AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser Image

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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 12:27 am

I don't think its meant to appease the whole fanbase so much as its an attempt to create another one.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:49 pm

If that's really what they're going for... then I guess that's fine. They'll get the kind of people who like that sort of character, which I suppose makes sense for the characters who currently make up UXF and the fans who already read it.

But I will not be one of those people, even if it is "Nightcrawler."
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 8:54 pm

It doesn't mean some Nightcrawler fans won't enjoy Darkholme, so long as Marvel keeps in mind some of the very things said in this thread. There's nothing wrong with different titles and different types of characters, and by no means as a Wagner fan should you feel.pressured to accept AoA Kurt. But I would suggest give the character some time and should he expand into other, potentially more light hearted titles, maybe revisit him. Nothing wrong with change, and maybe that's just what Marvel has in store for him.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:34 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:It doesn't mean some Nightcrawler fans won't enjoy Darkholme, so long as Marvel keeps in mind some of the very things said in this thread. There's nothing wrong with different titles and different types of characters, and by no means as a Wagner fan should you feel.pressured to accept AoA Kurt. But I would suggest give the character some time and should he expand into other, potentially more light hearted titles, maybe revisit him. Nothing wrong with change, and maybe that's just what Marvel has in store for him.


See, that is part of what worries me, as a Wagner fan. Marvel has a perfectly good version of that type of Nightcrawler; all it would take is finding another writer who actually likes the character to iron out his backstory and personality and to let it stick this time. The last time a creative team was well on the way to "fixing" Wagner was during the NC solo series. The material/theme was used by Claremont, but after Claremont's run was over, all the work was completely put to the side.
I really, really do not want to see writers try and turn Darkholme into Wagner. Darkholme has the potential to be a good character on his own merit, provided he is fleshed out more, but he will never replace Wagner to staunch fans. I mean I've been a Nightcrawler fan since 1980-ish and I definitely do like Darkholme -- it is enjoyable to see the differences in how he is portrayed and I like the character well enough to want to know more about him (I would guess the "wanting to know more" part is one of the bigger compliments a reader can give a writer about a particular character). However, don't go trying to mollify NC fans by throwing the Darkholme bone at us. They are entirely different characters, that will appeal to different sets of people.

I mean, come on, if writers can bring back cardboard characters like Colossus and Betsy multiple times, they can eventually bring back a tried and true character like Wagner.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Jan 30, 2012 9:52 pm

I don't believe at any point I said that Darkholme should serve as a total replacement and I know Marvel never has. Like I mentioned before, a sizable portion of NC fanbase will not accept nor swallow Kurts death let alone his physical presence being filled in ("replaced") by AoA Kurt. However this doesn't mean Darkholme can't become a good enough character in his own merit. Honestly, Darkholme serves a singular purpose of serving up fans with change and while I totally understand your frustration with how Marvel treated Wagner these last 10 years or so, but once you put that aside I think Darkholme is a fun, intriguing character, completely separate from Warner. And that's what Remender is out to prove. I hope.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Mon Jan 30, 2012 10:08 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I don't believe at any point I said that Darkholme should serve as a total replacement and I know Marvel never has. Like I mentioned before, a sizable portion of NC fanbase will not accept nor swallow Kurts death let alone his physical presence being filled in ("replaced") by AoA Kurt. However this doesn't mean Darkholme can't become a good enough character in his own merit. Honestly, Darkholme serves a singular purpose of serving up fans with change and while I totally understand your frustration with how Marvel treated Wagner these last 10 years or so, but once you put that aside I think Darkholme is a fun, intriguing character, completely separate from Warner. And that's what Remender is out to prove. I hope.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean to imply you had, if it sounded that way. That is simply my concern as far as where future writers may try and go with him. I like Darkholme well enough that I want him to stay Darkholme, and not turn into another version of Wagner to appease fans.

I agree with what you are saying about him, and as I stated, I do like the character and want to know more about him. I'm enjoying Remender's take on him right now and hope to see more panel time for him.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 1:16 pm

It's alright, Sundown. I think I'm half responding do you and half to Des. anyways. Point is, Darkholme has potential.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Tue Jan 31, 2012 8:39 pm

I have no problem with OTHER people liking Darkholme, and I can see people enjoying him. I just don't personally enjoy him, so I won't waste my money on him.

That's all. It's not really that he's a replacement; it's that I just don't like the character.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Angelique » Tue Jan 31, 2012 10:43 pm

While I agree that Darkholme's presence in 616 is intriguing and could make for some decent story lines, I don't think he's a fun character and will not until something dreadful happens that slaps some sense into him and gives him a 616 reality check.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Feb 01, 2012 2:09 pm

DedFlower, that is absolutely fine. No worries. The parts I enjoy about the character is that he is so much like Wagner and then so not. A breath of fresh air. What people keep forgetting is Darkholme is the closest thing to identical Marvel can give us, short of a clone. The only difference between Darkholme and Wagner is their take on life because of the situations their worlds exist in. They ARE the same person, just alternate versions of the other. When people see Darkholme they react to him like he's the black sheep brother.
Is Darkholme a nasty grinch? Yes. Is he loyal to his comrades but has pretty Much no heart otherwise? So far yes. Is he violent to a point it impresses Wolverine? Absolutely.
But the point of the characer is that under the circumstances, this is what we know as Wagner has transformed into (after a considerable lifetime of violence mind you). Logan undrstands that which is why he holds out hope, I think, for the Wagner personalities, that he knows are buried in there, to break through. Should Marvel completely Wagner-ize Darkholme? Absolutely not.

But he could use some tenderizing :3
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Wed Feb 01, 2012 8:39 pm

Angelique wrote:While I agree that Darkholme's presence in 616 is intriguing and could make for some decent story lines, I don't think he's a fun character and will not until something dreadful happens that slaps some sense into him and gives him a 616 reality check.


Hmmm...if you mean a 616 reality check as in making him more like Wagner, I really don't want to see that happen. Besides, as long as the characters are vastly different, there is still hope for bringing back Wagner -- kinda like Beast and Dark Beast -- there is room for both. A girl can hope. :smirk

To be quite honest, I'd really like to see Darkholme find Mystique in 616 (provided she is alive and kicking again by now) and then maybe shift more to the dark side of things, whilst bringing Wagner back to the X-men. I mean, just think, if they were both around and Darkholme went on a crime spree, Wagner (and the X-men associates) would get the blame. Meh, just my 2 cents.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Angelique » Thu Feb 02, 2012 5:23 am

Sundown wrote:
Angelique wrote:While I agree that Darkholme's presence in 616 is intriguing and could make for some decent story lines, I don't think he's a fun character and will not until something dreadful happens that slaps some sense into him and gives him a 616 reality check.


Hmmm...if you mean a 616 reality check as in making him more like Wagner, I really don't want to see that happen.


Oh, I don't want to see that happen, either- at least not in 616. What I'd like to see is for something to happen that shows him that being on the good side- whatever that is- isn't enough to make him a decent person. He needs to face the reality that he is indeed an evil person. Not a good person who was just a product of his upbringing. Plenty of characters in AoA had it just as rough or worse and didn't end up displaying such a sadistic, callous disregard for life. Then he needs to do something about it and return to the AoA reality a better person- though still very distinct from Wagner.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Thu Feb 02, 2012 7:21 pm

Angelique wrote:
Sundown wrote:
Angelique wrote:While I agree that Darkholme's presence in 616 is intriguing and could make for some decent story lines, I don't think he's a fun character and will not until something dreadful happens that slaps some sense into him and gives him a 616 reality check.


Hmmm...if you mean a 616 reality check as in making him more like Wagner, I really don't want to see that happen.


Oh, I don't want to see that happen, either- at least not in 616. What I'd like to see is for something to happen that shows him that being on the good side- whatever that is- isn't enough to make him a decent person. He needs to face the reality that he is indeed an evil person. Not a good person who was just a product of his upbringing. Plenty of characters in AoA had it just as rough or worse and didn't end up displaying such a sadistic, callous disregard for life. Then he needs to do something about it and return to the AoA reality a better person- though still very distinct from Wagner.


The anti-hero schtick is already well-covered with the X-men I would guess. I like the very dark depiction of Darkholme now, basically because it is different. As I already said, I'm not sure about long-term. I am trying to keep an open mind about how the character develops and I realize he is essentially a blank slate right now due to the minimal AoA background. So far we've only seen him in aggressive scenarios, with the X-Calibre interactions with Mystique being the exception --- though he did slap his own mother....geez.

I take it back, the conversation with Wolverine last issue wasn't really meant to be aggressive per sae, it just took on that tone.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Fri Feb 03, 2012 9:16 pm

UXF #21 is out. Darkholme is still getting panel time and was even written with some "thought boxes" for several pages (I'm not sure of the technical term when the story or situation is briefly told from a particular character's POV). Interesting perspective.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Dedicatedfollower467 » Fri Feb 03, 2012 11:55 pm

To be quite honest, I'd really like to see Darkholme find Mystique in 616 (provided she is alive and kicking again by now) and then maybe shift more to the dark side of things, whilst bringing Wagner back to the X-men. I mean, just think, if they were both around and Darkholme went on a crime spree, Wagner (and the X-men associates) would get the blame. Meh, just my 2 cents.


I like what they've been doing so far with the miniseries "Magneto: Not a Hero," which is all about the major differences between Erik and Joseph, with basically this same exact idea. It would be fun to see a similar sort of story with Nightcrawler: Darkholme goes evil, Wagner comes back, and then it's Nightcrawler versus Nightcrawler. It would be a really fun way to bring Wagner back, too; he has to clear his good name and help his fellow X-Men deal with the blame.

It would be just as much fun to see how the two characters interact with each other, especially when each realizes that the other is what they COULD have been, in different circumstances.

I think the biggest issue for me is that it seems like Marvel thinks giving us Darkholme will be good enough for Wagner fans. There's nothing further from the truth.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Sat Feb 04, 2012 10:47 pm

Dedicatedfollower467 wrote:It would be just as much fun to see how the two characters interact with each other, especially when each realizes that the other is what they COULD have been, in different circumstances.

I think the biggest issue for me is that it seems like Marvel thinks giving us Darkholme will be good enough for Wagner fans. There's nothing further from the truth.


I agree, I'd love to see them interact together. I think it would be a good read.
Right now, as of UXF 21, Darkholme is reminding me a bit of Austen's old portrayal of Northstar for some reason. -.-

I've been reading "Wolverine and the X-Men" as well recently. I'm really enjoying the lighter take on the X-men and it occurred to me that Wagner would be perfect in this title. There's no doubt that Wagner would disapprove of X-Force the same way Beast and Kitty do. He certainly also would not side with Scott's team after Schism. But...he would've made a great addition to this new series and the educational side of the X-Men.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby deadpixiedust » Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:43 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:This is definitely an improvement from a character who was written into a corner. If you would like to remember Nightcrawler as Dave had him, those comics still exist and I'm sure everyone who wants that Kurt still owns them. That's what is great about back-issues and comic stores. They'll never go completely out of style.


Also I see Marvel is pulling a DC. By doing this, Kurt is no longer Dave Cockrum's character, he is a What-If version. Same thing they did with Batman/Superman/Flash/ the rest of DC. They were losing money and couldn't make bank paying the creator rights.

Now they don't have to. Smart. Back-door and a bit underhanded but I'm sure most Johnny-Come-Latelys to comics are not going to be aware of it, and nor should they. That's irrelevant for them, that version of Nightcrawelr (Batman/Superman/Etc...) was not what they got into.


This is a very clever move on Marvel's part.


Wow. That's pretty sad. To commend this. On a message board Dave used to be on no less. I cant believe you are happy with dave being screwed again. You seem more impressed with the business aspects of comics than anything else. By the way, your avatar is pretty if a bit odd and morbid.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby deadpixiedust » Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:02 pm

Indigo_Lady wrote:I agree, the personalities of Darkholme and the original Nightcrawler are so different there is no reasonable way AoA Kurt could come even close. They are nearly diametrically opposed in many aspects. If this this was to have been the original character instead of the 616 Kurt, I would never have been interested in him. I cared about the character of Kurt Wagner, not necessarily his appearance or powers. What makes AoA Kurt any different than the "evil" he is supposedly battling? Kurt had developed as his creator's alter ego. I'm glad Dave didn't live to see what the writers have done to him.

Please don't patronize me by saying that I am only making generalizations because a friend scanned the past issue and sent them to me. I found the whole book distasteful and couldn't read it all. The only thing that would make this Kurt anything close would be for 616 Nightcrawler to take over his body, which I personally still hope some writer will do eventually. This current characterization is like rubbing salt in the wound already dealt by his death, at least for most Nightcrawler fans.

The only book that interests me at all is Wolverine and the X-Men. 616 Kurt would have done well in that book, but I'm not interested in seeing AoA Kurt there. I am losing interest in the whole Marvel Universe considering some of the recent decisions that have been made. I don't think I'm the only Nightcrawler fan that feels that way. However, most of the fans of 616 Nightcrawler at this and other forums I frequent have pretty much stopped posting.




I totally agree. And I like age of apocolaypse but this Kurt is just another "badass" in a sea of "badasses", but if everyone turns dark and edgy its no longer edgy is it?

I'm not easily impressed by cheap gimmicks, the lame 90's has returned. Wow, another apathetic, smartass murderer, so fresh and exciting.

Again, temporarily this could be interesting but in the long run, IMHO - heck no.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Feb 25, 2012 2:28 am


Wow. That's pretty sad. To commend this. On a message board Dave used to be on no less. I cant believe you are happy with dave being screwed again. You seem more impressed with the business aspects of comics than anything else. By the way, your avatar is pretty if a bit odd and morbid.


Dave was a proud papa of his character but, the character they killed off was no longer his. There is no way that character was anything close to what he made, and though I <3'd Wagner in the early 2000's, in his run with Excalibur, in his early years with the Uncanny X-Force, pretty much everything post 2001/2 was a mess and trash. And the character died a terrible death. But it cleaned the slate and is giving everybody some breathing time so the character can maybe one day return, back to his original glory, with all his swashbuckling awesomeness in tact.

Please don't correct me on using a board that I have been a part of for a good nearly 8 years now. Probably longer actually. I was 15/16 when I first joined. I am very well aware Dave used this board, I had many an exchange with him he is dearly missed and was an impressively fantastic person to know, even through just the brief spurts of paragraphs he gave us. In person, I can only imagine how much more charmed I would have been.

To assume that I discredit his work, his legacy, or his character by simply agreeing with Marvel's current methodology and marketing is a direct insult to me. (Or maybe it's just a slight jab, either way --) I think that what you're missing here is Marvel is run by Marvel, not strict fans who wish to see the hay-day of the silver age return.

I would be more than pleased as punch if some of the gimmicks from the late 80's to early 90's returned because that's the generation currently buying the most comics. And if I want Marvel (Or DC even) to stay in business, I want them to use the same methods that got me to read their stuff in the first place.

And you bet your bottom dollar I think Kurt Darkholme into the X-Force and X-Teams in general is one of the smartest decisions they've made in the last 10 years. And I would even say that to foolishly waste his potential and berid of him just for some grand return of Kurt Wagner would both cheapen the current plot/Darkholme's life story as well as piss all over Wagner's death/sacrifice to the X-Men.


Also, this is comics, so it's not really that worth it to get upset about, so just know that at the end of the day, I just love to see my characters in print again. :toothy
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby deadpixiedust » Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:46 pm

You cant cheapen a character like Darkholme who is already a cheap stunt. Our character isnt back if he's completely different. Darkholme we'll always be inferior IMHO. Flash and no substance.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Brimstone Elf » Sun Feb 26, 2012 1:15 am

I like Darkholme...he's interesting...and so is his world. But I would rather have the original fuzzy elf back...back better than ever. I would like to see a new costume...or two...with some added equipment & an epee or two. Maybe he should join X-Factor too...I liked him investigating the occult situations in his series. And I miss him fixing the Blackbird. Jus' my two cents.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 4:35 am

I agree with Brimstone Elf.

I think everything said was in fact was exactly what I would say. Darkholme is a superior character to what Wagner was just before his death, IMHO.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Sundown » Sun Feb 26, 2012 9:24 pm

Well, I'm keeping close tabs on Remender's portrayal of Darkholme. Up until UXF #22 the focus was on showing how different he is than Kurt Wagner. The last issue brings out a point of similarity. I still enjoy the novelty of the character, though I miss the "real" Nightcrawler. I will be utterly disgusted if they try and morph Darkholme into Wagner, however.

I guess as long as they are maintained as having such vastly different personas, there is the possibility of a return of Kurt Wagner, which I am still hoping for. The rumour is flying that Brian Bendis may be taking over some of the X titles. The subject of Nightcrawler has been brought up on his message board.

I'm in agreement that they pulled Darkholme in over Kurt Wagner to work around creator rights, amongst other things. There was also the issue with inconsistent writers and a mind-bogglingly convoluted backstory. Darkholme was a fast easy reboot of the character, which did in fact need something at the time. Nightcrawler had been written into mediocrity since the conclusion of his solo series. What I don't agree with is replacing him.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:21 pm

Well, I'm keeping close tabs on Remender's portrayal of Darkholme. Up until UXF #22 the focus was on showing how different he is than Kurt Wagner. The last issue brings out a point of similarity. I still enjoy the novelty of the character, though I miss the "real" Nightcrawler. I will be utterly disgusted if they try and morph Darkholme into Wagner, however.


I agree with this, in the last issue he was absolutely what I would expect of Wagner. I agree, no one will replace that Nightcrawler, it's impossible to assume otherwise, but really. They are the same person. They have to have SOME similarieis. And if Bendis took over some of the X-titles, that'd be great. I dont' know how big a fan of Wagner he is, and I've never seen him throw a lot of focus into X-Books before, but I know he loves the relationships between the characters.

I'm in agreement that they pulled Darkholme in over Kurt Wagner to work around creator rights, amongst other things. There was also the issue with inconsistent writers and a mind-bogglingly convoluted backstory. Darkholme was a fast easy reboot of the character, which did in fact need something at the time. Nightcrawler had been written into mediocrity since the conclusion of his solo series. What I don't agree with is replacing him.


You know what the crazy thing is? Because Kurt even existed in AoA, forget his last name or upbringing, but his mere conception alone, implies their origins have to be nearly the same. Nightcrawler (Wagner) had been written into a corner and left there, Darkholme is going to bring some interest in the character back. This will probably be similar to the hardcore Silver Age Flash fans vs the Wally West Flash fan. Or Hal & Kyle debates. Eventually, people will deal with it, (I hope) but to me, Darkholme's here for a good long while. And for now, I've been nothing short of impressed with Remender's handeling of the character.
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Re: AoA Nightcrawler (Darkholme) in Uncanny X-Force Teaser I

Postby Angelique » Sun Feb 26, 2012 10:58 pm

Nope. I don't see how anyone who could blithely say stuff about places to be and people to kill could possible be the same person as Kurt Wagner. As for getting around the Cockrums' rights, the agreement was to keep the character of Nightcrawler in use. Throwing Darkholme in there may be in line with the letter of the agreement, the character isn't just the look and costume design, but the personaltiy, and up until this last issue, I found nothing even likeable about Darkholme.

I also think killing off Wagner in the first place was utterly unnecessary. Wagner was not written into a corner he couldn't have just as easily been written out of until he was killed off. He's in a deeper corner now, as death is a bit more difficult to decently reverse than any other kind of baggage. (Yes, I know I'm talking about comic books, but I honestly think the best way to handle comic book death is to avoid it - especially if you need to keep the character in use to maintain the trademark and fulfill any related legal agreements.)
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