To Retcon the Draco Arc...

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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Thu Aug 20, 2009 6:14 pm

I recently acquired permission to start this thread, thanks to Saint Kurt and all the moderators here at Nightscralwers! :)

THANK YOU!

A few days ago, I had a conversation with one of the administrators at Marvel concerning how to effect a change in a character, and he gave me this advice:


Petitions do nothing really, so asking Marvel to do something like this is kind of pointless. Marvel knows numbers can be inflated by signing up more than once using multiple e-mails, computers, etc. What is really needed in cases where readers would like something changed, is letters to Marvel through snail mail (letters through the post office). The most important thing is to be respectful in the request, while being short and to the point. Best way to go about doing it is to gather a group of fans, usually at a Nightcrawler website, where they can post at a forum and get organized. Then send in the letters around the sametime so that there is a massive amount of input by the fans. Every letter should have a return address, because if it doesn't have one, then it kind of invalidates itself as just being a second letter by a fan that has already sent in a letter.


So, if anyone wishes to join me in trying to get the Draco arc retcon retconned, we can nosh here.

I thought we could start by deciding on the main points we wish to include in our letters, and the date we will send them.

For me, somehow de-legitimitizing Azazel and restoring Erik Wagner as Kurt's dad, is the main issue here. Also, Kurt should not be a demon or son of a demon. I prefer his dad to be a normal human being, and also German, as it gives Kurt his ethnic charm. :naughty

I also thought, perhaps we could send them, en masse, on Nightcrawler's birthday, which I believe is in November sometime, correct?

Oh yes! I nearly forgot. We now have an acronym. I came up with it all by myself. :D B.A.A.D.D. which stands for: Bamfers Against Azazel Demon Dad.

First meeting, whenever you show up.






[Edited on 21/8/09 by neling4]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Elfdame » Thu Aug 20, 2009 7:31 pm

I don't follow the comics a lot, but in that big special issue based on the Inferno, the docs said he was human. I'd like to make that point. I remember hearing that Azzy said he was a mutant himself -- but am too lazy to do a Search through recent posts here. If so, this demon talk needs to halt!

Also, many here have said in various posts (which I could, ahem, quote, or better yet phrase in my own words) that as readers we prefer Nightcrawler to be one of us: a human. The whole X-man, mutant point is that we are all human under our skin, be it toasty brown or fuzzy blue.

Something along those lines.

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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby LIV4TheObsession » Fri Aug 21, 2009 1:28 pm

I'm all up for it. But I think we should have a certaint amount of people signed on for it before anyone sends anything.
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Fri Aug 21, 2009 4:12 pm

That's why I started this thread. I am trying to round up all Bamfers here, and on the Marvel forums, who are interested in retconning the Draco retcon.

Welcome to B.A.A.D.D., LIV4TheObsession. :)
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby LIV4TheObsession » Fri Aug 21, 2009 9:54 pm

Sweet! I'll do what I can!
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Nandireya » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:05 pm

Yes...Doctor Strange DID confirm Kurt to be human, via the all-seeing Eye of Agamotto...and even said he assumed him to be a human/demon hybrid simply by his appearance before that (X-Men Annual #4 - 'Nightcrawler's Inferno' (1980), page 6).

And to quote Azzy: "I am an advanced human. A "mutant from Biblical times," as you say." (Uncanny X-Men #433 - 'The Draco - Part V of VI', (2003), page 10). So the man himself admitted that he wasn't a demon. Also, on page 19 of the same issue he says: "It is our divine mutant gift..." confirming the fact that he is, indeed a mutant.

So there's print evidence to halt all this 'half-demon' crap even if we can't do anything else.
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby LIV4TheObsession » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:38 pm

The half-demon part really isn't even the worst thing that's been happening with him though. Even with that aside, they're totally warped his personality!
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Nandireya » Fri Aug 21, 2009 11:55 pm

I can't remember the last time I actually read an X-Men comic...I think it was the one when they went back in time and that doctor guy helped deliver himself...there's been too much Emma (I REALLY don't like her...or how much she's become so ingrained in every single aspect (and series) of the team)...or crossing over into books I have no intention of buying so therefore not making any sense...and an almost complete absence of Kurt...so I really don't know how much they're butchering his character because I haven't been reading it.
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Wish-I-Had-A-Tail » Sat Aug 22, 2009 1:29 am

Yes, they did mention in the draco arc that Azazel is a 'mutant from biblical times', not a demon. So he's not a half-demon after all. But where was Erik Wagner mentioned as his dad? I never actually saw him in comics but now im interested, could someone tell me the issues>
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby LIV4TheObsession » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:15 pm

Nandireya wrote:I can't remember the last time I actually read an X-Men comic...I think it was the one when they went back in time and that doctor guy helped deliver himself...there's been too much Emma (I REALLY don't like her...or how much she's become so ingrained in every single aspect (and series) of the team)...or crossing over into books I have no intention of buying so therefore not making any sense...and an almost complete absence of Kurt...so I really don't know how much they're butchering his character because I haven't been reading it.


I agree! There's been waaaaay too much Frost lately. I almost wish we had Jean instead. (Almost)
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Jeremus » Sat Aug 22, 2009 3:51 pm

I'm in!:D
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 8:39 pm

Yay! Jeremus is here too! :bamf

Welcome also to B.A.A.D.D. to Nandireya and Wish-I-Had-A-Tail! :bamf

I latched onto the Draco/Azazel event because it goes to the core of who Kurt is. I thought it was a good place to start in changing Kurt back to what he once was. Erik Wagner was almost a non-entity, nonetheless, there was potential there to flesh him out and he was not the drag on Kurt's personality that Azazel is.

Wish-I-Had-A-Tail, when I get the time I will try to find out if Erik was ever mentioned in the books. It's been a year or so since I read my entire collection and I don't remember if he was. He was, however, mentioned in several Marvel Universe issues:

http://www.the-nightcrawler.net/images/ ... =1&pos=103

http://www.the-nightcrawler.net/images/ ... =1&pos=109

http://www.the-nightcrawler.net/images/ ... =6&pos=214

Frankly, I don't care if Azazel is a demon, or not. I just want him gone. :mad




[Edited on 22/8/09 by neling4]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Elfdame » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:22 pm

Wish I could remember ... need to check out that Essential volume from library again ... but one time early on, Kurt was climbing in through a window and mentioned something about how "the Wagners were always normal before me" or something like that, in effect making the reader assume that Kurt came from a "regular" family. (not that I'm against the whole Margali/circus upbringing; one could easily write both as true) Thatring a bell with any of you experts?
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:35 pm

Yes, I remember that, but I can't think, off the top of my head, which issue it was.

I also seem to remember Kurt saying something about his father being a doctor???

[Edited on 22/8/09 by neling4]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:24 am

ALL RIGHT!!!! Sign me up for BAADD, people, I am all the way there!

Just tell me what to say and point me in the right direction!
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Right across the lane from the demon and just down the wall from Wolverine.


RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Angelique » Sun Aug 23, 2009 8:43 pm

Unfortunately, the Draco Arc is among the least of my concerns regarding the direction Uncanny has taken in general as well as specifically regarding the treatment of Nightcrawler as a character. I've already written Isaac Perlmutter about my reasons for dropping Uncanny, chief among them that it's so bogged down in sex, violence, and Scott and Emma, that it hardly qualifies as a superhero comic anymore. (Superhero meaning super powered beings who behave heroically as opposed to like whiny, arrogant brats, and comics meaning fun!)
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 3:29 pm

Dedicatedfollower467 wrote:ALL RIGHT!!!! Sign me up for BAADD, people, I am all the way there!

Just tell me what to say and point me in the right direction!


Welcome to the B.A.A.D.D. headquarters, Dedicatedfollower467! :)

All we really need to do is come to an agreement what we want to have changed, write the letters, and send them en-masse to Marvel.

My goals are stated in the first post of this thread. See above ^

Angelique, I hope you will join our campaign. I also have not been happy with the general direction Marvel has taken in regards to the MU, however, I thought this was a good place to begin.

FYI, I chose to focus on the Draco/Azazel Demon dad because:

#1. The effects of having a "Demon Dad" is what annoys me the most of the changes in the character of Kurt Wagner.

#2. It seemed like a good place to begin.

I am not as articulate as some here, however, I will try to explain why I so dislike Azazel as Kurt's dad.

When Kurt's demon-like appearance was the result of mere X-gene mutation, it was a heart-rending deformity. Kurt's acceptance of himself and his struggle to be accepted by those who feared him merely because of his looks, was admirable. Making him the son of a demon, or even the son of an ancient mutant who just looked like a demon, cheapened his struggle, IMHO.

Also, with Azazel, the whole German ethnic thing was lost. Who can identify with an ancient mutant demon? There are few enough non-American characters in the MU as it is, and only one or two German characters. Who are those of us with German heritage going to identify with now? Baron Zemo? :? or.......the Red Skull? :X

Besides, they're villains.



[Edited on 26/8/09 by neling4]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby BanditGuru » Wed Aug 26, 2009 6:02 pm

B.A.A.D.D. Agent BanditGuru reporting for duty.:evil
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby neling4 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 7:30 pm

:bamf

Welcome Agent Bandit! I'm glad you made it. :)

Check out all the nifty smilies they have here.

Do you think we can convince nitecrala to join too?

Btw Bandit, Love of Bob is our lint, and Angelique is our ZeitgeistV, and Jeremus is here too, so you already know some posters here. :)



[Edited on 26/8/09 by neling4]
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Postby BanditGuru » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:05 pm

:LOL these smileys are great! :D

Hi to the posters who know me, and nice to meet you to the ones that don't.

I don't see why Nitecrala wouldn't join. It's definitely for a just and noble cause.
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Postby Angelique » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:26 pm

I'll join on one condition. The retcon has to be better than the first retcon, and part of our petition has to require writers and editors to actually do sufficient research so we have no more flagrant gaffes like Nightcrawler being ordained a priest after 6 months study, Nightcrawler being raised by Gypsies yet never speaking Romany, Nightcrawler being this devout Catholic who gets very non-Catholic with his foster sister, Nightcrawler having problems with the theory of evolution, Nightcrawler being retconned out of the priesthood in a story suggesting that Catholics believe in the Left Behind stories, Nightcrawler's origin and the cause of his mutation explained away in a manner that only created more confusion about his origin (and flies in the face of the rest of the Marvel universe, where demons and angels are demons and angels, not mutants who happen to have tails or wings), and then all that made worse when writers don't read the very book and don't know the history of the very character they write.

In other words, I'd be happy if no writer ever refers to Nightcrawler as half-demon or son of a demon, and if nobody ever mentions the whole priesthood thing ever again. I'm not even sure I want a retcon of the whole Amanda relationship because to retcon it would be to dredge it up.
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Postby neling4 » Wed Aug 26, 2009 8:50 pm

I'm not sure if the Draco arc bothers nitecrala as much as it does us, Bandit. :(

I did ask him. We'll see. Cross your fingers.

Angelique, it's not actually a petition, it is more of a letter writing campaign. See my first post. The quote is from one of the Marvel administrators.

So, that means you can suggest and request whatever you like in your letter. Although, it probably would be better if our letters didn't go all over the board with our requests, if we wish to be effective. Which is why we need to co-ordinate our letters. We should keep it simple, short, and to the point with what we would like to see happen, and most important of all, we should do it politely!

I certainly have no problem with any of the things you mentioned.



[Edited on 26/8/09 by neling4]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Elfdame » Thu Aug 27, 2009 5:10 pm

I agree with a number of Ang's points, but think she expressed the BAAADD dilemma best this way:

Angelique wrote:Nightcrawler's origin and the cause of his mutation [should not have been] explained away in a manner that only created more confusion about his origin (and flies in the face of the rest of the Marvel universe, where demons and angels are demons and angels, not mutants who happen to have tails or wings), and then all that made worse when writers don't read the very book and don't know the history of the very character they write.

In other words, I'd be happy if no writer ever refers to Nightcrawler as half-demon or son of a demon...


Even without all the egregious religious misinformation on which the series was apparently based (I haven't read the Austen period that I know of, lucky me!), to un-demonize our favorite Elf wouild go a long way toward restoring him as "one of us, with a difference," which is what many mythologies need to be effective. If I, with my lack of knowledge of things X-mennish, could quote a couple of issues which backed up Nightcrawler's full humanity, why on earth did they think it would be fun to twiddle with it?
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Jeremus » Fri Aug 28, 2009 4:38 pm

neling4 wrote:When Kurt's demon-like appearance was the result of mere X-gene mutation, it was a heart-rending deformity. Kurt's acceptance of himself and his struggle to be accepted by those who feared him merely because of his looks, was admirable. Making him the son of a demon, or even the son of an ancient mutant who just looked like a demon, cheapened his strugle, IMHO.


I think it cheapens the writers/writing....but I agree with you. Nightcrawler's appearance was to me a symbol of the entire mutant struggle---he looked like the epitome of the worst kind of monster, but inside he was nothing like that. Human beings all over the world treat each other like crap based on race, religion, gender, etc. Xmen is a metaphor for reality. It's also a metaphor for doing good in the face of evil even if that evil is directed at you...ie: I choose to keep my civilized humanity even when others are dismissing it or trying to take it away from me.
Then to take a fully human man and say because he looks like a demon, he must be related to one....or have something to do with the supernatural....it kills the metaphor. IMO, it flies in the face of the whole idea of the Xmen. It justifies the ignorant mobs who refuse to accept the mutants' humanity regardless of how they may look.

And (since I haven't figured out yet how to quote two people in the same post) I agree completely with the quote from Angelique that Elfdame posted.:D

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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To Retcon the Draco Arc...

Postby Wish-I-Had-A-Tail » Sun Aug 30, 2009 12:00 am

neling4 wrote:[rquote=33692434&tid=12254&

When Kurt's demon-like appearance was the result of mere X-gene mutation, it was a heart-rending deformity. Kurt's acceptance of himself and his struggle to be accepted by those who feared him merely because of his looks, was admirable. Making him the son of a demon, or even the son of an ancient mutant who just looked like a demon, cheapened his struggle, IMHO.




[Edited on 26/8/09 by neling4]


I AGREE COMPLETELY :D
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