How should nightcrawler return?

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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Angelique » Tue May 11, 2010 4:46 am

Ult, sales of Uncanny dropped. This is not exactly obnoxious success, especially for the supposed flagship title, and it signals a (drum roll please...) loss of interest. And since Uncanny 524 was so widely regarded as a terrible issue, it remains to be seen if interest in the series will rebound. Somehow I doubt it.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Wahnsinn » Tue May 11, 2010 7:58 am

Dedicatedfollower467 wrote:Is it just me, or are most of us kind of saying similar things in different ways?
It's not just you. ;)


On Sales
Sales on Uncanny had been steadily dropping before SC started. I think it's a combination of people getting tired of the constant focus on an out-of-character Scott and Emma, Greg Land being one half of the rotating art team, the economic downturn, overlapping events, and the rising cost of comics. It's rather insane of Marvel to have events going on in almost every line while raising prices and publishing more titles in each line. Salaries/allowances aren't rising with inflation. Since it's become so expensive to try to keep up with more than one event at a time, those who would have bought them all in the past are dropping the titles that tie into the event(s) they've chosen not to buy or the titles that aren't at the top of their reading lists.

On Religion
I have a hard time wrapping my head around the concept of religion being so important to a person that it's the sole reason they want to read about a character. It especially baffles me when the person belongs to a very popular religion. I can barely find a real person who shares something resembling my beliefs and certainly don't expect to find a fictional one who does. Beyond that, it's simply not that bloody important. I am not defined by my pantheism, and I would be horribly bored with myself if I were.

I want to read about a character who makes me care, and a character that's defined by his/her religion doesn't make me care. I don't want to feel like I'm being preached at by a fictional character any more than I want to be preached at by real people. A character can be devoutly religious without being a religion first and a person last. Notwithstanding the character's religion, anyone of any persuasion can relate to a character that is a person first.

On Topic
The Scarlet Witch should talk Kurt back into existence. This is all her fault, anyway. :P

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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Nandireya » Tue May 11, 2010 10:36 am

Wait a minute! Kurt died?! I guess I should have actually been reading my comics...but they've been so uninteresting lately I've just been bagging them and putting them away.

Now there's nothing to keep my reading.

And the Turtles have finished now that they've been sold to Viacom...which leaves me with...um...

I'm not sure what that leaves me with...

I think I need to go lie down...
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Angelique » Tue May 11, 2010 2:45 pm

Sales of Uncanny have been dropping steadily, but I think this last one represents much more than just a continuation of a steady drop. Just in my LCS, I'd never seen whole stacks of a new issue left over on a Thursday.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Tue May 11, 2010 4:10 pm

My mistake on sales then, because I was told they had gone up.

Regardless, they want sales, so their actions are solely about sales, being that's all Marvel cares about.

Wahnsinn, I'm going to completely agree with you and then go a step further and simply state that my stance is slightly different, in that I don't only think Kurt's religion has become a hack-writers excuse to define him, but I think it ruined him and resulted in his end.

And as for all saying the same thing, well, I still think Kurt is not coming back for a long time. I don't see how bringing him back at, or by, the end of this arc would make any sense.

[Edited on 11/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Angelique » Tue May 11, 2010 4:33 pm

Money talks. If we don't like it, we don't buy it, and if the honchos are scratching their heads as to why comic sales are suffering, it would help if we tell them exactly why. The truth is that we readers are partially to blame for the quality of comics. If it's garbage and we buy it anyway, that shows that the company can get away with issuing more garbage.

This is precisely why I'm not buying any canon X-books and probably won't even if they do bring Nightcrawler back. It has to be plausible within the parameters of the genre and do absolutely no damage to the character- in other words, be the best "resurrection" Marvel's staged since Jean first came back as Phoenix- to get me to even consider picking them up again.

I don't think I'm asking much. If we state from the outset that we have high expectations, maybe more effort will be made by marvel to meet those.

I do like the scenario of Wanda waking up from a long bout with a fever and finding everything that happened from Avengers Disassembled on was all a hallucination.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Elfdame » Tue May 11, 2010 5:13 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I don't see how bringing him back at, or by, the end of this arc would make any sense.
Um, kinda the way having him "quit" and go to Winzeldorf to solve a crisis and kiss a fangirl and then suddenly decide he needed to "unquit."

Yeah, I trust the Marvel guys to make it all believeable.
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Post by neling4 » Tue May 11, 2010 5:17 pm

I hope this is the new Writer's Challenge. I have an idea to bring him back, and I want to use it.
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Post by Elfdame » Tue May 11, 2010 5:25 pm

So, Rowena, if you're perusing this thread, would it be (a) Nightcrawler vs. Bastion, with no death, or (b) bringing Kurt back?

And I want more people to enter THIS current challenge, because it's such a lovely idea! How appropriate to write/draw what we love best about The Fuzzy Elf!

Over a month left, peeps. Have at it.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 13, 2010 5:00 am

[[trying to keep the argument that's in this thread from spreading over to others. I'm not a mod, but I did create the Second Coming Thread, and I'd like at least one of my threads about comics to stay slightly on target.]]
And of course it begs these two questions: When did Bobby go from not practicing any religion to suddenly Methodist, and when did Bobby give a rat's rear about Nightcrawler?

I feel he was shoehorned in just to give Iceman a token appearance.
I don't see what's so bad about an X-Man saying nice words about a fellow X-Man.

And I especially don't see what's so bad about Bobby saying nice things about Kurt, being Kurt was a great friend to EVERYONE, and I can't imagine there's a single person he didn't get a long with. If you can be Logan's BFFL, you can be anyone's. IMO.

Also, who said he never practiced any religion? Why is it that the only people who practice religion in Marvel U are Daredevil, Kurt, and select few others (Dust, etc) but everyone else must be some kind of atheist or agnostic.

Again, the religion has been used to define the character. And even more to the point,
who really cares???

I'll be honest, because I've wanted to be for awhile, and I think one of my better traits is my candid knack for honesty, I don't care. I didn't care, and I certainly wouldn't have cared MORE if they used a priest.
And I know for a fact I'm not the only one, and I know for an absolute fact that the number of people who DON'T care far-out-weigh the number of people who actually do care about giving Kurt a "Catholic Funeral".

Yeah, the Morgue would've made most sense, but they wanted to have some story, Fraction likes to get high on himself and thinks he's the "teh shit" and tends to do issues just to flex his masterful storytelling. This was a clear example of that.

Re-viewing the comic (and yes, I did tell Esy I hated it), I don't totally, 100% hate this issue, and I really don't care about anything that happened to Kurt at the funeral. At all. My biggest discrepancy with the issue is Colossus and what he's doing in the beginning, Emma's flappin' mouth, and Fraction's inability to keep a story without breaking to "what's SCOTT UP TO!?".

Apparently everyone (including Fraction, possibly even Yost and the others) really believe this is Cyclops' story, it's his game, and it's his battle, and this entire arc rests on his shoulders. So.... what you're reading (if you're still reading) is the Scott-capades, really. Which is the most disappointing thing about the issue is knowing that this is indeed the direction Fraction wanted to take this mess.

However, and I am sorry if it offends, and even more sorry if it upsets, but it really, does not matter to me. I'm glad it was Bobby, and not a priest, because it would have felt disingenuous.

Also, I know Scott told all of Marvel to Butt-Out for the most part, but did you notice no one is reacting this anywhere else in Marvel-U? No one is asking "what's up with the X-Men?" No one is trying to help them? No one has stepped up to offer services of any kind?

It had to be an X-Man in terms of story, that did that funeral because let's face it, though it's a Scott-Centered Story, this is an arc about what it means to be a Mutant. What it means to be the last of the mutants, and what it means to be an X-Man. What you are willing to put your life on the line for?
And Kurt proved he is ten times the X-Man than Scott, Logan, Angel, Beast, Bobby, Storm, or so many others would ever be, (I didn't list Rogue 'cause she probably would've died then too, it was just how the dice fell that Kurt went out.) and he proved he didn't need to be a faithless, killing, war machine hell-bent on survival to do it. *cough*X-Force*Cough*

I'm sad and angry he's dead.
I'm not sad and angry that his friends regret it. Though I would like to see some more genuine reactions out of them and I feel that it is coming.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Diablo » Thu May 13, 2010 9:39 am

Nandireya wrote:Wait a minute! Kurt died?! I guess I should have actually been reading my comics...but they've been so uninteresting lately I've just been bagging them and putting them away.

Now there's nothing to keep my reading.

And the Turtles have finished now that they've been sold to Viacom...which leaves me with...um...

I'm not sure what that leaves me with...

I think I need to go lie down...
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Post by Angelique » Thu May 13, 2010 1:50 pm

So Drastic, you don't care that Kurt's supposed friends took a dump all over his religion? It's not disingenuous to have a priest officiate at a Catholic friend's funeral if you know that's what said character would have wanted. It's... thoughtful and decent. Imagine that. Non-Catholics respecting a Catholic's wishes. Happens a lot in the real world, even among people who aren't heroic in nature. That the X-Men didn't make that effort after they made no effort to revive Kurt is one of the reasons my interest in reading the X-books has been effectively killed off.

I read superhero comics for the heroes. If the surviving characters don't act like heroes, there's no point.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 13, 2010 3:12 pm

That the X-Men didn't make that effort after they made no effort to revive Kurt is one of the reasons my interest in reading the X-books has been effectively killed off.
I'll definitely give you that, I thought it was very strange they didn't even really try. But that goes to show you that this entire thing was planned and they weren't about to let someone come in and bring him back. The story needed a death, one that hurt, so they chose Nightcrawler and did whatever they could to make it difficult to even save him, including standing around in horror at his body rather than acting.
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Post by Mistress_D » Fri May 14, 2010 4:13 am

I'm relying on Amanda Sefton. Limbo's the land of the dead so they're sure to meet up. Or maybe in combination with mom Margali. They're pretty powerful and have feelings for Kurt, I can't imagine they'd pass up on the opportunity to bring him back. Or it could be an interesting twist if it was Mephisto; after all, he brags how he can raise the dead... :smirk

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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Fri May 14, 2010 6:49 am

Angelique wrote:So Drastic, you don't care that Kurt's supposed friends took a dump all over his religion? It's not disingenuous to have a priest officiate at a Catholic friend's funeral if you know that's what said character would have wanted. It's... thoughtful and decent. Imagine that. Non-Catholics respecting a Catholic's wishes. Happens a lot in the real world, even among people who aren't heroic in nature.
I don't think I said anything about that? Doing the best with what you have isn't taking a dump on anything. If he never discussed the details of a Catholic funeral with them (which seems likely) they would have no idea that sticking the body in the morgue to wait for a priest is more respectful than his friends saying a few heartfelt words.

An obsession with protocol doesn't sound like Kurt at all.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:03 am

An obsession with protocol doesn't sound like Kurt at all.
Here, here. Hell, if it had been, I think Logan would've fought tooth-and-nail with Scott about it.
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 14, 2010 1:28 pm

Please. This is not an obsession with protocol. That Catholic funerals involve a priest is something even a relative of a non-practicing Catholic such as Iceman probably knew darn good and well. Otherwise, why else would Iceman admit the funeral they slapped together was not what Kurt would have wanted?

[Edited on 14/5/2010 by Angelique]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 14, 2010 6:48 pm

From the "Second Coming Thread":
Karma is too busy being defined as a practicing lesbian to be portrayed as a devout Catholic. (There are ways that handing a character who happens to be both Christian and homosexual can be done well, and I don't trust Marvel at the moment to even bother trying.)

>_> I didn't realize lesbianism or any kind of homosexuality (be it transgender or whatever) was something you keep up in practice.

Firestar in fact has her own series out, I saw Ish. 1 on the shelves yesterday. And it looks pretty bad-ass too.
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 14, 2010 7:16 pm

These threads are related. We wouldn't even be discussing whether, why, or how Nightcrawler should be brought back or his death be retconned immediatly out of happening if it wasn't for Second Coming.

Since I'm tired of everybody stealing Jean's schtick, and because Nightcrawler is bar none my all time favorite comic book character and furthermore, a character who I feel represents me best, it's very important to me that he's back in comics soon, yes. But it's even more important if it's done right... and they never pull this stunt again. Bringing him back right is the only way the books will regain my interest. If they keep him dead, I won't read. And if they bring him back, but screw up his character, the X-books won't have me back.

Furthermore, I had an ambition to write X-books that's now pretty well shot. I'm not interested in reading or writing X-Men without Nightcrawler. A superhero team without its moral compass ceases to be heroic.
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 14, 2010 7:18 pm

The Drastic Spastic wrote:
Angelique wrote:So Drastic, you don't care that Kurt's supposed friends took a dump all over his religion? It's not disingenuous to have a priest officiate at a Catholic friend's funeral if you know that's what said character would have wanted. It's... thoughtful and decent. Imagine that. Non-Catholics respecting a Catholic's wishes. Happens a lot in the real world, even among people who aren't heroic in nature.
I don't think I said anything about that? Doing the best with what you have isn't taking a dump on anything. If he never discussed the details of a Catholic funeral with them (which seems likely) they would have no idea that sticking the body in the morgue to wait for a priest is more respectful than his friends saying a few heartfelt words.

An obsession with protocol doesn't sound like Kurt at all.
Oh, and if they had the means to fly Beast in to serve as pallbearer, they could have gotten a priest from the mainland.
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:22 pm

Not without risking their entire species by informing a human on an unsecured line, yeah. Actually.

It makes total sense, Ange. It's war, that's how they had to get it done. It's not like they don't regret it, Scott did say he wanted as Catholic a service as possible.
And I didn't see Beast actually being a pallbearer, I saw Colossus, Scott, and Logan. Beast just (uncharacteristically) ran infront of Scott and yelled at him until saliva wicked Scott's cheek. That was one other issue I had with UncXM#524
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 14, 2010 7:25 pm

Pfft. They could have had anyone who came in from off the island for the funeral bring in a priest. And if security was so tight they couldn't inform anyone else, how come Mystique showed up?
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 14, 2010 7:27 pm

1) I don't see Mystique anywhere in this issue.

2) It's her son. Even if she hates the team, she always broke when it comes to Kurt. She always, always, flinches.
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 14, 2010 7:35 pm

Still, for a funeral under such tight security they couldn't even get the right person to officiate, too many guests managed to show up anyway. If Beast could have gotten there, someone could have also gotten a priest there. Where there is a will and the apparent means, there is a way. There was no evidence they even bothered trying, was there?

And I like the assumption that any or all priests in the Marvel Universe, even in San Francisco, would betray the friends of a parishioner like that.
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Post by Wahnsinn » Fri May 14, 2010 8:31 pm

Oh, for the love of pants …

It wouldn't make any kind of strategic sense to bring in a stranger for a funeral. While Scott's been plenty willing to put his own trained people in danger, he hasn't been shown as so completely devoid of scruples to put unrelated, untrained, helpless humans in danger. They wanted to say goodbye to their friend in the best way they knew how, and selfishly putting others at risk to slap together a proper Catholic funeral in less than 24 hours would have been completely irresponsible and unconscionable.

So, Kurt didn't get a Catholic funeral. Big whoop. I think he'd take the funeral his friends managed to hold over having some helpless bystander put in the crossfire. He wasn't that selfish. I also don't think he'd be angry at them for managing what they did under the circumstances. He certainly wasn't that petty.

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