Uncanny #428

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:44 am

so. did we like it? hate it? what did you all think of Azazel?

me, i love it, but i am a tad biased

just remember - 20 years ago was the EDITORS, not Chuck.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:31 am

Sorry Bamfette,

I hated it.

Stereotypical demon, come on.

I want my happy-go-lucky swashbuckler back

But when he finds out you know he's going to suffer so much angst over it.
(If he doesn't it'll really be out of character)

I think I'm going to go lock myself in my room and reread my Excalibur collection

sevati · Post by **sevati** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 2:50 pm

Originally posted by Bamfette
just remember - 20 years ago was the EDITORS, not Chuck.

Was Mystique being the ex-wife of Sabertooth the editors too? *grumbles and points to intro page*

I loved it. Really. It helps explain why Mystique does what she does and hates humans. I loved little squished babyKurt at the edge of that one panel. The artist really made him look newborn there (I thought the first babyKurt shot was creepy).

I however didn't like most of the art of blue-skinned Mystique. They drew her stunning as Raven Wagner, but when blue they gave her a caveman forehead... I can understand drawing someone scary when they're laughing maniacally, but come on! And I hope it's explained why Raven could be so in love, then just throw Kurt over the waterfall. She may be a vindictive bitch, but that's a bit much, yes? Hide him somewhere then come back for him. My maternal insticts are wanting to beat her to a bloody pulp now that I think about it.

Oh, Jill? Did you tone-down Azzy's skincolor in photoshop before posting that pic? It looked less orangey-red to me after I compared it with the comic.

Born Blue · Post by **Born Blue** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:01 pm

Other than the fact that it looks craptastic. I was going to purchase it in the store today, but the store up here is having a sell where its buy one, get a second book for a quarter. So I’m waiting until next week when more books are out.

Anyways. . . Here’s what I gathered from going over the book in the store.

For starters, Mystique seemed way out of character. From glancing at it in the store she seemed to act like a crazed jackal, laughing hysterically and revealing her appearance at times that seemed unnecessary. Like, you think she would be smart enough to not shape change at certain times because he could compromise her identity.

Secondly, if I’m not mistaken, is Kurt’s daddy a demon. . .! I hope not. If so that would be WAY over-the-top in my eyes. We didn’t need to start stretching off into demons and such. This ranks right up there with Corsair. Just too much unnecessary clutter.

And finally, what’s up with the teleporting baby? If Kurt’s daddy is a demon (or whatever the hell that guy was) that would easily explain why his powers activated at such a young age. Technically, you probably wouldn’t even call them “powers” since his abilities would be his natural state. But last I remember, Mystique said that he did indeed go into the water, and a teleporting baby still comes off as being silly.

I had a feeling Chuck might go overboard with this story, and it appears I was right.

MabusRex · Post by **MabusRex** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 3:01 pm

Originally posted by Shadow_Dancer
I want my happy-go-lucky swashbuckler back

But when he finds out you know he's going to suffer so much angst over it.
(If he doesn't it'll really be out of character)

I dunno. You're definitely allowed your opinion, but it sounds like your displeasure is with what you THINK is GOING to happen, rather than the story being presented itself. Kurt's already had a murdering, dupliciously evil mother, you think a demonic father is going to affect him any different?

Originally posted by sevati

Oh, Jill? Did you tone-down Azzy's skincolor in photoshop before posting that pic? It looked less orangey-red to me after I compared it with the comic.

No. The original page coloring is the one she posted. They must have changed it prior to publishing.

Personally, I enjoyed this issue. Though Raven's wanting a baby felt a bit out of place with how the character is being portrayed currently, it fit the story and developed nicely. It was great having Sean Phillips back (and I don't mind "ugly" Raven at all). His baby Kurt was cute. I liked his tiny wiggling tail.

Oh, and Azzy kicks ass, no?

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:28 pm

Azzy sure has a lot of powers. Witness:

1) Apparently, he has at least a limited shape-shifting ability (which explains why he could "see through" Raven so quickly). He looked 100% normal the first time we saw him: four fingers and thumb, caucasian skin, pupils, etc. Then, at the waterfall, he's got the fangs, the pupil-less eyes, the tridactyl hands, and the tail.

2) Considering the strangely hypnotized manner Mystique had while under his influence, is Azzy just incredibly charismatic, or something more...

? Pheremonal control maybe? Subtle telepathy?

3) And, of course, the bamfing. Can he do this at range, I wonder? Because I think Kurt the infant was a wee bit young to teleport on his own, less than an hour after his birth. Then again, he could just have bamfed in, grabbed kurt, and bamfed out again so fast that it looked like all one move. By that point, Kurt was pretty far down the waterfall, and our P.O.V. wasn't all that good....

I loved the way Kurt was portrayed as an infant, by the way. The only thing I would have rather done differently is the head. When babies are first born, the skull is all squished out of shape from going through the birth canal. It kind of looks like a peanut. Kurt's skull was perfect, like a baby who'd been born through a C-section.

Well, then again, he is a mutant, right? Maybe everything returned to its correct shape abnormally quickly?

anthomaniac1023 · Post by **anthomaniac1023** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 4:32 pm

Well, that smiley does. A new Abyss one too, I see.

As for the issue... I dunno. I find it hard to judge flashback tales. I guess I don't mind the idea of portraying a vulnerable side to Mystique's character, but it felt a little forced *shrugs*. The transition between some of the scene's was sorta choppy. Eh, wasn't the worst ever , but I didn't love it.

As for the origin itself, I'll wait to learn more about Azzy.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:23 pm

Shadow_Dancer - i agree. you are making assumptions and juding those, rather than what will/has actually happened. you wanted swashbuckling Kurt back? oh, you GOT it. trust me. this entire arc is basically an excuse to re-boot Kurt's character and ditch all the priest stuff and get him back to being like he was in Excalibur. Draco brings back to his total swashbuckler roots with his learning his parentege. and no, it is not out of character, because of the situation.

teleporting baby?

whatever... just wait.

and the intro page was editors as well, yes... Chuck has nothing to do with that... if you remember, he wrote the Unlimited story where the conception of Graydon was shown, and no marriage was ever mentioned, it in fact took place immediately after this story.

Originally posted by MabusRex
Originally posted by sevati

Oh, Jill? Did you tone-down Azzy's skincolor in photoshop before posting that pic? It looked less orangey-red to me after I compared it with the comic.
No. The original page coloring is the one she posted. They must have changed it prior to publishing.

yeah... Chuck had sent me the coloured art a few weeks before it was published, but looking at the issue, it is apparent there were some last minute changes.

BAMFCentral · Post by **BAMFCentral** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:25 pm

Well I've already posted my thoughts on my website, but will add them here. I really liked it. If, just for the fact who/what/when/where details of Kurt's birth are revealed.

Now how he got to Margali.... may be a story for another time, but at least we have a factual account of the start.

I was surprised at how close Kurt looks like his dad. Coloring appears to be the only thing Mystique gave him.

MabusRex · Post by **MabusRex** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 5:29 pm

BTW: BAMFCentral, good job on the Azzy smilie. I altered the goatee a bit to thin out the face, but you did a good job.

And yes, Tony. That IS a new Abyss smilie, isn't it?

NightFlight · Post by **NightFlight** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:02 pm

I liked it in general, but there were a few things that bothered me. First of all, the time frame being only 20 years ago but then again, that was the editor's fault. Does Mystique always have that little skull thing on her forehead in her natural state? And then there's Azazel. I really hope they don't go the route of a supernatural explanation. I'm hoping it will turn out that Azazel is simply a mutant that enjoys playing up his demonic resemblance every way he can.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:28 pm

I enjoyed it. It's my first comic in a very, very long time (not counting the Essential X-Men compilations I'm picking up now), and of course it's Nighty's backstory, so really it's just a big glee-fest.

When baby!Kurt bamfed, I actually cooed. After all, baby!Meggan is said to have instinctively shapechanged at birth into a furred form, because it was cold outside. She spent most of her life until adolescence in that form, until she learned she could control it.

Surely there's a possibility that the same instinct could have helped Kurt as a baby?

Anyway. Having only read the first Essential X-Men compilation so far, I don't know much of comic Mystique. So: here, I see a woman who is content to use her powers to become a "kept woman," to win a comfortable life, and get what she wants: a baby. I have no problem accepting the idea of her biological drive to reproduce as a powerful motivator.

Azzy messes up her plans: she falls in love, and he breaks her heart. She changes from a casually duplicitous, amoral woman, into a villain and murderess. Infantacide is more common than we as a society like to admit; hate and love are close cousins. The extremity of her emotional state and the newness of her betrayal could easily lead to drastic action. Also: post-partum depression, anyone?

I was wondering why she couldn't get pregnant before Azzy, no matter how much she slept around, and I thought -- hey, she slept with Azzy in her true form. Perhaps being in disguise is a form of birth control?

Other notes: I liked Mystique's angular face; I'm tired of the same model-blank facades being painted onto every female character. For instance, the more I see old Ororo, with her leonine eyes and deep widow's peak, the more I lament how generic she appears in more modern incarnations.

Also, I too hope that they're not making Azzy a demon. I think that constant expansion into every realm -- space, dimensional, timewarps, and now, potentially, hell -- weakens the central interest of mutants on earth and the things they deal with.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 6:58 pm

yes, EXACTLY! MWP gets it.

this may be different from current Mystique, but remember, this is not her as she is today, this is how she BECAME the sadistic and manipulative bitch we all know and love today.

sure, she was clearly manipulative here, but she wasn't a murderer. this is what made her cross that line and move into 'villain' territory. and the Unlimited story with Sabretooth is where she firmly sets herself on that path.

as for teleporting babies, keep in mind Azazel really wanted Kurt to live, he has a lot invested in the lil guy. and he had that power as well... how do you THINK Margali got Kurt?

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:21 pm

I was thinking that Azzy took Kurt to Margali. She's a big time sorceress and all, and I think he probably bamfed little kurt out of harms way and into the arms of Margali and they cooked up the story about Kurt's daddy and mommy dying in the ditch and her finding him. I actually really like that. It supports why Margali would tell him his family was dead, his father told her to.
I thought it was quite well done. I've been reading the Mystique mini and really enjoying it. I can absolutely see how she started off just causing some mischeif and then got her heart broken and killed her hubby and went off the deep end. Deciding it was her or the world and she was gonna win.
My hat's off to Chuck. Can't wait for the next issue.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 7:36 pm

Okay you guys,

I'm sorry for jumping to conclusions

It's just that I already knew the name of Azazel as one of the chief demons.

I'm sort of sensitive about that kind of stuff.

Please forgive my hasty reply

* grovels at Bamfette’s feet *

Moongazer · Post by **Moongazer** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:00 pm

I liked it a lot. There's a lot to wonder about Azazel. I hope Kurt gets to meet his father in the next issues. That'd be cool, very interesting. Yeah, I think the BAMF at the end was Azazel.

Anyway, I thought the idea was very good. It's about time we learn about Kurt's history in its entirety.

littlebamf · Post by **littlebamf** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:09 pm

The whole comic was worth it just for that ADORABLE baby picture!!!!!!! Awww, Kurt was such a CUTE baby!!!!
And as for the rest of the comic, no wonder Mystique's bitter!

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 8:30 pm

Yeah, she's bitter and vindictive because she finally had to take the abuse and manipulation she regularly dished out....

Not that I'm necessarily "rooting" for Azzy, but like does attract like....

Phoebe Mittens · Post by **Phoebe Mittens** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:05 pm

argh argh argh I know it's wrong, but I can't wait to read this whole thread before I post:

I LOVE IT! I LOVE IT!!

I love Azazel, I love Mystique's "look", I love her character's journey - the whole thing is just magic. I'm so looking forward to where this goes.

[edit] Oh, okay, it wasn't a long one. Yeah, post-natal depression! And... having your nice comfortable selfish life get whipped from under your feet! And stuff!! And I can imagine Azazel finding the strong-featured Mystique much more attractive than Raven Wagner.

Ooooohoohoohohh... so excited about this.

Machina · Post by **Machina** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 9:47 pm

Hi everyone I finaly going to post as I am one of those who have been reading the board and not post. ..Now I feel a need as I love reading everyones post and all of are a great bunch of people..Other Message boards are filled so much negative energy and I don't see it here. Now for the post

I loved this issue and was anyone creeped out by Azazel? So far no one has said anything that it apeared that Azazel was there just to get her Pregnant. He chose her to give birth to a son....The way he talked to her gave me a chill. By reading that issue I felt Azazel was slowly planning somthing that will lead to his children. Chuck is brilliant with making Azazel Kurt's father as it opens up a lot to unfold in a story..I can not wait for Draco to begin.

Born Blue · Post by **Born Blue** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:03 pm

yes, EXACTLY! MWP gets it. this may be different from current Mystique, but remember, this is not her as she is today, this is how she BECAME the sadistic and manipulative bitch we all know and love today. sure, she was clearly manipulative here, but she wasn't a murderer. this is what made her cross that line and move into 'villain' territory. and the Unlimited story with Sabretooth is where she firmly sets herself on that path.

Mystique's been killing people since World War II. I remember it from an issue of Wolverine where the two met back then, and Kurt wasn't even a thought in those days. It would be false to claim these events made Mystique what she is today. The truth is, Mystique was sadistic and manipulative decades before this storyline even takes place.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:18 pm

and isn't it possible to enjoy a story without nitpicking over details? WHO CARES? one story way back when, in Wolverine? pfft. ever occur to you THAT one was 'wrong'? i hate continuity. causes nothing but problems. but look at all the precious continuity that has been cleaned up here. two completely conflicting origins actually tied together to make sense. (they are tied together, you guys hit the nail on the head 'bout Margali

) and you nitpick THAT?

yeah, i didn't know about... whatever story it is you are talking about. maybe Chuck didn't either. eh. i dunno. maybe he WAS writing her as a muderer there. never asked. i still liked it.

Mad With Power · Post by **Mad With Power** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:30 pm

There's also the possibility that this plotline describes a reversion to really horrible crimes -- for a while she "remade" herself as a proper lady, because she wanted to be a mother. A lot of people try and "clean up their act" when they feel the pull to be parents.

Seriously, I like nitpicking, but when you can easily explain something, try and make the leap. Bad continuity: someone having a different number of fingers or a newly living relative that should be dead. Completely acceptable continuity: someone's personality undergoing a constantly changing arc.

Think about it. Are you the same person you were five years ago? Ten?

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 10:43 pm

I haven't read it..and i didn't read the everybody's elses posts but i hope i like the issue...i was spending some time at some mexican board when this one went down...and everybody was starting to say how much this sucks and they haven't even read it yet..i shut their mouths off

:

blueberrymuffin · Post by **blueberrymuffin** » Fri Jul 25, 2003 11:54 pm

Originally posted by Bamfette(they are tied together, you guys hit the nail on the head 'bout Margali )

Yay Margali. I'm really interested to see her little Cameo, hope she at least gets a flashback.

Nitpicking can be fun, as long as you're just "looking" and not actually critisizing. So many different writers and all with different ideas. I think it's kind of fun when you've thought one thing about someone for so long and then all of a sudden WHAM, guess what, you were wrong. Kind of like a soap opera, heehee. Everyone was lying all this time, this is the truth, take it or leave it. So fun. Besides, since it's not the "real world" the writers and whoever can do whatever they want. That's what I like about comix. What characters are doing in one book, they're not doing in another. and so on. It's up to interpretation.
Yay for imagination and Chuck making up his own mind (kind of anyway).