GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

A monument and archive dedicated to Dave and Paty Cockrum. Nightscrawlers was their home on the internet and always will be. This forum preserves that legacy.
BH123
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Queens NY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by BH123 » Fri Jul 02, 2004 1:25 pm

Originally posted by LadyErin
I’m curious, though, as to what you suggest we would do with him? Imprisonment is out of the question. Too related to his triggers, it would only damage him further. To force his to receive medication and therapy…well, this never works. And would only add to his illness, making the next break even worse. Possibly permanent. And in fact this is true for many mentally ill people. The justice system, sadly, is not made for them. Magneto, in lucid times, punishes himself for his past actions. The best treatment here, because it must be treatment would be to keep him emotionally balanced. How? By fostering bonds with healthy people. His children and Charles, for starts. Because Magneto does trust Charles, for whatever reason. Gently coaxing him to see a therapist, next. Maintaining his lucid times and being there to protect him and the rest of the world from his manic periods. Taking that dammed helmet away from him. All things to help. But to imprison is bring the DOFP to him at least. That is his nightmare. The thing that haunts him in every unguarded moment. That the mutants are next. That this will happen again. And that needs to be addressed. And in order to stabilize him, resolved.
Oh, lord, the question of what to do with Magneto is a huuuuuge can of worms. I don't know if there is a good answer. But I'll try.

Okay, between the severe emotional traumas that his childhood experiences have left on him, and the detrimental psychological side-effects his powers have had on his mental processes, a very good case can be made that Magneto is not fully responsible for many of his crimes.

That said, the man is dangerous. Very, very dangerous. If a mentally disturbed person was running up and down a crowded street waving about a chainsaw, what would your first thought be? Would it be that this person needs help badly, and hopefully he will get it very soon? No, rather it would be that this person needs to be stopped *right now* before any innocent people are killed.

Magneto needs help. Lots and lots of help. But when he goes off the rails, he does so in a major way. And people tend to die. And he seems to go nuts on a semi-regular basis. So what is more important, helping him, or saving innocent lives? Ideally, both should be done. But this is not an ideal world, and in reality we often need to make a choice between two courses of action. We very seldom can have our cake and eat it too.

Don't get me wrong. Magneto is a very complex character whose background elicits a lot of sympathy. At the same time, he has continually demonstrated that he is a walking time bomb who can be set off at any moment. Even if Xavier and others were successful in keeping Magneto "emotionally balaced," as you say, they would still have to constantly be on the lookout for the next emotional trauma or personal loss that might come to affect Magneto and set him off again.

Well, it's a very complicated issue. I think it is a good relection of the continuous tension between the rights of the individual and the rights of society as a whole that we constantly find oursleves struggling with in the real world.

So, in the end, I don't have a clear-cut answer. I hope that doesn't seem like I am dodging the issue!

Northstars Love
Lookout
Lookout
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:10 am
Location: Pair A Dice Island

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Northstars Love » Fri Jul 02, 2004 6:45 pm

Quoted by BH123

That said, the man is dangerous. Very, very dangerous. If a mentally disturbed person was running up and down a crowded street waving about a chainsaw, what would your first thought be? Would it be that this person needs help badly, and hopefully he will get it very soon? No, rather it would be that this person needs to be stopped *right now* before any innocent people are killed.

Magneto needs help. Lots and lots of help. But when he goes off the rails, he does so in a major way. And people tend to die. And he seems to go nuts on a semi-regular basis. So what is more important, helping him, or saving innocent lives? Ideally, both should be done. But this is not an ideal world, and in reality we often need to make a choice between two courses of action. We very seldom can have our cake and eat it too.

While I agree Mags would need help on some level how would you suppose we get the Master or Magnetism some help? He most likely would not go willingly. Last thing I think someone will admit is that they are crazy or in need of help. Denial.

Perhaps if Xavier put in some psychic dampers to limit his power or cut it off totally might help. Of course this didn't help Phoenix either. She broke through those. Ah well.

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Mon Jul 05, 2004 10:30 am

No, I don't think he would. And I don't think it's denial, Ken. I think he just doesn't trust anyone.

And if Xavier messed with his powers...well...rememeber Moria and the DNA thing?
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

BH123
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Queens NY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by BH123 » Thu Jul 08, 2004 1:33 pm

Originally posted by LadyErin
No, I don't think he would. And I don't think it's denial, Ken. I think he just doesn't trust anyone.

And if Xavier messed with his powers...well...rememeber Moria and the DNA thing?
I am not so certain that what Moira MacTaggert did to Magneto, altering his genetic code, was necessarily wrong. It certainly falls into a morally gray area. But once all of the facts are considered, her actions do not appear so questionable.

First, regarding the issue of Moira making the changes to Magneto’s DNA without his consent, bear in mind that at the time he had been regressed to a little child. He was not old enough to comprehend what she wanted to do, much less give consent. Magneto had no known living relatives who could give their permission. Moira was Magneto’s de facto guardian at the time. As a result, it fell under her judgment as to what was best for baby Magneto. Perhaps she should have consulted with Xavier over the issue, but hindsight is 20:20.

Second, Moira’s actions were motivated by the best of intentions. She had discovered that Magneto had a flaw in his genetic makeup that caused him to go insane when he used his powers. And, indeed, in the past, this flaw had probably been a significant factor in turning him into a ranting, sadistic megalomaniac who had repeatedly sought to conquer the world, threatening countless innocent lives. Moira wanted to prevent this from happening all over again once Magneto regained his adulthood. She did what she did not only to save lives, but to give Magneto a chance to have a sane & balanced life.

Magneto’s major objection to Moira’s actions is that he was never given the opportunity to choose for himself, that she acted without his permission. But what does that mean? Basically he is saying that he would rather be a mentally disturbed & dangerous individual of his own free will, rather than being forced to be sane & rational. I am sorry, but the violation of his rights that Magneto feels took place was clearly outweighed by the clear and present danger he presented to all of humanity.

I have to cite my hypothetical scenario of a mentally disturbed individual running along a crowded street waving around a chainsaw. Now, in the past this individual may have chosen to refuse treatment and remain unbalanced. That was his right. But the second he became a danger to others, that choice was taken out of his hands, because his rights as an individual are far outweighed by the rights of numerous people he is threatening with harm.

The same applies to Magneto. As questionable as Moira’s actions may have been, they were necessitated by the very real danger Magneto posed to others.

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:26 pm

Originally posted by BH123
I am not so certain that what Moira MacTaggert did to Magneto, altering his genetic code, was necessarily wrong. It certainly falls into a morally gray area. But once all of the facts are considered, her actions do not appear so questionable.
Ummm, I never said what she did was wrong, I was trying say that given his past and how he responds to forced medical treatment, that mandateing medical care would be torture for him. Look at this from his POV. Remember his words?
Magneto:
Of course not. You worked for the betterment of the world and the race. I heard those same rationales as a boy, in the Auschwitz Death Camp. From Dr. Joseph Mengele himself!
Now, what he is saying, without saying, it is: "How dare you force medical treatment on me! Have you no idea what that is? Do you not know what that sounds like? How that makes me feel?!"
Mengele was a doctor who 'practised' on children intrusted to his care. He did expeirments on them, trying to change the DNA of the children. Now, look at it from his past. Does it make sense now?
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

scheherazade
Shoulder Parrot
Shoulder Parrot
Posts: 135
Joined: Thu Dec 11, 2003 5:15 am
Location: Upstate NY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by scheherazade » Thu Jul 08, 2004 8:27 pm

Originally posted by BH123
I have to cite my hypothetical scenario of a mentally disturbed individual running along a crowded street waving around a chainsaw. Now, in the past this individual may have chosen to refuse treatment and remain unbalanced. That was his right. But the second he became a danger to others, that choice was taken out of his hands, because his rights as an individual are far outweighed by the rights of numerous people he is threatening with harm.
Just to play devil's advocate, because I generally agree with what you're saying, but that analogy doesn't really work; Baby Mags wasn't posing a clear and present danger to anyone, even himself (noone would have expected him to get age-progressed, or whatever it's called) If Moira, as his guardian, was expecting to raise him from a child, she could have waited until he was older, before his power appeared. Perhaps that would have been deemed acceptable by Mags?

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Fri Jul 09, 2004 8:40 am

Originally posted by scheherazade
Just to play devil's advocate, because I generally agree with what you're saying, but that analogy doesn't really work; Baby Mags wasn't posing a clear and present danger to anyone, even himself (noone would have expected him to get age-progressed, or whatever it's called) If Moira, as his guardian, was expecting to raise him from a child, she could have waited until he was older, before his power appeared. Perhaps that would have been deemed acceptable by Mags?
And again-his past trama may have had a lot to do with it. Trama affects the brain, permently changes it. And if by allowing baby Mag's to grow up, reasonible sheltered from trama, who knows what might have happened?
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Paty » Fri Jul 09, 2004 1:55 pm

:mags
Well... what I got from the revelations of X Men 1 2 3 was that Moira was looking for a cure for her own son when she discovered the anomaly in Magneto's genetic pattern that caused his power to back up on him.
Now, from other books, we learn that although Magneto's body was regressed to infancy, his MIND was still working on an adult level, knowing all he had known before and being frustrated by the limitations of a child's limitations...watching himself being experimented on ...a sort of a reliving of the mengele thing...which he, of course, blanked out until Cortez found the anomaly and it's possible consequences.
In reality, Mags owes Moira a vote of thanks for opening the floodgates of his power and allowing him to use it without it backing up and driving him nutsy cuckoo.
I don't think it was WHAT she did so much as the reasons behind what she did. Remember, by her own admission, she was searching for a cure for someone else...and if it worked on Mags... which she had every hope that it would, maybe she could use it tohelp Legion. She didn't set out to help Mags... that was a fortuitous by product! She was setting out to help her son...and that was how Magneto percieved it. Mengele wasn't setting out to help the Jews...he was trying to purify the aryan strain. The connection of experimenting on one person to benefit another...without a seeming care as to how or if your experiments would work or backfire on the first individual was, I am sure, in Magnus's mind too close a parallel to Mengele's tactics and MO.
That he had a better control of his power and it's effects on himself was not a consideration in the emotionally charged scenerio that mirrored the experimentations performed by Mengele on the prisoners of the Nazis.
It's not that Mags wouldn't accept hellp...he knows he has a problem. It is...what help to accept? He has this TRUST problem which is gonna kick in. It is possible that at this point, he has to sit back and actually TRUST Xavier cuz that's his only hope of surviving.
He has headaches when he uses his power or gets powered over a certain threshold. What is manipulating the threshold? How does it work? He still has a lot to learn about his power and how it works...because he never received a structured tutalege, as did the X Men... he learned to use his power by the seat of his pants...through experimentation and success/failure. And all is still not known about the tremendous energies he weilds...even to himself!
And now we have the problem of his social image...or should I say his Public image!
Imposters have been creating mayhem, killing innocents in his name and likeness! Was this done to frame him? Was it done intentionally to defame and destroy him? If so, by whom or by what entity?
Fortunately, in reallife we donn't deal with extra terrestrial or interdimensional factors like The Skrulls, the Shi'ar, the Watchers, Astra and myriad other interfering entities that people the Marvel Universe. But Magneto has to deal with not only humanity...which wants his head... but these entities as well... who are, possiblly, the source of a lot of the problem to begin with!

The nicest thing about Chris writing the X books again is that complicated storylines like this can and will be dealt with...count on it! He's already started...and contrary to screaming children, us mature and erudite readers are excited by the possibilities and hanging on every word...pondering ramifications and possibilities. And, I believe, it will be a vindication of Magneto. He will be, once again the victim...not the abuser...and even though he is the most powerful man on the planet, he is helpless without Xavier's assistance and understanding.

Everyone has to find a therapist they trust. I do hope Xavier proves trustworthy in this instance...but we shall see, shan't we? with Chris, we shall have action and adventure and fun while he unfolds the deeper story swirling around Mags. The evolution of Magneto was Chris's masterpiece...literally. That other less talented writers have tried for over a decade to undo it is unbelievable. It is such a good launch pad for complex storylines...and probably this is the problem. they wouldn't know a good complex storyline if they tripped over it in braod daylinght! Much less how to write one!

Ahhhh well...I do agree that Mags is a force which must be handled very carefully...like nitroglycerine...but i also think there are ways of accomplishing this...and Claremont is gonna explore some of them.

Hooray! Hurrah! whoop! Whoop!
Fer Gawd's sake, Marvel...don't screw up again and sit on him and change what he is accomplishing!

As to wehter an infant CAN be consulted on the disposition of itself...well not normally...but Mags' mind was an adults...something Moira DIDN'T know! Or she might have actually tried to explain things to Mags. In fact, if she had any inkling at all of the fact that he sould actually understand what was going on around him, he might have handled him a whole lot different...but ...WHO knew? LOL...

So it looks to finally be gerring interesting again...after years of mediocracy and ineptitude! Yay!
LOL
Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

BH123
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Queens NY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by BH123 » Fri Jul 09, 2004 6:50 pm

My thanks to Lady Erin, Scheherazade, and Paty for their thoughtful, intelligent responses to my posts. Nice to see that we can disagree and still be civil about it. And all three of you raised very good points that gave me things to think about.

I may not agree 100% with Chris Claremont's characterization of Magneto, or with how others have interpreted it. But I definitely think that the in-depth discussion and debate we've been having here vividly demonstrates that Claremont certainly *did* transform Magneto into a complex, three-dimensional character whose history and actions raise a number of important & perplexing questions about the nature of humanity in general.

So I am looking forward to seeing what Charemont does with Magneto, and his relationship with Xavier, in upcoming issues of Excalibur.

And, BTW, Paty, I hope one of these days your eyesight improves again so that I can get a sketch of Magneto from you. I have been hoping for one for years :D

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:12 am

My thanks to you, as well. I have certainly become a better poster in regards to Magneto via this thread and you were facing people who shared different view points than yours who also seems to share many similar ones between ourselves.

But yes, Claremont did transform Magneto into something complex.

And I want to see more of Paty's Magneto too!
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Paty » Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:05 am

:mags
Aw, shucks, guys...you can see what I've doen over at the gallery...and yes... they were done before the eyes blew...but I am beginning to draw again...not as well or as easily as before, but slowly and surely. when I have new mags are I shall have Dave post it to the site...but be warned...I still have fine hundred waterlogged boxes to open and cry over. We had a gullywasher and the slabl of the barn got saturated overnight. Any boxes sitting on it got compromised... books, tapes, papers, youname it! So for the forseeable future I am gonna be salvaging as much of our belongings as I can. Fortunately, I had put a lot of the boxes up on shelves to make room for the electricians to come in and wire the barn.. preparatory to making it Dave's studio.
This will not happen now. We also have on the corner of our land an old restaurant which we were renting out to people who have since proved to be crooks and unreliable... so they are gone as of the last of June...and the building, which is tight and dry and has heat, AC and toilets! is gonna be transformed into Dave's studio and possibly the front part will be a gallery and gift shoppe with wonderful art for sale and other special things... like the beaded vests I used to do and am getting back to doing! as well...LOL.
So everything that Dave wanted in his studio in the barn now has to be ferried up to the cockrum Corner Studio.. yeah... for the nonce, I am calling it cockrum Corner. If we make a real gift shoppe out of it I may get fancier... but for right now Cockrum Corner will do! LOL

But, as you can imagine, it doesn't leave much time for drawing...and my computer being hacked by dipshit doesn't either... for those of you who care, the "virus thread" can explain all that.

Then again I am supposed to be doing some artwork designs for Laurell K Hamilton... I read for her and have edited for continuity for years...and also drawn her characters...some of which art she is now sharing with fans via posters and such. she has asked me to design some other stuff for her and I really have to get cracking on this...with unpacking and setting up studios thrown into the mixture...and the pool in the backyard becons....LOL...

decisions... decisions...not enough time... you may not see much of me for a while..then again, I shall try to peek in on at least this thread.. since it is my very own...
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAA
Yessss, masser...yesssss masser...I kiss the hem of your flaring magnificent cape!
slobber... drool... Ah! who would have thought that Magneto would stir the heart and fluidify the loins! pant...pant...

Stop it, witch! This is supposed to be a serious discussion!
I aAM serious! I am serioously in lust with the Claremont Magneto. Down with Stan! Down with Hardass and his ilk! Definately down with Byrne! and to bloody hell with Morrison!
Claremont rocks and is the only one who knows how to write! Not only write Magneto... but write a decent story! The simplistic approaches of the sixties and earlier do not hold the attention of the readers as Claremont's style does. Chris knows his audience.. he built it in the first place! We want complexity and complete stories...and that is exactly what he fives us!
Yeah.. I can hardly wait for Excalibur three!... and four! And he better continue the saga of Xavier and Magneto past the fourth issue or I will be a very unhappy camper...as will a whole lot of fans out there who are computer weary and silent...but who still care and who have hung on by their ragged fingernails for years! just waiting for some sanity to hbe restored toMarvel's policies.

Now if only they will give him time to work his magic! I have heard fans at the local shop exclaiming that Excalibur is a lot more interesting than they thought it would be... so we shall see... I think it is gonna take Chris a while to win back the slew of readers who departed during the desultory Hardass years and the following drek... but I really think he can do it with stories that are deep and multilevelled and coherent! Good writing will out in the end!
But thanks, for the vote of confidence... I shalldo my best to draw something soon... just for you guys!
Huggies
paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Sat Jul 10, 2004 5:47 am

Originally posted by Paty

Then again I am supposed to be doing some artwork designs for Laurell K Hamilton... I read for her and have edited for continuity for years...and also drawn her characters...some of which art she is now sharing with fans via posters and such. she has asked me to design some other stuff for her and I really have to get cracking on this...with unpacking and setting up studios thrown into the mixture...and the pool in the backyard becons....LOL...
THAT'S YOU?!?!?!?!?!:shocked I mean I knew she had someone doing that, but that's YOU?!

*smacks self* Calm down Girl!

Ahemm....Ok, I'm better. But I do love her work.
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Paty » Sat Jul 10, 2004 12:32 pm

:mags
Yeah...at least some of it is mine...LOL... I believe she has some of the original Jean Claude/Anita scenes from my original correspondence, on posters and postcards...or something like that... and I know she has a black and white of Barinthus I did for the "fey" series out on poster board.Heavy duty glossy print of him...I am thinking of coloring one so he can be in glorious color...LOL...of cuss, that costs more to print...but...it's not a bad drawing of the sea god. Y'see, if I send you a snail mail letter, there will be drawing on it...it's a rule... or used to be...but I still try to do original art on my letters... it makes getting them so much more fun for people...or so I am told...LOL...So before we started talking onthe phone, Laurell collected quite a mass of Paty art... all centered around the Anita Blake series...LOL...she not only told people of these, but she dedicated the sixth book to me and said it came about entirely because of the art I had sent and how it had changed her outlook on JC! Well, of course, the fans at signings clamored to see... so she finally asked me if I minded sharing and I told her I had done those for her... they were her characters and if she wanted to share, they wer hers to do with as she pleased...so she is sharing! That's all!
But she also has some other stuff in the store, too... a wonderful rubber duckie with FANGS called "Jean Claude's bath toy" It is WONDERFUL!!! They had a special mold made for it! and it vcan be had on a T shirt, too...They have other stuff too... but she just got in contact recently and asked me to do some other stuff...so I told her I was very busy with the house but would try to get my act together and do something...well... good intentions...LOL
I do have toget back to her though...I promised...and I always like to try to keep my promises...LOL
Even the "good" ones...
LOL
Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:22 pm

I know about the duckie :love And I want it. And now I much run off to the store and look at some of it.

And number six...is the "Killing Dance" Yes?
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

User avatar
msgt
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:50 pm
Location: Jenkins KY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by msgt » Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:57 pm

I don't know if you all have read this yet, but Grant Morrison recentely did a huge interview over at popimage.com.

The link:

http://www.popimage.com/content/grant2004.html

He did talk about Planet X and the Xorn/Magneto thing.

here is the quote:
The 'Planet X' story was partially intended as a comment on the exhausted, circular nature of the X-Men's ever-popular battle with Magneto and by extension, the equally cyclical nature of superhero franchise re-inventions. I ended the book exactly where I came on board, with Logan killing Magneto AGAIN, as he had done at the end of Scott Lobdell's run. Evil never dies in comic book universes. It just keeps coming back. Imagine Hitler back for the hundredth time to menace mankind. So, in the way that something like 'Marvel Boy' had that insistent 'teenage hard on' engine driving its rhythms, 'Planet X' is steeped in an exhausted, world-weary, 'middle-aged' ennui that spoke directly of both my own and Magneto's frustrations, disillusionment and disconnection, as well as the endless everything-is-not-enough frustrations of a certain segment of comics aging readership. In hindsight, I think I overdid the world weary a little but, you know, my loved ones were dying all around me while I was working on those issues, so I'm entitled to a little stumble into miseryland. Fantomex's line summed up my own cynicism at that moment, definitely and seems justified by subsequent plot developments. In my opinion, there really shouldn't have been an actual Xorn - he had to be fake, that was the cruel point of him - and it should have been the genuine Magneto, frayed to the bare, stupid nerve and schizoid-conflicted as he was in Planet X, not just some impostor. There's loads of good stuff in Planet X - it's just that miasma of bleakness and futility which hovers over the whole thing.

What people often forget, of course, is that Magneto, unlike the lovely Sir Ian McKellen, is a mad old terrorist twat. No matter how he justifies his stupid, brutal behaviour, or how anyone else tries to justify it, in the end he's just an old bastard with daft, old ideas based on violence and coercion. I really wanted to make that clear at this time.
I, personally, loved Grant Morrison's Magneto. I thought he was really complex and a great villian. We got to see all the deeper sides to Magneto via his Xorn side/personality.

We also got to see him fail which I thuoght was very important. In Grant's run we also see Xaviers big ideas fail as well. We began to see Xavier and Magneto as being the same.. they were these old men with outdated thoughts in their head.

Magneto had more power and influence over people when he was dead. He couldn't communicate well with the people because they were unsure it was really him.

He had more power on a T-shirt than he did when he came back and started to mass murder people.

I also could see how Magneto could get to the point of mass murder. I think it makes sense.

Violence is probably a good way to get a message across and if you had the power of Magneto then I think one might use it. Also Magneto is a villian. He is supposed to be the X-men's greatest villian and yet he can't get away with mass murder?! I think that is messed up. To me Claremont's Excalibur version is more of a "wussy" version of the X-men's greatest enemy.

I loved Magneto's relationship with Esme as well. I also loved the fact that he killed several of the students as well as Jean Grey (who is without a doubt my all time favorite character).

Planet X was so dark and full of drugs and ultraviolence. To me that was very cool because it wasn't the usual conservative stuff.

Claremont used to be an unconservative writer. Heck, he made Jean Grey mass murder people. .. she killed much more than even Magneto.

And he wasn't happy with Jean being brought back and her act neutralized with the retcon, but now he is doing the same thing to another writer. Which I know is just how the business works.

The thing is that now no writer can do something controversial or shocking, because it will just be undone.

THere might be no more Dark Phoenix Sagas where a hero mass murders and commits suicides or Planet X's where the villian decides to destory New York and send masses of people to death.

Why would a writer do something that wasn't safe in the X-men anymore if they know it won't last.

So retcons like these do hurt the quality of the X-men comics IMO.

Now we go back to safe writing (the kind of writing Claremont used to not write but now it seems to be all he writes).

So no I don't like Magneto being back, or how he was written in the first two Excalibur issues. That is not the Magneto I like.

Claremont did add depth to Mags, but he also changed him sooo much.

Magneto, with all his complexities, still does "horrible things" as a villian. He is not above murder or genocide.

I don't know how they will explain the imposter thing. I don't know how Sublime will be used or even if he will. I liked it better when Phoenix was killed by Magneto and not just some imposter.

It seems to be the same type of retcon that Jean grey went through in her first Phoenix years.

How later writers took everything way too literal. Like in Planet X they kept saying "Is this Magneto? You look nothing like Magneto" now that is taken literal when Jean was trying to trick Magneto in taking off the Xorn mask.

The writers who brought back Jean Grey in the mid 80's took a lot of what Claremont wrote about Jean and Phoenix literal and that allowed them to say they were two different beings.

Grant Morrison seemed to fix that because he made Jean and the Phoenix very close if not the same character.

I also feel he did great with Magneto. It was Magneto's biggest act.

That was because it was supposed to be his last.. or at least for now.

He could have come back... maybe he could have experienced secondary mutation and become the real Xorn.

But Marvel didn't want Magneto to be a mass murderer. Because apparentely Villians don't do stuff like that....

Mike

User avatar
Diablo
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:33 am
Location: Earth 803

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Diablo » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:18 pm

A villain who's a mass murderer... Why not ?

But he wouldn't be really interesting. You couldn't care about this kind of villain. He would be too cruel to be fascinating.
The greatest villains are the one who aren't entirely evil.

Like Doctor Doom. He's a dictator. You hate to admit it, but he's often right ! The world would perhap's be a better place if he ruled it.
But you would have lost your freedom...

And Morrison's Magneto wasn't Magnus. He couldn't be.
Instead of showing us a falling Magneto, I prefer when Marvel gives us the magnifiscent one.
More prestige !

That was the problem with Morrison. Beast, Magneto, Xavier and the X-Men looked ridiculous during his run.
I love the realistic plots and for me, Claremont often shows us X-Men who are too perfect.
Morrison's ideas weren't bad, but, in the end, he prefered to destroy instead of create.
Which is sterile.

Nuff said !
Rock is alive : Atlantys. :guitar
www.atlantys.biz


:wanda :bamf :psylocke :phoenix :kylun :rogue

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:43 pm

Originally posted by msgt
I don't know if you all have read this yet, but Grant Morrison recentely did a huge interview over at popimage.com.

The link:

http://www.popimage.com/content/grant2004.html

He did talk about Planet X and the Xorn/Magneto thing.

here is the quote:
I’m not going to reply to what he said because he isn’t here to defend himself.
I, personally, loved Grant Morrison's Magneto. I thought he was really complex and a great villian. We got to see all the deeper sides to Magneto via his Xorn side/personality.
A great villain? Well, someone to hate, yes. But villain? I don’t think a crazy drug addict counts as a villain. Villain to me implies a sense of focus and planning that a drug addict doesn’t have. But what do you mean by deeper side, pray tell? Magneto pre Morrison was a man who could morn the deaths of a beloved human wife and the senseless, vicious murder of his darling baby girl and still be a man who could use force when needed. So what do you mean by ‘deep’?
We also got to see him fail which I thuoght was very important. In Grant's run we also see Xaviers big ideas fail as well. We began to see Xavier and Magneto as being the same.. they were these old men with outdated thoughts in their head.
Other than Genosha, when has Magneto not failed? And Xavier’s ‘success’ isn’t a sure thing either. How many times has his ‘home’, his ‘safe place’ for mutants been attacked? How many of his students have died-and young ones at that? But yes, they are old men. Made older, in Magneto’s case, by the hell he was forced to live though. But out dated? Paying attention to politics and history? Xavier teaches that mutants must use non-violent means whenever possible. Magneto preaches that a show of strength is the only way to stay safe. Neither are out-dated. In fact, when combined these are the only things that have ever worked.
Magneto had more power and influence over people when he was dead. He couldn't communicate well with the people because they were unsure it was really him.
Not really. People who study his past behavior would know. A telepath should know-his shielding would be a distinctive shield, a person with enhanced sense should know via his smell. So there are ways to know.
He had more power on a T-shirt than he did when he came back and started to mass murder people.
Well, that tends to be how it works, yes. Mass murders aren’t well liked.
I also could see how Magneto could get to the point of mass murder. I think it makes sense.
Oh? Well, please explain, given Magneto’s background and MO how it makes sense.
Violence is probably a good way to get a message across and if you had the power of Magneto then I think one might use it. Also Magneto is a villian. He is supposed to be the X-men's greatest villian and yet he can't get away with mass murder?! I think that is messed up. To me Claremont's Excalibur version is more of a "wussy" version of the X-men's greatest enemy.
Villain? A person with similar goals but a different way of working towards them, is the manner I have always thought of him But being a villain means you can get away with murdering people? Nice logic. But then, I wonder if you think living is harder than dieing or that peacemaking is harder than fighting. Because that’s what Magneto under Claremont is trying to do.
I loved Magneto's relationship with Esme as well. I also loved the fact that he killed several of the students as well as Jean Grey (who is without a doubt my all time favorite character).

Planet X was so dark and full of drugs and ultraviolence. To me that was very cool because it wasn't the usual conservative stuff.
Why did you love him killing people? And drugs and ultraviolence are cool? You live in a safe middle to upper class neighborhood yes? Not too far from you teen years? And of WASP breeding? Well, let me give you the reality. Drugs aren’t cool. They are scary. You don’t know who is safe to be around. You don’t know when it is. You don’t know if you will have money, housing, food or doctor’s money. You live in fear of cops and DEA agents raiding your home. You learn not to sleep. You jerk awake at the smallest sound. You learn to hit hard and fast. It’s not cool. It’s abuse. And millions of children grow up in that kind of Hell or worse. Much worse. ‘Conservative’ stuff need not be. A good writer don’t need to play on the fears and tramas of others in a disrespectful manner in order to turn out something good.
Claremont used to be an unconservative writer. Heck, he made Jean Grey mass murder people. .. she killed much more than even Magneto.

And he wasn't happy with Jean being brought back and her act neutralized with the retcon, but now he is doing the same thing to another writer. Which I know is just how the business works.

The thing is that now no writer can do something controversial or shocking, because it will just be undone.
Well, Piotr is still dead, so is his sister, Kurt’s father is a demon or at least thinks he is one, Scott cheated on Jean….
THere might be no more Dark Phoenix Sagas where a hero mass murders and commits suicides or Planet X's where the villian decides to destory New York and send masses of people to death.
Well, if done with a level of maturity it can be. If it fits into the person’s MO.
Why would a writer do something that wasn't safe in the X-men anymore if they know it won't last.

So retcons like these do hurt the quality of the X-men comics IMO.

Now we go back to safe writing (the kind of writing Claremont used to not write but now it seems to be all he writes).
Again, I cite Piotr, Illyana, and Azazel.

So no I don't like Magneto being back, or how he was written in the first two Excalibur issues. That is not the Magneto I like.

Claremont did add depth to Mags, but he also changed him sooo much.

Magneto, with all his complexities, still does "horrible things" as a villian. He is not above murder or genocide.
And Morrison’s Magneto wasn’t the Magneto I knew, loved, or understood. And yes, he did change him, but not more than Morrison tried to. And yes, Magneto is capable of “horrible thingsâ€
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

Northstars Love
Lookout
Lookout
Posts: 970
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 7:10 am
Location: Pair A Dice Island

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Northstars Love » Sun Jul 11, 2004 8:57 pm

quoted by Diablo

And Morrison's Magneto wasn't Magnus. He couldn't be.
Instead of showing us a falling Magneto, I prefer when Marvel gives us the magnifiscent one.
More prestige !
Here! Here! Magneto isn't really a villian in my eyes. Just someone that is misunderstood. He believes in preserving the mutant race. Can't blame him. I would too if I was born with an ability that most other people didn't have or didn't understand. It's called self-preservation. ;)

User avatar
Sorte Springer
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu Aug 07, 2003 8:18 am

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Sorte Springer » Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:10 am

I have this strange idea that Morrisons Magneto and Chlaremonts Magneto are equally valid, and equally nessecary for the character to be three dimentional and intersting.
Yes, I know that the Magneto we saw in Planet X turned out not to be the real Magneto after all, but I think the Morrison version can be understood as a "what if Magnetos last functioning circuts was fried by a mayor tragey (the sentinel destroying Genosha), and he just went all the way in taking his anger out against X-men and the world in general".
Morrison shows the ultimate horror of Magneto as a villain, we get to see Magneto in a worst case scenario, and that is good, because it makes him remain interesting. In my opinioin he needs to be a scary guy, not a "potentially dangerous, but not really" guy. I see Planet X as something that Magneto could actually do under the given circumstances.

However I was also exhulted to read Excalibur and find out that he didn´t.
Because, as Diablo pointed out, if he really comitted the horrors of Planet X, we couldn´t care about him any more, and there would be no point in bringing him back sometimes in a future story. X-men without Magneto would be like Star Wars without Darth Wader.

Magneto is the X-mens arch enemy, so he must be the most terrible threath they can face, Morrison shows us that he really is.
But as the arch enemy he must also come back again and again and again as long as the comic book exists, and Claremont makes that possible.

All in all I am compleatly satified with the combined effords of Morrison and Claremont:D
A ve in om de flest æ de bedst eller båre de flest.
- Niels Hausgaard

BH123
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 66
Joined: Fri Jun 04, 2004 5:52 pm
Location: Queens NY
Contact:

A Magneto for all seasons

Post by BH123 » Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:06 pm

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**
Here! Here! Magneto isn't really a villian in my eyes. Just someone that is misunderstood. He believes in preserving the mutant race. Can't blame him. I would too if I was born with an ability that most other people didn't have or didn't understand. It's called self-preservation. ;)
I never saw Magneto as a hero. Perhaps he sees himself as a hero. Certainly there are various Marvel characters who do regard him as a hero. Or a messiah. Take your pick.

Rather, I see Magneto as a man who set out with the best of intentions. But, burdeoned as he was by the horrific traumas of his childhood, the death of his daughter, and the dissolution of his marriage, as well as cursed with a flaw in his powers that brought about insanity, he became the very thing he hated: a villain, a monster. Later on, Magneto gradually came to realize just how far he had fallen, and he sought to pull himself out of the darkness.

That's what makes Magneto interesting to me, that he wants to be a hero, but is constantly being pulled in the opposite direction. He is a very troubled individual, constantly struggling with his darker instincts & emotions. Magneto is capable of going great good, but also great evil.

As I said before, Magneto's internal stuggles say a lot about the human condition. Which is probably why we all find him such an intriguing figure.

User avatar
msgt
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 68
Joined: Thu Sep 19, 2002 1:50 pm
Location: Jenkins KY
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by msgt » Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:47 pm

Hey Lady Erin,

I don't know what all to say to all the personal stuff you brought up and the questions you asked or even the assumptions you made about me. All that stuff is weird to me when we are discussing comics.

But just for a bit of info, based on what I've read lurking around here.... me and you have something in common. If I'm correct you are a Sociology major, and so am I. :)

Magneto has always been my favorite x-villian. However I do not see him in the same light as some of you do.

I think Morrison's Magneto had a lot of depth. I point to the pages where he is standing in that building looking out on the city, or when he shown remorse over killing basilisk, or his talks with Xavier. That and like I said before we saw the gentler side to Magneto in his Xorn persona. However Magneto saw Xorn as weak.

I could see Magneto becoming what he hated most i.e. a Hitler type. He saw so much death and ultraviolence in his youth and then to have Genosha... his people destroyed. They were destroyed by machines made by man (sentinels) however they were used by a madwoman (Cassandra Nova). What was cool was that the woman who was responsible was in his class (little Ernst). And he never knew.

Sometimes people do become what they hate the most. An example would be a child from an alcoholic parent who hates his parent but grows up to be an alcoholic himself.

I admit I loved all the drug use in New X-men. I have taken quite a few classes on Substance Abuse, as I am thinking abuot going into that in grad school.

So yes I know drugs can be bad, but I also know that drugs are really neither good nor bad, and that "good" and "bad" are only value judgments.

It is always strange that people write off Magneto's actions because he was on drugs. But a lot of people still look down on drug using behavior, even though a whole lot of people use or experiment with drugs. Also drugs shouldn't excuse behavior completely, besides pharmocological effects and psychological effects, set and setting are important in the drug experience.

I thought it was awesome that so much use of drugs were in the X-men books. I never would have thought that would happen. That, to me, made the books more exciting cause it was unexpected.

I like flawed heros as much as flawed villians. In New X-men all the characters were flawed and they all went through heck.

Sure, Magneto was a villian, but of course he had his human side. I think all "monsters" do. In history all the "evil" men who did great horrors to peoples, were still people. It is that we have this dramatization of evil that Erving Goffman talks about or the degredation ceremony. It calls to how we define "evil". Magneto wasn't evil for mass murdering a ton of people, but that would just be how people saw it because that seems to one way we define "evil."

I also still think violence seems to be a pretty good way of getting a message across. It is also a good form of social control. Threat of violence speaks.

Also why no one knew who Xorn was I believe it was the nano sentinels he was using. Cassandra infected the whole team with nano sentinels, and they all got the flu even Wolverine. Magneto was shown to be able to control the nano sentinels in the case of giving Xavier the ability to walk.

Like said many times before Morrison is a writer that doesn't talk down to his audience. He never spells things out like Claremont does. He gives his reader a lot more credit than Claremont.

I think by reading Morrison's interview you would have to see how he imagined Planet X to be. His message about Magneto was a great one. Magneto did have a complexity.

People say where can you go with Magneto after Planet X, and the answer was that this might have been his last story.

Planet X was probably Magneto's greatest story just like the Dark Phoenix Saga was Jean's. However writers took it away from Jean just like they are now doing to Magneto.

That issue of New X-men where Magneto trashes New York will most likely always be one of my favorites . I remember how exciting it was.

But now its tainted, because Magneto is already back. Not only is he back but now we are to believe it was never really him. I just think thats lame.

The scene in Excalibur where Magneto can't believe anyone would think he was capable of the acts in Planet X make me cringe. That is not the Magneto I like. I don't know if I could like that Magneto.

Magneto, was supposed to be the X-men's most dangerous foe. In Planet X we found out why.

User avatar
Diablo
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 709
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 10:33 am
Location: Earth 803

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Diablo » Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:59 pm

Morrison's best X-story is E for Extinction for me.
And Planet X is his worst one, sorry ! ;)

Northstar Love, I agree with you : Magneto isn't really a villain. But he sometimes acts like a terrorist to reach his goals.
So one can SEE him like a villain.

And Magnus CAN be frightening WITHOUT killing millions of innocent lives ! Do you really need to be a murderer to be impressive ?? I think not !
Rock is alive : Atlantys. :guitar
www.atlantys.biz


:wanda :bamf :psylocke :phoenix :kylun :rogue

LadyErin
Butt Monkey
Butt Monkey
Posts: 293
Joined: Mon Jul 28, 2003 9:05 am
Location: Limbo
Contact:

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by LadyErin » Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:08 pm

Really? To me it’s not. I was trying to figure out your world view. I can place you in a basic world view by your social standing. And it’s much easy to address something if I know where you are coming from.

Psychology and Sociology. Double major. And going to go nuts if I ever take 18 credit hours again. I actually told my advisor to never allow me to do that again.

I can see that. ;) More so because I don’t see him as a villain.

Thank you for explaining. One thing to remember however, is Magneto past with the Sonderkommando. If he as a boy and young man show any emotion to those he was forced to kill, any mercy, any compassion, he wouldn’t have survived. Why? Because he either would have lost the ability to do his job and you have been killed by the guards or he would have attempted and/or succeeded in committing suicide. Of course Magneto thought Xorn was weak.

He almost has walked that path. And it wasn’t just death and violence he was shown. He was forced to help the SS in the genocide and murders. He was forced to help kill the rest of his family. Forced to search dead bodies, forced to cart them to the fires and the remains to burial pits. Insane or no, he would not have chosen the manner of death shown. He wouldn’t have wanted to re-live that. And don’t get me started on the Cassandra Nova/Ernst thing. Psychic shields aside, explain how she had two different electromagnetic signatures? He should have known.

Or an abused child abusing his/hers. I try not to use examples of things that have a genetic pre-disposition. And if you’ve read my posts before, then you know I have maintained that’s what he did. Or that’s what he started to become.

So have I. I also live with a parent who is an addict. I haven’t just studied it, I’ve lived it.

I never said ‘good’ or ‘bad’ I said scary. And it is.

I never did try to “write offâ€
http://lady_erin.livejournal.com
:magneto
What do you mean, you "don't believe in homosexuality?" It's not like the Easter Bunny, your belief isn't necessary. ~~Lea DeLaria
Want to IM me? U2U me for the screenname.

User avatar
Paty
Deck Swabber
Deck Swabber
Posts: 710
Joined: Sun Sep 08, 2002 4:03 am
Title: Magnetofiend
Location: Belton, SC 29627

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Paty » Tue Jul 13, 2004 2:20 pm

:mags
In the concentric, soap opera world of continuing comic stories, there is one golden rule! YOU NEVER ACTUALLY KILL OFF YOUR FAVORITE VILLAINS OR ADVERSARIES!!!

They are too valuable. Morrison's own words condemn him for his Planet X storyline. "... the cyclical nature of the X Men's EVER POPULAR battle with Magneto..." And this is what he tried, by his own admission, to destroy!
Morrison't Magneto was puerile. It didn't understand the poser or the use of it and with all the history and canon available on the character, there is no excuse for this kind of bad writing. Blaming his lack of control on drugs is the lamest thing I can think of. The universal OUT for not understanding the complexities of a character and just doing whatever comes into your own drugaddled mind. This is neither cool nor interesting.
Magneto is a scarey guy. He has and has always had from the very beginning the wherewithal to shut down and kill people with a thought! He didn't do it! He used bombast and a moderate show of power to scare people into submission. He never really hurt the X kids...even when he could easily have killed them. Hey, drop a ton of metal on anyone, even Cyke, and you'll kill them. Stop the red blood cells from delivering oxygen to their brains for about three seconds and you put them on the ground... keep it up for a short time longer and they are dead. fire all the electromagnetic circuits in the brain at once and you get a grand mal siezure...can't fight the bad buy when you are rolling around on the ground jerking and frothing at the mouth, now can you?
There were soooo many ways for Magneto to be a real killer that it boggles the mind. He never was.
Morrison's biggest blunder , among many, was the crematoria scene...which not onllydidn't make sense visually, but definately made no sense whatsoever if you are dealing with the REAL Magneto...as Lady Erin said.
I have serious questions about anyone who thinks drug use and mass murder and schitzo behavior are cool....sorry...that is just sophomoric thinking. In about five years, when they know more and know better, ythe people who espouse this "coolness" now will look back at their posts and cringe...mark my words.
Y They are eagerly slurping up theory and ideas and new pathways of thinking...and this is OK...but many ack life experience, I think, and it's tempering influence. Hard theory is one thing but real life is another.
But comics are a fantasy realm. There are things you can and cannot do. Both because the properties are owned by others and cannot be changed drastically or damaged as economic entities, and abecause they are viable literary characters in ongoing continuity. Planet X may have been Morrison's final say on the subject...he didn't say much coherently anyway... but the readership...as he calls us, the "aging readership"...does want to read more stories revolving around the endless and interesting juxtaposition of these characters. It is the kind of ongoing fan involvement that publishers dream of and which keeps their coffers full and the ol publishing machine running! It all comes down to economics... and Morrison didn't care about Marvel's economics... he only cared about Morrison.

Personally I am sick to death of Morrison. He is gone...and not likely to come back. He left gaping plot holes that other writers are attempting to fix or use to go on from there. He left mindless destruction in the core characters that must needs be addressed if the characters are to retain any viability as likable and marketable properties. I personally don't care what emotional trauma he was going through in his life at the time. He was supposed to be a professional and have a care for the valuable properties he was entrusted with! If these had been his characters to wallow in his personal misery with, fine... let him wallow. But they were not his. He was given care of longstanding and popular characters and he used them for the venting of his own personal misery and world wearyness...without regard to the actual depiction and long standing characterization of each character. It may have been exciting to readers who didn't know the characters and their development for thirty or forty years, but it was obscene to those who knew better.

So now, Morrison has burned his bridges pretty well at Marvel...and before Planet X came out, he had signed with DC...who, after seeing the mayhem he crreated with Planet X... the fiscal damage and destruction of longstanding characters and storylines... they are probably wondering what they can do with this bozo. Cuz, you can be sure that Paul Levitz, who is a very sharp and world wise, and industry wise person, is not about to let this wild cannon destroy any of DC's valuable properties! They signed a hot potato before they had looked into the oven and saw that it wasn't a potato at all...but a time bomb!
And some days, it's hard to get rid of a bomb.
So now he is doing "Seaguy"...to rather desultory reviews. What a perfect time to come in and stir the Magneto controversy pot and get his name prominently on the boards again. This interview was calculated to stir public controversy which had been dying down as the readership of the X books moved on with good stories and interesing characterizations. As a Sociology major, Mike, you should be able to discern that kind of ploy, shouldn't you? It's not only the characters in the books that play mind games, kiddo... Look at the office politics...and the motivations of the creators...the storylines are as good in real life as they ever are inthe books! And they are revealing as to what is being done by whom in the books. Comics is a mulitlayered world with the books being only the tip of the iceburg. And that, for the multilevel thinker is part of the fun.

Drug abuse and mass murder ...cool? Morrisonn's followers are the scarey ones in my book if they think this kinda stuff is cool.

Eveil is what is bad for US and OURS. Bin Ladin thinks we are evil because our lifestyle is becoming popular in his country and threatens the status quo...especially those upstare women wanting equality! Down with America... to himself he is a hero...defending his way of life, his religion and his tribe. We, of course, see it differently. Is Magneto evil for wanting mutants to survive in a world that wouldn't even say "boo" when sentinels wiped out sixteen million of them... and then wouldn't even help the few survivors? That little bit of gratuitous violence only proved Magneto was right in the first place. Now, Cassandra Nova, Morrison's only really good creation, in my opinion, is evil.. she has no ostensible motive but to destroy Xavier and all he loves...mindless hate.... unmitigated bile...yeah, that's evi ! Magneto was never thus, even in his most mindless state.... which even his creator, Stan has said was simplistic. Stan even stated he wished he had done more with the character and liked what Claremont did with him..because mindless characters are just not interesting. Well, sometimes, but if they are going to be that singleminded, they have to be really evil...but then Morrison tried to tell us s CN wasn't REALLY evil in the future plotline. Gag me with a spoon! This boyo didn't know what he wanted to say and he is now parrotting some of the throries of his fans who tied themselves in to pretzels trying to justify and explain his plothole marred meanderings.

He's gone... his crap will be retconned as he tried to retcon everyone else. He forgot the "Do unto others as you would have them dounto you" rule. He set himself up for instant retcon if anybody with a mind was watching...and plenty of smart people were! Tit for tat. The great comic soap opera moves on...like the wheel of life...and sooner or later...hopefully sooner... we will have characters worth spending our bucks on again.

Paty
:mags
Magneto Rules!
Xavier drools!
Write support the Claremont Magneto! Cast a vote for complexity in characterization! And write to protest THE USELESS KILLING OF NIGHTCRAWLER !!!
Write to :
Isaac Perlmutter , Alan Fine, Alex Alonso and Nick Lowe at
Marvel Entertainment Inc.
135 W 50th Street
New York, NY 10020
:magneto

User avatar
Singe
Bilge Rat
Bilge Rat
Posts: 91
Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 3:42 am

GRAND MAGNETO THREAD

Post by Singe » Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:47 am

Bleh.

I think it's entirely one thing to be challenging and innovative, but it's almost as though Morrison by his own admission was just trying to piss people off. And by God, he succeeded! What's been built up over the years is this eloquent, very intelligent (though not always all there) guy who had all sorts of logical justifications! He did some bad shit, but he was never EEEEEVIL. He and Xavier are just two sides to the same coin. Hence why the whole Planet X ordeal was the most irritatingly out of character and nonsensical arc I've seen Mags in, at least. Can't hold people's attention, just randomly attacking New York (hoping to accomplish... I dunno) and... druggie? Well, apparently.

And if Morrison seems so fatigued with this "cyclical" process, why contribute to it?

Sure he's gone through a lot of mood swings over the year (and what someone said about him having BPD and PTSD makes perfect sense to me), but I don't see him swinging THAT far. I'm all about Claremont bringing him back. And I'm actually shelling out for Excalibur! That says a LOT.

Chris might be doing a throwback to the old happy-go-lucky attitude of the original Excalibur, because the atmosphere of the book thusfar seems kind of nonchalant for a land that was the killing feild of millions of people! Realism aside, though, I'm liking this run. I don't know if I stick with it. But I approve, go Chris!
Image

Post Reply