I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 03, 2012 2:38 am

If I ever give polarizing dialogue I apologize profusely. My only determined direction is to knock off the hate of people who are enjoying the stories as they are. Sometimes (and not necessarily from you Sundown you're very respectful) I get a vibe of superiority from others who believe that what I (and our constituents on the board here) read for comics is nothing short of selling-out and we are being severely judged for it.
I feel as though my support for a new character (not like I wouldn't have supported Wagner development y'know?) is criticized and nit-picked, challenged even.

There's no need for any of that. My only point is that, in the end, if the change doesn't come? At least we're lucky. We have years and years, decades even, of one of the greatest characters to be conceived in comic book history to go back and read up on.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Slarti » Thu May 03, 2012 2:52 am

And I think that's part of the crux of the situation here. Everyone needs to remember that each member has his or her own right to read what they want -- or not read -- and to enjoy or not enjoy whatever character or incarnation of character he or she wishes. And nobody should be looking down on someone else because of personal tastes in comic characters.

Sometimes we might feel defensive of our positions and it comes out as subtext in posts. So, I just think everyone needs to keep that in mind so that everybody can feel free to share their opinions respectfully.

And yeah, like I said, if a bunch of people want to try a "bring back Wagner" campaign - we can talk about it... though in another thread. ;)
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Thu May 03, 2012 10:10 am

To be honest, I feel like a fence-rider in many ways on the issue. I'm a Nightcrawler fan of over 30 years, and I've seen the character in pretty much every incarnation writers have devised. Some I liked, some I didn't, but I kept reading regardless. The only thing that got me to stop reading was X-Force #26 in 2010, and I didn't pick up anything else from Marvel, period, until Remender decided to bring in a version of Nightcrawler and play around with it in mainstream comics.

The character is definitely NOT Kurt Wagner, but I don't think he should be. He is unexplored territory and is being handled as a type of "What If" personality that fits into the UXF theme of nature vs. nurture. I can see where there is much story potential, but it remains to be seen if that potential is tapped.
Do I like the character and what's been done with him? Yes, so far. (Though he is VERY dark. Then again, I've always been partial to Mystique. I like seeing a version of her son that takes after her.)
In addition, I'm not sure how much staying power Darkholme has, in a setting already glutted with anti-heroes. How long will another one last? However, I think he would possibly have that staying power as a sympathetic villain, much like Magneto of old. (I don't know about you guys, but I was never able to view Eric as "just a bad guy", it was impossible not to feel drawn or sympathetic towards his views at times.) This is just my opinion though.

Does Darkholme replace Kurt Wagner for me? NOPE, not even close. No character ever will. Not Bamfs, not KidCrawler, Evo-Crawler, Roguecrawler or any of the others floating around.

Whether you want to blame writer indifference, Marvel politics, a nightmarish spider-web of a backstory, the anti-hero syndrome or Nightcrawler being a casualty of shock story-telling, Kurt Wagner is currently not in the books. For all we know, editors might have made the call based on fans not being able to agree on what version of the character they wanted to see (swashbuckler, priest, comic relief, etc). It was certainly a long-time debate in fandom.
God yes, I want to see the character returned. He is a breath of fresh air and light in an otherwise dark and sometimes depressing Marvel universe. With his convoluted story twists, his potential for development is far from over.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Threetoe » Sun Oct 14, 2012 4:49 am

Nightcrawler, Kurt Wagner, was the character that got me into comics. It doesn't make sense that I'd support Marvel's current decisions and direction, when my most favorite Marvel super hero is no longer a part of it with the little money I have.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby neling4 » Thu Mar 14, 2013 6:40 am

Sundown wrote:The original Nightcrawler, Kurt Wagner, was the heart and soul of the X-Men. After the events of AvX, is there any chance we'll see his return? WatXM is currently one of my favourite titles and it seems he'd be perfect in it.
asked by ----------2 days ago

ask a ?
2 hours ago
TomBrevoort

Sorry, but this is another after AvX question, and I just don't want to answer those at the moment. I will say that it is sometimes a bit maddening that readers as a whole say that death has become worthless in the Marvel Universe because everybody comes back--and then many of them stump for their favorite characters to come back from teh dead. Bit of a mixed message there.


I don't give a dang how worthless death has become in the MU and neither do I care if every other character in the MU dies and is reborn twice a day, I just want Kurt back...without Azzy.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sat Mar 23, 2013 11:06 pm

Shit I'll take Azzy if they dress him up and salvage that shitty story.

Everything can be fixed, just fix it already. I'm looking at you Jason Aaron. ;)
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu May 16, 2013 1:45 pm

Alright, so I've asked this guy like... fuck it feels like 10 times but it probably has been no more than 5, about why Marvel chose to kill off all the Nightcrawlers.

I asked him if the character personally irritated the head-hanchos, I asked if the fanbase upset him when Kurt died and now they want to stick to it. I asked him if the copyrights were difficult, I asked him if the characters seemed implausible and they were setting up a major paradigm change. I told him I realized if it was revealing something he can at least re-assure me.
Nothing.

He overlooked the question each time. THEN

today he chose to answer a very angry, negatively worded question by a complete hack and I don't really see the point in doing that except so he can say "look, people attack me". Which is not the case, I genuinely (and kindly) asked him about this.

Anyways, this is the entirety of both question and response from Mr. Brevoort's Tumblr page.

Not only does he fail to answer the ACTUAL question, but he also takes a couple digs at the guy, which I find to be distasteful. The guy was not being a jack-off, he just worded the question rather cynically and directed his frustration a bit too sharply towards Brevoort.

So, in other words, have at it. I've tried to dissuade you guys before, but at this point he's purposely being a jack-ass. I don't like to admit it but it's true, so if you have questions you feel you deserve answers to, being you buy their product and want to enjoy it, then heave-ho.

Again, those dead are Ultimate Nightcrawler, AoA Darkholme, Kid-Crawler from X-Treme X-Men, 616 Kurt Wagner, and X-Men Noir Nightcrawler.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Thu May 16, 2013 4:51 pm

Good luck to anyone who tries. Maybe if more than one or two people are writing in, they might eventually listen. I'll be glad to provide both the email addresses and snail mail ones, for those who want it. I'd suggest emailing Lowe (X-Men editor), Perlmutter, Fine and Robert Iger from Disney. Brevoort is the Avengers editor and probably doesn't have much say in who gets used in X-Men, though I could be wrong. Several of them also respond to questions on twitter including Lowe, Liu and Pak (since it was them who wrote the stories that killed the last two AU Crawlers).

Right now, it's hard not to feel like Marvel is deliberately trying to alienate fans of the character. Even when Jean Grey was dead, there were a couple of AU variants in use.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri May 17, 2013 1:52 pm

A couple more Nightcrawler comments from Brevoort today, for anyone interested.

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/po ... eath#notes

http://brevoortformspring.tumblr.com/po ... railing-at
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed May 22, 2013 3:53 am

I'm assuming someone from here must've asked that first one, being that this was what a few of us have been harping on. Could be wrong, maybe we're not the only crack-pot conspiracy theorists?

All I know is, if enough of us make a ruckus, he will at some point, -- perhaps even just in passing to Aaron, Bendis, who-the-hell-ever, briefly say "Man those Nightcrawler fans are really upset about the other multi-verse 'Crawlers gettin' the boot..."

and whether he finishes that thought with "so we should do something to show we care/include the character again if he gets so much buzz" or doesn't finish the thought at all,

the ball is officially rolling and the discussion has been had outloud, in the corporate office. Where someone will think about it and at some point eventually (hopefully) address it.

.... My friends bought me the Blue Lantern ring of Hope for a reason, y'know.


What I just wish they would understand is they didn't just "X-Terminate" Nightcrawler and his counterparts, they're sort of "X-Terminating" his fanbase. And let's say all of us, collectively, give the current comic market maybe... $22,000 monthly. That's nothing. Drop in the bucket to them. Irrelevant.

But other fanbases will take notice to how we're treated/how we reacted. I've even started taking to calling it "The Nightcrawler Treatment" or "Going out like a BAMF" whenever characters die in any book belonging to the "Big 2".
Characters die all the time in comics but when you take the time to introduce multiple versions of this character, build readership, coerce trust, and then execute all other versions of said character? That's a bit brutal. It is. And maybe they have some big plan, but boy I hope they execute it soon. 'Cause I'm being told Ultimate Universe might get the boot soon and I'll be super pissed if my Miles Morales doesn't see the end of 2013.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Wed May 22, 2013 10:45 am

Ult_Sm86 wrote:I'm assuming someone from here must've asked that first one, being that this was what a few of us have been harping on. Could be wrong, maybe we're not the only crack-pot conspiracy theorists?

All I know is, if enough of us make a ruckus, he will at some point, -- perhaps even just in passing to Aaron, Bendis, who-the-hell-ever, briefly say "Man those Nightcrawler fans are really upset about the other multi-verse 'Crawlers gettin' the boot..."

and whether he finishes that thought with "so we should do something to show we care/include the character again if he gets so much buzz" or doesn't finish the thought at all,

the ball is officially rolling and the discussion has been had outloud, in the corporate office. Where someone will think about it and at some point eventually (hopefully) address it.


Possible, as far as the first question. It might've come from someone on the Nightcrawler appreciation thread on CBR, too. It's pretty active.

As far as the "right" people hearing this or being aware of it, a better bet is to either email/mail them directly or maybe ask them on their own twitter accounts. Expecting Brevoort to care enough to pass the information on is a long shot, considering he is known for gaining personal entertainment from baiting fans.

Twitter(public, where they answer questions from fans):
@nick_lowe_
@JoeQuesada
@axelalonsomarv
@BRIANMBENDIS
@jasonaaron
@majoriemliu (since she helped write X-Termination)
---------
Company emails: NLowe@marvel.com, aalonso@marvel.com, jquesada@marvel.com, ip@marvel.com (Isaac Perlmutter CEO)
--------------
Snail mail:
*name of person you want to address* at Marvel Entertainment LLC
135 W 50th St
7th Floor
New York, NY 10020
---------
Robert Iger (CEO Disney robert.a.iger@disney.com)
The Walt Disney Company
500 S. Buena Vista St.
Burbank, CA 91521

All of these are public or company related contact points, not personal ones, though the email addresses and twitters obviously go directly to the person.

Ult_Sm86 wrote:What I just wish they would understand is they didn't just "X-Terminate" Nightcrawler and his counterparts, they're sort of "X-Terminating" his fanbase. And let's say all of us, collectively, give the current comic market maybe... $22,000 monthly. That's nothing. Drop in the bucket to them. Irrelevant.

But other fanbases will take notice to how we're treated/how we reacted. I've even started taking to calling it "The Nightcrawler Treatment" or "Going out like a BAMF" whenever characters die in any book belonging to the "Big 2".
Characters die all the time in comics but when you take the time to introduce multiple versions of this character, build readership, coerce trust, and then execute all other versions of said character? That's a bit brutal. It is. And maybe they have some big plan, but boy I hope they execute it soon. 'Cause I'm being told Ultimate Universe might get the boot soon and I'll be super pissed if my Miles Morales doesn't see the end of 2013.


If you take just the particular fansite of Nightscrawlers as an example, it has around 2000 members who have joined over the years, indicating a fairly high degree of investment in the character. When I first started reading here, the site was very active, but no, I never recall 2000 people posting or anything. If you take this tiny little corner of the internet as maybe a 5% representation of the actual fan base of the character, that's 40k readers who have possibly walked away from the hobby and stopped paying their 3.99 several times a month to the company. When Marvel title sales have fallen 500k(issues, not dollars) per month when you compare figures from March of 2005 to figures from March of 2013 -- the advent of the new direction of the franchise -- it doesn't seem smart to discount old fans so readily. /shrug

There was no financial or creative sense in killing off all Nightcrawler variants. Period. Killing one based on a story is one thing, killing them all is another. The last three were even all axed using the "noble sacrifice" bull crap, with Darkholme being set up as unequivocally suicidal first! How is it a good message to set someone up as wanting to die, then killing him off? It's mind-boggling. And these are books they profess to be targeting at young readers.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Angelique » Thu May 23, 2013 12:02 am

Another thing to consider is that this little fansite had enough impact to actually be mentioned in the letters page of Nightcrawler 12. Believe me, Marvel knows we exist. I consider it a possibility that, while they knew Nightcrawler was very well loved and had a lot of fans, they simply didn't get how invested fans have been in the character. After all, it's just a comic book character, right?

Wrong. To me and to those who've been privileged to know the Cockrums, Nightcrawler wasn't just a comic book character. Nightcrawler was a Catholic mutant version of Dave and the most memorable part of his legacy. You don't show respect for your late, great creators by killing off their legacy.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Only Skin » Thu May 23, 2013 12:14 am

Angelique wrote:Another thing to consider is that this little fansite had enough impact to actually be mentioned in the letters page of Nightcrawler 12. Believe me, Marvel knows we exist. I consider it a possibility that, while they knew Nightcrawler was very well loved and had a lot of fans, they simply didn't get how invested fans have been in the character. After all, it's just a comic book character, right?

Wrong. To me and to those who've been privileged to know the Cockrums, Nightcrawler wasn't just a comic book character. Nightcrawler was a Catholic mutant version of Dave and the most memorable part of his legacy. You don't show respect for your late, great creators by killing off their legacy.


You are incredible. <3
I really just wanted to quote this because I really like what you had to say, but knew I had to say SOMETHING. So, there. You are incredible.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Angelique » Thu May 23, 2013 5:30 am

Wow! Thanks!
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Only Skin » Fri May 24, 2013 10:58 pm

As a new Nightcrawler fan and comic reader, I am going to be contacting SOMEONE because, well, you all ready for the cheese? Here it goes, remember, I am new to Nightcrawler, but already love the character:
See, most of you on Nightscrawlers have had DECADES with Nightcrawler. Most of you have grown WITH the character and gotten to read his adventures each month.
Me? I've only JUST met him.

This may sound like I am going to humanize him (or make him real), but honestly?
I know he dies. And it sucks because I JUST met him.
Depending upon how fast I read his material, or material that includes him, I may only have him for a few months.
It's kind of like, just meeting someone, falling into extreme like with them, only to have them die when you just learned them.
Sound cheesy? Sound like I'm stuck in my head in another world? I don't mean for it to. I just get so attached to characters.

So, now, I'm going to read him, knowing I'll NEVER have the years that you all had with him. I'll only have months. You all have memories. I am just beginning.
I feel like I won't have the time or understanding you all got to have of him as a character.
It's why my Kindle Fire has been stuck on, like, the third issue of the 12 issues volume 3 book. I am holding off reading him. Not that I just do not care for that portion of his self-titled stuff (because I'm going to read it anyway because it's NIGHTCRAWLER), but because I want him around longer.

I know that sounds all selfish and cheesy, but I avoid reading about HOW he died. I don't want to hear it yet. I want to know him first. I want TIME. I don't want that "My heart is broken because my favorite soul character was just killed and he's gone forever." feeling just yet. I want to hold onto him as he still is to me: alive. Because I don't know better yet.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri May 24, 2013 11:17 pm

A beautifully written reason why Marvel should use the character, Only Skin. I'd say we can all recall when we first "met" Nightcrawler as well as the impact the character has had on us. He's probably touched the hearts and minds of hundreds of thousands of readers -- if not millions -- over 35 years. It's incredible, when you think about it -- Dave's legacy. If we keep fighting to convince Marvel to bring him back in some way, maybe one day he'll have the chance to touch more hearts and minds.

I suppose that's why I keep writing in, writing blogs and being a nuisance. Marvel won't know unless they're told. They look at numbers. If people just walk away and stop buying, they won't know why. Heck, they might think they should add more Cyclops focused stories because of it. :shocked Maybe they think Nightcrawler fans are a dying breed now. Maybe they just hope we are.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun May 26, 2013 5:11 pm

Well Sundown, if we are a dying breed (and I wouldn't be against the argument that says we are), it's because they're sorta killing him, and his fanbase, off.

Brevoort, some time ago, did a CBR interview on the death of Ultimate Peter Parker. His responses are intriguing when held in comparison to Kurt Wagner and... check out the graphic they had Skottie Young doodle up for him?
Image

This is the interview

I still am not looking to be resentful about this though; resentment is the only thing that eats it's own container. Y'know? I'm not angry at him, I don't hate him. He's being a bit thick-headed, but perhaps we are too. I dunno, ... we'll see how this pans out. Maybe they ARE leading into something.


He also recently answered another Nightcrawler question...
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Sun May 26, 2013 5:33 pm

Yeah, they do seem to be trying to kill us off, or it feels that way. It's hard to not take recent events as them purposely targeting Nightcrawler fans and laughing behind their hands.
Honestly, I'm not someone who is going to stomp up and down, gnash my teeth, pull my hair out and shriek "USE THE VERSION OF NIGHTCRAWLER I LIKE BEST AND PUT HIM IN THE FLAGSHIP NOW!" I'm actually fine if they want to explore new creative directions with him, within reason. I didn't much care for the child version, but that was for two reasons -- one, child characters end up very limited and ultimately disposable in the franchise. Look what's happened to New Mutants, both sets, and Generation Hope. We have a ton of kids wandering around as wallpaper, hinging on whatever writer's whim. The second is because I don't think long-term iconic characters should be de-aged. It's a cop-out. That's neither here nor there, though.
I'd be pleased enough with reading about the character in some out-of-the-mainstream title, if Bendis and crew want to keep salivating over the original X-Men for now. I would just like to see him used SOMEWHERE, with some real effort towards development. It seems crazy for them not to.

I'd LOVE to see them bring back Kurt Wagner and make him relevant again -- and I really hope they will -- but I'm okay with variations in the meantime.

As for the interview, it seems like it would be better marketing strategy to rely on good stories and interesting characters rather than gimmicks, but what do I know?
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Only Skin » Sun May 26, 2013 6:44 pm

Just seems like the whole thing is a huge mockery of character and fans. The entire pretentious attitude of some writers/big wigs/folks-with-say is so freaking nauseating.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 3:23 am

Sometimes I'm on his side, sometime's I'm not.
This is one where I was.

Question from BeTheMedia: Hey Tom, I want to say Bravo on the Nightcrawler build-up. You guys are really pulling the carpet out from under us. We were so angry two weeks ago and now we're ecstatic just from one panel in an issue of Wolverine & the X-Men. Have I mentioned how much I love Jason Aaron's ability to build a story across multiple issues. Seriously, he might be the next Grant Morrison. And may I say thank you for 6 splendid issues this last week. Any hope of a Northstar solo?


Response:
Glad you’re happier this week, and glad you’ve been enjoying the books! No plans for a Northstar series at the moment, but who knows down the line?
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri Jun 07, 2013 10:57 am

At least it wasn't a venomous response. I wish he'd said more, though. :P
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:27 pm

He didn't deny my excitement (which would be silly even if I was mislead), but he didn't address it really at all. To me, that's a good thing. It means he's keeping secrets.

Secrets that could lead up to the inevitable return of Mr. Wagner.
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Sundown » Fri Jun 07, 2013 1:45 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:He didn't deny my excitement (which would be silly even if I was mislead), but he didn't address it really at all. To me, that's a good thing. It means he's keeping secrets.

Secrets that could lead up to the inevitable return of Mr. Wagner.


We can hope so :)
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Fri Jun 07, 2013 9:59 pm

I'm just gonna go ahead and change my Avatar to the Blue Lantern Flash now...

because I'm just so damn hopeful.


--- EDITED ---


This is terrible. Someone had the audacity and the gall to say this to Mr. Brevoort:

You've lost your touch. I'm counting down the days you leave marvel. You're horrible, talentless, fat, and ugly.. Please do some good and end your life, thank you. Ps your wife looks like a crack addict everytime you post pictures of her I puke.


I don't care how angry you are, this guy makes comic books, he's not Hitler. No one deserves that kind of verbal punishment.

His response is as classy as it needed to be:

Ladies and gentlemen, my fan base!
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
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Re: I asked Tom Brevoort about Nightcrawler

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Thu Sep 05, 2013 5:01 am

Tom has been sharing some of his collections of artwork for quite some time on his OTHER Tumblr page set purely for sharing art pieces in comics.

He recently unveiled a treasure trove of Cockrum art from the 1970's. this Iron Man cover is great too and don't even get me started on this beautiful SPIDER-WOMAN piece! Someone tell Freja!
R.I.P. Ultimate Peter Parker :spidey 6/22/11 USM#160
Read my reviews on SuperiorSpiderTalk.com! I'm a real, honest-to-goodness, published comic reviewer!
"It's not your fault. Listen to me. It's NOT. YOUR. FAULT." - a seismologist getting all territorial
┗[© ♒ ©]┛ ROBOT HAS NO USE FOR FEELINGS
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Ult_Sm86
Dread Pirate
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Posts: 5804
Joined: Tue Dec 04, 2007 7:59 pm
Location: Boogie Wonderland
Title: Passive Antagonist
Nightscrawlearth Character: :hellboy :r2

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