How should nightcrawler return?

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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by neling4 » Sat May 08, 2010 3:31 pm

Angelique wrote:Drastic, your definition of faith is far too narrow. Faith validated and confirmred with knowledge is not destroyed, but strengthened. Faith is also not just belief. It's trust and confidence, which are not to be given out blindly.

Which is why Nightcrawler saying he believed in Hope was, in my opinion, extremely hokey. God's done more to earn that trust and confidence than this kid ever had.

[Edited on 8/5/2010 by Angelique]
I am glad you said that Angelique. I have thought that as well. Kurt questioned the importance of Hope before they left on the mission, and quite rightly so. There is no evidence whatsoever that she is going to perform any miracles, like raise the dead or part the seas.

Are the writers suggesting that Hope is the Second Coming of Christ?



[Edited on 8/5/10 by neling4]
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Post by Angelique » Sat May 08, 2010 4:28 pm

How about this? After a long bout of strep throat, Wanda Maximoff's fever finally breaks.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Jeremus » Sat May 08, 2010 6:37 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:So you'd rather Kurt allow his friend to kill Scott, thus throwing away everything his character is about and the one difference between he and them that defines him as an Ideal X-Man. You would prefer this, over letting him stay dead? It was funny until it started to feel like people are actually running with this.

I can't believe this. I think some of you are just really angry still. Yeah, Scott should get sucker punched for it. yes he's a snot nosed, snide, Generalissimo, and Logan should be the one to knock him the f*ck out. But...
For Kurt to come back just to allow logan to execute Scott? Not good enough for me. Humorous, but not a legit plot for his return.

Seriously?
Of course, I wouldn't really want Scott to die! I wouldn't think Kurt would approve at all and I wouldn't want to do that to his fans.
I was trying to make a point that everyone is looking to Hope for the future without even considering the fact that everyone influences the future-- and that maybe it isn't Hope who might screw everything up. Maybe it's Scott, or Storm, or anyone. Putting all your faith in one person can make you forget that there are others who have the power to change the future for the better or for the worse.
(In my little scenario, that may not have even been the real Scott.)

I was ticked off when I wrote it and I was trying to make a point. But no, I wouldn't want Scott to die anymore than I wanted Kurt to die. That would be inconsistant with the Xmen's and Kurt's values.


(It was just a stupid story.)







[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]

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Post by Angelique » Sat May 08, 2010 8:49 pm

Far healthier, IMO, to lash out at a fictional character like that than at any real people.
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Post by B A M F ! » Sat May 08, 2010 9:11 pm

Wow.....powerful, powerful stuff! Some excellent points and counter points made on the quite often touchy subject of Kurt's Faith and Religion. For a few days now i've been sorta lurking/surfing/posting on a number of other boards and forums to kinda get an overall feel for fandoms' reaction to Marvel's decision to kill off Kurt. ( :mad ) Portions of one post in particular over @ the CBR X-boards by a poster named THE SWORD IS DRAWN really struck a chord with me. Forgive me for my laziness guys but i'm gonna copy-and-paste a few pieces of what he wrote...


"Up until 1998 Nightcrawler was a strong, confident leader figure, who had worked his way up to running an International team. And running it well, too. He still had his faith, sure, but he was - as always - a swashbuckling, womanizing, fun guy to read. His Christian beliefs were there, but not in such a lazy way as to have the character be defined by them."

also...

"The thing is, that kind of Nightcrawler is interesting to read. That kind of Nightcrawler fully acknowledges 10 years of character development, and doesn't reset his skills and personality back to where he was in 1982. That kind of Nightcrawler would be a credit to any team he was placed on.
But it's not the Nightcrawler we've been offered in the X-Books for the past 11+ years. He's not been used a lot during that time, admittedly. But when he has he's been seriously downgraded in terms of personality, ability and personal strength of character.
I remember reading Matt Fraction's first use of Nightcrawler in one of the many anthology series books Marvel have put out in recent years. He was tracking down Scalphunter after Messiah Complex. Only in this story Fraction wrote him as (almost) an evangelical priest, complete with cod rhetoric and a very two-dimensional handle on the character.
When I heard that Fraction had plans to use him in his Uncanny run, to be honest, I groaned. Letting Christianity define Kurt a the prime example lazy writing. Nightcrawler is a far more complex character than that, but if you limit him by going down that road you cut off almost all of the other avenues which make the character compelling to read. Effectively you're only doing one thing.

Making him expendable.

What narks me the most, though, is that Peter David has requested Nightcrawler for X-Factor in recent years. Dan Slott wanted him for Mighty Avengers line-up. Both were told no. Because there were plans for him.
If these were the plan in question - well, what a huge waste."



EXCELLENT post by THE SWORD IS DRAWN and astute observations.
Of course there were a few points here and there that I disagreed with...in particular that there HAVE actually been a few times post-1998 where I feel that justice was done to Kurt. Where it actually felt like YES this is the same Nightcrawler I was reading about during the peak of his days as leader of Excalibur. Prime example, Kurt's characterization during the X-Men's X.S.E. period...no big surprise when you consider that the original Excalibur creative team of ALAN DAVIS and CHRIS CLAREMONT were on Uncanny at the time.

Sad to say though that I have scant faith in the "House Of Ideas" to bring back anything close to resembling the Kurt Wagner that I know and love when he's (hopefully) inevitably brought back.
I DO NOT wanna see this used as a vehicle to eliminate his Faith or seen as a way to make him a fully "demonic" character in substance as well as appearance. And i've got a sinking, sinister feeling that the same powers-that-be behind the infamous "Mephisto-Retcon" of Spider-Man's marraige to MJ will be leaning that way when it comes time to return Nightcrawler to the land-of-the-living... :(!




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Post by neling4 » Sat May 08, 2010 9:40 pm

defconfour wrote:Well it is nice to see everyone chattering away about the Elf dying the way he did. Nightcrawler had to die, to keep the plot of 2nd Coming going. You have to see the gravity of the whole picture, and his death shows how dark things are. 200 mutants left and dropping fast. Scott has his wet team taking out targets he deems as a threat. Kurt has an objection, for very good reasons. You can call it faith, and that is fine. You could also just chalk it up to the ethics that Prof X tried to instill in every X-Man/Woman he came in contact with. Religious tones, as a long time comic book reader, only makes things even more tense. Drama comes from a sense of tension, and religious strife always helps in that matter. Kurt had to die. The dying isn't gonna stop with him either.

Meanwhile, Marvel has all of our money. My friend was correct that this was, in part, a business decision. It was a very smart decision.

So while I enjoy reading what is being said, things like religion shouldn't be overlooked as a possible vehicle to get a storyline from point A to point B. Kurt looking at Scott and saying are you ordering these x-men to kill our enemy targets. It was a really important point leading up to his death. The tension builds because of Kurt's moral compass. It just so happened that he was catholic.

All I gotta say it that I am totally glued to 2nd Coming and I boy my boy Cable makes it out alive. I don't know how that will possibly play out at all.

What is keeping Wolverine from snapping?
Where is Prof X?
Is Magneto playing all of us?

So many questions.....and here I wait like a mental patient for the next issue.......
Come back after Cable dies and listen to us tell you that "He had to die, to keep the plot going."

I'm sorry, but that is just really insensitive...and untrue. Have you even considered that if the plot is so weak it needs multiple shock deaths to keep it going, then maybe it isn't a good story?





[Edited on 8/5/10 by neling4]
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Post by Angelique » Sat May 08, 2010 9:51 pm

Ugh. I wouldn't agree with calling Kurt a womanizer, as that word is too close in meaning to misogynist. Kurt at his best and even his worst adores women, flirts with them, but does not use them.

But onto the main point, I fear that Marvel is heading in the direction of killing off the X-books by sacrificing the most moral characters to challenge Cyclops on his bad decisions, making Cyclops supreme leader of the mutant race and turning him completely against the ideals that set the X-Men apart from and in opposition to every mutant terrorist organization, and then, for no apparent reason, after all this damage, bringing in non-mutant superheroes as if the X-Men under Cyke's leadership haven't done some very bad things and mutant/non-mutant relations are all hunky dory.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by kladyelf » Sun May 09, 2010 4:18 am

... Dan Slott wanted him for Mighty Avengers line-up. ...
Ohhh,

*wibble*

:bawl

I would have LOVED to have Nightcrawler as an Avenger, that would have really fit in with his character and would have brought a whole lot of fun into the series! You could have had him and Spiderman (married to MJ dag-nabbit!) trying to outdo each other with funny quips (one of the things that got me into comics in the first place was that Spidey was *funny*)

Oh, and the costumes, the costumes for an Avenger!Nightcrawler would have been *fun* darnit.

Any ficcers out there want to write him in? :ooh:

Comics should be fun, otherwise it just becomes one more thing to stress about.

OK guys and gals i've figured it out:

Nightcrawler gets rezzed by Wanda, the cosmic cube and Jean in an incident involving hay fever, "Pirates of the Carribean," 12 pounds of lilac shampoo and a ceramic teapot, is mildy bemused by the whole way things turned out and decides to join the Avengers for a change of pace.

*cough and falls for a visiting Australian cough* :D :LOL
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun May 09, 2010 4:20 am

I could try it, Klady.
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Post by Diablo » Sun May 09, 2010 10:24 am

To BAMF ! :
I don't know this "Sword is drawn" guy, but I totally agree with him. ^^
The first Fraction story got me worried the same way.

Peter David or Dan Slott's Nightcrawler could have been HUGE !
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun May 09, 2010 10:32 am

Diablo wrote: Peter David or Dan Slott's Nightcrawler could have been HUGE !
Agreed. They are both really good, fun writers.

I haven't been this excited about comics for ages. Wee!
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Sun May 09, 2010 10:44 am

Angelique wrote:Drastic, your definition of faith is far too narrow. Faith validated and confirmred with knowledge is not destroyed, but strengthened. Faith is also not just belief. It's trust and confidence, which are not to be given out blindly.
I don't think I said anything about validating his faith. I said he would know, and what he would know... who knows.

The most likely scenario in my mind of what he would know is exactly nothing. He closed his eyes with an arm fused in his chest and then opened them again back in the land of the living some time later. But, wasn't there some place he was supposed to go?? Second most likely, he is explicitly rejected from Heaven due to being (half) a demon. I suppose that second option is a validation of faith. Sort of. God is real, hooray!
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Sun May 09, 2010 11:07 am

I suppose that second option is a validation of faith. Sort of. God is real, hooray!
*snort*

Coming back as a tested man of faith of fine, but I'd rather see more.
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Post by Wahnsinn » Sun May 09, 2010 11:58 am

"His Christian beliefs were there, but not in such a lazy way as to have the character be defined by them." <<== This.

I'd like to see Kurt that way again. Lately, when he's stepped out of the wallpaper, he's been praying, talking about his chapel, using his powers like he's a novice, being upstaged by Pixie, or getting stabbed in the chest. In Second Coming, he prayed and got stabbed in the chest. In X-Infernus, he got stabbed in the chest by Pixie. Didn't he get stabbed in the chest in the Sisterhood arc as well? The stabbing's been a running theme. :shifty

I'm really still hoping for something to come of Bastion's regenerated arm having Kurt's hand. Even if they don't completely rezz him right away, he could still end up the ultimate hero of the story by beating Bastion from the inside. It'd be a much better sendoff than the Uncanny funeral issue, anyway.

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Mon May 10, 2010 8:52 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
I suppose that second option is a validation of faith. Sort of. God is real, hooray!
*snort*

Coming back as a tested man of faith of fine, but I'd rather see more.
Tested and found wanting for not being a man, you mean! I can't imagine his reaction to finding that God is real but doesn't want him would be too positive.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Mon May 10, 2010 2:28 pm

You know it would come out as
"It's not your time! I have more plans for you! You must continue your work! You have so much more life left to live! So much more good to do! You must always place your faith that all people are innately good! Kal-El, you are my son!" Whoops, got carried away there, sorry.

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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Mon May 10, 2010 9:16 pm

Getting "kicked out" of heaven for being a demon would just make me mad, frankly.

And I think what Angelique was saying was that faith - even now today - is already knowing. That faith can be validated and confirmed in this life, before we even get to the next. Many Christians believe that they have already had their faith validated, without dying or having near-death experiences.

You can still write a religious character who doesn't have to be in-your-face about it. Okay, so the original Nightcrawler wasn't Catholic. Magneto wasn't originally Jewish or a Holocaust survivor. Beast wasn't originally fuzzy. Angel couldn't originally transform into a blue guy with metal wings. Many iconic characters change throughout the story, especially when it spans decades, like X-Men does. There will be a lot of fans who get mad about it, but there will also be a lot of fans who like it. So it's possible that Marvel will "change him back" as it were, to being a non-religious character, although I personally wouldn't like that very much.

Someone pointed out that we'd have Daredevil as a Catholic character in comics. Daredevil is a great character, but his Catholicism is frighteningly cliche. He has a lot of "burdens" and a lot of the stereotypical Catholic guilt. Nightcrawler was different in that, when well-written, he didn't have any of that. He was funny, upbeat, and heroic, while also having faith. The two weren't mutually exclusive.

Frankly, I will be mad if they choose to "do away with" his religion. If he had never had a religion, I would be okay with that. If he had never changed away from Dave's original vision, I would probably have been okay with the character.

If he had never been Catholic, I would never have read a single comic book.

Frankly, I was interested in Nightcrawler because I believed at one time that there weren't any religious characters in comics. A friend of mine pointed out Nightcrawler, and I was suddenly stunned and delighted to find him, before I even knew anything about his character. The simple fact that there was a Christian in comics got me started reading them. My new interest in comics brought me into a deeper relationship with the person who introduced me, and now I consider him one of my closest friends. Nightcrawler being Catholic truly changed my life, because he interested me in comics and that led to a deeper friendship. A lot of joy would have been missing from my life without Nightcrawler.

To get back on topic - I really do like the idea of his DNA or "essence" or what-have-you being trapped inside Bastion's body and eventually beating him from the inside out. That's a creative idea that validates his heroism without fundamentally changing the character. I would love that story, I would read that story, and I would actually buy the whole Second Coming arc (despite the apparently poor writing) if it ended that way. It's a very interesting and exciting story, and if nobody else wants to, I think I'll write that fanfic.
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Post by Angelique » Mon May 10, 2010 10:30 pm

I would read that, too, on the condition that Marvel take the rumored DC pledge, and not do cheap deaths and "resurrections" ever again.

Except for Jean. Phoenixes can come back as often as they want.
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Post by Bamfing_Bob » Tue May 11, 2010 2:13 am

screw getting kicked out of heaven... I believe God should use him for a divine errand and Nightcrawler makes a deal with God for the greater good of mankind. Remember the future Mephisto shows Nighty in the last issue of his solo series... just saying...
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue May 11, 2010 3:19 am

Okay, I've been mulling this over 'cause I feel this debate is completely derailing the entire purpose of both the thread and the forum. We're using Kurt's death to argue religion, and that's pointless, we have a debate room for that.

Firstly:
Frankly, I will be mad if they choose to "do away with" his religion. If he had never had a religion, I would be okay with that. If he had never changed away from Dave's original vision, I would probably have been okay with the character.

If he had never been Catholic, I would never have read a single comic book.
Everything you just said is wrong, but not because you're wrong, but because your information is. Kurt was faithful and grateful to the church, and a believer in God, but Dave never confirmed any sect of religion, and he has, since the character moved out of the Late-Great-Dave's hands, changed DRASTICALLY in how he emphasizes/practices his faith. And I mean drastically. Read Dave's thread in "Cockrum's Corner" (or perhaps in this very subforum, I forget) about how Nightcrawler was CONCEIVED, and his original purpose. It's from the creator himself. so you can't second guess it or factcheck it with some nerd's opinion from Wikipedia.

Look, to summarize my perspective on all of this, I look to what Paty said earlier:
Dave and Chris "killed" Thunderbird for a reason... not a marketing ploy. Having established a Native American hero, and a specific tribe, at that, they both found they didn't have any reference... GOOD reference...for the tribal customs, religion and such of the character. Remember, this was back in the dark ages before computers... or, at least, when computers were just being built and were taking up whole floors in large buildings! They didn't want to do him wrong...or portray bogus white man's versions of NA culture...so they took him out as a hero...
Like I was saying earlier, computers and wikipedia even included in this argument, Kurt comes with baggage. As did Thunderbird. There is a fanbase, and a culture, that is not worth offending. They can either keep botching up Catholic rites and rituals (such as the way they botched up the funeral, or his prayers,...etc...) or they can take him out for awhile, let everyone miss him, want him, need his familiarity and characteristics back, miss and pine for him, read his "good 'ole days" comics and demand he return and then,...

AND THEN!!!

HUZZAH!
:engarde :tail :bamf :arr He's BACK! And this time he's not less of a Christian, or less of a faithful man, or any less of an X-Man, but there's less baggage and less chance of offending anyone, which is something Marvel probably feels they can't afford right now.

It does make sense. It is UNFAIR that it makes sense, it's unfair that they let Kurt get to this point, and it sucks how they used his funeral and the excuse they killed him for (don't get me wrong he died valiantly, but in vain, or so I feel, being the story is a bust.)

But he WILL return, and he'll be better and bluer and fuzzier and happier than ever! Cross my poorly formed heart!!

[Edited on 11/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by Angelique » Tue May 11, 2010 4:22 am

Oh, for pete's sake. Even back in the '70's, there were probably more resources readily available in the local library on Catholicism than there were on Apache culture, and as Catholics haven't been run off our lands (at least not in the US) and onto some rez, it's not like anyone would have to travel far to meet one. So, in other words, the writers who keep botching Catholicism really don't have any excuse. It's simply lazy writing- especially nowadays.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:26 am

Lazy writing < Money/revenue/ratings/income.

That's what this decision was about. Keeping X-Readers tense and interested. Losing a few hundred Kurt fans (at best) is not their biggest loss.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Angelique » Tue May 11, 2010 4:33 am

I think you meant the opposite by that equation, otherwise I'd agree.

But if I'm correct as to what you've meant, that's a very negative statement about most, if not all, comic book readers- that we'll by and large shell out more money for lazy writing.

Besides, in this economy and with comic sales being what they are, Marvel shouldn't be so casual about losing any readers.

And with this supposed interest in bringing in more female readers, that's another reason why offing Nightcrawler was a horrific idea. They've just killed off probably the second or third most popular male character among women.

Furthermore, in killing him off, as long as he's OOC, they can't use an otherwise very viable and marketable property.

If this is all about money, they've still botched it big time. If reports from my local comic retailer hold true, sales have dropped since Kurt died.

[Edited on 11/5/2010 by Angelique]
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:35 am

I'm not saying that's the readers perspective, I'm saying that's how the editors feel.

Whether we buy into it is in the sales.

And clearly, with the obnoxious success this story has had, the sales say differently than how we at 'Scrawlers feel.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:36 am

Is it just me, or are most of us kind of saying similar things in different ways?

And yes, it's all a marketing ploy. It's a very badly done marketing ploy at that.

But "we" are willing to shell out the money, because it's comics. Because they hold all the cards and they hold our entertainment.

Sometimes it's like a threat.

So I'm giving em my threat:

You don't get any money from me anymore.
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RIP Kurt Wagner. You were the character who brought in me into comics, who introduced me and inspired me. Now your death has sent me away again. Wherever you are in the Marvel Universe, I hope its someplace pleasant.

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