between Cyke and his daughter.
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

I don't know if it's the idea of a female Nightcrawler or the whole nightmare idea that no matter how careful you are, an alternate version of you could have kids with someone whom you, this version of you, have spoken to maybe twice in your life, and then this creepy-to-think-of-it offspring will then stumble into your reality and want some sort of familial relationship... but she gives me a serious case of the icks.
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Post by Angelique » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Well, I think for Nocturne to turn up in 616 reality and get on reasonably well with 616 Kurt shows a strength of both characters.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
I don't know if it's the idea of a female Nightcrawler or the whole nightmare idea that no matter how careful you are, an alternate version of you could have kids with someone whom you, this version of you, have spoken to maybe twice in your life, and then this creepy-to-think-of-it offspring will then stumble into your reality and want some sort of familial relationship... but she gives me a serious case of the icks.
Well, Nocturne being my fav character ever, i disagree with alot of this, but I do agree about the "huh?" factor of her and Kurt getting along so well.....if some kid showed up claiming to be my kid from anything, I'd be a little "WTF?"...as I feel if I was that kid meeting a younger, different version of my dad, it'd be a bit wierd..

But, then, Nocturne has yet to really be handled well since she entered 616 (baring the little bit that Austen did...he had an ok grasp on her.)
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by chicory » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Kurt's probably just thrilled to have a family member who's sane and fun to be around.

I still haven't read the Exiles, but I found some scans and summaries. I'm really liking Nocturne's character. She does have depth and she is very balanced as far as mutant characters go.

I'd be interested to know more about why you like TJ and what her flaws are beyond a gung-ho rushing into things.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by chicory
Kurt's probably just thrilled to have a family member who's sane and fun to be around.

I still haven't read the Exiles, but I found some scans and summaries. I'm really liking Nocturne's character. She does have depth and she is very balanced as far as mutant characters go.

I'd be interested to know more about why you like TJ and what her flaws are beyond a gung-ho rushing into things.
Read Exiles #16 and you'll know exactly why I love her...

Ok, I'll elaborate. I think I posted this all somewhere else, but I'm too lazy to find it...so I'll just repeat...let's see...

I love her because she was done right. The idea of her character is very ho-hum, even incredibly unimaginative. Daughter of a popular character? *yawn* Oh, from another universe? *pfft* But Winick and Califiore did it better than anyone I'd seen. Her character is sooo evident of her upbringing, shes one of those rare "had a great childhood, great upbringing. Parents happy, still together, love each other. Love me. Grew up well protected, even over protected." And she's taken from the place and family she loves, the only home she knows, and thrown into exile with a bunch of people she doesnt know. She has a good way of showing indifference to her exile, even enjoying it with the others (after all, she is in her early 20s. Time to leave home!). But it becomes obvious she's not so strong as she seems. Specifically and especially when she chooses to end her pregnancy after Thunderbird is left behind. It shows weakness in her character, which I really appreciate...and it's a real, tangible weakness that is relatable. (Not saying abortion is a form of weakness, but in this case, it's a great example of what I'm saying..and if you read Exiles #16 you know what I'm saying.)

I think first and foremost, she speaks to me, erm, generationally? Lol, is that a word? Exiles are actually what got me into comics, and I was around the same age as her character when I started. She made so mcuh sense, and I really relate.

Her relationship with her father is also SO normal, and I love it for that. They don't get along all the time, in fact clash alot. She rebels, and he gets angry, and it's such a normal, normal relationship for a late teen (as is described in Exiles...41 and 42 i think? I've mentioned it around...). I guess what I'm trying to say is its nice to find a healthy dose of normality in an otherwise abnormal character....

I hope this all makes sense. I could go on, but I'm havign trouble recalling everything I want to say...this is the basic stuff though...

:nocturne
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Post by chicory » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Apocalypse attacks NYC every Tuesday, and Nocturne has a (terrible) band called the Butt-monkeys? I'm liking Exiles already!

I still haven't read Exiles, but I found some scans and issue summaries for #16 and #41-42.

The more I read about Nocturne the more I like her. I saw the page where nocturne meets blink a long time ago. (I always imagined they had a special friendship)

I was wondering:

Which Phoenix is in books 41-42?

Does the Scarlet Witch ever interact with her daughter in the series? (not a counterpart I mean)

How old is TJ when Exiles begins?

And why was she chosen to be an Exile?

I also like how well-adjusted she is and I can see why she would want to get back home to her own world (despite how strict her dad is!)
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Post by Nandireya » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by chicory
I was wondering:

Which Phoenix is in books 41-42?
I think it’s the Phoenix force inhabiting the dead Colossus’ body…so she kinda looks like an armoured Jean…
Originally posted by chicory
Does the Scarlet Witch ever interact with her daughter in the series? (not a counterpart I mean)
Nope...she only appeared in that arc in a news report on the TV...she doesn't interact with her husband either, the only time I've seen the three of them together is in X-Men: The End when the older 616 Kurt and Jean are taking a walk through her memories in hopes to break her hound programming...
Originally posted by chicory
How old is TJ when Exiles begins?
Around 20...
Originally posted by chicory
And why was she chosen to be an Exile?


Her timeline was altered and her grandma killed her dad and she has to fix things so she can be born...
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by Nandireya

Nope...she only appeared in that arc in a news report on the TV...she doesn't interact with her husband either, the only time I've seen the three of them together is in X-Men: The End when the older 616 Kurt and Jean are taking a walk through her memories in hopes to break her hound programming...
I thought that little part of Xmen: The End was very cute...but also very confusing......actually, I had no idea what to make of it....is she still our AU TJ? Or is she a 616 version of AU TJ aka Kurt's actual daughter? But then, little of Xmen: the End actually made sense to me at all!

Wanda did appear in one arc of Exiles, but incidentally, she appeared in one featuring Weapon X, so TJ wasn't even there. I've really been waiting for a meeting between them, and was hoping HoM may have had SOME kind of interaction...I mean, come on! How obvious! Wanda goes crazy because she lost her kids....wouldn't introducing her to her "kid" have done something? She just wants to be a mom.....

OMG I was just remined of the issue (and I havent reread Exiles in a while, so the arcs and issue #s escape me) But the Legacy arc, which was IMHO one of the best. Where TJ is willing to sacrifice her life (this is after they lose John, fyi), but Mimick won't let her and takes her place....what a great arc man.

I MISS WINICK!!!!! :bawl

EDIT: Chic, I checked out that link to the issue 16 synopsis..and man, it made me cry! No matter how many times I've read that issue, it still gets to me...:cry And rereading it totally reminded me how much I LOVE Thunderbird...(well, Exiles Thunderbird)

You know...I have half a mind to scan the rest of that issue...everyone should read it....

[Edited on 29/1/06 by NachtcGleiskette]
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by Confizzle » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Yeah I think some Wanda/T.J. interaction would have been great... Wanda's kids in HoM were just creepy :shudder and T.J. would have been much better. But alas unless T.J. goes on a quest (it would be an interesting arc for New Excalibur) she's not gonna met Wanda.

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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Ok, so, yeah, I don't know how legal this is...but I truly believe this is one of the best single issues of any comic I've ever read, and of course believe everyone should read it.....so I filled in the pages between what Chic posted above. I'm linking it off site on my photobucket account. Anyone who knows more about these things than me and wants to delete this for whatever purposes, go right ahead...

Looking back on this, it may be a little tough to really appreciate this issue without having read the first 15 issues of Exiles. I mean, you can def get it, and def appreciate it, but there are little things, and scenarios you may not get. So here's my best attempt at helping with that:

Basically, we know nothing of TJ and John's relationship until the "i'm pregnant" in the "A World Apart" arc (issues 8-10 i think). It's one of those "What?" *rereads all issues before * "Ohhhhhhhh!!" moments. There are tiny hints all the way up, but it doesn't become clear they are involved until that moment. "Nocturne and Evensong" (16) basically goes back and clarifies the whole thing, how they got to know each other and what went on between them...and it really is such a heartbreaking read. So, the different scenarios seen in here are from different arcs up until that point. It's almost like a sitcom having a clips show, except with the clips you didn't get to see.....Ok, here they are:

Page 1

Then you have the pages with Nocturne and Morph we saw on Chic's link...

page 7

page 8 (the word bubble ou can't read says "I like most flowers, Nocturne")

page 9

page 10

page 11

page 12

page 13

page 14 (word bubble up top says "Do you miss him?")

page 15

page 16

Then we have the pages Chic linked with TJ and John in the white house...

page 20

page 21

page 22

EDIT: I dont know why some are huge and some arent.....but its not a big deal, you can still read...

OMG what a great frikken issue...

[Edited on 29/1/06 by NachtcGleiskette]
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by chicory » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Nandireya, thanks for answering all those questions! :)

And thanks for putting up all those scans, Nacht! - and the background info. I like how the characters were living secret lives between the issues and the writers were planting little clues for the readers along the way. And then the surprise announcement. (I'll have to look into the trades now :D)

The team line-up all look like interesting characters - like they'd interact well and be worth reading about.

Though, there was something odd about the way that John Proudstar was drawn. The first issue made me wonder if Thunderbird was from an alien world where people were missing their noses. But, I guess the later issues corrected that. :huh
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by NachtcGleiskette
I mean, come on! How obvious! Wanda goes crazy because she lost her kids....wouldn't introducing her to her "kid" have done something? She just wants to be a mom.....
Gah! You just said you got the idea that alternate reality kids are creepy. Maybe, MAYBE, if it were an alternate version of whichever kids she lost, but not, like... okay...

Me: I just lost my babies, who I love more than anything.

Some... whoever: Here, this 20-something is your kid too! Just as good, eh??

Me: Hmm.. looks familiar... why does she look like [some guy] I went to high school with?

Whoever: It's your kid with [some guy]! Cause you had a baby with him!

Me: ....

Whoever: Yeah!? Yeah!! I'll leave you to bond now.

Me: .... How dare you try to replace my baby with a complete stranger? And an adult to boot! Also, I would NEVER have had sex with [some guy]!! *goes batshit, destroys world*

I might be off a bit since I didn't even know she had any kids. Except for Crystal. Krystal? Well, whatever. That one. I'm sure she hasn't had kids with Nightcrawler, and that's all that matters.
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Post by NachtcGleiskette » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic

Gah! You just said you got the idea that alternate reality kids are creepy. Maybe, MAYBE, if it were an alternate version of whichever kids she lost, but not, like... okay...

Me: I just lost my babies, who I love more than anything.

Some... whoever: Here, this 20-something is your kid too! Just as good, eh??

Me: Hmm.. looks familiar... why does she look like [some guy] I went to high school with?

Whoever: It's your kid with [some guy]! Cause you had a baby with him!

Me: ....

Whoever: Yeah!? Yeah!! I'll leave you to bond now.

Me: .... How dare you try to replace my baby with a complete stranger? And an adult to boot! Also, I would NEVER have had sex with [some guy]!! *goes batshit, destroys world*

I might be off a bit since I didn't even know she had any kids. Except for Crystal. Krystal? Well, whatever. That one. I'm sure she hasn't had kids with Nightcrawler, and that's all that matters.
Well, we're not talking about real people and their reactions, so it could have worked.....and she had two kids with Vision, who technically weren't kids because the Vis is shootin blanks...but they were twin boys (William and Thomas? Right?) and there was some whole big thing with them involving lots of crap...I don't really know much beyond that...

And in Wanda's complete insanity, I think you could have handed her a chimp and convinced her it was her kid and she'd have been totally satisfied..

As for John Proudstar, in Exiles he comes from Age of Apocalypse, where he is War, one of the four horsemen. Apocalypse did a total ovehaul on him, making him about 70% machine (obviously not the part that counts :smirk). He can shape shift to an extent due to his cyborgishness, and when he shifts to a more beastial state, his nose goes, he gets some digigrade legs, a crazy tail...he actually looks pretty fierce when he's completely shifted...
"If you live your life to please everyone else, you will continue to feel frustrated and powerless. This is because what others want may not be good for you. You are not being mean when you say NO to unreasonable demands or when you express your ideas, feelings, and opinions, even if they differ from those of others.â€

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Post by Executive Administrator » Tue Nov 29, 2005 4:38 pm

Nacht - that is some truly kick butt Nocturne info. you have been providing.
I am now re-reading my Exiles TPBs and re-living the magic because of you!

-e

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