How should nightcrawler return?

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Wed May 05, 2010 9:29 pm

I would <3 that to happen.

If Scott dies, it had better be at the hands of Logan.
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Post by neling4 » Wed May 05, 2010 10:40 pm

That is such a fine story, Jeremus, that I don't think I will bother to come up with an alternative.

As a friend of mine once said, "That'll work!"
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Thu May 06, 2010 12:20 am

Elfdame wrote: I know some folks who were clinically dead IRL (like that _Life After Life_ stuff) and most of them felt they had a choice to come back. None of them wanted to return to this vale of tears, but each had obligations and so zipped back into their bodies.
You need a body to come back to with this one.

Undo it through time travel? That's cheap and disgusting. I'd rather have him dead for good than continue on as he has been. There needs to be a change. Cowering in a chapel, only taking time out from his contemplation to annoy his team mates with prayer and moralizing. At least he went out a man. Death is a good direction for him, I want to see where it goes. It certainly can't get any worse.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by The Drastic Spastic » Thu May 06, 2010 12:39 am

The Scott hate is all a little weird to me. I think the character really started to change in Ultimate X-Men. That is when Cyclops got cool, and this coolness worked its way into all the other versions of his character too. I don't want him to die. There are years of quality character development there. He is smart and brave and strong. Kind of like how I always wanted Nightcrawler to be.

*gay for Cyclops*
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Wahnsinn » Thu May 06, 2010 9:32 am

I shall add to the love of Jeremus' time-travel scenario. It makes my brain giggle. :toothy

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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by kladyelf » Thu May 06, 2010 11:15 am

I don't actually hate Cyke, yeah i miss the days where he was a little goofy and people made fun of him because it was.... well, fun.

I have nothing against competent!Cyclops because a general or whatever should at least be halfway comptetent,

Mind you i've only sporadically picked up X-men because i am so fed up with the whole wretched thing.


Oh and an OT note about temporal policemen:

"can you explain to me why you were doing 80 minutes per hour in a 60 minute per hour zone ma'am?" :D :P

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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Wahnsinn » Thu May 06, 2010 4:13 pm

According to Mike Carey, there will be some kind of time weirdness going on before Second Coming ends. :shifty

From the interview on CBR:
After that, the writer returns with "Legacy" #237, which is chapter 12 of "Second Coming." It's a story that will take place both in the present and the future. "Those are kind of the main beats of those two issues, but there's a lot of cutting back and forth across all of the issues because we're dealing with a huge cast spread out across time and many different locations," Carey remarked.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 06, 2010 4:16 pm

Huh.... Alternate Kurt?
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Post by Wahnsinn » Thu May 06, 2010 5:27 pm

I'll take AoA Kurt. I loves me some AoA Kurt. Can Ken Lashley have exclusive rights to draw him, too? He doesn't have to draw the whole comic. I just want him to draw Kurt. Sexy AoA Kurt. :lick

Ahem. Aaaanyhoo …

If they really did do the unthinkable and cremate him--I haven't read the issue yet--instead of giving him an at-sea torpedo burial like that one chick, it makes it a little trickier to come up with something semi-plausible. Of course, since when did comics require plausibility in resurrections?

1. Hope, if she goes all Phoenix, could rezz him--Phoenix don't need no stinking body!--out of sheer survivor's guilt.
2. Drag in an alternate version.
3. Drag in a past version.
4. Weren't a couple of the people rezzed with the T-O virus by Selene cremated? Maybe that can somehow be used to make him a new body before purging it from the new body.
5. Phoenix or some other god-type critter poofs the world back to the way it should be. Kurt's alive.
6. Some sorcerer-type person magically creates a new body, and some psionic-type person puts Kurt in the body.
7. Same as above but a sorcerer-type person puts him in the body.
8. He is reborn and put in a pod to speed up the growth process.
9. It wasn't really Kurt that died, and he's been lost in the Brimstone--what a stupid name--dimension ever since the Draco. Some sorcerer-type person finds out, and the X-Men go on a quest to save him.
10. Hope wakes up in her bed/a hotel/a mental institution. It was all a dream/hallucination!
11. It was all a premonition by Hope/Blindfold, and steps are taken to prevent Kurt's death.

OK, I'll stop now. :D

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Post by neling4 » Thu May 06, 2010 5:40 pm

Maybe the TO virus revived him and he :bamf out of that coffin before they had a chance to roast him. The coffin was closed in all the panels. It almost looked like they were trying to cook him. :X

Perhaps when he :bamf, he somehow got stuck in the bamfing dimension. As soon as he escapes, he will be back.

No demons are involved and everyone is happy. :)
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Post by Angelique » Thu May 06, 2010 6:08 pm

Maybe Kurt regenerates out of Bastion, thereby coming back from the dead and defeating Bastion once and for all from within. Then he comes back to Utopia, where everyone is relieved to see him and begs him to take over leadership of the X-Men.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Wahnsinn » Thu May 06, 2010 7:09 pm

Angelique wrote:Maybe Kurt regenerates out of Bastion, thereby coming back from the dead and defeating Bastion once and for all from within. Then he comes back to Utopia, where everyone is relieved to see him and begs him to take over leadership of the X-Men.
Yes, please! And they should all beg his forgiveness for not doing a bloody thing to try to revive him.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 06, 2010 7:11 pm

I kind of hope he stays dead long enough to make the other X-Readers miss him, and realize why he was important.
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Post by Jeremus » Thu May 06, 2010 8:58 pm

Thanks guys! I'm glad you enjoyed my 'bring Kurt back' solution.
( I guess I had some "issues" I needed to get out.):LOL
I really don't hate Scott either (he is who he is).....I'm just p.o.ed at the whole thing.

Truthfully , I really liked Wahnsinn's scenario on the Second Coming thread....
Angelique's (above) is good too. Anything about Kurt and Bastion being connected somehow now. That'd be a good storyline.

I think anything they can do to bring him back.....even if he's more like AoA Nightcrawler for a while, angsty, full of issues and conflict.....as long as it's temporary and they make it right in the end. (Maybe he goes down the dark path and Logan is the only one who can bring him back out of it.)

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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Thu May 06, 2010 11:44 pm

Jeremus wrote: (Maybe he goes down the dark path and Logan is the only one who can bring him back out of it.)
Talk about role reversal. And oh, what a GREAT plotline!

I would be happy to see Nightcrawler to go dark and angsty if afterward we got to see this.

[Edited on 5/6/10 by Dedicatedfollower467]
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:12 am

So you'd rather Kurt allow his friend to kill Scott, thus throwing away everything his character is about and the one difference between he and them that defines him as an Ideal X-Man. You would prefer this, over letting him stay dead? It was funny until it started to feel like people are actually running with this.

I can't believe this. I think some of you are just really angry still. Yeah, Scott should get sucker punched for it. yes he's a snot nosed, snide, Generalissimo, and Logan should be the one to knock him the f*ck out. But...
For Kurt to come back just to allow logan to execute Scott? Not good enough for me. Humorous, but not a legit plot for his return. All three of them are friends. Scott and Kurt trained together, as did Logan, when they all joined the team.


Honestly, I'd rather he stay dead for a year. Or two.
Then suddenly X-Force missions start going awry. Somehow, someone is intervening, and they can't ever seem to achieve their mission's ultimatum, they never get to kill the bad guy. Somehow, one way or another, the guy is chained up or terrified before they even get there, or they rush into a building and wake up two hours later wondering what happened in the time between.

it is then revealed by someone, and who really cares who, but it'd be nice if it was Logan, that Kurt has been purposely sabotaging their missions since his soon-to-be-explained return from the grave in order to preserve Xavier's true mission in life.
Impressed, Logan backs down and leaves X-Force, in fact even changes his way. This gives way to a resurgence of Nightcrawler as a bad-ass with morales again, they can concoct a return plot that does away the burden of Religious Undertones making him a boring character, and they can even now pull away from over using Logan if he goes through a (albeit brief) stint of peace--solely based upon the return of his best and truest friend.

THAT
is how you return a character of caliber such as Nightcrawler's. You don't have him kill someone, or allow/condone the killing of someone. Dark is interesting but it's not Kurt. And it doesn't fit. And it certainly should not be the context of which to bring him back in. He willingly died.


[Edited on 7/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by Angelique » Fri May 07, 2010 12:26 am

Please keep any anti-religious agenda out of the return of the Elf.

I happen to be Catholic. I love reading books that may happen to have Catholic characters. I'm not interested in resurrecting dead non-Catholic characters and making them Catholic. Please return the favor.

The religion never made Kurt boring. It was all in how writers handled it and used it to caricaturize Kurt. If a writer can write well-rounded characters, no problem, and no reason to strip a character of any trait.

I also have no interest in killing off Cyclops, though I am slightly suprised that Wolverine hadn't killed him already. Cyke needs to be taken down several pegs and off leadership of the X-Men. That's it.

[Edited on 7/5/2010 by Angelique]
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Post by Dedicatedfollower467 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:41 am

I think most of us were just joking about the whole "Kill Cyke" thing... :D We're pretty mad at him and I for one feel he has waaaaaay too much attention these days. Almost as much as Wolverine.

And please, no anti-religious agenda. I'm not asking them to get rid of Dust's Islam or insisting that every single atheist character in X-Men "finds God." I like having a few characters who are relatable for those of us who do have a religion. I'm sure Muslims who read comics are just as excited about having Dust as the Christians are about having Kurt. There are plenty atheist/agnostic heroes out there for those who don't believe.

(I keep saying "Christian" or "religion" because I'm technically not Catholic, I'm Lutheran, but there aren't a whole lot of other blatantly Christian characters out there in the world. And I don't think there's a single Lutheran character... we're too conservative for most of the world's tastes.)

This should almost be in the Danger Room, huh? :LOL (trying to keep it light and failing....)
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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 07, 2010 12:44 am

Angelique, we may not have the same opinion about what made Kurt great, and that's fine, but you can't possibly expecto tell someone not to voice their opinion. You can disagree with it and list your points, and I will respect your religion, but I feel that the religion bogged him down and returning him as a more religious person will only result in his second death. It was how they used to characterize Kurt, but then he became a caricature and soon after that the Angry Letters flew in because not every writer is Catholic, and if he's on the team, they have to use him and it became a struggle to use him correctly and not piss off the Catholic fans.

And at no point did I say I want Kurt's religion gone. I just think they overuse it and abuse it. I think the religious undertones hover around him like flies around garbage, and it becomes hard to handle a character who can't throw a punch without regretting it... and he's a super hero.
Jeph Loeb and Kevin Smith, they write that kind of stuff. Not Fraction, Bendis, Yost, or even the great Lee.
Writing well rounded characters is fine, but in terms of super hero teams, especially one the size of X-Men, it's hard to maintain so many characters, and in crossover events you will bump into the writer whose style does not even come close to approaching religious beliefs in their characters, and they will be completely stumped on Kurt and either under use him (pissing all Kurt fans off) or misuse his religion (enraging both religious and Elf fans).

It's a win/lose. We lose Kurt, but we'll get him back as Dave imagined him. I think.

[Edited on 7/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 07, 2010 1:57 am

And you cited an example of people getting Catholicism all wrong. Catholics, while generally critical of war, are not pacifists. Kurt can throw a punch in the defense of the innocent with no regrets.

And Catholic guilt is a stereotype with next to no basis in truth, so again, Kurt could throw a punch in the fight for good and justice and all that without reservations. Or if they really have that much trouble, there isn't exactly a shortage of writers who happen to be Catholic.

What we have here is a case of lumping all Christians together, like what Austen did with that whole rapture nonsense. The Amish are Christians, and they're pacifists. Catholics are Christians too, so they must also be pacifists. Throw in that ridiculous Catholic guilt stereotype, and here we have all this angst resulting from lazy writing.

You may not have known that, but finding out isn't difficult. As I've said, it's not like Catholics are that hard to find. And failure to ask a Catholic if you need help writing a Catholic character is lazy writing.

I wrote war stories. You'd better believe I had officers in a couple branches of the military on my email list so I could ask them anything I needed to know, and I'm just a rookie in this business.
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How should nightcrawler return?

Post by neling4 » Fri May 07, 2010 2:36 am

No-one likes my idea? :(
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Post by The Drastic Spastic » Fri May 07, 2010 3:19 am

Finding out isn't difficult, but it isn't especially interesting ever. Given the choice between researching something really complicated and controversial and trying to work it into a story with a dozen other characters, or using a different character, what are most writers going to do? They have deadlines and lives.

I want the religion gone, not toned down, not minimized, GONE, and why shouldn't I say that? I'm not saying no one should be Catholic, I'm saying this character shouldn't be Catholic. It was a mistake to change the character and take him in that direction. Is it anti-religion to say that? I'm not sure actually. Certainly, the source of my disgust is not anything that was in the books. Even if they handled it "well", I would still be repulsed because it doesn't fit my idea of what the character should be like.

It may be anti-religion, but it's not like I picked a religious character just so I could complain and say he shouldn't be religious. He wasn't like that when I started reading, he shouldn't be like that now, and I can hope he won't be like that in the future.
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Post by Angelique » Fri May 07, 2010 3:40 am

And if he's not like that in the future, assuming he's ever brought back, that pretty much removes the only openly devout Catholic from the X-books.


What would you call it if people insisted the dead Northstar be brought back straight? I would not call that acceptable, but at least there's Rictor, Shatterstar, Karma, Moonstar, Anole, Wiccan (is he still alive?) etc., to appeal to the gay readership.


What do we Catholic fans have?
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Post by Trigger » Fri May 07, 2010 4:03 am

neling4 wrote:No-one likes my idea? :(
Haha. I loved your idea Neling!:D

Unfortunately controversy loves company, but to try and bring this back on track...

I think that a ton of loopholes have been left open for his come-back. Honestly though, I wouldn't mind it if he just showed up on the doorstep one day, completely confused and not remembering a thing about what happened while he was "dead." Follow that up with some awesome Kurt-kickin'-some-butt issues and I'm a happy girl.

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Post by Ult_Sm86 » Fri May 07, 2010 7:09 am

What do we Catholic fans have?

Daredevil. :daredevil

I don't see how you can compare a sexuality to a religion, especially because most people who are homosexual (dare I even say ALL) would probably be upset that you say that is how their character is defined. Not THEIR character as in their favorite Marvel U character, I mean, the very fabric of their being.

Kurt's problem is that his religion defines him now, and that's sour apples when you got a writer who needs to pen out a storyplot about Apocalypse. I mean, look at how they handled Kurt everytime :poccy comes up. If Kurt isn't a strict, near-faithless, angry sword wielding mofo, he's not even IN the story 'cause there's nothing to do with him! Having a character whose instruction manual is in a religious text is never good, despite what the Catholic fans may think. This is because, and I am trying to be as frank and polite as possible, in the long run no one cares. Not the writers.

The last guy who cared about that stuff? Chuck Austen. And it's a wonder why Kurt has been so underused since then. A character who, from a writers stand-point, comes with baggage is a character that will be less featured. Marvel recognizes the overwhelming fanbase for Kurt and cannot deny them their character.

And I think Joe Q. does have some kind of heart, even if it does resemble Stark's--and I think he does feel bad Cockrum's character, who was meant to be faithful at best, has diverted so greatly from original premise.

Nightcrawler ≠ Daredevil. We don't need a moody, angsty, X-Man, Logan's got that. We need someone to make Logan laugh, but who can still be faithful to God and thus be a good friend and worthwhile shoulder for his team mates to lean on. Why is that anti-religion to you? Why is that too much to ask? If him coming back means coming as a stronger Catholic, I won't even bother reading it.
This just means it's going to be the same old-song-and-dance. More Austen's will come, and they will continue to botch him with religious dialogue that most comic readers will be turned away from, killing our Blue Fuzzy Fanbase. I already have about 6 friends who avidly read comics who DO NOT read anything Kurt related BECAUSE of how he has been written in the last decade and it is because of that they're glad he's gone.
:/ It's hard for me to hang out with them now LOL!

[Edited on 7/5/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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