AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

Post by **Freak** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:07 pm

That's a new twist on resurrecting a hero:

[Edited on 8-28-2011 by Crash Tofu]

Post by **Elwing** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 3:52 pm

That does look like AOA kurt does it? I hope that is true because he was great fun if I recall correctly (that was ages ago!). Great, swashbuckling fun...

Darkholme · Post by **Darkholme** » Fri Aug 19, 2011 4:21 pm

When they said Uncanny X-Force was heading to the Age of Apocalypse, this is what I had hoped for. There are so many awesome possible moments with him in 616 now. Exciting!

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 3:07 am

Fuckin' A.

There is only one comic book I'm gonna be reading now besides ASM and that's it.

Also another plus is keeping Deadpool out of canon. Give him the Age of Apocalypse people to mess around with for awhile, keep him out of the splash pages of some of the important crossovers.

Unfortunately I can clearly make out Fantomex there... and I have a feeling this is gonna be connected to Cable's return too...

[Edited on 20/8/11 by Ult_Sm86]

JackSkulls · Post by **JackSkulls** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 4:25 am

the only characters missing are Wolvie and Warren not DP

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 2:01 pm

I'm not sure I understand.

Jeremus · Post by **Jeremus** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 5:39 pm

I really hope this works because I really like AoA Kurt. I'm definitely going to be reading this. I just hope he stays mostly Darkholme (I'm not saying he can't learn to deal with some issues, but I hope he stays true to character).

My theory is that they got rid of Wagner because they were having trouble fitting him into the darker Marvel Universe. Darkholme fits perfectly with it. So now you technically have a Nightcrawler in the Marvel U (so no lawsuits) but he fits with what the writers wanted Wagner to be more like IMO. So now you have a Nightcrawler that's willing to be a little more violent, not going to have as much of a problem with crossing lines, and without all that pesky "glass half full" personality ....oh yeah, and no religion too.

I'm still going to read it, but I hope this isn't the end of Wagner...like forever.

Bamfing_Bob · Post by **Bamfing_Bob** » Sat Aug 20, 2011 10:21 pm

Deadpool and Nightcrawler in the same book?! I will start buying comics again for this!

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:48 am

The comments on the CBR thread are hilarious.

lol i hope he murders lots of people.
Kurt bitches about X-Force so they kill him off and replace him with VICIOUS Kurt as a member of X-Force.

I hope all the characters talk about how much better this Kurt is since he's not the X-Force buzzkill.

Yeah! I know these people are being sarcastic but I get a kick out of it anyway because, well, I genuinely prefer this to the other end of the spectrum. Which they tried, and it didn't work because pacifist moralizing judgeypants superheros are no fun. I gave up on Marvel being able to arrest his long slow descent into suckiness and so did they. I thought they were going to bring him back evil, but this is even better. Less time wasted on boring religious angst, more blood and wisecracks.

You might think that now I'm being sarcastic. Still nope.

I'm going to be all over this. It looks like I already missed an appearance awhile back.

Edit:

very exciting news. i can't wait to see whose head nightcrawler teleports off first. good job, marvel.

[Edited on 21-8-2011 by The Drastic Spastic]

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 3:42 pm

You know, they have Deadpool and Fantomex for the blood and wisecracks. This is not an improvement. When all the characters are about blood and wisecracks with no foils, no concscience, it can actually get monotonous.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 4:23 pm

This is definitely an improvement from a character who was written into a corner. If you would like to remember Nightcrawler as Dave had him, those comics still exist and I'm sure everyone who wants that Kurt still owns them. That's what is great about back-issues and comic stores. They'll never go completely out of style.

Also I see Marvel is pulling a DC. By doing this, Kurt is no longer Dave Cockrum's character, he is a What-If version. Same thing they did with Batman/Superman/Flash/ the rest of DC. They were losing money and couldn't make bank paying the creator rights.

Now they don't have to. Smart. Back-door and a bit underhanded but I'm sure most Johnny-Come-Latelys to comics are not going to be aware of it, and nor should they. That's irrelevant for them, that version of Nightcrawelr (Batman/Superman/Etc...) was not what they got into.

This is a very clever move on Marvel's part.

Bamfing_Bob · Post by **Bamfing_Bob** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 6:09 pm

very exciting news. i can't wait to see whose head nightcrawler teleports off first. good job, marvel.

In issue 11, Kurt tries teleporting Deadpool's head off, but it was a mindtrick.

I like Nightcrawler as a moral compass, but if that's all he is, what good is he? I think Marvel highlighting the aggresive, skilled fighter Kurt is will ultimately help the character. Look at how popular dark characters are... Deadpool, Wolverine, Batman... I just hope they develop AoA Kurt into a mix of the two versions through exposing him to 616... Only one way to find out I guess...

Blue_Collar_Nerd · Post by **Blue_Collar_Nerd** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 8:53 pm

Is this a joke? Did they want the aesthetic appeal of Nightcrawler so they brought in this hipper, edgier version with a completly different history and put him on X-Force? Are they trying to lure back Kurt's fan base without aknowledging that killing the original was a mistake? How transparently cynical the X-office has become. Kurt wasn't defined by just his appearence and powers, it was personal history and relationships with characters like Kitty Pryde, Rachel, Mystique and Logan.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Sun Aug 21, 2011 9:01 pm

Like I said, those comics are still around for you to read them if you don't like it.

I think this is a very positive move for the character, who is NOT Nightcrawler as we knew him.

Everyone is trying to say "Oh! Nightcrawler's back!" but he's not. This is a different Kurt from an alternate timeline who is being incorporated into a canon-timeline. And he's a different person with different values, different experiences, different dreams and aspirations. He has had a completely different lifestyle and upbringing (as a character) and not only is it unfair to judge him on the same value as Cockrum's Kurt, but it's also unfair to call him before we see him.

The Kurt I remember for AoA was a perfect marriage of resentment towards an age of violence as well as a person of some kind of muddled faith. He didn't want to believe in God but he still had those religious conversations written in. He is still, no matter what, an X-Man. That means he's still a hero and he still stands for something.

Let's see how this plays out.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 4:56 am

"Let's see how this plays out," is the attitude that keeps people buying shoddy product, even as they wonder why they're repeatedly disappointed when it doesn't play out well.

At any rate, I think it is a cynical move to maintain the Nightcrawler trademark without actually using the Nightcrawler character. No more. No less. It's an idea that has potential, but it's not Nightcrawler. Not the one that kept me reading for decades. Sure, I could just reread the back issues. But people who don't buy new issues or who buy new issues they don't like (thereby giving businesses the wrong idea that sales reflect quality) don't help the industry. At any rate, I'll check it out, but I won't buy it unless I am floored.

[Edited on 22/8/2011 by Angelique]

Indigo_Lady · Post by **Indigo_Lady** » Mon Aug 22, 2011 5:20 am

I'm sorry to be a killjoy, but this isn't good news IMHO. I loved Kurt for who he was - Dave and CC's Kurt, Excalibur Kurt. If this means THAT Kurt is never coming back, it's like twisting the knife in last year's wound. This is a poor substitute and I feel betrayed. And don't talk like writers couldn't bring him back to what he was. He's a fictional character for heaven's sake, they could write him any way they wanted. If he descended into suckiness, blame the crumby writers. It takes intelligence to write a character who thinks his way out of a problem rather than resulting to vicious tactics. If there is fault, it lies in writers with neither intelligence nor real imagination. I was reading a comment at a different forum recently. One person's opinion was that the X-Men had outgrown characters like Kurt, Hank and Professor X. Out grown? Since when is meeting every difficulty with a violent solution a more "mature" way of dealing with difficulties? Yeah, I know I sound like Paty, because in this I thoroughly agree with her.

Some of you can say how exiting this news is, but antiheroes are NOT heroes in my book. A Kurt that is willing to teleport people's body parts off is no superhero to me. Marvel's general decent into darkness is sad indeed, and it goes to show that the X-Men aren't the only ones that have lost their moral compass. There already were plenty of dark comics in the Marvel realm for those with a taste for them.

I remember when comic books were fun. In a time when things are not going so well for the country, at least some of us need that fun again. Life is hard enough as it is. I'm not going to work really hard all day then spend my leisure time or my money immersing myself in darkness. If this is what Marvel's future is, and for those of you are rejoicing, I feel sad for you. If this is the Kurt they plan on dishing up, it's adios Marvel for me, for good this time.

How clever a move is this ultimately? Marvel might want to remember that those of us who grew up with superheros that really were heroes are still the ones with more money. I won't be buying these dark comics for my kids either, nor will I allow them to waste their allowance money.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:17 am

Can I just ask, did you read the Age of Apocalypse storylines where Kurt was included? Because the complaints I have been reading are very muddled and generalized. Like someone who was given a quick overview of what happened. Not accusing, just questioning.

And I don't think the people who are demanding comics (in a time when the country is in such a bad shape -- as you mentioned IndigoLady) are going to be upset when a character they weren't demanding anymore (as sad as that is) doesn't appear any longer. And is instead replaced by a character more akin to the current line-up. In fact, I'm willing to bet they'll actually PAY for that comic.

And believe it or not, Marvel Comics is a company, part of an industry. And the comic book industry didn't magically sell out just a few years ago. It's not this newly sold out corporation that popularized its characters for more money.

They've been doing this since the 60's.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 6:49 am

Ult, were you listening when we were demanding Nightcrawler be included more and better written? Marvel apparently wasn't.

The Drastic Spastic · Post by **The Drastic Spastic** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 8:50 am

Angelique wrote:You know, they have Deadpool and Fantomex for the blood and wisecracks. This is not an improvement. When all the characters are about blood and wisecracks with no foils, no concscience, it can actually get monotonous.

It sounds like you haven't actually read Uncanny X-Force. I hadn't either before making my previous post but I've started them now. At the end of the third issue the team comes up against a major moral quandary and the resolution was so powerful it gave me goosebumps. There were foils and consciences aplenty. All the wisecracking up to that point made a stark contrast to the end where no one was laughing.

It is good writing. Very good. Not good in the sense that everyone was happy at the end and the world was saved, but good as in complex and subtle. I wasn't expecting much, just wanted to get caught up before AOA NIGHTCRAWLER

but it knocked me on my ass.

Indigo_Lady wrote:I won't be buying these dark comics for my kids either, nor will I allow them to waste their allowance money.

Cripes, I would hope not. This is not a kid-friendly book. I think you are underestimating the market for the new style though. Marvel is going for mainstream appeal. (Finallyyyy.) They may lose some fans but they are likely to gain more in the long run.

Offering a solid product is a far better business strategy than trying to cater to a bunch of fussy people who all want different things.

Angelique · Post by **Angelique** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 5:18 pm

I have read Uncanny X-Force, and I found their "moral quandary" to be one very much of their own making. They got no sympathy from me. And that's just the problem- the utter lack of sympathetic characters in situations that made me root for them.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Tue Aug 23, 2011 7:27 pm

Anger, it sounds like no matter how anyone spins this you won't be satisfied until Dave's Kurt returns, bit unfortunately that part of his intellectual property is not around anymore. Marvel is going to save money by not using him and make more money by using AoA Kurt instead. This is just the era that comics are in. Sounds like you don't wanna read it, and believe me that's fine. I threw out my DC titles after Flashpoint. But that's what back issues are for, honestly. It is time for a new Nightcrawler fanbase. Maybe a popular Kurt can get Kurt back in the movies and shows.

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 12:44 am

Also I see Marvel is pulling a DC. By doing this, Kurt is no longer Dave Cockrum's character, he is a What-If version. Same thing they did with Batman/Superman/Flash/ the rest of DC. They were losing money and couldn't make bank paying the creator rights.

Does this mean there will be outrage about his pants, and bemusement about the size/shape/presence of his collar?

Will there be a

without pants? ... and with speedos?

I dunno about everyone else but i'm going to reserve judgement. The Kurt I loved was the Excalibur Kurt but I remember the

version (ah, the 90's, my salad days when I was green in judgement) and will wait and see (then again, bloodgorespatterdeath comics were never my cup of tea either).

Besides where i live now its hard to get some comics - and soon I will be moving somewhere where it will be even harder! (and its been a while since anything really grabbed me... oh well, cash in the bank, cest la vie...)

Indigo_Lady · Post by **Indigo_Lady** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 2:03 am

I own and have read all the AoA books. I didn't particularly care for them.

I'm not sure why some people keep harping on the whole priest thing. Kurt hasn't been a priest for years. In fact, after the Draco debacle when Claremont took Uncanny back, little was mentioned about it and Kurt was back in his more fun loving mode. During the short-lived solo series, his religious side was almost non-existent. So that argument doesn't wash with me. Ever since the book was taken from CC and story lines seemed to be dictated by the editorial staff rather than the writers, Kurt has been pretty much wallpaper. There actually was a writer (can't remember which one), that really wanted Kurt in his book. Instead he was handed over to Faction, who obviously didn't know what to do with him. It makes me think that someone in editorial wanted to see the character fade away, despite his popularity with fans.

I think giving spirituality to Kurt and Kitty made them more three dimensional, not less. Let's face it, there is little character development lately. Characters go from one conflict to another - little down time or humor, few romances (gratuitous sex, but that's different) and few support characters. Frankly, I don't really care much about some of the newer characters because I don't know them and can't relate to them. It's not surprising the comic book industry is in the state it's in. I don't have a comic store near me so I had a subscription to a couple of X books. I have since let those subs slide partly because the last few books I received I couldn't get into.

Ult_Sm86 · Post by **Ult_Sm86** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:38 pm

Who said I was harping about him being a priest?

I was harping about him being a difficult-to-write-overly-religious-character. He came off as a zealot to those who don't care/know about the Catholic lifestyle/procedures. To be very frank, he didn't belong on the team anymore. Or in Marvel Books at all. He might work in DC, but Marvel doesn't balance that very well.

And if that's a problem, then I suppose go read DC?

I didn't say giving them spirituality made them less dimensional. But I said making him deeply religious makes him just that, deeply religious. There's a difference between spiritual and deeply religious.

Also it's Matt Fraction. And I think he did a very good job with Kurt in comparison to the previous writers (Austen, C.C.'s run, etc...)

And the Solo Series? Are you serious? That's all it was about. The 12 issue run, right? It was him as a priest hunting down some human traffickers and gun peddlers. He was shot and bleeding for like 6 (haven't read in awhile could be more/less) issues and his faith in Xavier and God is what kept him going.

Post by **Freak** » Wed Aug 24, 2011 7:45 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote: And the Solo Series? Are you serious? That's all it was about. The 12 issue run, right? It was him as a priest hunting down some human traffickers and gun peddlers. He was shot and bleeding for like 6 (haven't read in awhile could be more/less) issues and his faith in Xavier and God is what kept him going.

Matter of fact, the solo series was about him being a supernatural investigator, a concept quite unique in Marvel comics up until today. The only reason it didn't work is because Marvel is criminally negligent regarding its mystical properties.

Also, a character can be religious and still fun. It's not the character's fault that some writers are simply too lazy to incorporate this into stories. Neither was it Mary Jane's or Peter's fault that those old white men are incapable of writing a married couple because that way they couldn't fullfill their own fantasies of casual flirting and excitement (or, even worse, taking romantic tension out of a character severely inhibits their writing, which spells worlds about its quality). We all know how this turned out, though.