Dave's perspectives on X-Men

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Postby Paty » Mon Oct 23, 2006 11:08 am

:magneto
LOL...I read some of the early Civil war books and could see where that might be headed. The diverse opinions on the issue could really have major repercussions in the Marvel Universe. It is almost an "pro choice/pro life" vehemence to the arguements... each side demanding to be right and trying to force the other side to go along with them. Sue Storm has the quiet, motheresque strength, even though she mostly goes along with Reed... but it seems she is finally speaking out and diverging from his viewpoint. and rightly so. I think Reed is on the wrong side here. Reed profits from Big Brotherism... Sue knows it is a trap...an enslavement.
I haven't gotten all the Civil War books... so don't know what all is going on...and don't much care for the most part... unless Mags gets his powers back and gets heavily involved... as he WOULD...cuz this would press his "register the Jews" buttons in the extreme. He's been there and knows the pitfalls. Of course, this involvement... ala the moviverse... could be used to make him a one dimensional villain again, which is what true Magophiles fear will happen. I guess we shall see...shan't we?

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Postby Angelique » Mon Oct 23, 2006 6:28 pm

[spoiler] Sue left Reed and the kids! :bawl [/spoiler]

I'd also like to see Mags weigh in. Heck, I'd be happy to see him doing something other than living out his "crap Sapien life" doing nothing, even if he doesn't get his powers back, but this seems quite centered on Cyke vs. Bishop, which, despite the fact that I'm a fan of neither character, has nonetheless maintained my interest.
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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Postby Paty » Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:29 am

:magneto
LOL... yeah... I fuigured that from the books I have read so far. doesn't surprise me... the boyos are all about tearing everything down that was supposed to be written in stone. They think their little psychological blasting caps equate with good stories. and characterization...

The premise, of course, mirrors to some degree, the storyline of the third movie...mutant registration... compounded by a "cure" that starts out as voluntary but could easily become mandatory... and the schism it causes in the mutant /superhero community. What they will do with it is anybody's guess... the movie handled it one way... a way I was not comfortable with and which I did not think was logical or conclusive. That whole story was left unresolved. Four or five X men could not stop a whole army of attacking mutants on Alcaraz Island... sorry... NOT! Even if they WANTED to... and the majority of the X men didn't believe in the "cure" to begin with.. so what they were doing there ...saving a single kid that could enslave or destroy thousands or tens of thousands of mutants ... is questionable at best. OK... so you wanna think that every life is precious... but what about the thousands of lives this kid...or extracts from this kid... are destroying... and it's is not a permanent cure, either, apparently. Just disabling for a while.
so... knowing what we do now, should Alolph Hitler have been killed in infancy? Is one child's life worth the suffering, enslavement or destruction of thousands and/or tens of thousands... not tomention millions... of innocent lives? Personally, I don't think so. But that is just me, I guess. I would gladly have strangled Hitler in his childhood if I could have done it... to save the millions that died in the Holocaust and the sencond world war!!! At that point, he would have been an innocent baby... but the potential for any single child to cause horrible destruction is always there. The child isn't at fault, but the potential for destruction at it's hands , if known, should be blocked or neutralized. This is what Magneto and the other mutants were attempting to do... acquire custody of the kid... or at the very least, nullify him... before he could be used to destroy thousands of others. Obviously, the former would be preferable... but the latter would be a consideration, for sure.

Let's put it this way...what would you do with a kid who had "walking ebola"... not affected by the disease, but spreading it everywhere he went? A Typhoid Mary scenerio.??? Essentially, that was the kid in X 3... and he was in the hands of the government who did not hesitate to use him... wrongly!

The legislation of Civil War is a clear and illegal infraction of one's right to privacy guaranteed by the Constitution. If you register mutants, where does it stop? Blacks? Muslems? non Christians? whose bigotry rules in a "free" America? Hmmmm?

The whole movie quandry was dealt with in too hurried a manner for such a complex situation.

In Civil war, you have registration and "outting" of superheroes creating such a schism... and no one person to blame... except the stupid lawmakers, of course... but that is merely country wide bigotry. The schism is between those who are comfortable with their identities known and those who are not. It shouldn't have to be a choice. those who wish to be public.. like the FF... shoud be. those who for whatever reason, find it dangerous to their loved ones or themselves to be public shouldn't be forced to be outted. Just as those who wish to be cured should not force those who do not, to be cured... or support a government who will use their acquescience to force others to accept the "cure".
Not unlike "choice" vs "non choice" it is a question of others telling you what to do with your life... with the cells inside your own skin...which is the only thing you actually own in this life... and maybe not even that, if others have their way. Yes, slavery DOES exist today and you don't have to look in the middle east, the far east or anywhere else in the world .. to find it. ...and that is not right. Each person must be free to make their own choices...live their own lives...or no one is free!

these are interesting concepts to be being explored in a superhero comic book... and the outcome is not at all clear here. Once outted, can anyone go back? No... as the X Men are finding out to their probable sorrow these days.
Unless a storyline undoes all of House of M... Avengers Disassemble and the consequences of Civil war, the Marvel Universe as we have known it is gonna cease to exist. Maybe that's what they want... a clean slate? then what? they don't have the wherewithal to create a whole new universe... just warp the old one beyond recognition.

It just seems that it is one mistake trying to cover up onother mistake. didn't they ever learn that two wrongs don't make a right? Much less three... four... etc...

I think the storylines are important. I just have no confidence that the "creators" can handle the magnitude of their implications.
but... we shall see, right? Y'know... I am beginning to hate the phrase "we shall see..." cuz for the past five years it has only led us deeper and deeper into a smarmy, dark morass...with no light or way out in sight.

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Postby Angelique » Tue Oct 24, 2006 4:01 am

If it is all about choices, then there's the answer for the "if we could go back in time and kill baby Hitler" question. He hadn't yet made the decisions that would make him a monster, and were it possible to alter even the tiniest factor in his life, there's no telling just how different the results would be. If he were accepted into art school, if his father had just been a better person, et cetera, there's no telling how different the results might be. On the other hand, without changing the political, economic, and social circumstances leading up to the war, it might have gone on anyway, just perhaps with a different leader.

The military historians in my family liked to speculate that if the assassination attempt on Hitler had succeeded, the Nazis might have won the war, because his top lieutenants were at least as ruthless and evil, and in some areas, they were smarter. If we killed Hitler off in infancy, would we prevent the war? Or would we enable someone at least as bad to rise up and take his place, and how many more people would we have to kill to ensure that doesn't happen? Tough questions, to which there is no definite answer. Unfortunately, as much as we'd like to Quantum Leap into the past and change it for the better, there's no Al to ensure we don't screw it up worse.
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Postby Paty » Wed Oct 25, 2006 2:32 pm

:magneto
How right you are there! the old time travelling person who kills a prehistoric butterflly and goes back to a home radically different from the one he left...LOL...
Well...that's a little extreme, of course... and the Hitler ref is bang on... since more and more info coming out indicates that it was Hitler's own stupidity and myopia and closet fears that led to the downfall of the war machine the Germans had created. So the world got lucky that time...although certain corners of the world got decimated.

War is mama nature's way of dealing with human overpopulation. We have no natural predators and we refuse to limit our breeding... so we are like fleas sucking our planet/dog dry. But we have no other planet/dog to leap to when this one is dead, do we? so war among humans is not necessarily a bad thing...it takes out a lot of potential breeders if nothing else. Literally millions in WWII at least.. and fifty years later we are SERIOUSLY overpopulated again... even under the best of weather conditions and optimum harvests... which we are never guaranteed...LOL

This is one of the reasons I don't like time travel stories. The kids writing them NEVER consider all the ramifications...only the most obvious ones or the ones they want to change. When I read such a story, I sit there and say"OK... you changed this and this... but what about THAT, THAT, AND THAT??? Which of course, never get dealt with logically... so I grind my jaws and dislike time travel stories even worse! It never would be a simple answer, would it? It would be a domino effect of ramifications that one could never anticipate cuz no one knows all the factors that make up our history... or ANYONE'S history, for that matter.

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Postby Angelique » Wed Oct 25, 2006 8:43 pm

Oh, I like some time travel stories, if they're written by someone well-versed enough in physics and history to explore the ramifications. I think Back to the Future, however, was the only decent time travel movie that examined the possibility of how affecting the past (even by doing something good) could erase a person from existence.

I respectfully disagree that war is earth's method of population control, especially considering it's brought on artificially by human greed and oppression.
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Postby SamKarns » Thu Oct 26, 2006 4:36 pm

Dave, how did you come up with the idea of Phoenix and her dark half?

Did you approve of Jean's death at the time?

How did you see her future?
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Postby Dark Bamf » Thu Oct 26, 2006 6:35 pm

Before dealing with Phoenix, a comment on time travel stories: someone once pointed out that time travel stories couldn't change anything, because the change you make has already occurred in the present/future/whatever.

I co-created Green Phoenix. John Byrne co-created Red Phoenix. No, I did not agree with Jean's death, I was LIVID. For my reaction, somewhere on line (possibly in the Nightscrawlers gallery) there's a piece titled 'Up From the Ashes: PHOENIX REBORN!' I had no particular thought about her future, except that no matter how many times you kill off a Phoenix--she comes back. That's what they do...come back.

:bamf

[Edited on 27-10-2006 by Dark Bamf]
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Postby Angelique » Thu Oct 26, 2006 11:03 pm

Originally posted by Dark Bamf
Before dealing with Phoenix, a comment on time travel stories: someone once pointed out that time travel stories couldn't change anything, because the change you make has already occurred in the present/future/whatever.


And I think Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure kind of touched on that. (You know I've got a marriage made in geek heaven when watching even the lamest of comedies can provoke a discussion on speculative physics! The husband is also a big Harlan Ellison fan, by the way.)

But as for altering the past, there is also the purely hypothetical matter of the creation of divergent realities and so forth. Of course, I think the alternate reality thing is used far too often and too badly these days.



[Edited on 26/10/0606 by Angelique]
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Postby Paty » Fri Oct 27, 2006 9:53 pm

:magneto

Oh, bang on on that one, sugar! but sometimes alternate reality is the only way they can coherently "fix" a stupid storyline that shouldn't have gotten into print in the first place... this is what comes of having no real editors...

On the Harlan Ellison front... Dave should tell you of "the wild ride" with Harlan... one evening many years ago...

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAA
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Postby Dark Bamf » Sat Oct 28, 2006 12:33 am

Ok, I will. This happened many years ago. I had the assignment to draw the Marvel adaptation of Star Trek: the Motion Picture--the first Trek movie. Marv Wolfman had the writing chores. Marvel sent Marv and I and Len Wein out to Hollywood to Paramount Studios to (hopefully) see the rough cut of the film. Unfortunately, director Robert Wise wouldn't allow ANYONE to see the rough cut. We did get a tour of Paramount's sets and saw some really neat stuff at Industrial Light & Magic, and at Doug Trumbull's workshops. I fell in love with the movie version of Enterprise (a 14-foot model) when we saw her parked in Spacedock, hanging over our heads in the dark.

But another thing we did was visit Harlan Ellison in his home. I don't exactly recall where it was located--I want to say Topanga Canyon--but it was somewhere atop a wild, winding road full of hills and hairpin curves. I had never met Harlan, but Marv and Len were both friends with him.

We drove up to his place and I was totally blown away by it--especially the library. It was a round room two stories tall with floor-to-ceiling books and a balcony around the second floor level. But the best part was the door. It was about four feet high. Harlan (who's short) was getting a bit of his own b ack at tall people, who are more inconvenienced at going through the door than he is. :LOL

Anyway--we all decided we wanted to go out for something to eat. Harlan said he knew a great Mexican place to eat, so we went out and climbed into his rattletrap Pinto. He then aimed the car downhill, yelled EEEEEEEEEHAH! ARRIBA! ARRIBA! GOOCH! GOOCH! GOOCH! and TROMPED the gas pedal. We went roaring downhill, whipping around hairpin turns, narrowly missing other cars, and at one point nearly winding up in somebody's living room when we aimed directly at their house where it sat at the bend of the hairpin. Marv, Len and I were hanging on for dear life and pissing our pants with fear. After a wild 20-minute ride we screeched to a stop in the parking lot of the restaurant and Harlan turned and sneered at the three of us sitting there in our pee, shaking and blubbering, and said--

"You PUSSIES!"

That was my introduction to Harlan Ellison. :LOL

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Postby Paty » Sat Oct 28, 2006 3:28 am

:magneto

I have met Harlan... He is a very funny person. He doesn't mean to be... but he is, anyway...he is also a closet sweetie... but don't tell him I said that...

LOL
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Postby Angelique » Sat Oct 28, 2006 4:26 am

:*D I figured!!!

And that sounds about like Topanga Canyon. Or how I remember Sunland. At any rate, if I ever have the fortune of meeting him and he needs a lift through Teton Pass, I'm driving.
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Postby Paty » Sun Oct 29, 2006 1:38 pm

:magneto

A WISE WOMAN!!!

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAAA

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Postby Panz » Fri Nov 03, 2006 8:02 pm

I lived in Topanga Canyon in the early 80's and it is indeed easy to end up in someones living room or back yard LOLOL!!! I lived below a person that could pull off the most magnificent Tarzan call I've ever heard. We used to terrify our young silly selves by driving past the Manson Family mansion...Those were the days!!!!! There was a roadhouse a few canyons over on the highway across from the ocean where all the REAL musicians would show up and jam. It was heaven! Sorry if I've wandered a bit far from the topic. I would believe that Harlan lived in those mad hills. It would suit him well.
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Postby Dark Bamf » Sat Nov 04, 2006 1:38 am

I don't know, but I suspect that Harlan might've hung out at that roadhouse.

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Postby Panz » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:47 am

Originally posted by Paty
:magneto
LOL...not quite a bionic eye yet...just a lens..LOL

Marvel doesn't WANT to return to sanity. the youngsters there cannot write well enough to do that. This is why every time chris Claremont starts to rebuild his fan base with GOOD storytelling, they yank his characters and books away from him. they cannot compete with good storytelling.
And they really don't want some old broad telling them what to do or how to fix things. Are you kiddin? first thing I would do is fire half the guys there. then I would lay down the law about screwing with the core characters. then I would have a meeting of the WRITERS AND ARTISTS... not the editors. I would talk to them and see what they really wanted to do in the way of storytelling... and I would give Claremont any characters he wanted and tell him to do his thing and rebuild marvel's X universe to where it was when Hardass came in and started teraring it down. And Magneto would be his to write until he croaked off... Chris, not Mags. there would be a few choice things established in relation to Mags that would set the characterization in such hard stone it could never be monkeyed with. and a lot of shit would be cleared away and retoconned outta continuity. If a writer couldn't tell a coherent story, he would be booted forthwith... cuz this is a STORYTELLING medium. I would bring in female and minority artists and writers. I would give Chirs Priest the books he has been begging for, aimed at young african americans and other ethnic minorities.
I would seek to expand the market for the products beyond the shrinking comic store market and go with at least some titles to stores like Walmart and other small outlets... like we had in the heyday of comics. Y'know... I have had people ask me if comic books still exist, cuz they havenn't seen one on the stands for decades! they didn't know about comic retail stores... and their kids didn't , either. When I was a kid, we found our first comic book on the stand in the neighborhood drug store... or the mom and pop store around the corner. ... or the card shop down the street that had a magazine rack. and if one store didn't have the comics you wanted, you hit the others. And comics only cost a dime at the time... so a kid could afford them with the quarter he or she had in their pocket.

So, OK... we arennn't going back to the day of the quarter comic book... but quite frankly, I would rather see a reductionin paper quality to ...say... Baxter grade and a corresponding reduction in price... cuz I don't see many stories worth paying three dollars for twenty pages. and I would go back to real comic book coloring, too... with the monochrome panel here and there for special effect ...wherre warranted... but real color throughout the book. I hate the coloring I am seeing in the books these days. A recent Batman had the first three or four pages in shades of red and pink... for no good reason. It wasn't the inside of a sub in 'battle stations" mode. That's where you get red lighting effects!!! Not the top of a building at night!!! I totally hate all pink and beige pages. I dislike intensly monochromes of blue, violet or pink!!! this is a four color medium! With HAND seperation, we had sixty four viable colors to play with inside the books.. and that number was regulated by the ink absorption quality of the newsprint. With better paper and laser scanning or computer coloring,you have thousands of colors... so why in the world is soloring limited any more to shades of pastel blue, pink and brown??? someone needs lessons in comic book coloring as well as how to goose a computer program to "color" a book.

but I digress... I think quesasda is beginning to actually get a handle on being an editor in chief... but he has gotta take in the whole picture here and quit catering to every asswipe idea his poker buddies throw out. He's gotta start protecting the characters and their core personalities...and until he can do this, he isn't doing his job... not well, anyway. I think he could... but he's gotta stop listening to his cronies and the internet.
DC comics, I am told, has told it's editors and writers not to listen to nor get involved in the internet discussions regarding their books. Now, you cannot keep a person from expressing their views on their own boards or websites... but as a general rule with the major forums, I think this is a good idea. Hopefully, the management and upper editorial will not be affected by the internet, nor allow the internet bulies who take over boards to set the policy the management must ste for it's own company.
Marvel listens toomuch to these children babbling and pushing the limits on the net. Until they can break away from the search for the quick buck by appeasing these people and go back to just telling good stories, they will continue to decline.
A case in point is the removal of Claremont from Uncanny. when Chris took over the book, it was tenth inthe ratings. It took him a while to get his feet under him, but within a moderate while, he had moved it up from tenth place, where it had languished for quite a while... toninth place. About the time Marvel yanked it away fromhim, the figures came in for that month and Uncanny was in SEVENTH place... an upward jump of two places!!! And they took it AWAY from hin??!!! Pure insanity!!! You do NOT screw with a wwinning team of writer and artist who are building a GROWING fanbase and bringing the book they work on UP inthe ratings!!! You just do NOT!. It is stupid.. it is crazy! It is favoritism and jealousy... that's what it is, cuz ther is no other reason for it... especially when the writer himself posted on a major board that he had no warning and he and his artist were busy planning storylines for the next two years!!!! Yeah... Claremont does plan that far ahead... rahter unique in today's scenerio of spur of the moment 'BRILLIANT" ideas, which usually aren't... and have to be "fixed" later. Witness the last several big summer pushes..sigh.

Anyway, the last thing these young boy yoyos wants is some feisty old broad telling their godlike majesties how to "fix" their messes. Even if I am right...

Paty
:magneto





I know I'm months out of line on this but I've been a bit busy with hospitals and therapy and had to take some time off from grognarding...I am SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO pissed that they do this to Chris all the godblurkin'' time. Excuse my language, but this is a long standing hatefest that I have with the almighty PTB at Marvel. Give the man an alternate earth with all of the characters he wants...it won't screw up the precious Marvel Standard Earth , git the bloody hell out of his way and let him write, ok? How hard is this? honestly AAAAARRRRGGGGGGGGG!!!!

I'm trying to catch up with where they've shuffled him THIS time and I'm in a really murderous funk about it.
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more nattering

Postby Panz » Sat Nov 04, 2006 4:27 am

The road house was/is at Trancus canyon, I had to poke my brain with a stick for a while to remember. I always wanted to write an X tale in the canyons or much better yet have Chris and Dave create one!!! The canyons are a wild, weird sort of magical place and I would not have been surprised to run across dinosaurs there.

I suppose my alternate Claremont Earth idea is going to get me beat up, but I still want it. I haven't been able to keep up with the comics and am trying to at least get some idea what is going on. I am finding it hard to get excited about a series only to have it canned a couple of arcs in to the darned thing. I haven't emailed Chris cus I didn't want to bug him, but I'll dig up the moxy in a bit to give him an e-jingle.

I have to agree with you Paty, on X3, it was too rushed and shoehorned into an ending that should have happened in the next film....I dunno, it was just...rushed and sort of dis coordinant or something. There were fun parts but the whole didn't come out with the pizzaz that it could have.

Edit: I just read on comiXfan that Kurt is hooking up with yet another alien woman * sigh * and that Storm is getting married...again...I don't even want to know to who *yuck*
I WAS going to ask Dave if Kurt and Ororo DID get hitched, would they bring kids into the world or would they opt to wait until (hopefully) things were better for mutant kind ? I dunno, I was in kind of a girly mushy mood until I read what was going on in Uncanny these days.

I really miss Chris, at least most of his plots eventually come out making sense


[Edited on 4-11-2006 by Panz]
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Postby Paty » Sat Nov 04, 2006 2:04 pm

:magneto

Yes, indeedy, the movie almost felt like some of these damn "big summer events" that spend ninety percent of the time building to something and then...BLOOP...just like Christmas Day, it is over in two seconds... sometimes not making any sense at all!!! and there is no way four or six X Men could have stopped the mutant army, even with fortifications of humankind aiding them... no way! Mags had a goodly sized little group there and Alcatraz is built with rebar...IRON BARS throughout. He could have totally destroyed the facility with a thought. See? This is the kind of thing they simply don't think out... EVER!!! Wolvie, he could have flang into outer space if he wanted to... nothing there was right... especially the Beast sneaking up on him and de powering him. And even in that eventuality, what happened to the other hundreds, if not thousands of mutant fighters? What? they just turn around and go home? Gimme a break!!!
while the story was a good one, the ending was illogical, rushed and totally not right. It probably needed another half hour ... at least... to actualy finish up the story with any degree of proper pacing or logic... not that lobic played any part in the ending of that movie.
I loved Magneto's scene with the bridge... THAT'S the Mags we know and love... powerful, flamboyant, but with a nod to the poor humans in the car... that he could have killed, but didn't. Mags doesn't hate all humans...just the ones that want to discriminate against mutants... and enslave or imprison...or kill... them.
I am behind on my X reading right now...between triips and visitors and housecleaning and such, I am running around like a chicken with it's head cut off... so I don't know what Brubaker is doing with Uncanny.. but a whole series diverging from when Hardass kicked Chris out would be wonderful! then we would see whose universe readers would decide is the REAL one... Although I believe Ultimate was supposed to be the exercise in "alternate reality" for Marvel...PTUI!
I dunno... people read and enjoy Ultimate X Men for what it is worth, I guess. I read it... don't much like the folk in it at all. It's a nasty world over there...and maybe that is what modern readers want. It certainly isn't what I want.... but I am an old fud.. I want good stories with the characters I know and love... not some warped version of them.
sigh...

I do wonder about multimillion dollar homes on those canyons out west. They are prone to wildfires , covered with highly flammable mesquite and such and in the direct path of hte Santa Anas, aren't they? sooner or later all of them are gonna either fall into the sea or burn, I would think. Not a place I would want to buy real estate... but,hey, Dave's story of the wild ride with Harlan always crcks me up..
LOL
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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Postby Panz » Sun Nov 05, 2006 5:37 am

Yeah, I left the canyons after some brilliant guy set his own horse ranch on fire and blamed his Mexican hired help to get the insurance money or something like that. We all had to be evacuated. I don't like fires. Not fun.

Ok, here is a good question for you, left over from All Hallows Eve, if you will. Mutants often have such incredible powers, I was wondering if they truly die due to thier powers? If one believes in spirits transcending death, then do mutants have more of a likelihood of becoming a form of powerful undead? spirits that can move about and still use their powers... or do they die like the normal folk? IYHO...just curious if you had ever given it any thought, besides the phoenix power that is...I'm getting dotty in my old age :P

...It was a stupid thing that I said a couple of years ago to Chris on Comixfan about pitching a dead X men title, since so many of them were buying the farm at that time. He joked back about it and it has made a weird round on the internet as a possible title...too funny ...my 15 minutes of fame as it were... But it seems that they have an uncanny, if you'll pardon the pun, resistance to staying dead .
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Postby Dark Bamf » Sun Nov 05, 2006 6:31 am

Well, I would've said comic book people in general are impervious to staying dead--with the exception of Bucky Barnes and Marvel's Captain Marvel--but Paty tells me that both of those two characters have returned also. Oh well, go figure. :LOL

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Dave's perspectives on X-Men

Postby SamKarns » Fri Nov 10, 2006 7:46 pm

I love X3's portrayal of Professor X. Very true to the character this time while the previous films he was simply Capt. Picard in a wheel chair. Xavier's methods were always controversial to me and as I understand he has his own code of ethics, it's this that makes him the most interesting X-Men character. Good job Brett Ratner.
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