Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Bamfette » Sat Aug 20, 2005 8:02 am

so.... I just realized we have no Harry Potter thread, and me and C both have just recently read through the entire series to date. I had never read any of them before July. then i got the first one to see what the fuss was about..... finished book 6 a couple weeks ago, and am going through them again (more slowly this time) to look for clues i may have missed. :P I was, needless to say, quite entertained by them....

anyway! speculation time. massive spoilers ahead. turn back if you have not read book six! I'll work on getting that spoiler hack fixed in the next day or so.

so anyway. as i was saying to C earlier....
[spoiler]
The thing that got me was the Horcruxes. I hadn't figured out how Voldemort was keeping himself alive, and that made perfect sense. but what surprised me about that was that the locket was a fake. So i am thinking Sirius's brother Regulus was a traitor to Voldemort, and he took it, and that locket they found in the cabinet of the Black junk in Order of the Phoenix was the Horcrux. now the only problem is where is it now? is it with Kreacher's stash? did whatshisface steal it like he stole most of the silver (remember Harry caught him in Hogsmeade. and he's in Azkaban now, right?) is it already destroyed, or was Regulus never able to accomplish that? I'm thinking it's still intact.

obviously both the locked door and the door to the land of death at the Department of Mysteries will play a roll in the final encounter. I don't know what might be behind the locked door, but I am thinking Harry will be having a reunion with his parents, Sirius and Dumbledore, and i think the 2 way mirror that he broke will lead him to that.

I don't think he will REALLY stay away form Hogwarts, if some the Horcruxes really are artifacts from Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and/or Gryffindor, it would be the obvious place to begin the search, with the possible exception of the artifact of Godric Gryffindor, which may actually be at Godric's Hollow, where his parents died. I am thinking Harry may be a heir to Gryffindor. Maybe he's a Horcrux. but that would mean he has to die for Voldemort to be defeated. but then Voldemort wouldn't want to kill him, unless it was an accidental Horcruxing... [/spoiler]


and i was talking to Chuck more about the relationships, and this link entered the discussion:

http://tinyurl.com/bjje3

crazy, no? I can understand kinda rooting for a certian pairing, but... there are limits... some of these people are getting kinda insane about it, and i personally think 'delusional' about fits them when they get so obsessive that when Rowling doesn't pair them up according to their personal desires, they start insulting her and saying things like this revelation has made it impossible to ever hold a meaningful relationship.......

but i always though Harry and Ginny would be cute togehter, and the hints that Ron and Hermoine would be a couple were blatantly obvious. :P

so. thoughts?

and the next movie looks awesome:

http://mugglenet.com/movies/movie4/index.shtml

though i am a tad disappointed with Mad-Eye Moody... he doesn't look like what i expected.... but i guess there are limits to what you can accomplish with makeup.

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Crocodile Hunter » Sat Aug 20, 2005 12:35 pm

I read the books till the 4th one, after that i have had no time or interest.
I didnt like the movies much at all, unlike Lotr the movies dont resemble to my picture of the book so much.
As Mad-Eye Moody, i thought he had a glass eye of somesort. not a "strap-on eye" .

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by CurlyyHairGirl » Sat Aug 20, 2005 5:12 pm

SPIOLERS
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>>[spoiler]
I was really confused by the sixth book. It was really odd that Dumbledore got killed off in the sixth rather than the seventh, but thoughout the book you kindof get the feeling that he would, olike the hints of him feeling to tired and his blackened hand.

And Harry leave Hogwarts! I found that the weirdest part. I understand he want's to off Boldemort once and for all, but it just seems so odd.

I for one, want Sirius back...besides, what if he really isn't dead, what if he's just stuck behind the the door thingummy. *cries* He was the coolest character![/spoiler]

any way, these books have a very large fanbase, mant go here
The Sugar Quill

many have the same sentiments on character relationships as you do, Bamfette.:D
one name: Bruce Campbell

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sat Aug 20, 2005 6:43 pm

Originally posted by Bamfette
The thing that got me was the Horcruxes. I hadn't figured out how Voldemort was keeping himself alive, and that made perfect sense. but what surprised me about that was that the locket was a fake. So i am thinking Sirius's brother Regulus was a traitor to Voldemort, and he took it, and that locket they found in the cabinet of the Black junk in Order of the Phoenix was the Horcrux. now the only problem is where is it now? is it with Kreacher's stash? did whatshisface steal it like he stole most of the silver (remember Harry caught him in Hogsmeade. and he's in Azkaban now, right?) is it already destroyed, or was Regulus never able to accomplish that? I'm thinking it's still intact.
..
I don't think he will REALLY stay away form Hogwarts, if some the Horcruxes really are artifacts from Ravenclaw, Hufflepuff, and/or Gryffindor, it would be the obvious place to begin the search, with the possible exception of the artifact of Godric Gryffindor, which may actually be at Godric's Hollow, where his parents died. I am thinking Harry may be a heir to Gryffindor.
First off, thanks for making this thread, I'm a Potter Geek, so I'm gonna enjoy this..

I think Kreacher took the locket, they mentioned the glimmering objects in his den, plus that would probably be something Kreacher would like to take..

I could see Harry being the Heri of Gryffindor, he did summon Godric Gryffindor's prized possession, his sword.. I just wanna know what the other Horcruxes may be and how Harry plans to find them all from school..
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Bamfette » Sat Aug 20, 2005 9:58 pm

I was really confused by the sixth book. It was really odd that Dumbledore got killed off in the sixth rather than the seventh, but thoughout the book you kindof get the feeling that he would, olike the hints of him feeling to tired and his blackened hand.
If you've ever heard of Joseph Campbell, he's put together a formula that hero stories tend to follow, from Jason and the Argonauts to Star Wars. there are certain elements that are nearly always present in stories like this, and Harry Potter follows this formula VERY closely. each book follows it within itself, but the overall story as a whole follows it too. Hero Myths usually go something like this, not necessarily in the order listed, but usually fairly close (yes this will address Dumbledore dying when he did):

- start in the Ordinary World (with the Dursleys)
- call to adventure (letters)
- hero is reluctant (Harry does not believe he is a wizard at first)
- encouraged by a mentor (there can be many mentors - Hagrid is the first by leading him away from the Ordinary World, but Harry has a few, Sirius, Lupin, but Dumbledore is the biggest and most important one overall, especially in book 6)
- Hero enters the Magical World (in Harry Potter, this is very literal....)
- tests and helpers (present by the dozen)
- threshhold guardians - obstacles that he must pass to enter either the magical world, the innermost cave, or get the object/knowledge/person he's questing after. (wall to Diagon Alley, Platform 9 3/4, Fluffy, Mirror of Erised, the Basilisk, time itself, doors in the Department of Mysteries, etc...)
- Hero reaches 'the innermost cave' where the object/knowledge/person he's questing for is located. (these are present in all the books. in book 6 it is quite literally a cave...)
- Endures a supreme ordeal (the climactic moment. facing Quirrel, Tom Riddle, the Dementors, Voldemort come back to life, Department of Mysteries, and the Horcrux Cave.)
- Near death experience - the hero nearly dies in pursuit of his goal.
- and the one that's important here - the Hero must continue ALONE. his mentor or helper must either leave or be killed usually before the supreme ordeal, but it can be after, before a secondary ordeal (facing Snape). this is akin to Obi Wan dying in Star Wars. (this aspect has been accomplished on a book by book basis by merely having the mentor/helper unavailable in the supreme ordeal by the fact that they can't get to the location, Ron and Hermoine get seperated begore Harry reaches the Cave in the first two books, for instance. but in the last three instances it was through death. book 4, Cedric died before Harry faced Voldemort. in book 5 Sirius was more the mentor than Dumbledore (though there was also Dumbledore, but...), and then Dumbledore was the main mentor in book 6, AND Dumbledore was the main mentor figure for the series as a whole, so he had to get out of the picture eventually.)
- Hero gets his prize, the item, knowledge or person he quested after.
-The Road Back - after actually getting his prize there is some falling action as he returns back. is pursued by the remnants of the bad guys forces, has to deal with the aftermath, etc.
- Resurrection - Hero emerges changed by his ordeal.
- Return to the Ordinary World.
And Harry leave Hogwarts! I found that the weirdest part. I understand he want's to off Boldemort once and for all, but it just seems so odd.
I do too, to a degree. but mostly fromt the logic perspective of finding the school founders Horcruxes. from a story perspective, it makes sense.... Harry Potter is a story of growing up, and he has to leave Hogwarts behind to do that.

I think Kreacher took the locket, they mentioned the glimmering objects in his den, plus that would probably be something Kreacher would like to take..
it does... but Rowling threw in either Kreacher or Mundungus Fletcher as a red herring in that regard.... I'm undecided as to which one is the real posessor of the locket. (or had it last, in any case) both are very real possibilities. they BOTH stole Black heirlooms. it would be easiest to get it back form Kreacher, which leads me to believe it may be Fletcher, who quite possibly sold it to someone.
I could see Harry being the Heri of Gryffindor, he did summon Godric Gryffindor's prized possession, his sword.. I just wanna know what the other Horcruxes may be and how Harry plans to find them all from school..
well, Dumbledore gave a good list of possible Horcruxes... i have my doubts about the snake. i mean, why would you put a horcrux into a living creature, who will eventually die? other than that though, they seem possible, but we have no idea what this artifact of Gryffindor and/or Ravenclaw may be... we atleast know WHAT the Slytherin and Hufflepuff Horcruxes are... even if we don't know WHERE they are. but the Hufflepuff Horcrux.... since he got it at the same time as the Slytherin locket, it stands to reason he hid it in a similar manner, with complex traps and such.

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sun Aug 21, 2005 5:40 am

I thought when I read it that the Gryffindor item would be the Sword of Gryffindor, which Dumbledore got rather than Voldemort, therefore eliminating it as a horcrux..
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Post by Bamfette » Wed Aug 24, 2005 6:41 am

well, Dumbledore didn't seem to think it was a Horcrux, though... and he demonstrated an ability to detect the things. he didn't figure out the locket was a fake, but he never, not once, touched it. so of the two Gryffindor artifacts at Hogwarts (sword and Sorting Hat) I think Dumbledore would have had time to examine them and figure out if they were a Horcrux... I mean, i could be wrong, but i can't see it being that easy.

so, we know there are likely 7. 2 have been destroyed, the diary and the ring. that leaves 5. 2 of which we know what they are. Slytherin's locket, and Hufflepuff's cup. the locket we even have a good idea of where to start looking.

that leaves 3 unknowns. Dumbledore gave his best guesses, to complete the Hogwarts founders collection, something from Ravenclaw, and something from Gryffindor, and the 7th is anyone's guess, though Dumbledore said the snake.

that means all of the Hogwarts founders artifacts are still out there, which is why it makes little sense for Harry to not go back at all. if there are any records of Hogwarts aritfacts to be found, it will be at the school. he knows what 2 are, and nothing in the library will likely help him with those, but Gryffindor and Ravenclaw will probably need some research to at least figure out WHAT they are....

though i still think clues about Gryffindor's may be at Godric's Hollow. the name... that place must have something to do with Gryffindor. maybe not Harry's parent's house specifically, but maybe Godic's Hollow was named for Godric Gryffindor. either because he lived there at one time, or performed some kind of service for the area.... something.

then that just leaves the very last one.... the snake does not make much sense to me. I realize she's probably a magical snake, and so lives longer than most snakes, (though i think they are pretty long lived to begin with) it's still a living creature and inherently delicate because of that. it makes a VERY risky Horcrux... but i do not know what else it could be.

I think Harry or Harry's scar could be a Horcrux as well, but an acidental one, and so not counted among the 7 Voldemort originally planned, and if he did not know about it, it would explain why he still wants Harry dead.

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Blue_Demon94 » Wed Aug 24, 2005 3:29 pm

Do you think since he came back that maybe Voldemort made more Horcruxes on top of the original ones? If anything I think it may be Wormtail's silver hand.. and a little off-topic, did it annoy anyone else that Voldemort called Peter 'Wormtail' to begin with.. it's not his nickname in the first place.. that just pissed me off:evil
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by HoodedMan » Wed Aug 24, 2005 11:42 pm

Originally posted by Bamfette
I think Harry or Harry's scar could be a Horcrux as well, but an acidental one, and so not counted among the 7 Voldemort originally planned, and if he did not know about it, it would explain why he still wants Harry dead.
Northstar! I actually rather like that idea (the scar) though it has been explained as being something else. Bother. It would explain a lot, though, even though the current explanation does as well. It just seems like a neat idea.
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Bamfette » Thu Aug 25, 2005 2:57 am

actually, most of the idea is from C... he's the one who mentioned it to me, and i liked it... he takes it a step further and surmises that the scar gives Harry ALL his powers, that without it he is a squib... and to defeat Voldemort, he would not have to necessarly die, but would have to lose all his magic. I dunno about that, though. would be kind of a depressing ending. I'm hoping he becoms an Auror like he wants, (and even if he does not finish his 7th year of school, to get into auror training 'defeated most evil and feared wizard of all time' on his application should make up for that :P) but...

anyway. it could be dual purpose, i suppose. we already know it appeared when Voldemort tried to kill him, and when that happened, he was inadvertently granted some of Voldemort's abilities, like parseltongue, and being able to see his thoughts. but it is always channeled through the scar, aside from parseltongue, the scar is always hurting when these things happen.... so... I dunno. just seems a possibility.

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by HoodedMan » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:15 am

A very interesting idea, and I love it. Maybe it's just my standard love of a twist, but there you go. I'd love him to be an Auror too. But yes, to lose his magic would be a bit depressing and out of line with the "current" explanation of Harry's scar. But more in line with that theory, perhaps a piece of Voldemort's soul would explain such things like Parseltongue.

Perhaps the current explanation doesn't contradict the other after all. Sure, the scar appeared as a mark of Voldemort's hate, but Voldemort could also have accidentally given a piece of his own soul in the power he gives to a killing spell. Sure, you'd think it wouldn't be that easy, but neither is the killing spell, apparently. So does anyone else think the two fit together?
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Bamfette » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53 am

I think they could work together easily. hate is a very powerful emotion, and while it could be the mark of his hatred, that very hatred could have fueled a transfusiuon of a part of him into Harry as he lost control of the situation.

anyway. international trailer is up at the UK website. looks cool ;) http://harrypotter.warnerbros.co.uk/gobletoffire/

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Post by HoodedMan » Thu Aug 25, 2005 3:53 pm

Oh my God, I can't wait for that movie. I love Harry Potter trailers.

Chorus: "Something wicked this way comes!"
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Garble » Fri Aug 26, 2005 1:51 am

Rowling says she won't be writing the next book for at least 3 years.

So speculate away!!

Some theories I've heard...

[spoiler]Its possible that Harry's feelings for Ginny were actually induced by the love potion he sniffed at the beginning of book 6. Before that potions class there's no mention of him having any feelings like that. Then it says he smells the potion and is reminded of the Burrow (The Weasley's house) and looks at Ginny. What's more the potion is supposed to create obsession, not love. And whenever Harry's feelings for Ginny are described it's a jealous warbly feeling in his gut. This kind of makes sense to me because Harry's infatuation with Ginny seemed really sudden and out of place to me.[/spoiler]

And this is something I was really unsure of throughout the series and I was finally convinced about after reading Half Blood Prince until I started thinking about it more...

[spoiler]Does Snape killing Dumbledore finally prove he's been evil all along? Dumbledore has demonstrated near-omniscience in the series. And his faith in Snape has always been 100%. Even if you believe that his trust in others is his one weakness, it makes Dumbledoor look pretty stupid to be fooled so completely, especially since Snape has never acted like he deserves such trust. When Dumbledore pleads with Snape at the end, it's possible what he was asking was for Snape to kill him so Draco wouldn't have to. Dumbledore was staring Snape deep in the eyes while pleading to him. Both are said to be skilled at Oculomancy. Dumbledore knew with all those Death Eaters around he'd likely be killed in his weakened state. He would likely prefer to save Draco from making that final step, so he asked Snape to do it. Snape also stops Harry from performing unforgivable curses after that. It's hard to believe Snape can be redeemed at this point, but it's also hard to believe that Dumbledore could be so wrong about Snape when he was always so certain about it.[/spoiler]

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Aug 26, 2005 5:32 am

[spoiler]I think the reason he smelled that scent in Potions was because he had spent the whole summer around Ginny and became used to having her around. When he got on the Hogwarts Express he realized Ginny wasn't always gonna be around like during the summer and realized he had feelings for her, as he shows throughout the book. So when he's in Potions, the scent he smells is Ginny, because he likes her (just like Hermione likes freshly cut grass or parchment or whatever)... I like your other theory Garble.. maybe Dumbledore was pleading for Snape to not kill Harry too.. I think there's something more to him being evil, because he would've killed Harry if he really wanted to.. I don't believe that he wanted to save him for Voldemort..[/spoiler]
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Post by Bamfette » Fri Aug 26, 2005 12:51 pm

I think Harry's feelings for Ginny were genuine... [spoiler] if it was obsessive love, he would have never broken up with her in the end. and as mentioned, Hermoine smelled fresh cut grass and etc. with the potion as well, him smelling the Weasley house merely showed his desire to be part of a real loving family, I thought. [/spoiler]

as for Snape.... that's a tricky one.

[spoiler]I keep going back on forth on that. on the one hand, if Snape really was evil through and through, it really does make Dumbledore look a bit foolish for having trusted him. on the other, it did seem Dumbledore was spilling his guts to Harry all through the book, possibly in preperation for dying. but what is really gained by planning his own death like that? save Malfoy from becoming a murderer? noble, in a way, i guess. but surely there are more important things to worry about right now...

It may be that Snape isn't for either side, he's just playing both sides so that he can weasel himself into the winning side in the end. [/spoiler]

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Aug 26, 2005 2:18 pm

The only problem with that decision is that he's stuck with Voldemort now.. if he would've let Draco do it, or possibly use that spell Dumbledore used in Order of the Phoenix (the silver one that took out Umbridge, Nott, Fudge, and Kingsley at once) maybe he could have rescued Dumbledore make it look like it was Dumbledore who had done it.. When I was reading the book I thought Dumbledore was biding his time so he could summon his wand (non-verbally) and disarm Malfoy, but it doesn't seem the case.. In addition to my last post the scent wasn't the Weasley house, it was Ginny, because in a later chapter he said he smelled that scent again when Ginny sat down at the table.. 3 YEARS TIL SHE STARTS WRITING IT?! WHY?!:(
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Post by Bamfette » Fri Aug 26, 2005 11:42 pm

ah, must have remembered wrong...

and she just had a baby, that's why.

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:29 am

That's quite alright, the only reason I knew that is cause I read that chapter the other day:LOL
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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 6:49 pm

I saw the trailer yesterday and wanted to show it here, but thought this thread was only for spoilers from the book.. This movie looks so cool.. I hope this guy directs OoTP too..
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Post by Bamfette » Fri Sep 16, 2005 7:10 pm

yeah, it looks pretty good. though it's really kinda insignificant, I do wonder, though, why they made Durmstang and Beaux Batons all boy/girl schools.
Moody also looks better in action, though still not fitting with how i pictured him when reading the book.

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Harry Potter... (spoilerific)

Post by bluefooted » Fri Sep 16, 2005 8:45 pm

I really want to give those kids some haircuts :whistle

Is it just me or is Harry starting to look like Frodo?

Seriously, though - that looks pretty cool. I loved the 3rd movie and was sad that the director (whose name I cannot spell) decided not to do Goblet, but this gives me hope. Also, it's awesome they decided to go with a PG-13 rating for a Harry Potter movie.

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Fri Sep 16, 2005 9:02 pm

I wondered about the gender-seperate schools too, but I guess it doesn't affect the story too much.. Something that stuck out for me was the height difference between Hagrid and Madame Maxime.. they were supposed to be basically the same exact height.. Did anyone else see Voldemort at the end? That was great.. I think Harry needs a haircut (his hair's supposed to be unkept, not shaggy like that) and maybe they need to dye Radcliffe's hair black.. oh well.. it'll still be a great movie..
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Post by Bamfette » Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:49 pm

I dunno, I think Ron has bigger hair issues than Harry :P and it's been brown for 3 movies before this, and hie eyes blue, no point in changing it. I think they cast the roll perfectly, despite the minor cosmetic differences. did you know, Steven Spielberg was up for directing duties on the first one, but Rowling vetoed him because he wanted to cast Haley Joel Osment? (not vetoed Osment specifically, but she wanted an all British cast) I think Radcliffe is a far better fit....

and yeah,the all boy/girl think is really trivial and doesn't actually affect much at all. it's just... why? i'm not really bothered by it though.

and yes, Voldemort... very brief look, but fittingly freaky looking. I wonder if they will stick with his [spoiler]uber-creepy pre-transformation stage of a twisted little baby/foetus...thing...[/spoiler]

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