spirituality

Blue_Lotus · Post by **Blue_Lotus** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:02 am

I first got interested in Kurt because of his spirituality, but the Christian thing doesn't really work for me. I think he would have been more effective as a Buddhist, or a Taoist. Does anyone agree? Or has this topic been worn down before?

Fuzzy · Post by **Fuzzy** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 1:58 am

interesting- but i dunno, theres no real reason for him to be Bhuddist or (especially) Taoist- there arent many Taoists these days- besides, if hes not Christian, it doesn't play off against his demonic appearance- writers love that kind of opposite

nightcrawler834 · Post by **nightcrawler834** » Mon Jan 27, 2003 8:45 pm

i agree with fuzzy, Kurt being christian is the antithesis of his demonic appearance, and that's a good thing in my eyes

Erynne · Post by **Erynne** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 4:54 am

I like him as a Christian. It's cool because it's the total opposite of what you think he'd be.

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:09 am

i like him as a Christian too... partly bcos i am one, and vary few comic writers really make up characters with an *actual religion/faith* of any stripe, let alone Christianity!

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 12:01 pm

you have got to be kidding me. TRY and find a well portrayed atheist character. go on, try. there WAS colossus, but no they went and made him *gasp* christian. there WAS Wolverine. oops, he's christian too now, if you can believe it. sure most of them don't go around parading thier religion as much as poor Kurt has been foced to, but most characters unless specifically stated otherwise are pretty obviously written to be loosely practicing christians of some type.

there is that new character in the Truth, he's cool and thankfully, Jill, Kurts future GF will be atheist. I am so glad for that. (2 reasons she is MY character, and therefore i am glad she has the same belief system as me, and i am glad to see another atheist character who isn't portrayed as one of the bad guys) as for Kurt, i don't really care. it was never a selling point with me, though when it became THE defining trait of his character, i hated that.

Menshevik · Post by **Menshevik** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 5:08 pm

Where did they make Wolverine a Christian?

It does seem to me that superhero comics largely avoided the subject of religion and for the most part still steer away from it, so that in most cases it is very hard to pinpoint what faith a character belongs to. In many cases you only get a clue when s/he gets married or attends a relative's funeral, or you get to learn about it negatively (e.g. because Captain America/Steve Rogers got a slightly cool reception from the parents of his former fiancee Bernie Rosenthal we know he isn't Jewish). So for most their belief system is not really much of a factor in their life, and you have to conclude that an awful lot of them may belong to an organized religion, but they do not practice it, and even very general religious themes are only rarely treated in as far as they affect characters' psyches (that e.g. Peter Parker speaks of his difficulties believing in a soul and an afterlife in "Soul of the Hunter" is very much an exception). I find it hard to even use the word "portrayal" in most cases.

So I found Chris Claremont's first X-Men run very refreshing, because he did not shy away from touching his characters' beliefs in his stories, to show how Kurt as a Catholic copes with what he experiences (e.g. his crisis of faith after encountering the Beyonder) and contrast it with the way e.g. agnostic Logan, Atheist Piotr or Goddess-believer Ororo react to the same or similar events, or to mention that living through the Holocaust made Magneto turn his back on his God. (IIRC, practicing Christians seem to be quite a minority among CC's characters, there was basically Kurt, Rahne, Berto, and Sam, while e.g. Rogue said "if ah believed in God ah'd beg for forgiveness" in UXM #203).

Tilman

::wolvie::mags::colossus::wolfsbane::rogue::tb3::storm:

jogurt · Post by **jogurt** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 6:23 pm

I think its ok that Kurti believe in God. He shouldn´t be a priest (but he will not stay into priesthood so its i don´t say much of it) But actually I see nothing bad in believe in god. And i guess he is an open minded christ:)
BTW: you can buddist and christian by the same time. (or jewish or moslemor whatever) Buddism is a way of living. There is NO believe in God in buddism.But nothing against other ways of living or god.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:17 pm

I think than comic characters can have a religion of their own, but why all of them had to have one religion? i found it quite absurd for example as i read than wolverine is christian...i don't find a point in that, his life style is not the most right for that kind of religion so why the heck is he a christian?
and btw Kurt's not christian is catholic.

nightcrawler834 · Post by **nightcrawler834** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 9:37 pm

yes he is catholic, and that's a denomination of christianity

Dark Rose Siren · Post by **Dark Rose Siren** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:40 pm

i don't think wolverine is christian.-remember in the iss when the x-men fought dracula when he tryed to get storm, he tryed to make a cross & D said said that "only a believer" could use it.also rem kitty tryed to use the cross & it didn't work.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Jan 28, 2003 10:44 pm

like i said he was originally atheist/agnostic, as was Colossus. but in recent years they have retconned it. Wolverine has been shown recently to say prayers to God.

Erynne · Post by **Erynne** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 6:01 am

Really? wolverine doesn't really strike me as Christian. I thought with all his Japanese background, he'd be a religion from that culture if any.

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 8:04 am

: Wolvie and Colossuss are Christians? when? i always thought they *were* atheists, (and this is Canon Marvel and not the variants)
gah... need sleep, i wanna get the marvel comics in the newsagents again...

Magic Rabbit · Post by **Magic Rabbit** » Wed Jan 29, 2003 10:17 pm

Wolverine’s a Christian?

: When did that happen?? Oh my, why can’t the writers leave well enough alone? Colossus and Logan being aesthesis made perfect sense: Colossus was raised in the USSR (Communism frowned on organized religion) and Wolverine was just such a jaded person that he couldn’t believe in a higher power after all the cr*p he had seen. I liked that they both were like this. Then suddenly Claremont (on his 2nd run) gets on his glorifying Christianity kick and we get Colossus talking about “the Lord’s day”, Rogue unexpectedly finding Jesus (or at least talking as if she did) and Nightcrawler suddenly becoming a priest! I have nothing against Christianity or any other religion mind you, I just don’t like the way it was portrayed as the best things since sliced bread. When other religions are still being treated like stereotypes dispensing misinformation (look at the way Wicca/Paganism has been treated in the Xmen) or only mentioned as footnotes to a character (Kitty’s Judaism - not in the begining, but later on) then to exalt one religion – and not even get it correct to boot! – is just sloppy writing, IMHO.

Now as for Kurt – I have always thought that the forced irony of the demon guy being a man of god was just shoddy. I would have found more irony in Iceman coming out of the closet or the White Queen turning to Islam. I don’t mind seeing him have faith but it shouldn’t be the defining element of who he is. I could actually buy into Kurt looking towards Buddhism, Paganism or becoming agonistic (he was raised by a Pagan so I can see it).

Erynne · Post by **Erynne** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 4:53 am

Naw....I think he should stay Christian.

little Blue Lucy · Post by **little Blue Lucy** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 8:42 am

It'd be nice if they had more Jewish characters, or at least played on (so to speak) Kitty's faith more.

Anyway the whole Nighty religion thing just doesn't work for me. As I've said I don't know how many times he wasn't even originally that religious. I mean it didn't play in at all. Personally I feel Kurt as a priest just didn't work. It's not really him, and Dave doesn't like Nighty being all religious either so that should say something.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 11:22 am

very good point Lucy. Kurt went for years our time, YEARS, without showing the slightest inclination to being religious. he worked fine then, those wee some of his best moments. he doesn't need it now.

re Wolverine. maybe i was reading too much into it, but Tieri had him say prayers to god, I'd have to look up specific issues. and then there was that whole thing where he was in the afterlife (with Colossus no less!) and while that could easily be written off as an oxygen deprived brain making up a lil fantasy, it seemed to me that he was intended to be in the real afterlife. as an athiest, something which he should have had no belief in at all.

Menshevik · Post by **Menshevik** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 1:19 pm

Kurt's spirituality has been part of Chris Claremont's vision of Kurt for more than two decades now. According to what John Byrne wrote on an AOL forum a few years back, Chris Claremont originally intended Kurt to be Jewish, but he (JB) deliberately sabotaged that idea by making Kitty Pryde Jewish when they introduced her (1979). Subsequently CC made Kurt a Catholic, which IIRC first was played up in the issues after the death of the Phoenix and in the annual where the X-Men are transported to Dante's Inferno by Margali.

What does the fact that in the previous five years' existence of Nightcrawler was not visibly spiritual tell us? Really not terribly much. You have to remember that until 1978 the title was bi-monthly and that at the time issues had fewer pages (hence the additional pages put into the CLASSIC X-MEN reprints), so space was kind of limited (especially after John Byrne came on board and started to push Kurt in the background for Logan's benefit). And at that time a superhero's faith simply was not done, when Claremont started to have Kurt wrestle with his and discuss it with Logan, he was in effect breaking a taboo of the genre.
And of course there is the question if Logan would ever have mentioned his Agnosticism if not for Kurt's Catholicism, because by the conventions of the day he had up until then never given a hint of not being religious. Anyway, given Kurt's history, I did not find it wildly implausible that after overcoming his crisis in faith he should decide to try for the priesthood. Not that I really cared for that particular development.

Magic Rabbit: Kurt was not raised by a Pagan, but by a practicing Catholic who also was a witch. (Margali could be seen at prayer in a Dr. Strange story that appeared around that time, IIRC either in DOCTOR STRANGE vol. 2 #58 or 59, written by Roger Stern). Which makes sense given the religious affiliations of real-life Gypsies and the fact that Margali sent Kurt to such an exact simile of the Catholic hell as portrayed by Dante.

Tilman

::colossus::wolvie:

msgt · Post by **msgt** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 6:37 pm

I've always liked that Kurt is Catholic/Christian and if he doesn't become a priest and stops going in that direction I hope he never loses his faith.

I don't want him to become an atheist and if this new girlfriend character is one, then I just hope to goodness that Austen doesn't take Kurt in that direction.

I'm glad that there apparentely are a lot of christian characters.

Thats very cool.

Mike

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Thu Jan 30, 2003 9:21 pm

That's a good point Lucy, and i also remember than Dave said somewhere in the board than he never intended to make Kurt a religious character, it was a CC idea, so i like to think to myself sometimes about Kurt as not being as religious as they trying to make look like, I think personally than religion is a very private matter for every individual and they have to carry with their own religious relationship by private and not exposing it to everybody, religion is a hard topic for discuss because EVERYBODy has a unique point of view about it, even in the same family and i believe than its better to touch it on a light way, everybody has a respectful and interesting point of view, and sometimes exposing it in the comics like this its kinda boring.

Magic Rabbit · Post by **Magic Rabbit** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:00 am

[quote]Originally posted by Menshevik
Magic Rabbit: Kurt was not raised by a Pagan, but by a practicing Catholic who also was a witch. (Margali could be seen at prayer in a Dr. Strange story that appeared around that time, IIRC either in DOCTOR STRANGE vol. 2 #58 or 59, written by Roger Stern). Which makes sense given the religious affiliations of real-life Gypsies and the fact that Margali sent Kurt to such an exact simile of the Catholic hell as portrayed by Dante.

Tilman
[/quote]

Margali is called a Witch. A Witch is a member of a religion that practices nature based beliefs called Wicca. Wicca is classified as Pagan. Pagan religions (and Wicca in particular) are open to having metaphorical interpretations of other religions be incorporated into personal belief systems (similar to Buddhist doctrine regarding personal truths). Based on the teachings of Catholicism one cannot be a Witch and be Catholic. That person would be excommunicated immediately. And Witches actually do pray, BTW. So Margali praying doesn’t denote in-and-of itself that she is Catholic or even believes in Catholicism. That fact that Margali is a Gypsy (Roma) means that she probably has a mixture of beliefs due to the fact that the Roma wondered throughout Europe assimilating bits of culture into their own.

I personally saw the Dante’s Inferno allegory that Margali wiped up to be something more along the lines of: she knew this would hurt him, regardless of how ‘real’ this account of damnation was, and that was her point: hurting Kurt not making his vision of damnation to be correct. I also saw not indication that she believed this to be what a “hell” was supposed to be. Even Catholics don’t buy Dante’s version of the 7 rings of hell. So it wasn’t even a Catholic version of hell, but a well-documented fiction.

[quote]Originally posted by kurtlover
That's a good point Lucy, and i also remember than Dave said somewhere in the board than he never intended to make Kurt a religious character, it was a CC idea, so i like to think to myself sometimes about Kurt as not being as religious as they trying to make look like, I think personally than religion is a very private matter for every individual and they have to carry with their own religious relationship by private and not exposing it to everybody, religion is a hard topic for discuss because EVERYBODy has a unique point of view about it, even in the same family and i believe than its better to touch it on a light way, everybody has a respectful and interesting point of view, and sometimes exposing it in the comics like this its kinda boring. [/quote]

I agree. It’s a very difficult subject to portray in a medium like comics. There is a fine line that a writer must have to walk in order not to offend or misrepresent a particular religion.

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 12:31 am

Indeed Magic, and besides i also think than a comic writter has to do extra research to represent certain religion because a religion represented on a wrong way could hurt certain kind of people, and also its extra work for the writter, in fact if i were a writter myself i wouldn't touch that kind of topics on my scripts...There's also extra work for the penciler, because he/she has to draw the right way certain religious clothes, and its more work for him/her too...

Menshevik · Post by **Menshevik** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 9:04 am

[quote]Originally posted by Magic Rabbit
Margali is called a Witch. A Witch is a member of a religion that practices nature based beliefs called Wicca. Wicca is classified as Pagan. Pagan religions (and Wicca in particular) are open to having metaphorical interpretations of other religions be incorporated into personal belief systems (similar to Buddhist doctrine regarding personal truths). Based on the teachings of Catholicism one cannot be a Witch and be Catholic. That person would be excommunicated immediately. And Witches actually do pray, BTW. So Margali praying doesn’t denote in-and-of itself that she is Catholic or even believes in Catholicism. That fact that Margali is a Gypsy (Roma) means that she probably has a mixture of beliefs due to the fact that the Roma wondered throughout Europe assimilating bits of culture into their own.

[/quote]

Margali is called a witch because she is a woman who practices magic; the word has after all always (also) been used in non-Wiccan contexts, non-European contexts (you talk of African witches and witch-doctors) as well as fiction (e.g. Tolkien's Witch King of Angmar or Baum's Good Witch of the North, or the witches in Terry Pratchett's Discworld novels, who don't believe in gods because it only encourages them). And I have not yet heard of Roma Wiccans. In Margali's case I would also say that "witch" is used here to translate whatever term is used to describe her in German and/or Romany. (In German it is most likely "Hexe" (usually translated as "witch", but this word in all probability originally meant "hedge-elf") or "Zauberin" (sorceress)). Margali for a time also laid claim to the title of "Sorceress/Sorcerer Supreme", which in Marvel's reality is tied up with the entirely fictional Vishanti.

I thought it unnecessary to mention that the prayer scene was pretty Catholic in form, even though I suspect it was written by a non-Catholic. In DR. STRANGE #58 Margali prays: "Holy Mother forgive me. In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost... Amen".

Ever since his spirituality came up in the comics, he was portrayed as Catholic, and that he is a Catholic because he was raised as one in his adoptive family seems the most plausible explanation to me. I see no reason to believe that Margali was ever intended to be portrayed as Wiccan or Pagan and think that if it had been, we'd have seen discussions on religious topics between Kurt on the one hand and Margali and Amanda on the other. One should also keep in mind that the rules are different in the Marvel Universe. Sorcery actually works there and cannot be dismissed as a superstition, pagan and fictional deities and Judeo-Christian demons are real persons there, even if their godhood or demonhood is not officially acknowledged (vide Thor, Hercules & co.).

Tilman

:

:mystique:

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Fri Jan 31, 2003 10:10 pm

Originally posted by Magic Rabbit
Margali is called a Witch. A Witch is a member of a religion that practices nature based beliefs called Wicca.

Wiccans call themselves Witches but not all Withces are Wicca.
Kinda like the "All mammals are animals but not all animals are mammals" thing.

As Menshevik already illustrated, the term Witch is used widely to describe someone (usually a woman) who has knowlede of magic.
The word "Witch" comes from the same roots as "wit" so as do describe someone of great knowledge or intuition.

I don't think anyone's ever said what Margali's religious beliefs are, but I wouldn't assume she's Wiccan.