Kurt's Origins and How They Change

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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:13 am

Okay, I have no idea where to ask this question, so I'm putting it right here...

I want to know, what was Nightcrawler's original origin (in universe)?

Like, when Dave created the character, where did this demonic character come from?

Second, what alterations has his origin gone through? What was the story before Azazel came on the scene? And what was the story before that? Before that?

Basically, I want every origin for Nightcrawler ever considered canon.

Because being a newbie, I've only ever heard "He's got a demon father," which doesn't sit well with me because I liked the character without knowing his origin and the fact that he IS half-demon when people have called him that all his life... well it just goes against everything I like about Nightie, that's all.

So, thanks for taking the time to read this! Answers, anyone?
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RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Amber-Night » Wed Aug 12, 2009 8:55 am

Hi
I read somewhere that Mystique and a Demon guy called Azazel from biblogical times are Kurts parents.
Kurt was shunned at birth due to his having blue skin, pointed ears, fangs, and a long pointed tail. At the time disguised as the Baroness Wagner, Mystique's true identity was revealed after she gave birth to Kurt, and the pair were chased by an angry mob. Fleeing to the nearby falls, Mystique threw Kurt over the edge and fled. Kurt was saved by his natural father, known as Azazel, and given into the care of Margali Szardos, a sorceress and gypsy queen.
He was born in Bavaria, i'm guessing due to his accent its in Germany or near Germany!
i think thats right but im not sure coz im a newbie to :)
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby steyn » Wed Aug 12, 2009 10:57 am

What Amber said is mostly correct.

Originally Kurt was Mystique and the Baron Wagner's son, then I think it was insinuated that he's Mystique and Sabertooth's son. And then it got officially retconned to be Mystique and the demon Azazel's son. I'm still holding thumbs (crossing fingers for you american peeps) that he's really Mystique and Sabertooth's boy. :shifty explains the furry and fangs :toothy

I think Azazel and the other demons like him was only made to bring in more magic to the marvel universe.

Cockrum also never intended him to be religious. Personally I prefer the good old suave swashbuckling superhero who loves the ladies.

I'm not really the best of experts on NC, but I'm sure if you search around here on the forum, or on the internet, you'll find all the answers to your questions.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Nandireya » Wed Aug 12, 2009 12:57 pm

When Dave originally drew him one dark and stormy night, he saw him as being a failed demon, that he'd been sent to Earth to do some task and had totally mucked it up so he was afraid to go home. He dropped that over time. He was first offered to DC for a group called The Outsiders but was deemed 'too weird looking'. So when the 'All new, all different' X-Men came along, Dave saw the opportunity to give his little blue boy another chance at stardom. I've got some other stuff (including pictures) at my Nighty Site here.

But that's probably not the origin you're after...but others have mostly covered that...but I'll add my take anyway :D

He was found as a pretty much newborn by Margali Szardaos, who took him in and raised him alongside her own children, Stephan and Jimaine, though she never formally adopted him or anything (so the Kurt/Jimaine romance is not in the least bit incestuous). She told him when he was older that she found him with his dead father, whom she identified as Eric Wagner.

The connection with Mystique came along pretty early, from the first time he saw her and noticed how similar they appeared. She teased him about it at the time, but it was a plot-line that was dragged along for a very lone time until it was finally revealed that she was his birth mother (Chris Claremont has said that he originally intended for her to be his FATHER and Destiny his mother, but Marvel found that too icky). She told him the story of the German (sometimes Austrian) Count who was his father, and how he'd been freaked at the sight of his new-born son. The villagers had become an angry mob and she disguised herself as one of them and threw him over a waterfall to save her own skin...and that's where Margali found him. And for a long time that was his accepted origin.

Then Chuck Austen came along...

And there was much wailing and gashing of teeth in the Nighty fandom.

It was revealed that Mystique had cheated (and cheated and cheated) on her blue-blooded hubby, and one of these sessions had resulted in her giving birth to a bouncing, blue-furred, pointed-eared, prehensile-tailed baby boy. Hubby was suspicious, so she bumped him off before the birth. The father was Azazel...basically a red-skinned version of Kurt...who it must be pointed out is a MUTANT. He is NOT a demon. He said so himself. He's just an extremely long-lived mutant with magical abilities. And he's hardly alone in that. Wanda...Illyana...even Ororo...have magical abilities or heritages.

So whichever origin you wish to hold onto as the truth, Kurt is in no was a demon. That was just a Marvel editorial muck-up.

[Edited on 12-8-2009 by Nandireya]
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby neling4 » Wed Aug 12, 2009 5:07 pm

I can't remember that Erik Wagner was ever Austrian. BTW, he was never a Count until Austin. At one point he became a Baron, and later his name was misspelled as Eric, but until Austin took over destroying Kurt's origin, he was the son of Erik Wagner, German hiker, found dead outside a roadside shelter in the Bavarian Alps. Kurt and his mother were found inside by Margali, who took Kurt per his mother's dying request.

Here is one of the original versions:

http://www.the-nightcrawler.net/images/ ... fullsize=1


Here is his original original origin:

http://www.the-nightcrawler.net/images/ ... fullsize=1


[Edited on 12/8/09 by neling4]
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Nandireya » Wed Aug 12, 2009 11:22 pm

I think the 'Austrian Count' was introduced in the animated series.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Angelique » Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:49 am

Nandireya wrote:I think the 'Austrian Count' was introduced in the animated series.


It was. But one thing I liked about the animated series' origin story of Kurt was that it still somehow made more sense.

He went by Wagner because that was the name of the family who adopted him. Real adoption, real family, no weird thing with someone who, if she wasn't a sister, was nonetheless called his sister, no biological dad who says he's a mutant but claims the identity of a demon, et cetera,.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:33 pm

Thanks for the info folks. It's really helpful to know the "full" story.

I actually have a collection (tpb? i think that's what it is) of Uncanny X-Men with some Amanda/Kurt going on. When I found out she was his adopted sister it was like :yech

but um... :tub... need I say more? Lol love that comic.
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Right across the lane from the demon and just down the wall from Wolverine.


RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Nachtkriec » Thu Mar 25, 2010 1:12 pm

i heard that raven was married to erik wagner, but she cheated with this demon guy,Azazel, and then were divorced, then raven gives birth to kurt then goes and kills erik in the road, margali finds him and usomes that kurts last name is wagner cause thats what the police tell her eriks last name is, or thats what i got for it anyways
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby JackSkulls » Thu Mar 25, 2010 2:30 pm

Technically if you go by Azazel's marvel wikai page, he is a Neyaphem mutant, keyword mutant. Then if you go to the Neyaphem page it says they're an age old mutant race and that there is another one called Cheyarafim (Angel), it's basically demon and angel mutant, there's a few lines in there that say the cheyarafim blood hurts neyaphem's and stuff like that, things like they've been fighting for long time and stuff like that.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Mar 26, 2010 3:58 am

So here's what I wanna know....

what happened to the Stefan story plot--y'know where his adoptive brother starts mutilating people or something, and Kurt tries to stop him, and then he accidentally dies. How does that tie in, now that the new Nightcrawler Origins is out, and does not include this?

is it Ret-conned? Or was that not an origin but a separate adventure? I had thought that had been a retconned origin to how he got on teh team.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Angelique » Fri Mar 26, 2010 6:06 am

The whole story of Stefan was not an origin story per se. (In fact, the whole gypsy upbringing was the first of many retcons of Kurt's origins.) When Kurt first appeared, there was no reason specified for the mob coming after him. The whole thing with Stefan and the murders was added later. And then it was amended that it happened after Kurt had already been in the states a while.

There's nothing in this origin story that precludes anything happening to Stefan at some later date.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Garble » Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:10 pm

The Kurt-kills-Stefan story has been retconed a couple of times as well.

First in an X-Men Annual #4 flashback, Stefan had just gone insane and started murdering people. Kurt fought him and Stefan fell back and hit his head on a rock.

Then in Marvel Comics Presents: Nightcrawler and Wolverine, Stefan had been murdering what he thought were monsters but were actually a race shape-shifters. Stefan killed himself using Kurt's tail. (seriously)

Then, the Nightcrawler solo series retells it again where Stefan was possessed by a demon made out of flies. This time Kurt accidentally snaps Stefan's neck while trying to stop him from stabbing a child.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby JackSkulls » Sat Mar 27, 2010 12:39 am

:shifty *doesn't like that they ret-conned the azazel stuff* I thought it added an extra cool little bit to it
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Mar 27, 2010 1:14 am

It hasn't officially been ret-conned, but it's not being addressed, so it's safe to assume, it didn't happen.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Jeremus » Fri Jan 20, 2012 7:03 pm

I was trying to find out a little more about the original Outsiders Nightcrawler character that Mr. Cockrum created, and I have come across the name "Baltshazaar" or "Baltazar"as his name....but there are never any references listed to say where that name came from. Does anyone know if Mr. Cockrum called him "Baltazar" or was it just always "Nightcrawler"?
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Bamf Girl » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:52 am

Jeremus wrote:I was trying to find out a little more about the original Outsiders Nightcrawler character that Mr. Cockrum created, and I have come across the name "Baltshazaar" or "Baltazar"as his name....but there are never any references listed to say where that name came from. Does anyone know if Mr. Cockrum called him "Baltazar" or was it just always "Nightcrawler"?


Yeah, his real name was Baalshazzar instead of Kurt Wagner, but his code name was still Nightcrawler. He was originally written as an interdimentional alien, and his personality was way different from the loveable elf we know. I'm personally very happy that his character was altered from that original concept and was made to be more like Mr. Cockrum himself.

I might have the write-up of Nighcrawler's first profile for the Outsiders that talks about his alien origins, villainous attitude, etc. somewhere in my image collection. If you want, I could find it and upload it. Just let me know. :)



Edit-

Found it!! I figured I'd upload it just in case. :D

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[Edited on 1/21/12 by Bamf Girl]
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Jeremus » Sat Jan 21, 2012 6:03 pm

Wow! Perfect!
That's exactly what I was looking for.
Thanks!:bounce
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 6:19 pm

Nandireya wrote:
So whichever origin you wish to hold onto as the truth, Kurt is in no was a demon.

[Edited on 12-8-2009 by Nandireya]


That is where Marvel and whatever writer is handling things at the moment is inconsistent.
Two specific references, where just the opposite is stated are:
X-Infernus #4 -- a conversation between Illanya and Nightcrawler, where he replies to her comment that she has no soul. It is an old(er) issue, but will do a spoiler alert anyway, for those concious of such things.

SPOILERS







NC: "I've been called monster. I've been hunted. Hell, I'm the son of a demon. Does that mean I have no soul? I don't know for sure. It isn't something I can touch, something I can control. All I control is what I do. I make the choices I think are right and that is all I can do. I decided I have a soul."


Another is Manifest Destiny #1, Kurt Wagner's solo schtick and a conversation with Mephisto at the end: (I'll put it in full context, it is several panels long.)
NC: "Mephisto?! Is..is that what this was about? You getting some kind of revenge for me refusing your offer? I wouldn't join your side for the demon war, so you -- what? -- try to teach me some kind of lesson?!"
Mephisto: "Don't be so arrogant..." (yadda yadda, goes on to explain the dastardly deed) "... Thought I will own the result. Twelve blood-thirsty souls spilled out -- and I drank them all."
NC: "Why bring me into this?"
Mephisto: "To show you. To show you exactly how you are going to end up. Feared. Hated. And alone.
You are a demon boy. And even your mutant friends will never know what that means -- if they can ever completely trust you.
You feel it don't you? The irresistible pull ever downward? You can only fight who you are for so long.
NC: "You are wrong. Ironically, coming to Winzeldorf, seeing my past enshrined and seeing what I overcame in Henrik made me realize...I am truly proud of who I am. Proud of the choices I have made. " (so forth)
Mephisto taunts him with pride being a deadly sin and departs.



END SPOILER

So anyway, Marvel seems unable to make up their own mind on the functional definition of what a demon is, much less if Nightcrawler is the son of one.
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Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby Sundown » Sun Jan 22, 2012 7:59 pm

To add to what I said above, I've wondered if that conversation was a bit of foreshadowing for a possible future comeback basis. (Probably just wishful thinking for ANY sort of comeback. :( )

I know there appeared to be another bit of foreshadowing/reminder of AoA Kurt in the end, when he appears to teleport off his opponent's head (though he reveals it was just the helmet.)
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Re: Kurt's Origins and How They Change

Postby jrnewto » Thu Sep 20, 2012 9:52 am

Should check this breakdown for Kurt's origin:
http://fanfix.wordpress.com/2012/09/18/ ... parentage/
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