Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Angelique » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:35 am

Some religious people behave like one-dimensional characters, but that could be said for anyone who allows one characteristic to completely dominate their lives. The majority of the people worldwide are religious, and the majority of people worldwide are not one-dimensional. It's simply lazy writing to let one characteristic dominate all the others. Yet that has happened in the X-books, and not just with Nightcrawler. Cyclops became "the undisputed leader." Emma Frost has been "the girlfriend." Et cetera.
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Wahnsinn » Wed Aug 24, 2011 10:15 am

Angelique wrote:Some religious people behave like one-dimensional characters, but that could be said for anyone who allows one characteristic to completely dominate their lives. The majority of the people worldwide are religious, and the majority of people worldwide are not one-dimensional. It's simply lazy writing to let one characteristic dominate all the others. Yet that has happened in the X-books, and not just with Nightcrawler. Cyclops became "the undisputed leader." Emma Frost has been "the girlfriend." Et cetera.

It's not lazy if that's what they intended to make Kurt. Is it unfortunate? Yes, but it's not lazy. In fact, they did a darn good job if they were going for the borderline religious extremist angle. An intervention and some introspection could've turned him around and sent him back in the direction of a more moderate, well-rounded person. Alas, they killed him.

Emma's got more than just that role. She's also the snarky faux Brit, occasional co-leader, and keeper of secrets. There is no excuse for Ultimate Commander McAwesomepants, though.
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Angelique » Wed Aug 24, 2011 4:53 pm

Yes, it is lazy writing. Emma hasn't been snarky or portrayed as anywhere near Cyclops' equal in years. As for the way Nightcrawler's been written, it was as if he'd been written by people who's knowledge of religion is limited to stereotypes. If they wanted to write him well, they would not have reduced him to the role of "token religious guy."
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Wahnsinn » Thu Aug 25, 2011 3:31 pm

Emma has so been snarky, and she even got a nice non-snarky moment where she remarked on naming her gray hairs. I never said she was portrayed as Scott's equal, but she has played co-leader here and there. It typically doesn't last more than a few panels, but it does happen. Of course, Gillen managed to give her more personality in one speech bubble than Fraction did over most of his run, but that's another issue unto itself. :P

Stereotypes exist for a reason: some people fit them. If that's what they wanted Kurt to be, it's not lazy to write him exactly that way. We may think there were better options, but we don't get to do the writing. Whether they were doing it intentionally is something only they know, and I'll certainly agree that it was lazy if shoving him into that role wasn't intentional.

Although Fraction didn't seem to know what to do with most of the Uncanny cast, Kurt's metamorphosis into the annoying preachy type started before he took over writing duties. It rather looks like he planned to take him out, too. Under Fraction's pen, Kurt got stabbed in the chest twice (that I can remember off the top of my head) before getting killed by an arm through the chest. That's either some mighty powerful foreshadowing or, for Fraction, a very fortunate accident.
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Angelique » Thu Aug 25, 2011 5:19 pm

If that's how they wanted to make Kurt, then they were deliberately sabotaging the character. And yes, the descent into angsty, preachy stereotype (and sorry, but falling back on "stereotypes exist for a reason" is intellectually lazy, ignoring the reality that in most cases they're flat-out wrong) began before Fraction. But even that poorly researched decision to make Kurt an insta-priest was better written than when he fell into the hands of writers with overtly anti-religious and particularly anti-Christian agendas.

But even writers who mean well by their characters have fallen into the trap of using the broadest possible strokes to portray characters. Who beside me rolled their eyes whenever Northstar was written as a gay stereotype?
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Postby Wahnsinn » Fri Aug 26, 2011 11:32 am

They probably didn't see it as sabotage, though. It's not in their best interests to do that kind of thing. For whatever reason, that's what they saw as an acceptable story thread for Kurt. It wouldn't have been allowed otherwise. Do I think that was a bad move? Yep, but I'm not going to pretend they're stupid enough to intentionally tank their own sales.

Do you have evidence that the writers and/or editors are anti-religious/Christian, or is that simply an assumption on your part? Don't make potentially hurtful accusations if you can't back them up. And remember that a person being critical of (a specific) religion doesn't mean they're opposed to (that) religion.

There's no intellectual laziness here. (There is only typing laziness leading to the ditching of certain details for the sake of brevity.) The stereotypical preachy religion-centered Christian exists and, from my observation, really don't seem to be as rare as you or I might like. I suspect your resistance comes down to not wanting to be remotely associated with the loudmouthed ones who spew some seriously reprehensible crap, which I completely understand. Like it or not, those people are real. Purposely writing a character as one of those people is not lazy. It's a reflection of a specific reality.

Does the stereotypical flamboyant gay man exist? Yep. The problem with doing that to Northstar is that he'd never shown any signs of being that kind of person. They spent years making Kurt as annoyingly preachy as he became, indicating that it was an intentional character progression.

Now, since we seem to be going in circles, perhaps it's best we get to talking about things to come instead of things gone by? We can't change the past, after all. Kurt was what he was before he died, as much as we don't like it. Even if he gets rezzed as the happy swashbuckler, it won't change what he was before he died. But isn't it rather unfair and premature to crap on AoA Kurt's adventures in the 616 and the associated titles?
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Postby Angelique » Sat Aug 27, 2011 1:34 am

Austen is the most obvious example, and the most egregious when he used Nightcrawler specifically as a mouthpiece for his views, for instance, in Holy Wars. Furthermore, it's not accurate to lump all Christians together. Catholics by and large tend not to be loudmouthed and preachy, particularly not German Catholics. Even among Christians in general, they don't get stereotyped as quiet and laid back why? Not because most Christians are obnoxious and preachy, but because loudmouths of any kind tend to get more notice. The character "progression" was not a logical one for Nightcrawler.

At any rate, I'm not crapping on AoA Nightcrawler's adventures in 616. I just do not consider him the "real" Nightcrawler.
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 4:16 am


Catholics by and large tend not to be loudmouthed and preachy,


We clearly know very different Catholics. LOL!

I think characterizing Kurt as a Christian and then characterizing that type of christian based on how Kurt acts is just an example of some of the conversations that got Marvel into the boat they're in now. When writers started writing for the beliefs and not for the story, people stopped caring.

[Edited on 27/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Angelique » Sat Aug 27, 2011 8:05 am

I know German Catholics.
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Postby Jeremus » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:10 pm

IMO making Kurt into an uber religious preachy character may have been intentional on some of the writers part, but it's so stereotypical of what many people think about christians that it seems to me like it stems more out of the ignorance of the writers. And yes, there are christians that fit the stereotypes......but Kurt was never like that in any way in all the many years he was running around with the Xmen and Excalibur. It was unfair to him to stereotype him. That's just my opinion.

As to the appearance of AoA Nightcrawler. I think it's a good idea for a storyline. I love alternate realities and I'd like to see the character interact with the 616 universe. But I'm with Angelique....Darkholme is not a substitute for Kurt Wagner. Darkholm is a different character.....like X-23 is to Logan. If they killed off Logan and said, 'well, there's Laura--it's the same thing', no one would buy that. I like Laura and I like Logan but even though their dna is the same, they're not interchangeable. To me Darkholme will just be another new character introduced to Xforce. He cannot replace Wagner.




[Just a thought: I wonder if the movie version of him influenced any of the writers in these last few years?]

[Edited on 01/19/09 by Jeremus]
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Aug 27, 2011 5:49 pm

Ultimate Universe did in fact kill off Logan and replaced him with his illegitimate son, Daken. It's theoretical that they might do that in canon if Wolverine didn't sell so many comics.

As for Movie-Kurt, yes I am willing to believe that that movie inspired a lot of religious style writing for Kurt in the comics.

And one other thing, with AoA Kurt now being used, Marvel doesn't have to pay less creative licensing towards Cockrum's family and such for use of him. I'm willing to bet that's mostly why DC is rebooting all their characters. Creative properties are expensive nowadays, and everyone's running the risk of being sued or having to pay for lawyers every year just to settle.
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Sun Aug 28, 2011 2:58 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:And one other thing, with AoA Kurt now being used, Marvel doesn't have to pay less creative licensing towards Cockrum's family and such for use of him. I'm willing to bet that's mostly why DC is rebooting all their characters. Creative properties are expensive nowadays, and everyone's running the risk of being sued or having to pay for lawyers every year just to settle.


People keep bringing this up. Does anyone have a link? I was under the impression that the people who created all these characters in the 60s and 70s had NO RIGHTS to them. They were employees of the company, the work was done for the company, the company has full rights. I seem to remember Paty posting about this a lot. Did something change?
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Aug 28, 2011 3:06 am

I believe they had fought hard for these rights recently. (5-7 years ago?) There's talks of it somewhere in the Cockrum Corner.

This is what was told to me at the least. I know for a fact that's still the case with Batman/Superman being they all open with the same thing most Stan Lee comics do these days. "Stan Lee Presents:"

"Bob Kane's Batman" type deal.

I wouldn't be surprised if it was a (minor) contributing factor into killing off Ultimate Peter Parker (besides the fact that having two identical characters in two currently running universes is a bit redundant).

[Edited on 28/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Angelique » Sun Aug 28, 2011 5:38 am

The Drastic Spastic wrote: I was under the impression that the people who created all these characters in the 60s and 70s had NO RIGHTS to them. They were employees of the company, the work was done for the company, the company has full rights. I seem to remember Paty posting about this a lot. Did something change?


Dave Cockrum was not employed by Marvel or any comic book company when he created and began developing Nightcrawler. That work was not "done for the company."
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Wolverine and X-men #1 cover...Crawler?

Postby Crawler » Sun Aug 28, 2011 7:34 pm

This topic is now being discussed here: http://www.nightscrawlers.com/forum/vie ... ?tid=14791

Please direct all further discussion to that thread. Thank you.
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