FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

 
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Crawler » Thu Dec 30, 2004 4:26 am

NOTICE: If you are unfamiliar with Fables, please read no further in this thread. If you have not read at least through the March of the Wooden Soldiers storyline (now available in TPB) please refrain from posting and voting.

This is for several reasons. First, this is probably my favorite book and certainly my favorite mystery at the moment, and if you don't know your stuff, I don't want you in here. This is meant to be an intelligent and nformed discussion.

Second, I don't want to spoil anything for people that haven't read the book yet. It's an extremely fun mystery and Fables is a great read, full of twists and surprises and I don't want to rob anyone of that.

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That said, vote and discuss! :D

I've put my top three suspects on the Poll. If you vote for one of the "Other" options, then PLEASE tell us who!
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Bamfette » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:09 pm

well, Willingham has said in interviews that the current cast of characters is far from complete, he's mentioned using Aladdin and other Arabian Knights characters, for instance. so it could just be someone not seen yet. like Bunny says tho, that leaves a pretty long list, especially considering it doesn't seem to matter if the character died in the original story, like Bluebeard or Bigby. could be, like, the Red Queen (them referring to the Advesary as a 'he' may be a red herring, since none of them actually know who it is), or the Maghrabi from Aladdin, or he's also used Baba Yaga, so Slavic fairy tales are still out there. you've got Ivan and Tsar Demian (in which case a giant wolf featured prominently, so could tie nicely to Bigby) and who knows what else, though. or how about Oberon? they are FAIRY-tales. or.... oh, I don't even know. and if he's using Slavic and Arabian fairy tales, well, i find it hard to believe he'd leave out other cultrures.... so the possibilities are endless...

right now though, Gepetto looks likely. the reverence with which the wooden soldiers treated Pinocchio and Gepetto, and all.... and if Pinocchio was the Advesary, and he's been there this whole time, why wait till now to launch an attack? so, yeah, Gepetto. I just really don't think he's creating the wooden soldiers as a slave...

I have two giant hardback books packed with over a hundred fairytales, plus some imported Slavic fairytale books (i love the illustrations... especially inthe Slavic ones, done by a man named Ivan Bilibin, i love his art) so i will look through them to see if anyone seems like they'd fit the bill...

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Bamfette » Thu Dec 30, 2004 10:15 pm

I don't have the Wooden Soldiers trade on me to get any specific examples, i gave it away for Christmas.... but i got the impression that the Fables in Fabletown certainly all thought Gepetto was a slave, but there was an undercurrent there that made me think that's just what THEY thought, and that Gepetto had a much larger roll.

I did just think of something though, that eliminates a female from being the Advesary, though. in 'A Wolf in the Fold' a short story at the back of the first Fables trade, the Advesary is referred to as the Emperor, and i think the wooden soldiers refer to the advesary as 'emperor' as well. so that makes him male.

and one thing i noticed almost instantly about the soldiers was that they looked JUST like Pinocchio. the Wooden soldiers said that they were created 'in the emperors image' since Phinocchio was made a long time ago, and quite likely in Geppetto's image....

with the disdain the soldiers hold for all things fleshy, the motivation could be as simple as 'wood supremacy' he could be playing into a Hitler model, and sees non-wooden creatons as inferior.

however, looking again, Geppetto would not really fit the description given in the first Fables trade.... but then, if no one knows who the big bad guy IS, the stories told could be totall bullshit. also you have to keep in mind that this same story shows Baba Yaga fleeing with all the other Fables. but i think that was just an art thing.

http://img10.imageshack.us/img10/8272/Fables04-08.jpg

and then it doesn't really offer any more in the way of descriptors for the Adversary... just him ocnquering all the lands. so, really i guess it could be almost anyone.... he LOOKS like a satyr or something, but this could just be becuase King Cole (who is telling the story) just does not know any better.

but if it is NOT Gepetto, my money is on a Russian character. becuase of Baba Yaga. I'm going to read through those books and see who looks likely.

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Bamfette » Fri Dec 31, 2004 1:44 am

why do you think him? what would his motivation be?

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Crawler » Fri Dec 31, 2004 4:45 am

I LOVE THAT THEORY, BUNNY!

I'd not even thought of that...

Also, the "Emporer" bit could be misleading. They mayt not be referring to the Adversary at all. Say that Bunny is correct, but Gepetto is NOT a slave...he's willingly helping in return for compensation. He could be the Emporer of some land. And it seems that he really wanted Pinnochio back, so if that was what the Adversary promised...

And it was implied in the original story that [spoiler]Neverland[/spoiler] was essentially an extension of him, was it not? If your imagination becomes reality and the only thing you can't create is friends...well, that's quite a power, isn't it?

ADDED IN LATER: I also think it fits with the concept well that the Adversary, the biggest, meanest villain of them all would be a "good guy." [spoiler]A good CHILD, even.[/spoiler]

And along those lines...think about who, of the current cast, is a [spoiler]boy[/spoiler]...aren't they both missing now, gone to see the Adversary? Something to think about, at least.
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Fri Dec 31, 2004 10:10 pm

Originally posted by Bamf Bunny
[spoiler]He used to lead the Lost Boys, and effectively ruled Never-Never land, until Wendy spirited all of them away to live with the Darlings. Willingham coiuld put a dark spin on the final chapter, when Peter returns for Wendy's daughter, years later ...

Plus, you have to admit, the picture you posted sure looks like Pan.[/spoiler]
I heard that theory months ago, along with a rumor about how Willingham was originally going to do that but changed his mind. He supposedly said this in an interview, but I've never seen it.
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Diablo » Sat Jan 01, 2005 7:11 pm

Waow. Interesting thread.
I've never thought about the identity of the Adversary before.
Your theory is just great.
I wonder when we'll know for sure...
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Crawler » Sun Jan 09, 2005 4:17 pm

Having finally read the first trade again, I have no doubt that Bunny was correct about the original intended identity of the Adversary.
but not Alice in Wonderland (1865); you get the winged monkeys from the Wizard of Oz but no other Oz characters;
Alice and the White Rabbit make a very small cameo in the Rememberance Day issue. They apparently live away from Fabletown.

There are also several Tinmen in cameos and it is mentioned that what I believe to be Oz was the first land outside of his original lands to fall to the Adversary. (It's referred to as the Emerald Kingdom...so I could be wrong about that. Enlighten me?)

And I suspect that the Scarecrow is featured in the backup short story about Snow bringing Bigby to the city.
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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by BamfChyck » Thu Mar 03, 2005 7:36 pm

I actually hadn't hear about Fables until I saw this thread...*ducks*
...so I got the TPBs and I read them and I love them. So thank you, 'Crawler, for bringing them to my attention. :)

As I was reading, I wondered about the "Adversary" and I was struck by what Pinocchio said when he talked about the Blue Fairy. It made me think of her as a possible contender for the bad guy. I know the gender seems to be male, but gender can (for some people) be a rather slippery thing in this world, so I imagine a Blue Fairy trying to hid her identity might find it easy to switch.
Just an idea. She might be dead, too, killed off before they all escaped.

I like Bamf Bunny's suggestion, too. It's a little creepy, which fits the tone of the stories very well. Is the Adversary for sure not him, now, or is that just speculation?

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Saint Kurt » Sun May 29, 2005 2:54 pm

I was looking for this thread... Now I've found it.

While Nightscrawlers was down I found this random Bible quote where it referred to Satan as "The Adversary". That wouldn't have been enough to make me think that Satan was the Adversary in Fables except that the context of it was perfect and I was like "Oh my effing God I've got to tell this to C!!!!!1!11!"

But I couldn't find C at the time and so I lost track of the quote as well as this thread.

So, I am here to say, that out there, somewhere is this perfect bible quote in the perfect context that makes me think that the Adversary in Fables could possibly be "Old Scratch" himself. Sorry I can't be more convincing than that. Wouldn't that be kind of cool though?

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FABLES: Who is the Adversary?

Post by Bamfette » Sun May 29, 2005 7:49 pm

hehehe...

and you know... from what i hear Willingham's beliefs, it actually wouldn't surprise me.... by that, i mean, i could see him putting the bible in with the 'fables'. but i will look into that in more depth. I mean i know of some examples, he had one character one time that was a thoroughly evil televangelist. but one evil televangelist does not make them ALL evil, you know? so it would be interesting to have some more concrete information on his beliefs.... but i think he keeps that private.

I do seem to recall what was strongly implied ot be Aslan being killed in Fables. I'd have to check the trades to see where.

but at the same time... oooohhh.. that would make people mad... C and i get enough flack for having Jesus in HS with all the 'false gods' and that's no where near on the same level. on the one hand, since all the Fables are real, so is Satan and so is God. so, they're still real in the context of the story, so in that way don't actually run counter a Christian's beliefs. but on the other hand, they are then placed on the same level as Snow White. that's where me and C are getting flack. we're putting Jesus on the same level as Zeus, and it makes some people upset. and Zeus is still a god, not like, The Three Bears.

I am sure most Christians would take it well. but it's the ones who would get offended that will be vocal.

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