So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Panz » Fri Jan 23, 2004 6:10 pm

Ok...first of all I am not Jewish (that I know, but then again my great grandmother was Bohemian, so anything is possible) and I am aware that it is a big time sport kicking the Jews around....but why? and why on earth take it to the level of picking on fictional characters???
Characters that are well thought out, have a carefully constructed back history, meticulously crafted personality?

Magneto and Kitty Pryde are both popular characters. Both of them have been treated like $hit? is there a connection? I think that there is....can some one help me out here....I am a freckled white Irish lass, back-sliding bad catholic, superstitious bog witch with eastern leanings...but I will NEVER understand prejudice. Why in the world would a company that has a strong Jewish population amongst its members, do such a thing? This seems from my naive little perspective a lot like shooting yourself in the foot. What is the business plan here???? if any one in the industry knows the secret, please email me, because this girl is baffled.

I confess, Kitty has always been my analog in the X-World...too much mouth, bookish, small chested and with a nice nose...strong, intelligent and too easily cares about others around her. But that does not mean that I don't (or, rather, didn't ) like Mags as well.

I have a series that I am writing and one of the main characters in this series is an FBI agent/single mom Paula, who I have designed as a modern american Jewish woman....I'm trying to do enough research to not have her be a stereo-type . But I wonder is it worth it to present anything other than white bread Ameri-Euro characters? does ANYONE get the picture that the world DOES not look like that???

Magneto made perfect, if humanly traumatized and flawed sense as Claremont wrote him. Wasd there any need in the story line that Morrison was telling to present him as less than human? Is Mr.Morrison incapable of seeing the deep complex, and sometime dichotomous personality and goals of Magneto, or did he just flippantly not care. I don't like critcizing another creators work, and yet at the same time, I am curious as to his vemum towards the character and his reason for systomatically tearing it down and destroying it. Anti-semitism or merely a bad bit of beef?

I am personally hoping for the flawed clone theory.

Thoughts anyone? Some rational answers would be nice. EDIT: Hey! look at that! I wasn't done ranting after all!!!


Sooooo....We are to believe that careful, cautious, paranoid Magneto didn't have a back up plan???? Who ever that was was NOT any Magneto I'VE ever seen.

It WAS Magneto?

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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby scheherazade » Sat Jan 24, 2004 12:31 am

Originally posted by Panz
Ok...first of all I am not Jewish (that I know, but then again my great grandmother was Bohemian, so anything is possible)


Eh, we can't all be perfect *g*

I have a series that I am writing and one of the main characters in this series is an FBI agent/single mom Paula, who I have designed as a modern american Jewish woman....I'm trying to do enough research to not have her be a stereo-type . But I wonder is it worth it to present anything other than white bread Ameri-Euro characters? does ANYONE get the picture that the world DOES not look like that???


yeay! And, yes, it is worth it. I've noticed that, when a non WASPy character/movie/show/book/whatever makes it big, a lot of people from different cultures can relate to it. (IE, my Greek friend and I compared Greek guilt to Jewish guilt after watching My Big Fat Greek Wedding) Way cool.

If you ever publish it, I'll stand in line to get it!
Sooooo....We are to believe that careful, cautious, paranoid Magneto didn't have a back up plan???? Who ever that was was NOT any Magneto I'VE ever seen.

It WAS Magneto?

RIIIIIGT... and I'm the queen of Ruritania


No, it was Joseph II, the evil robot clone of a clone of Mags. And it had a techno-organic virus from the future.
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby sevati » Sun Jan 25, 2004 4:22 pm

You know, I've been noticing more Anti-Semitism since the whole hoopla started about Mel Gibson's new 'Passions of Christ' film started being shown. Gibson's people have been sneaky bastards, putting false quotes.. attributed to THE POPE! To try to get good press. Because they know there will be serious backlash by Jewish Rights groups and their allies.

Jewish leaders have pointed out that it WILL raise anti-semitism in this country a whole lot. The idea of blaming an entire people for the death of a character from an ancient book (why YES, I am an atheist and am quite unpatient with Christianity of any kind, having been raised by Roman Catholic parents and forced into the religion) is absurd. It would be like blaming every German born since Hitler with the Holocaust, or every Muslim with the 9/11 attacks. The last example is bad, I admit, since many US Muslims and those percieved to be Muslims have been attacked and killed by racist bastards without a hint of an IQ since 9/11. I have no idea why educated citizens can't discern between 'terrorist' and 'man wearing a turban as affirmation of his cultural beliefs'.

Panz, is the save Magneto campaign still going on? Like, are they still trying to find a way to get Marvel to retcon Morrison's story arcs?
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:55 am

Originally posted by Panz

Magneto and Kitty Pryde are both popular characters. Both of them have been treated like $hit? is there a connection? I think that there is....


Me too... they're both owned by Marvel. :toothy
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby kladyelf » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:28 am

originally posted by scheherezade:

No, it was Joseph II, the evil robot clone of a clone of Mags. And it had a techno-organic virus from the future.

__________________________________


Oh no, what a mental image - Magneto the Paranoid Android :LOL
*klady smacks brain - bad brain, bad!*

I've yet to see Gibson's Passion Play and i'm sorry that you had such a tough time with your family and being forced into religion, - and anti-semitism isn't really a Christian thing anyway! (it isnt! - but people have been ignoring the bits of the Bible that they don't like for a long time... gah)



aaanyway - character abuse isnt a new thing and even tho Mags is dead, that never stopped ... The Retcon Machine! *Kraka-THoom!* Muhahahahaa! *cough*

perhaps you could get a petition going or something, "bring back Mags", post the URL on all comic-fan boards and let ppl who are disgusted with character abuse post on it - and send the thing to Marvel!!

just a suggestion mind you...
meddle not in the affairs of ficcers for you are malleable and easily .... O_o *stares* ooh is that a cookie?

Love your enemies - It will drive them nuts!

Crazy.... but in the nicest possible way....

To Stupidityyyyy - and beyond!

*after reading the latest gory/depressing "mainstream" comic* ....*sigh* that's it, I'm packin' up and moving back to the Eighties...
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Paty » Mon Jan 26, 2004 12:16 pm

;mags:
LOL...well, we should get Rivka over here to give a blow by blow of her battles with Hardass the EEEEVil!
but I shall try ot explain...she can correct me if I err...

back in the early nineties, after Claremont had created one of his most brilliant characters ...out of a nutball maniac, which was how Stan had always written him..the characterization of a complex, tortured anti hero to be a floil for Xavier's goody two shoedness...a person of prejudice came to power.
bob Harass became editor of the X group and was, apparently from all we can deduce of his actions over ten miserable years, harboring a great prejudice against jewish ANYTHING! He apparently wanted to make Marvel as WASP or WASC as humanly possible. He started by interfering with Claremont's depiction of Magneto...telling him what to write and how to write it. Claremont resisted until he could no longer stand it and refused to destroy his own brilliant creation. Harass kicked him off the X books and proceeded to try to destroy the characterization of Magneto as a charasmatic character of jewish extraction...he also turned Kitty Pryde's star of David pendant into first a filigree and then a pentagram...and snidely said, when called on it, Oh, the artist didnn't understand. We know he went in and changed or caused to be changed art that was correct in the first place. All references to any religion except Christianity were deleted from the books wherever possible..no synagogues in the backgrounds anywhere in NYC...that sort of thing.
Now, on occasion, there were writers and artists of such stature that liked Claremont's Magneto who wanted to do stories with him, that Hardass's plans for Mags suffered setbacks..like the Alan Davis stuff...but, in general, Hardass dictated the destruction of any kind of positive approach to the character...and the only reason we can surmise is that this popular character was Jewish! He tried to make him Gypsy...which didn't work. So he made him eeeeevil again in hopes that his devoted fans would become disgusted and desert him. But Claremont's characterization was too storng. Fans rallied to defend and challenge stupid storylines before they saw print!
Which caused the most recent attack on anyone who talked to the fans or alerted them to stupid plot lines that were being discussed...negating response until it was a fait accomplai! Canon! Immutable!
Yeah...right!
Anything in comics is mutable! That's comics charm!
Anyway, when Hardass became ed in Chief, he continued to carry out his pogrom of Jewish presence in the Marvel Universe. I am told there was also a dearth of any kind of ethnic presence to any great degree...something that in previous years, Marvel had prided itself on...the interweaving of many kinds of ethnicity into it's story lines. Marvel had had a great diversity of ethnic creators...Ron wilson, Keith Pollard, Jim Owsly, all black dudes... some oriental input and such...but these creators seem to have vanished...where have they gone? Well Owsly is still there ..although he changed his name to Chris Priest...but i dunno about anyone else.
In any event, in spite of the fact that Marvel upper management was predominantly Jewish, no one appeared to be minding the store...and Hardass did his little thing, tearing down in eighteen months what it had taken Claremont eighteen years to painstakingly construce...the X Empire!
And especially magneto. Hardass seemed to have a special hate for him. Why? Because he had a devoted fan following? Because he was jewish? Because he was an adversary instead of a mindless two bit villain? All of the above? His little friends didn't have the psychological wherewithal to write such a complex character...or understand him. So the obvious thing was to rake him back to his eeeevil roots...mindless insanity, meglomania and such...if he was Jewish, which it seemed he couldn't get away from, he was gonna be EEEVIL! But Hardass plotted to destroy or retcon the whole jewish angle.
Then the movie came out. Avi Arad, knowing Hardass would try to interfere, kept the Auschwitz scene, which firmly established Magneto's backstory, a secret ...inserting it only days before the premiere and swearing everyone who knew to secrecy. Hardass was blindsided...and livid! All his hard work ...shot to hell! He had also not done any merchandising to take advantage of the X film...apparently because he believed it would bomb...and was caught unawares when it was a howling success. this lack of money making spinoffs was one of the main reasons he got fired.
But his legacy lived on. Cronies Mark Millar and Jemas kept the destroy Magneto plots alive and all those cryptic references to old but good plots were direct stabs at the fans who thwarted the using of such inane plotlines ten years before!
Now, either morrison was as big a bigot as hardass and company...orhe was USED by them...his befuddled mind taking his cues from them...cuz there was no way, except for private input from the remaining Hardass camp that he could have known of the "old but good idea" thing that had been squashed years before unless someone from that camp had told him about it.
The whole planet X story arc was a big FU to the X fans...badly written, taking zinger shots at in-stuff...plotlines squashyed by the fans before they could see print, and such.
Claremont, when he came back, had to kiss major butt to get hold of some of the characters he cared about to try to save them...and he had to endure people rewriting and changing his stuff...but he hung in there until the tide turned...which it seems to have done, if our info is correct.
Rumor is that upper management has dictated a return to the Classic X Men..Claremont eighties style...giving Claremont back the Uncanny title and also the Excalibur title. Avi Arad probablly had something to do with that. He had a wildly popular magneto on the screen who should have been generating lotsa bucks in merchandising but he couldn't sell anything because he was being portrayed so badly in the extant books. So hArad pitched a fit and management woke up and smelled the coffee.
And about time too!
Hopefully Chris will retcon the whole Planet X arc outta canon as a fever dream of Xavier's...cuz it really reads that way...and the art backs this version up...buildings disappearing and reappearing...the rest of the Marvel shared Universe not being involved and NYC not being impacted in any of the other books. Hey, nitwits...this is a SHARED UNIVERSE here!
Even Morrison fans are strangely quiet about the whole thing...the ones steadfastly saying that he will wrap it all up and tie it all together are in for a rude awakening come New 154, I think. He can't tie it together..it is too fractured. and hejust wanted to moon the fans anyway...especially the ones that take their X Men seriously.
Stupid British egomaniacal shit.
Yeah...that's exactly what I think of him...and I have even harsher words for the imbecil at Marvel who let him get away with it..be it upper management who got duped by jemas or Joey the Q himself. SHAME ON ALL OF YOU!!! You don't deserve to be the caretakers of characters who are far more important than you are!Captain America, Spiderman and Magneto will be extant when you are dust! or scornedbecause of your lack of care for them and what they represent.
But i digress...the thread was the Jewish bashing.
Mostly, as far as we can tell, it started with Bob harass and continues to this day. It is a white male, christian boys club. Token ethnics, like Owsly...uh..Priest. Token females in minor roles..never as real creators on any project of importance or permanance.
Embarassing? Well, it should be! Illegal? possibly, but no one is gonna call em on it you can bet. they'll point to a girl assistant editor ...who will probably never make editor...or if she does, will not have any real power to hire more females into the boys club...but who will retain her position if she goes along...doesn't make waves and acts as a shining example for them to point to when the spector of disrimination raises it's ugly head.
Do I sound cynical? Yeah, I do. I worked at marvel for eight years...I know it's MO...and it hasn't changed..not really. People say it's changing...I have yet to see any examples concrete enough to believe in. the Boys club has closed ranks.
But upper management has finally stepped in..so we may see some ethnic relief...we may see some return to a diversified roster of characters...maybe.
We shall see.
You want real details on the Harass fight? talk to Rivka...she led the charge! And she's still fighting...hopefully , yes! to retcon this latest Magneto atrocity outta existance.
Letters to the powers that be requesting same would be appreciated!!! Don't bother with Joey...go over his head to the higher ups...especially Perlmutter.
Tell em what you really think of this latest abomination and demand a return to the Classic X Men characterization and a return of the REAL Magneto.
It couldn't hoit...
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Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Panz » Mon Jan 26, 2004 6:46 pm

I know that I really should, but I can't stand to read the rest of "Here comes Tomorrow". Several persons have mentioned that Morrison plans on having Hank do some odd bit of gobbledegook and send everything back in time to pre-destruction Genosha.
*shudder*
I have no idea where they get these rumours, but if they are true, what will this accomplish?

What happened to the much acclaimed Marvel continuity? if Magneto did in truth go bonkers and become EEEEVIL, destroying most of New York city....shouldn't this be addressed in the other Marvelverse books? I suppose Morrison will have the last laugh.

I do not understand how having a ethnically diverse cast in a comic book (or any other medium) could be a bad thing. I am sick of looking at the WASP/WASC world as depicted in most top books. The REAL world does not remotely resemble this depiction. I live in North Idaho, and am surrounded by white Christians. It is singularly dull. I grew up in big cities all over the world and will add my voice of protest to this white christian boys club mentality that seems to be the norm in comicville.

Magneto (and Kitty) were two of the most interesting and complex characters EVER ( CC this is all your fault for spoiling me :P How am I supposed to enjoy the fumbling attempts at story telling after this?) While I understand fully that comics are basically a young male fantasy medium, fantasy, if depicted as modern fantasy, to have any believabilty, should at least have it's feet based in freality as we know it.

1) I know that Claremont is fully capable of pulling a hat trick and repairing the situation with Magneto....He has likely thought of a jillion ways to make all the badness go away and bring back Mags...before breakfast even ;)
The big question is...Will Marvel let him?
I sense another fit of letter writing coming on from myself.

2) If any of you recall how terribly Sage/Tessa was depicted in "Murder at the Mansion", I don't think any of us should be surprised at how badly Mags as been depicted. I don't think it is at all required by Marvel that a new writer coming on to an existing title, familiarize themselves with the past contiuity or description of the characters in the least. With what has passed for X-Canon stories these past few years, how could it be? Artistic licence only carries so far. That having been said. From a logical thinking persons pov, How COULD that have been Magneto? As Paty has pointed out in the past, there is NO way that Wolverine would not have noticed. It has to have been either some nutso shaped changer with the ability to mimic powers, or a seriously altered and deranged clone. Before it was announced that X-Treme was goiing to be "morphed" into another title, CC had an arc that was called "16 Million" in the works. I had high hopes that he would rescue Magneto with that one. We still don't know what Morrison is going to pull in the end and so it is hard to speculate what could be done to bring "back" Mags.

I am seriously not amused by the idea that Marvel is doing it's own mini version of "ethnic cleansing" and want to see both Kitty and Magneto written intelligently i.e. by Claremont again. Who ever is currently on board over at Marvel that has a problem with ethnic diversity (as in NOT white bread American) needs to step away from the frat boy mentality and grow up.

I find it hard to swallow that this is just coincidence. From the few, very tactfully written responses to inquiries over at ComiX-Fan, that CC has written, he does not seem amused by the treatment of Magneto. I can only hold my breath and hope that Marvel will allow him to fix it. Rumor has it that some one other than Chris will be writting Kitty and I'm cringing.

P.S. Rivka, if you need any help thrashing jerks and idiots for the treatment of Magneto, by all means let me know. This kind of attitude belongs back in the 50's and has no place in the modern world.
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Rivka » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:09 pm

What Paty said about the Harras era is pretty much on target. There were a lot of details, office politics, and the like -- a lot of stuff going on back then we don't know about, I'm sure. I can only attest to what I know about.

I want to stress that the Harras era is past. And the guys from that time who are still on staff, or who -- to be more particular -- were/are involved with ULTIMATE X-MEN, especially Jemas and Mark Millar, hopefully are not in a posiiton to influence X-book writing any longer. Millar has a lot of explaining to do about what happened to the Jewish characters in the ULTIMATE UNIVERSE, in my opinion.

Joe Quesada is not part of this, in my opinion. When he first became EinC I wrote him (and Avi Arad) listing several of the anti-Semitic incidences that had happened, or were still threatening to happen -- this was about three years ago. And he was very responsive. Joe Quesada promised me then that as far as he is concerned, Magneto is Jewish, and he respects the Jewish characters. But at the time, it was Jemas running the show.

Now, I don't think Jemas is a Judeophobe either. His wife is Jewish, I hear. I really don't think Jemas is prejudiced. He's just a shock-jock. He hates continuity. He hates Claremont's 17-year long X-Novel called the X-MEN. And since most of the ethnic diversity and ethnic characters in the X-books were introduced under Claremont, Jemas in a de-facto way, was eliminating ethnic identities by way of eliminating all continuity and mentions of the characters' pasts.

This was however by no means completely adhered to. For example, in UNLIMITED X-MEN #38, a couple of years ago, we had the wonderful story of Kitty Pryde mourning her dead, called "Yarzheit" by Greg Rucka. I think Quesada and many writers and editors still want to acknowledge the ethnic, including Jewish, roots of their characters, but in the past Jemas wouldn't let them.

So, now that Quesada is in charge, we are finally going to see some changes, I hope. I don't really know, but I've decided to sit back and trust Quesada to RELOAD the X-Universe and I think long-time fans are going to be happy.

Now, that doesn't address the destruction, degradation, and humiliation of one of Marvel's greatest characters, Magneto. I am still very hopeful, based on what I've heard from Marvel, despite what Jill has heard, that Morrison's mess WILL be cleaned up! Magneto's dignity will be restored. I am not so sure about Marvel affirming his Jewish history, or noticing his Auschwitz backstory. I am equally concerned that Austen will tamper with Magneto's history in relation to his wife, Magda, who was a Romani survivor of Auschwitz, and whose age and link to WII can EASILY e explained while keeping her Magnus' wife and mother of Pietro and Wanda. IF Brevoort and Austen want to keep Magda as an Auschwitz survivor that is, they can. I am completely and passionately OPPOSED to any attempted retcon of the Magneto/Magda Auschwitz history, as I think -- this being comic books there are a hundred other ways to deal with the passage of real-world time other than get rid of the Holocaust history of these characters. Here, I do believe that a determined effort to erase the Holocaust history of characters from the comics IS prejudice. But, I'm just worrying, and nothing has happened yet.

As for Kitty Pryde, if Chris Claremont is writing he again, and if Marvel gives him the freedom to express the ethnic identiies of his characters again, I'm sure we'll see reference to her Jewish background. Heck it'll be great to see Kitty again on a regular basis, if she returns to EXCALIBUR. Or better yet, returns as a full-time member of UNCANNY's team.

The Magneto situation is fluid at the moment! I want to , I have to believe to preserve my sanity, that Joe Quesada is going to clean up the mess, not only the one made by Morrison, but the damage done to Magneto since Harras set out to destroy the character. I hope he'll turn Magneto over to Claremont once and for all! But if not, I think Joss Whedon knows how to write a complex Holocuast survivor who turned villain! I'm no longer so sure about CHuck Austen (sorry Jill) -- he won't listen, won't receive mail, and I've wanted to explain to him the situation. I'm so afraid that he won't clean up Morrison's mess, but will kiss Morrison's arse for the next how-many-ever issues of NEW X-MEN he writes. And yes, from my sources at Marvel, contrary to what some believe, Austen COULD restore Magneto's dignity if he wanted to.

As for my "fight" -- I'm tired out. I can't do this any more -- not like I used to. I have too many other things at present to worry about, and I am NOT a multi-tasker. :-) I keep saying that, but then I do things like spend all day Friday composing and pritning out new SAVE MAGNETO flyers with Paty's art on them.

Here's the text:

SAVE MAGNETO!
Please Help!
Take a Moment to Write!

Write Marvel in support of the tragic, conflicted adversary Magneto. Write in support of Magnus, survivor of Auschwitz and husband of Magda. Write in support of Magneto's complexity and history. Refuse to sit by and let Marvel turn Magneto, one of their greatest characters, into a one-dimensional monster and demon. Help stop Marvel from destroying some of the most brilliant characterization in comic book history.

[and then I give a list of names to write]

Joe Quesada, Editor in Chief
Allen S. Lipson, President and CEO
Dan Buckley, Publisher
Axel Alonso, Executive Editor
David Bogart, Managing Editor
Mike Marts, Editor

at: Marvel Enterprises, Inc.
10 East 40th Street
New York, New York 10016

*****

So anyway, back to the topic at hand. I don't know if Harras was a flaming anti-Semite. I'm told, to your face, he was always polite and nice. And he took care not to say anything racist or offensive, which if you read Chris Priest's account of working for Marvel in the past, you know wasn't always the case with certain employees there. Larry Hama was also the target of racist stuff, too. HOWEVER, the proof is in what you do in the comic books and in hiring practices, as Paty said! Not how nice you are in a conversation in your office.

Also, I need to point out that Ben Raab, who is Jewish, argued with me about my assessment of Bob Harras. He worked for Harras as assistant editor and then a writer on EXCALIBUR and other books. He used himself as an example, as in, Harras considered Raab a friend, he couldn't have been a Judeophobe. I don't know what to make of this. I do think we have to consider the contribution to the assault on Magneto's history of writers like Nicieza, and editors like Kelly Corvese, in addition to Harras. Corvese in particular would have been VERY happy to see every Jewish character disappear from Marvel Comics. And he was fairly open about it.

Personally, I am STILL waiting to see Magneto's time in Auschwitz shown on panel, and accurately too. All the writers and editors have to do is rent THE GREY ZONE, the movie based on the off-Broadway play about the Auschwitz SOnderkommando, to see how Magnus' experiences were completely pertinent to the adversary he became. I'm still waiting for Magnus to remember Auschwitz, and his Jewish childhood. I'm not sure if Quesada will allow that to happen or not. He doesn't seem to think it's necessary to make a specific reference to Magneto's Jewish identity. I think it is. Maybe Claremont can wrtie something about Magneto's Auschwitz history, and certainly about Magda and Anya and that terrible day in Vinnitsa when Magda ran away from him.

But the reluctance to mention Magda and Anya and Vinnitsa is more of a reluctance to reference any character's history, and an aversion to continuity, than a vendetta against Magneto's history.

Also, I want to praise Scott Lobdell, who tried valiantly to reestablish Magneto's Jewish history, and also introduced many ethnic characters. Cecelia Reyes, Maggot, Skin, and others. Much of Lobdell's efforts were blocked by editorial, or were undone by others after him.


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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Panz » Mon Jan 26, 2004 7:45 pm

I'll write Marvel again Rivka.
Thank you for the lovely response to my thread. I, too, think that Magneto needs his back story told, if for no other reason than to refute his depiction in NEW. As I said, there is the "16 Million" storyline floating around out there and CC has said to me in posts "Nothing is ever wasted, nothing is ever thrown away" I believe him and I believe IN him to lovingly restore Magneto. I personally don't want them to un-make the destruction of Genosha, it would make the perfect lead in for a great story arc with Magneto coming to personal peace with his past and resolving to move forward. It could be a tragic and horrifying story and at the same time evolve the character in new and interesting ways. I am looking forward to Re-Load as well. The sooner some of this stuf is swept under the rug, the better. Thank you also, for clearing up that this kind of prejudice is mostly a thing of the past at Marvel. I grouse a lot about some of the decisions that are made by the company, but I also like and admire so many folk that work there that it is very upsetting to think of this kind of thing going on there. I like Mr. Quesada and hope that he can steer Re-Load in a direction that is fair for all: characters, creators AND readers.

I'll go now, before I continue to rattle on....I'm snowed in and taking the chance to catch up on some of the things that I haven't had time to post about. :p But I really can chat people into catatonia.:LOL
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Paty » Tue Jan 27, 2004 1:07 am

:mags:
Ahhhhh...c'mon Panz...surely not catatonia!
LOLOL
Well, for some personal reasons, which I shall not go into here, I am not a fan of joey the Q...as he calls himself... but if he can get it together and let CC do his thing, both he and Marvel will benefit.
You don't have to negate the second Holocaust...as I like to think of Genosha...to retcon the whole mess...you just have to be creative with the past...and the characters you have to deal with. and you have to remember that in comic fantasy, NOTHING is immutable..well except the death of bucky Barnes! LOL...that is written in stone...tombstone!
but everything else is up for grabs. Well...maybe the original thundervbird...being blown to hell is a rather final thingie...hmmmmm...
Anyway, I will expect great things of chris...especially with relation to Mags and his history and the retcon or damage control that chris can bring to bear for one of his fave characters. I will trust Chris...cuz Chris knows I am the meanest mother in the comics industry and am in love with his Mags! So he jolly well better fix this unholy mess!!!
YOU HEAR THAT, CLAREMONT? YA DON'T WANT DA WITCH MAD AT YA, DO YA?

Ahem....
Now, where was I? Oh...by all means, Panz, write and encourage anyone of like mind to do so as well. It is time the diehard Mags fans started to make their voices heard again. Now that the new writers..or so called writers, have had their chance and muffed it so terribly. It is a time for a return to quality. It's about time that Marvel started to look at the quality of the editorial staff...editors cum internes by right of attrition don't work. there is more to editing than trafficking the books...even a writer as good as Claremont needs an editor who can ask questions, pint out pitfalls and show Chris when he has dropped the ball and what is his true path if he will only look for it and pursue it. Management needs to become aware that what they have is precious...it must be guarded and preserved and nurtured by mature, intelligent, educated proffessionals...not handed off to some slavering fanboy just out of high school.
As I have said before, I saw just such a turnover in the ranks, where an interne went from interne to editor in less than a year and a half at Marvel. if those practices are still in operation, it's no wonder Marvel's fortunes are in the shitter!
Here's hoping for a brighter day at marvel. if Q can pull it off, then, good for him. I will wait and see...but i will not buy New until Morrison's crap is HISTORY...and retconned history at that!

Rivka has so many insights into the time that I was not really reading the X books...a number of years after the horrible 304 issue of Uncanny that was so awful that I gave up in disgust and quit reading for years. and that was about the time she, Alara Rogers and Dannell Lites took up the Magneto banner I had stuck in the ground and walked away from. Only years later did I meet her and marvel at the fight that had been going on in my absence!
But one cannot stay away from the magster...so we plod on in spite of weariness, both mental and physical...to fight for the master!
LOLOL
Oh, what fools we mortals be...
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Sorte Springer » Tue Jan 27, 2004 8:47 am

I know how Magneto has been portrayed lately. I too don´t think Magneto in "Planet X" is the interesting three dimentional adversary that used to be one of the major actives of the X-men series.
However, how has Kitty Pryde been mishandlet?
I have not read the comics she appears in at present, please explain to me.
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Rivka » Tue Jan 27, 2004 5:51 pm

Originally posted by Sorte Springer
I know how Magneto has been portrayed lately. I too don´t think Magneto in "Planet X" is the interesting three dimentional adversary that used to be one of the major actives of the X-men series.
However, how has Kitty Pryde been mishandlet?
I have not read the comics she appears in at present, please explain to me.


Kitty is in good hands! Chris has her back, and she starred in MEKANIX, one of the best X-Limited series in years. So, I'd say for the last two years or so, Kitty Pryde has been handled beautifully. Claremont also wrote a great Kitty story in another UNLIMITED X-MEN, right before MEKANIX began, that showed her father's death in Genosha. I am very much looking forward to a return of Kitty Pryde to one of CC's regular new series, on a fulltime basis. Either UNCANNY or EXCALIBUR. At least, I'm hoping for this. Nothing has been announced, even hinted at, about the lineups of the RELOAD X-books.

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Postby Rivka » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:16 pm

Here's hoping for a brighter day at marvel. if Q can pull it off, then, good for him. I will wait and see...but i will not buy New until Morrison's crap is HISTORY...and retconned history at that!


I want to believe in Joe Quesada. Another very intelligent comic book pro/fan on the Claremont-mailing-list just admonished me, using examples, that I shouldn't trust Quesada.

But, I have to trust Quesada about Magneto. No tricks. You know, I've been writing the man for years about Magneto. I looked up some of my old letters yesterday -- I have said over and over how important, magnificent, unique, and historically accurate Magneto's Holocaust history is, and how pertinent to modern times, and the X-MEN core concept. I guess it's up to Mr. Quesada as to whether he agrees with that or not. From my point of view, it is the TRUTH, and it's harmful to Marvel and to their readers to wreck this wonderful character and suppress his Jewish Holocaust and other equally important (Magda and Anya etc) history.

BTW, it's SO good to see Paty posting again here. Paty is the mother of all Magneto fans. :)
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Jan 27, 2004 6:56 pm

Originally posted by Rivka
Kitty is in good hands! Chris has her back, and she starred in MEKANIX, one of the best X-Limited series in years. So, I'd say for the last two years or so, Kitty Pryde has been handled beautifully. Claremont also wrote a great Kitty story in another UNLIMITED X-MEN, right before MEKANIX began, that showed her father's death in Genosha. I am very much looking forward to a return of Kitty Pryde to one of CC's regular new series, on a fulltime basis. Either UNCANNY or EXCALIBUR. At least, I'm hoping for this. Nothing has been announced, even hinted at, about the lineups of the RELOAD X-books.

~Rivka


Jill has hinted that a "new guy" (I guess meaning someone who has never written her before) has Kitty. But they're still changing line-ups and messing with things apparently, so CC could end up with her yet.

Tell us already, Marvel! :P

And even though I don't really have much of an opinion one way or the other on the topic, this is an interesting thread and I enjoy reading the posts. :)
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Paty » Tue Jan 27, 2004 10:10 pm

:mags:
LOLOL...
Some people just call em a Mother....

Rivka is so funny about that. OK...I booted Claremont in the butt and told him that one fifty was the book he should do what he wanted to do with Mags...but I had no idea what he would do! No idea he would make him the most interesting character in comics! I was as surprised and pleased when I saw what he did...and did more of later... to give depth to this important character.
But, yes, I loved every piece of unfolding drama about Magneto's background. All that was chris's own stuff...everything he did with Mags was a surprise to me...a wonderful surprise, I might add. He had obviously been thinking of what he wanted to do for a while...probablly waiting for Byrne to go away so he wouldnnn't have to fight him to do what he wanted to do. byrne never liked Magneto and would oppose any attempt to make him "human" in his feelings and motivations!
But as long as chris wrote Mags, he developed him as a fallible person...with fears, loves, hates...just like everyone else. true, he gave him such a horrific past that the warping of his personality was so patently true to what could happen that you really FELT for this tortured man...and sighed for the heroic person he could have been had not he been caught up in the Holocaust...or even in the traumatic events of his post Holocaust life. and he gave him points of rightness...a different approach that had very valid observations and courses of action with regard to the Mutant Problem.
I had always said that Xavier's dream was a good dream...but he was approaching it with rosy colored glasses on....the same stance Chris had mags take. there were times i didn't agree with mags' reactions or deeds...but his reasoning was flawless...especially since it was grounded in experience with the human horde...not dreams of Utopia. but since mags was firmly cast as a villain, he always had to have a flaw...a glitch...and chris made them so plausible that you didn't mind them busting up some of the neat stuff Mags had planned.
OK...OK...so I am a devoted follower of the master. Heh...Ever notice that when Mags is getting laid regularly, he is SANE!!!??? It's true! He gets laid, he stops being crazy! Where's Rogue when we really need her???
I like that pairing. she can touch him without having to be stripped of her power...and if you have power and are used to the protections it provides, to be stripped of it is to become ultimately vunerable...an uncomfortable position, at the very least.

In any event, the future looks brighter with Chris back on Uncanny. He can fix this, and i firmly believe he will!!! Especially to get Mags back as a charismatic character.
Now, the scenerio has changed...Xavier is almost around to Magneto's way of thinking. Negotiating the safety of the mutant race from a position of power...in this case, with X Corp, economic power...rather than the military might or international social structure of a state, such as Genosha. All Genosha did was to be a target...and that thing was written so badly, with no mutant or even human retaliation put up...no outcry in the UN...no declaration of outrage by any of the civilized countries whose emigrants were part of the citizenry that got annihilated.
A pissant country gets invaded today and the UN jumps up and lambasts the agressor. Sixteen million souls are annihilated and not even a squeak from the world community??? gimme a break!
And the REAL Magneto wouldn't have let it happen...there was plenty of time to mount defenses ...from the time of the original grant to Mags, to the attack of the sentinals, you cannot tell me that a canny Magneto wouldn't have "incoming" defenses mounted in place. He always had the ability to encapsule the island in a Magnetic shield to ward off or slow invasion. He has, in the past, invented machines to keep such a defense in place, even without his power input.
That whole thing was handled so badly I couldn't believe it when i read it! And it, among other things started me really looking at the quality of what was being written...orNOT being written in that book.

Suffice it to say I am estatic that Chris is at the X helm again.
'Nuff said!!!
Paty
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Nightcrawler ZERO » Wed Jan 28, 2004 5:31 pm

Well, Bamfette posted this in another thread- But here are the solicits for Chuck Austen and Salvador Larrocca's Planet X Aftermant arcs ( I'm adding in the covers)

NEW X-MEN #155 & 156
Written by CHUCK AUSTEN
Covers & pencils by SALVADOR LARROCA

"BRIGHT NEW MOURNING" pts. 1 & 2 (of 2)—In the aftermath of Magneto's rampage upon NYC and the Xavier Institute, Cyclops & Emma find themselves at a crossroads. Should the school be rebuilt? Should they continue on as X-Men? And how will it affect their blossoming relationship?
Image

UNCANNY X-MEN #442 & 443
Written by CHUCK AUSTEN
Covers & pencils by SALVADOR LARROCA

"OF DARKEST NIGHTS" pts. 1 & 2 (of 2)
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Panz » Wed Jan 28, 2004 9:19 pm

CC is also addressing the world post Planet-X. Being his usual teasing worst, he had this to say over on ComiX-Fan earlier today. I had asked him if he got the chance, would he pretty please consider rescuing Mags from the sorry state he has ended up in and what was the title to the final issue of X-Treme X-Men.

(Quote from Chris Claremont)

Dear Dred:

Sorry (to all and sundry) about my silence the past fortnight or so. I've actually been away, from home and computer and when I came home and saw I had nearly *600!* posts to catch up on -- well, between the demands of ordinary life and the number of times this site seems to hiccough due to visitor overload, it's taken quite a while to catch up! Talk about the burdens of success, Eric!

I'm afraid (also to all and sundry) my lips are pretty much officially sealed regarding what happens in May, aside form what I've said previously and what's been officially announced. Hey, can you really blame a guy (a company) for trying to achieve even the semblance of a surprise?

So, for the immediate future, absent alternative directives from On-High, the mantra is: don't ask, can't tell, sorry.

However, just to show I'm not a complete rotter, the title for X-treme #46 is, "One for my Lady, One more for the Road."

It's set in Valle Soleada and the Mansion, there's some serious yummies for the R&R crowd (bearing in mind, of course, we're still an All Ages title, which means I guess you'll have to use a fair amount of your imagination to fill in the blanks. Which I'm sure will be no trouble at all. ) The story brings the team up-to-date with the world post "Planet X" (whatever *that* means) and actually resolves some stuff. Heaven forfend, whatever was I thinking???

Storm Saves the Day for Everyone ...

except for those scenes where Kitty does it instead ...

except for those scenes where Sage does it better ...

except for the scene where Bishop announces in stentorian tones, "I'm a Cop."

except for the scenes in which the guys on the team discuss the meaning of life and whether they'll *ever* get any decent "face-time" ...

except for the scene in which Archangel -- well, maybe *some* things *should* be a surprise.

In short, something to tantalize and hopefully infuriate everyone (and *you* all know who you are).

And Betsy's still ...

Next month: something completely different.

Cordially,
Chris Claremont
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Postby Paty » Thu Jan 29, 2004 4:32 pm

:mags:
LOL...chris can be a vile creature at times, can't he? LOLOL
I cannot understand why these people cannot get it into their heads that Morrison is GONE! They can retcon his crap outta existance post haste! why are they continuing this stupidness?
You know they aren't gonna let Jean Grey stay dead...the nature of the Phoenix and all...but does her dying negate her marriage? Can you be married to a person who has died and come back to life? What are the legal ramifications there? Scott and Emma may have been a Morrison wet dream, but it doesn't have to give crabs to the rest of us! these people have got to come to their senses! The Phoenix won't stay dead...both the nature of the power and the fact that she will be the focus of the third movie are two good reasons for that. Mags needs to return, too...with his background and complexity still intact, to match the fact that he is very popular, not only with the diehard Claremont Magneto fans, but with a lot of movie goers who went to the stores after the second movie, hoping to find more Magfic on the stands and only getting the awful drek of New X Men. That's probably why Avi Arad went ballistic and yelled at the domics division to get back to the portrayals in the films...the eighties Clarmont type of character portrayal.
In any event, we know Phoenix will be back...and hopefully, Mags...the REAL Mags...cuz that abberration wasn't Him...you know that and so do I...Morrison't attempt to write the next hundred and fifty years notwithstanding. The freakin HUBRIS of that creep! He's leaving but he's gonna make it so no one can rescue the series from his attack!
I personally hope that monster meets something very nasty in the darkest of nights...What unmitigated GALL!!!
Of course, that's just MY opinion...

I shall trust Chris. He may have to work around the obvious Hardass influence still pervading and destroying Marvel...but he now has the oomph to do it if he will only step up and make his clout known. The Master of the X Men has returned...let's hope he will take names and kick some major British butt!

CHRIS... think Kobiashi Maru...You don't HAVE to play Morrison's little , stupid, destructive game. He's GONE!!!!
I swear, Morrison mskes me want to disown my own Scottish ancestors!!!


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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Panz » Thu Jan 29, 2004 5:03 pm

I just saw the cover art for Uncanny #442
VERY interesting, considering the solicit that went with it...perhaps Wolvie is "remembering" that he has super-normal senses of smell after all :smirk

I can't seem to post a link to the pic, but it is over on Comix-Fan under April Solicits

It has Magneto's helm...the rather android-esque skull of Xorn and Wolverine looking surly as normal...C'mon Chuck! Give us our Mags back!

Chris can fix just about anything, given enough breathing room...I won't give up hope.
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Postby PirateKurt » Sun Feb 01, 2004 9:29 am

Paty, One quick comment



You...ROCK! Hee hee
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby Paty » Tue Feb 03, 2004 3:58 pm

:mags:

OOOOOOOOOf COURSE I do!!! I also roll...but that's a whole orther story...LOL

LOL
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So what is it with all the bashing on the Jews in comics? Ot

Postby little Blue Lucy » Sat May 22, 2004 7:01 am

Well I haven't been reading the comics for precidely the reason that they're totally screwing things up lately, so I haven't really seen what they've done with Kitty, but yeah Anti Semitism really pisses me off. It horrifies me that someone can hate me simply because of my heritage, but I would hate it even if I wasn't Jewish, of course. It pissed me off when just about everyone started hating all Muslims and the French after 9/11 and the start of Operation Iraqui "Freedom". Why can't some people get it through their heads that a person's religion, nationality, etcetera, does not make them a bad person, it's their character.
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