An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:15 am

Look, if I'm on this site, that means I'm a Nightcrawler fan. That goes without saying.

It seems as of late though I've had some revelations. Most-times when you find a group of hardcore fans (especially the ones I know in real-life), they seem to be dedicated to the character to the point that it's almost blind-faith. I have recognized distaste, venom, and hatred in voices of Kurt fans towards almost any and all other X-members. Even Marvel classics! They have spat at the names of some of the most accomplished writers that are in the business at this time as well as given the finger to some of the most astonishing artwork in the industry.

I used to share in many of these sentiments. I also was bitter about the death of Kurt Wagner, but as of recently?

I think it makes sense now.

Now hold on! I didn't say it's good. I didn't say I approve, or that it was smart when it happened. I, actually, think that their attempt to make a death that spoke highly to Kurt's character was rather lame. In all honesty,

spoilers!

It could have been Bobby's chest that Bastion's arm reached through, and it would have been equally alarming to the reader. I think they took the cheapest shot (Nightcrawler) because in all honesty, where they were taking the team later has no business with Kurt. He would have never allowed it, and for good story, you need change.

Could they have just moved him to a re-formed Excalibur? Sure, why not!? But as Nightcrawler fans, do you really believe that Kurt would just sit back and not jump back in the fray to assist, and pull them out of a rut before they hit rock-bottom?

Of course he would. That's why Kurt had to die. Because he would never have let the team sink so low.

We see now the X-Men at their lowest. Cyclops has, for all his best intentions, almost entirely re-formed The Brotherhood of Mutants, once controlled by Magneto. With so many of the characters involved in dark ties (Logan's twisted visit into Hell against all his greatest enemies, X-23 on the run from herself, the Uncanny X-Force trying to eliminate Apocalypse once and for all?) Nightcrawler would have been disgusted, overwhelmed, and we would've had a lot of 'let's sit down and talk it out' sessions.

While I enjoy these sessions as much as the next person (I read Brian Michael Bendis' Ultimate Spider-Man after all!)-- I really feel they are not appropriate for an action-team like the X-Men.


But that's all story. The story of the X-Men (in my opinion, which it is just opinion mind you) has improved with the death of Kurt and will probably get better when he shows back up. But the Marvel Story ... that's an interesting place to go.


It seems Kurt's death is more prominent than you may think. With the absence of my favorite team-member, I honestly don't read X-Men comics any more. At all.
I threw Uncanny X-Men to the wayside, (I hate Fantomex/Deadpool), I can't handle a comic about X-23 if every other page is about her relationship with Logan (we get enough of him don't we?) and I really hate Uncanny/New Mutants/Legacy lately because if it's not IceMan or Beast, (or Banshee, who is unfortunately also dead .... until Dead X-Men starts up...) I really don't care about any of the team members.

It's not that I don't like them, but I honestly don't care. Thankfully, a new book is coming out (yes another X-Book!) with a team involving both Iceman and Magneto!!

Kurt would have never sat for that. And it's strange, but because I know that... it makes me want to read it more. Call it dynamite marketing, call it trickery, whatever it is, it's working.

Since Kurt's death I've really dived deeper into Marvel and found a lot of great titles.

Now that I don't spend $3.99 per 6 X-titles I can spend the money on Shadowland event (which was AWESOME!) and branch out from that, now with a new Heroes For Hire squad that is very interesting, and of course the new Spider-Girl!).

Amazing Spider-man has gotten considerably better since Brand New Day (a travesty that thankfully has resulted in some great comics) and even Man Without Fear featuring The Black Panther was a great find! Only one issue in and I love it! Let's face it, without Kurt around, there's no X-Men. With no X-Men for me to keep track of, I have time/money for Marvel's other books, and I can tell the X-Teams aren't hurting that bad 'cause none of the writers are being taken off or artists switched around. Their books are still good, they just don't interest me!

But now I get to see Fraction's work on his true baby, Invincible Iron Man and J. Hickmann's Fantastic Four event which will be the death of a member! (For the Record, I'm calling that it's Johnny.)

I had a hard time dealing at first, like a junky without his drugs, like a fat-kid without his cake, but now that I've had my cake... and I ate it (having read some great Nightcrawler back-issues and experienced an eventful, albeit unoriginal, death of a major character), I think moving on was one of the best decisions I could've made. For myself, for the Company (which is always to be considered, being I can't get what I want unless they do, and they won't get what they want unless I'm happy), and of course, for my wallet.

I hope you enjoy my brief rant & I sincerely hope no one takes it too seriously or too close to heart. I still love the little elf, I still love this forum, and I still can't wait to see what Marvel Comics does next!!

Sincurly & w/ Love!

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HAPPY HOLIDAYS


[Edited on 22/12/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Svartfreja » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:49 am

I really have no feelings about Kurt's death, one way or another. I mean, it's sad that he died but usually I assume Marvel know what they're doing (except with some things and then I flail and shout but that's neither here nor there). I read the Secong Coming arc. I don't normally read any X titles (except New Mutants which I know most people don't like but I'm stalking Magma so I don't care. ner) but I decided to read the Second Coming stuff because for one it was tied in with the one X title I read and for two because I figured I'd see what it was like to read X titles for a bit.

I actually kind of like the dark and ominous direction the whole arc took and all the stuff that happened after it with the Heroic Age in the rest of the Marvel universe has been pretty freaking awesome. I'm an Avengers nut and proud of it and all of that right now is shiny and taking some lovely new directions - Including Steve Rogers asking Excalibur to be part-time Avengers (that made me fan-squee in the shop and I got funny looks from the staff ¬.¬)

I STILL only read New Mutants with regards to X titles but I'm more willing now to read more because I like the darker plots. Angsty stuff is fine on and off, but I prefer edgy. The drama pleases me.

And I still say, this is Marvel. Kurt will be back and he'll be shinier than ever. You're not a real superhero in MarvelU until you've died and been resurrected at least once.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 2:52 am

I could not have said it better myself Freja.

What a splendid way of putting it.


You're not a real superhero in MarvelU until you've died and been resurrected at least once.


Take that, Scott Summers. ;)
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby kladyelf » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:43 am

I think :) has been killed off/resurrected in the Excalibur cross-time caper (all in one issue, does that count?)

You do have a point, Nightcrawler (as he was currently being written - Excalibur backside-kicking elfy aside) would never have stood for a lot of what has been happening, both openly and secretly.

Well, some of it anyway, remember Magneto was reintroduced to the team and Nighty didn't even blink, (well, I think Beast did, but nevermind) while Scotty was already going organising his own Fantasy Island o' Friso Bay and again, Nightcrawler's reaction was not really shown, which is a shame as it would have been interesting, but anyway. That's not the important part

This is:

almost entirely re-formed The Brotherhood of Mutants, once controlled by Nightcrawler.


when did this happen?? What issue was it in? *poings excitedly* :D

unless you mean Magneto or Mystique's respective Brotherhoods?
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is Dead...

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Dec 22, 2010 5:47 am

I did mean Magneto, my bad!

LOL That would be interesting take!

Yes the reason I wanted to point out *Magneto* in there is that he has now become an essential part of the X-Team. So the irony is not lost on long-term X-Fans.

I'm also realizing it should have been "DOVE" and not "DIVED", but when I type it, I picture the word 'dove' like the bird, and my mind farts and won't let me type it out.

[[BACK ON TOPIC]]

I started this thread to talk about the PROS of Kurt's death. I feel like we've already exhausted many, if not all, the cons of the unfortunate loss. I want to know if anyone is seeing any positive changes rather than fall-out. I know many have just stopped reading all together. I have before and will again, eagerly urge people to try new Marvel Titles. There's a lot of great work out there.

[Edited on 22/12/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Angelique » Wed Dec 22, 2010 6:15 am

I must beg to differ, of course. I don't loathe all the X-characters other than Nightcrawler. I loathe how they've been made to act in order to prop up Fraction's iteration of Cyclops. The Storm I always liked would have had the conviction and wherewithall to take Cyclops down- as she did without powers and over lesser offenses than what he'd done recently, not just give him a lecture, but let him retain his leadership role.

I don't like the direction the X-books have taken. Yes, the X-Men have hit an all-time low. The problem is that it seems the writers don't really know that- and the characters are acting like things are all hunky-dory with Cyclops in charge. Keeping Beast in the lineup or Nightcrawler alive as token opposition would have created a different and in my opinion more interesting and dramatic conflict in the upcoming stories- which could actually force Cyclops to redeem himself.

And I don't like the way Marvel treats death like a character's rite of passage. It cheapens the whole thing.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Dec 22, 2010 10:29 am

I get why they killed Kurt. I still think it's stupid, but I get it. I still think it was unnecessary, but I get it. They needed the man of faith--sadly, he was characterized as little else by that point--to put his faith in Hope.

What really bothers me is that he was used as a prop in a pattern that's developed with all dissenters, few as they may be. They leave, change position, or die. At a time when almost every single member of the team should be pitching a fit, there is no lasting dissent among the select few who voice it. When did they all become bobble-heads? It makes no sense and is frustrating to read.

Keeping Kurt around would have made far more sense, I think. If properly utilized (which he rally hadn't been for years), he could function both as the conscience and silver lining of the team. It even would have been possible if they had sidelined him with a serious injury, leaving him only able to operate in an advisory role. That could have produced some hilarious exchanges with Emma and some dramatic exchanges with Scott.

But noooo, all the blue furry folk got exiled from the X-titles. Hmpf.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 12:32 am

Well, Wahnsinn, while you're completely correct that Kurt would have been properly utilized as a silver lining and streaming conscience, they didn't want that right now.

Think of how badly the team needs him now. The drama there of having such a character who could easily make it better, (or at least greatly contribute, let's not over-sell this) and he can't be there.

This only confirms that his return will be all the more glorious and hyped up.

Has anyone seen any pro's though to the team with his death? I think we're seeing an interesting side of Cyclops that hasn't been written before (and not just by Fraction) and it is intriguing to me to see him fall so far from grace.

Meanwhile, Wolverine is climbing up from his shadowy place on the team and he might even have a Jimminy Cricket stuck somewhere in those grey/yellow spandex now! It's amazing what a character trait a single character can bring. Kurt brought sensibility and balance to Scott. Logan tried to listen to the sense/balance but lost sight of it. Now when he's blind with rage, he regrets it and thinks back to his friend. Quite a different way to play out than Logan's usual mutterings.

[Edited on 23/12/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Angelique » Thu Dec 23, 2010 1:12 am

I think you've exhausted all the pros, right there, but for one. I'm buying more idies!

Meanwhile, the ideas you cite seem good, but if the follow-through is weak to nonexistent, they might as well not be taking place. Cyclops' fall from grace would be interesting if more than one character alive noticed it enough to actually do something (although it didn't amount to much) about it. How responsible are the other X-Men for allowing this fall from grace to happen under their noses, and as long as they all ignore or otherwise allow this to continue, why should I like them?
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is Dead...

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 2:15 am

Ouch.

Well, I think the pro's are seen throughout the series in other places. With the absence of the teams central, spiritual character, it might be interesting to see someone like Magneto take that slot and be there for characters like Rogue, Gambit, Colossus, and Iceman (as he is apparently doing now, more-or-less).

I'm really very happy with many of the interesting ways they've kept the team in character. The writers have been exploring entirely new character traits (but not unbelievable ones) in each and every X-Member since this death.

I think Storm's stomp out should have been a bit more sincere, I agree, but that could easily get chalked up to poor editing. I'm sure her recent input in the Black Panther: Man Without Fear series is going to be very helpful to Storm/Kurt fans. We'll probably see some serious consideration to the Blue Fuzz in that book. (And if he can get mentioned in a NON-X-MAN title?! That's great! It'll further intrigue, further demand for back-issues, further the demand for A RETURN! MUAHAHA! >_> I'm not looney I promise.)

[Edited on 23/12/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Dec 23, 2010 3:06 pm

The pros? Kurt's probably gotten more panel time since died than he did in the previous year. (Yeah, I went there.) It did allow Emma to have a rare moment of character depth in the scene where she discussed naming her gray hairs. Honestly, I don't think his death had much more than a superficial impact. Characters occasionally talk about how they miss him and stare at his picture, but they largely go on about doing the same stuff they did before he got dead (in a way that should have been impossible).

Er, I rather took the bit with Storm in BP:MWF to indicate that she would have almost no presence in that title. She did, however, show up and talk a bit about Kurt in the first issue of X-23.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Dec 23, 2010 4:11 pm

I think she's going to be there at least once in BP:MWF. Mostly 'cause the #FF are having a dead member soon and she's been in that pot before. (:humantorch is gonna diiiieeeee)

I think the impact needs to come off superficial though 'cause it wouldn't be a very fun comic if everyone was just moping about and sighing 'cause Kurt died every few pages. However; the fact his name is going to get dropped more as characters spread out (I'm sure Brubaker/Bendis whoever is writing it now is going to have Beast say something in Secret Avengers at some point as Logan already has in The Avengers) is a clear indicator to me that the company will be asking writers to show the audience the Marvel Company and their characters have not forgotten the elf, and you shouldn't too.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Fri Dec 24, 2010 12:55 pm

Storm was there once already, via video call on a computer in the first issue. Her husband told her to stay away so he could maintain his cover and do what it is he's trying to do, and she agreed.

The comics don't have to be depressing for there to be a significant impact from his death. In fact, they could go for a more positive and heroic approach in his honor because that's the kind of person he was. As it is, the removal of Norman Osborn from power and the return of Hope had more impact than his death. Kurt's death was really an obligatory death to build up dramatic tension for the event.

I would like to see Beast have more of a role in Secret Avengers, period.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Blob55 » Fri Dec 24, 2010 7:47 pm

Hey, Ult_sm and freja really made me feel better about the X-Men! I can now read X-Men comics without regret.
Though... there is just one thing. Will Beast be coming back?
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Dec 25, 2010 7:14 am

Beast is on the fence for now, but I'm sure when Scott either dies/steps down as Generalissimo we'll see the big blue ball of awesome return.

I believe she may stay out of the book now, as you suggested Wahnsinn, but I wouldn't be surprised if she shows up in Avengers now or in Fantastic 4 and thus, as will Black Panther.

And you're completely right, there should be more positive responses rather than negative, similar to the Logan One-Shot where he did Kurt's last request.

I'm honestly expecting more from Marvel in that department, and I have no worries about them delivering. WHEN they will deliver -- however, is another issue entirely! LOL!
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:13 pm

Isn't Fantastic Four ending in preparation for FF? I can't keep up with all the reboots, much less on titles I don't read. :P

I wouldn't expect much in the way of positive development until after the Fear event, which will be crossing into the X-titles. Before that, there's AoX and some kind of crisis in Uncanny. The new XM title holds some potential to do something positive after the vampire business finishes. It's hard to say what will happen, though. The editorial staff seems to have their fingers a wee bit too deep in the pudding with respect to that title, given what Gischler has said in interviews.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Dec 26, 2010 6:28 pm

Wahnsinn, I'd love to see some sources on that bit about Gischler, 'cause the interview I read on CBR with him said the book was going swimmingly and Axel Alonso had been in big support of what he's doing with the story. He'd gotten calls from Fraction and even Mike Marts (the Supervisor for Batman) about his efforts with the book, trying to bring back the glory that was once one of the most popular Mavel titles.


I believe Fantastic Four IS ending, for the supposed "FF" but, as noted before, they had no trouble replacing Two of the F4 before (Reed/Sue during post-Civil War) w/ T'Challa & Ororo, and they didn't have any quarrels with replacing Murdock with T'Challa, so I am expecting Ororo to join her husband in NYC to replace the dead Fantastic Four member.


They might even just make up an entirely new team if the others don't feel like doing it anymore after the death of their mystery team mate. (I still think it's gonna be Johnny....)
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Mon Dec 27, 2010 1:19 am

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Gischler said it as a negative. But here's an example (emphasis mine in underline):
4) What made you decide to throw the X-Men back into public light with your next arc, "Serve and Protect?" Is this Scott's way of saying, "It's time for us to be heroes and protect mankind along with our own?" And what inspired you to lead with Storm?

Well, it's not so much "my" decision...although I do think it's pretty cool. Rather, serving and protecting is sort of the Heroic Age mission statement of the book and I was tapped to follow that path. As for Storm, I just felt she was the right pick - another character that could use more face-time and also has good leadership experience. I'll be using Storm as much as the editors will let me and as long as her presence is appropriate for whatever story we're telling.


From that and another of his answers in the same interview, I inferred that the editors have quite a bit of input into plot and story development. In my opinion, such things should be left to the writers with only very minimal directional input from the editors. Let the writers write, I say.

On the FF, I think the new title might stand for "First Family," which would make it a little odd to throw in a random person; although, I could see them tossing in one of their current pet projects or one of the chars they see as instant money. I just don't envision Storm violating T'Challa's wishes by lurking about Hell's Kitchen, especially after she said she wouldn't, though.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Dec 29, 2010 3:22 pm

Well, unfortunately Marvel has always been credited as having a "problem" with letting "writers write" because they have that Think Tank place (i forget it's name now), while DC just lets writers go willy nilly.


I think both have their pro's/con's. While DC pumps out great stories, sometimes it's hard to get a lock on what is going on (See anything Grant Morrison has written in the last year for Batman). Meanwhile you've already addressed the Con on Marvel's behalf, so the pro to that is, it's an organized story with a cemented direction.

I would like to think being it's a new writer on a classic title, with a lot of characters loved by many fans, it would make sense that once in awhile they hover over him to make sure he's got it right.

However the most incriminating part is the: "it wasn't my decision". Remember, he could also be biting his lip on something. Probably something stupid, if he wants to keep using Storm who has said she's done with the team.

For lack of a better argument (for now), let's say the editors are controlling the story, until Gischler gets his feet completely wet. Is that bad? Is the story bad? I dropped it only 'cause I'm sick of Vampires. I didn't think it was badly written at all, and the parts I read I liked, but I didn't have $ for another book w/out Kurt or Iceman in it. They're trying, really, is what I'm getting at here.


Also in "FF", like I said earlier, Storm isn't really a random person being she's served as a Fantastic Four member already. I think maybe Deadpool would be a better choice for "an odd throw". As for Storm violating T'Challa, they haven't really given us a good reason as to why he's there in the first place (I didn't know he and Matt were so close, I find a request hard to believe), so this is sort of my way of telling Marvel to validate themselves by hoping she shows up in it. LOL!

Remember, these guys tend to scroll the Fan-Boards! :smirk

[Edited on 29/12/10 by Ult_Sm86]
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Dec 30, 2010 3:22 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I would like to think being it's a new writer on a classic title, with a lot of characters loved by many fans, it would make sense that once in awhile they hover over him to make sure he's got it right.

I get correcting him when he's contradicting continuity or depicting a someone as wildly out of character. That's what an editor should do. What doesn't make a lick of sense to me is having editors outright handing the writer the plot. That stifles creativity.


However the most incriminating part is the: "it wasn't my decision". Remember, he could also be biting his lip on something. Probably something stupid, if he wants to keep using Storm who has said she's done with the team.

Yeah, she's been hanging around them a lot for someone who's done with them. She may not be inclined to join the field team under Scott's orders, but she's definitely still interacting with the X-Men.

For lack of a better argument (for now), let's say the editors are controlling the story, until Gischler gets his feet completely wet. Is that bad? Is the story bad? I dropped it only 'cause I'm sick of Vampires. I didn't think it was badly written at all, and the parts I read I liked, but I didn't have $ for another book w/out Kurt or Iceman in it. They're trying, really, is what I'm getting at here.

Ironically, Iceman plays a part in defeating the attacking vampire horde in an idea that came from--wait for it--the editors. :smirk
Gischler's no novice writer. While he's new to the medium, he's a published novelist. He may need a little reminder of the facts here and there because the X-Men have a rich history, but he should be able to handle himself as a writer.

As for Storm violating T'Challa, they haven't really given us a good reason as to why he's there in the first place (I didn't know he and Matt were so close, I find a request hard to believe), so this is sort of my way of telling Marvel to validate themselves by hoping she shows up in it. LOL!

He's there to find himself. T'Challa's having a midlife crisis. :LOL
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby deadpixiedust » Mon Jan 03, 2011 3:05 am

Nightcrawler fans really aren't acting especially awful from what I've seen posting on many boards, they are pretty nice for the most part even among trolling, if you count having an opposing view to Scott's actions or Marvels new direction I don't see that as bad behavior but as an opinion. I personally don't think Scott keeping the threat of Bastion from Kurt good leadership. If you are a Scott fan then I'm sorry. I never hated the character and have defended him in the past but his actions without accountability really bugs me now. :?

I do think Kurt coming back can be awesome and I don't want him to come back just to be wallpaper again, I know some fans are that desperate but not be, have him come back in secret and be an imposing force and Scott and Logan be like WTF with a writer that really likes him and gets him. :-D
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Jan 03, 2011 4:50 am

Dead Pixie Dust,

you're 100% right. That would be a great way to return. I believe I said a few months ago when he died that his return could be monumental if he shows up in Uncanny X-Force, and repeatedly thwarts their attempts to kill people. I would love to see him come back as a dark, but restrained, force.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Angelique » Mon Jan 03, 2011 10:15 pm

If he came back as a dark force, what would distinguish him from the rest of the X-Men now- and make him seem at all important? The X-Men have already gotten far too dark without the help of a raised, "dark" Nightcrawler. (Like "Dark Wolverine" is in my opinion more and more redundant, a dark Nightcrawler should be an oxymoron.)
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Jan 04, 2011 2:50 pm

Well, I imagine he'd be fairly upset he was dead. I would think he is also upset at how he was not made aware of the situation of X-Force, so therefore, upon his return, he might have a slightly darker, but still very Kurt- outlook on the whole thing.
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An Argument For Argument's Sake: Why It Works That Kurt Is D

Postby Angelique » Wed Jan 05, 2011 12:27 am

Wouldn't be darker. Remember, Kurt's a Catholic. He might not be as upset about being dead as about the corruption, negligence, and deceit at the top of the X-Men. Still, that doesn't make him dark. Light can be bad-ass too.
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