Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Jeremus » Mon Mar 02, 2009 7:32 pm

I need to get something off my chest so I thought I'd run it by and see what you think. (I've tried to read thru the forums, so if someone else has already said these things, I apologize up front).
I keep thinking...why has Marvel taken such a character like Nightcrawler and basically ignored him lately (barring the solo series 3 years ago)? And why are they now setting him up to leave X-men for who knows where?
So I thought about why I liked X-men in the first place: complex characters, heroes who aren't always loved by the people they save, characters like Hank and Kurt who drive home the point that a person who looks like a beast isn't necessarily a beast, the underlying theme of "us" vs. "them" which the X-men reject, and the universal truth that some people tend to reject what they fear or don't understand.....which is exactly what I think the writers have done to Nightcrawler.
You can't very well write a charater you can't identify with and I think most of them just don't 'get' him anymore. I think that's the reason they put him in the background. It's like they've got to have him there because he's important, but they've lost the reason WHY he's important, so they just give him a line or two and move on.

In my opinion, Nightcrawler's importance is in his core attitude about life. Nowadays it seems that there are certain ways that people who are "different" are supposed to react to things....like if you're a furry blue mutant with pointy ears and somebody calls you "fuzzy elf", you're supposed to be offended by that. And if somebody hates you, you're supposed to hate him back or seek revenge (a la 'reality' tv)....not forgive him or risk your life for him even if you can't change his mind. If you're different, you're supposed to expect peope to reject you. You're supposed to be "tragic" and define your life by all the bad that's happened to you...(to dwell on the suffering, not on the overcoming of it).
But that's just it about Nightcrawler....people try to tear him down and he refuses to be a victim. Religious bigots have rallied against him, but he refuses to reject religion or God. Mobs of angry non-mutants have come after him, but he refuses to hate "those" people. He's been ostracized, even as a child, yet he refuses to become an anti-hero. And I think that's what stumps them. After all that, he's a genuinely happy person. He's completely alien to the modern popular notion of how he SHOULD be. He's unique. He doesn't fit the pattern of the moody, serious borderline superhero of today.
So they set it up that he doesn't 'fit' with the X-men anymore. Now he's got 'conflicts' (because of course, someone like him should have issues) and then they LITERALLY demonize him (because of course, if he looks like one, he must be one). So they redefine him into something they can accept and move on from there.
There have been so many versions of Nightcrawler: the light-hearted swashbuckler, the more self-assured leader of Excalibur, the religious priest-in-training, the seemingly younger Kurt of the last solo series, and the many versions of him on tv and movies, etc. Everyone has their favorite, but at his core Nightcrawler has never relly changed. It seems to me that now it's the writers who have changed....who've become the "angry mob" that wants to 'cure'/change him or who seem to just want him to go away (or die) so they can be more comfortable and don't have to deal with him anymore. I think this is what happened to Ultimate NC and I think it might happen to Uncanny's.

Sorry for the novel.:rolleyes So am I completely off base?
(Neling, I think you said once that you thought they feared him....I think you're right.)
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:13 am

Why would they fear him? They OWN him.

Honestly sometimes I think people on this board just don't understand that the people working at Marvel are... well, working. It's their job. They really don't give a damn in that way, at all. They care about the characters, because that's their job. They aren't personally invested in the characters, they are invested in their jobs (careers). They are going to do whatever they think will be good for the company, themselves, their job. Some of them are probably good at their jobs and some aren't, and sometimes otherwise talented and intelligent people make mistakes. (Austen's wife... I'm looking at you. I'm sure you're really smart and wonderful at your job most of the time!)

It's a job! IT'S A JOB.

[Edited on 3-3-2009 by Slarti]

Edited because the number one rule at Nightscrawlers is respect for one another. Thanks!

[Edited on 3-3-2009 by Slarti]
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Angelique » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:58 am

^ I think you don't understand that writing even professionally is not just a job. If you're more invested in "the job" than you are in spinning a good story with interesting characters, as a writer, you're not doing your job.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:24 am

If you're abandoning a character who has been loved and treasured for thirty years, I agree, you're not doing your job.

Much like some insane bitch who spends the Student Government money and gets fired from her position, resulting in her spamming the newspaper website for making a news article about it. She just... wasn't doing her job. But she can't figure that out.


:shifty

Wow way off topic.


Anyways!
I think there's more to what he was saying than just "the job".
I think what we're getting at here (or Jeremus was sorry I don't mean to speak for you but excuse me while I do)
is that simply, Nightcrawler is being trashed because they don't know how to handle him. An example of this is Hiro Nakumora on Heroes.
:rolleyes
right, right, that little Japanese guy on Heroes what's he got to do with kurt? so he can teleport (in and out of time mind you) who cares?

Well here's why. He's too much. As was Peter who borrowed multiple powers at a time. And Matt who can control people's minds. Or Daphne who is UBER fast.

They negated a lot of these characters, or took their powers, or slightly de-powered them to make a "challenge" in the third season. They also gave Ando powers, but all he can do is charge other peoples abilities, rendering him relatively useless alone and thus, creating much needed "drama". Being it is a TV series.

HOWEVER,
They killed their Hiro Fan base. To have Heroes with NO time changing Hiro Nakumora is blasphemy to most of the fans and with each episode they DON'T bring his powers back, the more people they lose for fans (I assure you this is true).
Yes, they're bringing back some cooler character with slightly less promising powers (Claude the invisible Brit, the chick who lives in computers, etc...) However; they're sacrificing a beloved, cherished character who surprisingly has a LOT of Kurt's qualities in him, for characters that they feel will have more "exploration" into the series.

Does this mean they shouldn't use these characters? Of course not. But they shouldn't write off Hiro. If they don't bring back his powers- or do so in time- they could have a major drop of ratings.

Same goes for Marvel. They've become afraid of what he can do. Soul sword? He's pleasant, you don't get that on X-men anymore everyone's angsty (Scott/Angel/Logan) or Bitchy (Emma/Emma/Emma), and worse off, there's another teleporter who's cuter and apparently a writer is "in total love with".
So we're to assume then that Kurt has become a character they can't control (or some writers who are bad at their jobs feel they can't) or worse off, they feel that Kurt's abilities have become lame and unusable. Or counter-productive to story.

So they, in essence, do away with him.
Mistake. Big one. And I'll rub the palms of my hand together as Marvel realizes they lost a good percentage of their readers from this mistake.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby fourpawsonthefloor » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:25 am

I don't think that there's a conspiracy against him...I just think that people with different takes and interests flow in and out of marvel and so characters are always in flux. I can guarentee at any given time there's about 10 fanbases crying out for blood. And that is a very low ball number.

Kitty Pride would be a good example there.

Marvel has got a tough job. Cause no matter what they do - someone is bound to be crazy pissed off.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby neling4 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 4:22 pm

Sorry. I should have read your post twice before I posted. I thought you meant that literally. You make some excellent points, Jeremus.

[Edited on 3/3/09 by neling4]
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Jeremus » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:01 pm

Yes, it's a job.....but there is such a thing as doing a BAD job. If your job is creating heroes and adventure stories and you don't care enough to do it right, then get another job. Go write instruction manuals or something. These guys who write comics WANT to write comics. But if they don't take time to do a little research about the characters they're writing about, or don't respect the characters enough to keep them consistant, then they're doing a BAD job. Also, Marvel's creating characters and promoting them and setting up their website to get more people to read about them and thereby creating a huge fanbase.....which is their bread and butter. So Marvel takes our money and then screws the fanbase.....that's not good business and if Marvel is hiring these types of people who can't take on a character like Nightcrawler, then they're not only hurting the fans, they're hurting themselves.
I'm saying that Nightcrawler is a complex character and that many new writers aren't up to the task of understanding him, much less writing him well. It's much easier to write one-dimensional characters in a predictable storyline, and just as easy to sweep a three-dimensional character under the rug.

I agree with Angelique and Ult_sm86 (who, by the way, said the whole thing better than I did).

I do agree with Fourpaws in that it's not a conspiracy (I think the new writers are just products of the times and Nightcrawler isn't anything they're used to dealing with)....and that Marvel does have a tough job on their hands. (They have to come up with new stories and they've got so many characters to keep up with....and X-men is just one little corner of their empire.) And I don't know what "law" to call it (I don't think it's Murphy's Law) but it is definitely in effect: that you can't please all the people all the time. Absolutely true.

I even agree with TheDrastic Spastic in a way.... that in reality, the writers are just working a job. (I mean, all this comic stuff.....what does it really matter anyway? Nightcrawler, the X-men, the Avengers, Spiderman.....they don't really exist, do they? Marvel is just a business and in competition with other businesses for money and they hire a lot of people who need work and that's what they're doing.....working.) I agree that some of the writers are not personally invested in the characters and only care about them because it's their job. But (to me) THAT'S the problem!

I'm a fan of one particular character that was created 30 years ago and that character has taken on a life of his own and means a lot to me. And maybe in the "real" world I don't talk about him much because I don't know any other X-men fans, but here on the fan website, I can. I have a lot invested in this character, and if the writers don't, I can't help that....but I have a right to complain about it.
And again, all this is only my opionion.


To Neling4: I'm sorry. I didn't mean to misquote you. You said about some of the current writers at Marvel "....and this is their cowardly way of getting him out of the way." It must have been someone else who said "fear". (I'll find out tomorrow, because my computer time is up for the day). I formally apologize to you. You're the last person I'd ever want to hurt. I do, however, still agree with you.


[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby neling4 » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:39 pm

No problem. I'm not offended at all. No need to apologize. I should apologize to you. I just re-read your post and I agree with it. I just couldn't remember saying it in just that way.

If someone did actually say that, I would be interested in knowing the context. Was it here or at Marvel?
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Postby Jeremus » Tue Mar 03, 2009 5:55 pm

I'm just sure I saw it at Marvel. But I was also looking at the Marvel Wolverine forum trying to find out if anyone there was saying anything about Nightcrawler, so maybe somebody there said it (but on second thought, why would anyone say that there?). Then again, I am getting older and they say your brain starts to shrink....so there's that possibility.

And you definitely don't have to apologize to me! I'm the one who screwed up.

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Sun Aug 16, 2009 8:57 pm

Dragging up dead posts again... but this was like the second thread I found on this site and I desperately wanted to talk about it.

The X-Men have always tried for "edgy" people. Something new, exciting, different. Especially with that second team, inviting a Russian guy during the Cold War when every bad guy on television had either a German or Russian accent. It's why they have gay characters on the team now: the X-Men have always been about acceptance, basically no matter what. Wolverine, a former assasin, is on the team, and Magneto, one of their greatest "bad guys" has also been a part of the X-Men. It's kind of the "minority" team. And there's really nothing wrong with that part!

But lately, the mentality of minorities has changed. Hatred, slander, and propaganda have become the rules for reaction. Or at least moodiness, issues, etc. EVERYTHING must now be taken at face value: every insult must be paid back in full. But nobody's really "bad" -- only the bigots who are hateful and refuse to allow them in. Traditionally bad characters -- vampires, werewolves, monsters -- are suddenly sympathetic heroes, not evil villains. In this era of "openness," people must be accepted for "who they are."

Why does this pertain to Nightcrawler? Because no longer can we have the character who looks like a demon, but isn't. He's being delusional and irrationally frightened of his own true self. That character must be a demon, but we can still accept him as a demon. It's "who he is." Who are we to say that it's so wrong to be part demon? Can't he still be a good guy?

The brooding, tragic rebel sells. So they try to make every hero a brooding tragic rebel, even if it's completely OOC. Because they don't care about being OOC. They care about selling a product, and if Dark Knight has anything to say, it's that dark sells better than light.

The times are changing. And so the comic books evolve to try and fit those times. People who long for the "good old days" of comicdom are either old, irrelevant fogies whose hair is going gray and who are standing with one foot in the grave and the other on a banana peel, or they are hopeless nostalgics. It's time to "move on," according to Marvel. It's time to make these characters fit into the new worldview.

Unfortunately, Nightcrawler has too many morals and too bright a personality for the new worldview. The swashbuckling and damseling doesn't sell anymore. Errol Flynn is of bygone generations. What people want now is a character like Edward Cullen or at least Dark Knight's Batman, with nitty-gritty "reality" thrown in, violence and hatred and angst. Nightcrawler will no longer fit in this new, dark world. The light he has within him, despite everything he's gone through, is something that the new writers just can't wrap their fingers around. Nightcrawler is doomed to either having his character corrupted and twisted beyond recognition, or falling with a soft, meaningless 'thump' by the wayside.

Unless somebody wants to harness that light in the darkness, someone who can take him and stay true to his character by being truly different: daring to create a character who is truly content with himself and who he is, confident, optimistic, and compassionate. Not a demon, despite his looks, not angsty, despite the way he's been treated. Somebody needs to find that light and figure out where it comes from, and once they know where it comes from, the character can work again.

Personally, I think that light comes from his relationship with God, but that may just be me.

Sorry about the novel, I feel really strongly about this!
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RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.
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Postby LIV4TheObsession » Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:10 pm

I totally agree with Dedicatedfollower467! I think that a good way to bring Kurt back into stories would be to have a Wolverine, Nightcrawler, and maybe Colossus team up story. Wolverine is getting so much spotlight now because of his new movie and TV show, so Marvel could use that extra attention to showcase some of their other characters!
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Postby Jeremus » Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:53 pm

Dedicatedfollower467 wrote:Sorry about the novel, I feel really strongly about this!



Well said! I like your "novel".
(...And you know that I agree with you!:D)
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Postby Elfdame » Tue Aug 18, 2009 2:13 am

Well put, Def!
"Humanity is a parade of fools, and I am at the front of it, twirling a baton." From Chapter 9 of _Brother Odd_ by Dean Koontz / from Chapter 10: "Life you can evade; death you cannot."

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Postby wizardelfgirl » Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:16 am

Adding my two cents here, I totally agree with what has been said. Even though Kurt has conflicts and issues and problems --that's what makes him a complex character and a believable character-- his deep faith and his natural optimist attitude make him too bright to turn into a brooding hero. That's why he is such a good complement to Wolverine, and viceversa. whenever Wolverine needs to regain his perspective of things, to remember why he fights, he goes to Kurt. Whenever Kurt needs to just let go and let his instincts take control, he goes to Wolverine. That's why they became such good friends in my opinion.

While I enjoyed the 12-issue solo, it was obvious that Marvel was trying to turn Kurt into a more emo character and it didn't work. Yes, having him more conflicted, more moody even, was nice and somehow fetching, but his charming, rogish personality was never far away and trying to curb that personality instead of finding a balance between it and this new dark side they tried to imbue in him resulted in cancellation. Simple as that.
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:49 pm

Focusing on faith is what made him so dark in the first place. Who knows how to write an extremely religious character who isn't either monstrously dull or a complete crackpot (or both)? No one at Marvel! That shit is hard. Because, well.... because. I'm not sure it's possible honestly.

It only works if it's a quiet background part of a character that is rarely mentioned - like with normal people in real life. I have no idea what most of my friends believe, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't matter. Well, unless they start talking about it all the time. Then it's annoying. I had one friend ask about my beliefs, turned out they were the same as his. Then we high-fived and (pay attention, this is the important part) never spoke of it again.

If you're bringing your personal beliefs up all the time, you're going to bore/alienate more (WAY MORE) people than you charm. The whole thing has just got to stop. It is much too "hot" of an issue to make it such a central part of the character.

Unfortunately they've really dug themselves into a hole with it.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby wizardelfgirl » Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:49 am

The Drastic Spastic wrote:Focusing on faith is what made him so dark in the first place.


Well, that kinda was the point, wasn't it? They only focused on one part of his personality, and they turned that part into his "dark side". I don't think that showing the religious side of a character makes them dull or crazy, it's showing them as complete zealots that does that. And Nightcrawler may be deeply religious, but he's not a zealot.

That whole priest thing was a complete screw up. It just wasn't part of his personality. I may be against a lot of Chuck Austen's work (Down with Azazel!), but he was right in one thing: Kurt should have never been made a priest. His way of taking him out of priesthood may not have been the best, and he then made the mistake of doing the total opposite and focusing on his demonic appearance, but at least he did something to try to bring back his impish side.

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Postby Elfdame » Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:55 am

The Drastic Spastic wrote:
It only works if it's a quiet background part of a character that is rarely mentioned - like with normal people in real life. I have no idea what most of my friends believe, and that's the way I like it. It doesn't matter. Well, unless they start talking about it all the time. Then it's annoying. I had one friend ask about my beliefs, turned out they were the same as his. Then we high-fived and (pay attention, this is the important part) never spoke of it again.

If you're bringing your personal beliefs up all the time, you're going to bore/alienate more (WAY MORE) people than you charm. The whole thing has just got to stop. It is much too "hot" of an issue to make it such a central part of the character.


Unfortunately, when you're solidly in love, you tend to talk about the person you love. If you've found something that "works" for a lot of people -- be it vitamins, a certain type of therapy, or an educational method -- you want to share it with as many people as possible. So, a Christian wants all his/her friends to know the best Friend, and a Catholic wants everyone to have the same help along the way. It's a natural thing, not like collecting pelts on a belt.

I get extremely weary of people who always talk about sex, but they seem to be everywhere. So I try to be tolerant of that and hope they would be as understanding about my interest in God.

The Cadfael series of books (and BBC vids) had a well-rounded character who was (in two senses) "religious." It is difficult to write a character who is deeply into any one subject, but it doesn't have to be cookie-cutter as Marvel seems to have done with Nighty.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:41 pm

Oh, goodness. It isn't impossible to write well-done, not-overly-religious characters! I've done it, and I've seen it done!

I agree though, it works best as a "background" thing. I like the old Kurt. Like, where he could be the charming, smooth, silver-tongued devil, and every now and then you would see him do something like praying or talk about how his beliefs seem to be at odds with his feelings. That's a real Christian. That's somebody who is different and bright and happy because they know they're content with God, but doesn't need to shriek it to the heavens and hit everybody over their heads with a Bible. I'm Christian, and I HATE Bible-thumpers.

I know a lot of people get the wrong impression of Christians: uptight boring people who "take all the fun out of life" or crazy bigots who want to throw out everything that doesn't fit in with their impression of the world. That's the kind of "Christian" Marvel tends to portray, as they have slowly turned Kurt into a man who is either a dull, not-there boring rule-bound stiff, or a doubter. That's not the two choices you have!

Kurt could easily be shown to draw strength, happiness, and a bright spot in the darkness, from his beliefs. It's been shown before, what comes to mind easiest for me is the first time he admitted his beliefs to Wolverine, when they were about to attack the Sleazoids. He gains comfort from the knowledge that if/when he dies, he is going to heaven, and he feels praying may be the only thing to do. It's a brilliant portrayal of what Christians are really like... you'll notice that the next panel with him in it shows him and Wolverine seeing if they can get the food processor to create beer.

Agh! Another novel!
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Right across the lane from the demon and just down the wall from Wolverine.


RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.
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Postby Angelique » Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:17 pm

It isn't impossible at all to write a character who is fun-loving, swashbuckling, and religious, even overtly, zealously religious. You just have to know how to do that. The problem is that you have to be familiar enough with the character's religion in order to handle that aspect of his or her character well.

The problem is not that Nightcrawler is a devoutly Catholic character. The problems arise when writers don't know enough about Catholicism, don't do their research, and editorial doesn't catch it.

As I had hammered into me since high school creative writing class, write what you you, and if you don't know, find out. Then you won't do silly things like making a character an ordained Catholic priest after only six months of study. And it's not as if there's a shortage of devout Catholics a writer can, you know, ask for help.

What I loved about the last solo series was that it showed Nightcrawler as a more average member of the Catholic laity who did not angst about his religion, but regarded it openly as a source of comfort and strength.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby love_of_bob » Thu Aug 20, 2009 1:35 am

They don't fear him. Why would they? They just don't think he makes for very compelling stories. Writers don't feel inspired by him. And I can understand it. If a writer has to choose between a darker, conflicted character with issues and a light-hearted, peaceful character who loves life, he'll jump for the first one and not throw a second glance at the other. Especially if he's got a deadline and his paycheck is depending on people buying the story.

Because stories are made out of conflict. And Kurt's conflict is undermined by the comfort that he's found. Therefore, his job is, and has always been, to provide a stable foil for other, more flexible characters, like Wolverine and Kitty Pryde. Claremont didn't use Kurt much, either, and finally he just threw him out. We tend to talk of Excalibur as Kurt's "heyday", but really, even that was Kitty's show. She was the one who consistently took action while Kurt stood back and thought about it. She was the one who had the stories. She's popular because she's super-easy to write about. She has spark, she has drive, she is relatable, she has an infinite amount of crazy skills at her disposal and her "cute little girl" schtick is always going to garner the readers' sympathies.

A character who is peaceful, who always thinks before he acts, who gets over every problem before they barely start to bother him, a character like that is just not a very exciting protagonist. Especially not in the Marvel context, where he's surrounded by tons of characters that are far more flexible, have far richer histories to draw from and far stronger and more flexible powers to boot. For a writer, it's harder to think of a way for a character to get to the other side of a mountain if all that character has is a spoon. If he's then given a choice to write about a guy with a huge drill, then hey, why bother?

Sure, we can ask for light-hearted swashbuckling adventures, but Marvel gets its money from DRAMA and ACTION. The readers want to feel like something big is at stake.
Light-hearted stuff doesn't sell. These writers get paid to write a title that sells. A title that doesn't sell might well lose them a job, maybe their entire career. So they stick with the safe, tried-and-true characters and concepts, and get the conflict where it's easiest to get it. And Kurt's just not it.

An exceptionally skilled writer could probably do something with him, if he cared to, but if we want Kurt in a main role, I think it would have to entail a re-haul of the character, because he's been pretty unambitious and passive his entire existence. And a project like that is more likely to fall flat than not.

They were apparently going to reveal him to be a Skrull. I assume it was the info-leak that made them retract that decision. Maybe that could have been a new start. But it didn't happen. And now, Kurt has so much baggage of bad stories, I can totally see why writers aren't very eager to touch him.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Angelique » Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:48 am

You know what? It was excessive darkness, drama, and angsty action and not enouvh action of the fun or even flat-out awesome Nightcrawler variety that caused me to drop a lot of books, including my former favorite, Uncanny. If DRAMA and (non-Nightcrawler) ACTION are what sells comics, I'm not buying, and I know a lot of other people who aren't buying. How has adding more angst and drama helped comic sales, hm? If I want conflict and DRAMA, I can just mention the bills to my husband. I read comics to see things like a good guy duking it out with freakin' Mephisto and coming out on top, not the Scott and Emma soap opera that has dominated too many X-books.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby wizardelfgirl » Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:43 am

I do like a healthy dose of angst and drama in comics, but not the whole comic to be about that.

That said, I think one of the problems is that at some point the writers made Kurt too passive and peaceful... and that led to the terrible priesthood idea. Which is was not what Kurt was about. Yes, he provides some stability to the more conflicted characters, but that doesn't mean he's not conflicted himself. Being religious doesn't make you all-knowing and non-doubting, unlike what comic writers seem to believe. I'm sure there was a well of possibilities for him to be developed as a far more interesting character, even if his poweres are not that, well, powerful. Using love_of_bob's metaphor, if a character has a drill to get to the other side of the mountain, they will only use the drill, brute strength, to get to the other side. A lot of exciting action, I'm sure, but no real development, no real challenge. Now, a character that has only a spoon will have to rely on their intellect to be able to use that spoon. There will be action, but there will also be strategy. I like action, I like adventure, but I also like challenge. That's one of the reasons I like Spiderman, 'cause he uses both his powers and his brain to solve stuff. And that's why I sometimes despair of Wolverine. Once his rage takes control, it's just mindless fury and nothing else (except his feeling guilty later and making even MORE drama). If it weren't for his healing factor he would have been killed a looooooong time ago.

It doesn't mean that characters should always stick to strategies and thinking everything before acting, etc, cuz that would only turn them into drones or something. As human beings (even if fictional) many times they will let their emotions take control and they will make mistakes and a lot of drama will ensue. But pure conflict and drama is not good either. A small dose of comedy is always needed. Even Wolverine sometimes jokes.

Aaand I kinda lost the thread of what I was saying. Blame work. Or being thirsty, because I am thirsty. Be back later!

[Edited on 20/8/09 by wizardelfgirl]
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby Elfdame » Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:53 am

Wizardelfgirl:
That's one of the reasons I like Spiderman, 'cause he uses both his powers and his brain to solve stuff.
I definitely am sure I like you now. :D And don't forget my favourite weapon in his arsenal: his sense of humour.

I agree with Ang, that for SOME markets angst and hyper-sexuality and drama sell, but I wonder why SO MANY fanfics which carry tons of positive reviews tend to portray Kurt as the fun-loving swashbuckler. Even when he's faced with terrible situations (ask Raven, hint, hint), his basic PERSONALITY helps him rise above it, and that delights a lot of readers.

Even though it's a bit of a slight to the late Creator Cockrum for so many of us to enjoy Catholic/"religious" Nighty, IMO it does add a certain reality to his character.

And, while I give love_of_bob credit for making a valid point (and making it clearly and persuasively), I don't think that he must remain in the background to be a good part of the team. Read a bio of St. Edmund Campion and you'll see that there's a lot of drama inherent in thinking about dire situations and then meeting them head-on and to hell with the consequences, relying on faith and kindness to smooth the landing. If the character of Kurt Wagner weren't so enticing and intriguing, why would his fans stick around and hope with each new book or issue that he would be used to full effect? there is something there with which to work. Kind of like McGyver (sp?): a cute, clever, witty guy going up against a buncha cutthroats, outwitting them all and getting a kiss from a pretty gal as part of his reward. (Okay, I didn't watch him but my girlfriends and husband did. I'm going mostly on hearsay.)

[Edited on 20/8/09 by Elfdame]
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby love_of_bob » Thu Aug 20, 2009 10:59 pm

Angelique wrote:You know what? It was excessive darkness, drama, and angsty action and not enouvh action of the fun or even flat-out awesome Nightcrawler variety that caused me to drop a lot of books, including my former favorite, Uncanny. If DRAMA and (non-Nightcrawler) ACTION are what sells comics, I'm not buying, and I know a lot of other people who aren't buying. How has adding more angst and drama helped comic sales, hm?


Pretty well. X-Force and Wolverine are hits, while light-hearted titles like First Class sell very little. She-Hulk was fun and light-hearted and it got cancelled. X-Factor is pretty light on big, explosive action and despite good characterization, it doesn't sell very well.
Sales go up with big events, which is why they keep launching one big event after another. DC's Blackest Night tops the charts right now and it's all about heroes dying and coming back as zombies. Marvel's launching Necrosha, which is a pretty similar thing. Sure, sales have gone down overall, but we're in the midst of a recession and let's face it, comics are hardly the big medium they once were. Most people look to other sources for their entertainment these days.
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Does Marvel fear Nightcrawler?

Postby wizardelfgirl » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:22 am

Elfdame wrote:And don't forget my favourite weapon in his arsenal: his sense of humour.


And now I'm definitely sure I like you too. ;)


Pretty well. X-Force and Wolverine are hits, while light-hearted titles like First Class sell very little. She-Hulk was fun and light-hearted and it got cancelled. X-Factor is pretty light on big, explosive action and despite good characterization, it doesn't sell very well.


As much as it hurts, I have to agree. Antiheroes and hyper drama are what sells right now. Yet even drama needs some comic relief to balance out the plot. Even deeply scarred characters have fun once in a while.

What I'm trying to say is that Nightcrawler has quite a lot of potential to be the kind of character that sells, only his conflicts coming from other issues. Problem is that the character has been irreparably ruined by bad writers that didn't understand this potential. The only 2 ways that Nightcrawler could be revived are either having a new solo that revamped his whole background and started all over again (X-Men Origins: Nightcrawler :LOL), or that the whole X-Men line began again (last revamp was in the early 1990s, right?).

I guess that's why I feel more attracted by the movieverse right now. Even if it's loosely based on the comicverse, it's a whole separate and unexplored world. You can manipulate the characters as you wish because canon there is not as solid as in the comicverse. Kind of like a fresh start.
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