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Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:00 pm
by Bamfing_Bob
So, I was reading an article explaining Nightcrawler's origin and it got me thinking... why is his last name Wagner? Think about it. We, as fans, know his rumoured father was Herr Wagner before learning of Azazel's part in his conception. But, how would Margali Szardos know this if she discovered him as an abandoned child? If she obtained the information through mysticism, then she would know the true parents, and since Azazel has no known surname, wouldn't it have been much more likely that he would be Kurt Szardos or Kurt Darkholme?

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 1:12 pm
by steyn
Oh oh oh, I know this answer!

He's Wagner, because he was named before the retconning started. Retcons tends to skip the obvious, like names. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Azazel turned out to have been Herr Wagner in disguise. That'll fill in that plothole quite well.

But you do make a good point. I doubt if marvel would bother with a reason why he's still Wagner though.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 4:18 pm
by Ult_Sm86
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Azazel turned out to have been Herr Wagner in disguise. That'll fill in that plothole quite well.


That was the key part of Chuck Austen's retcon... Herr Wagner was actually Azazel. But you bring up a good point... Unless Raven pinned a note to his diaper before throwing him in the water (which I'm assuming he teleported out of danger? at what, two days old at best?) and Margali found that...

Not sure what to make of it but it's a great point Bamfing Bob.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sat Apr 26, 2014 8:42 pm
by FuzzyBlueElf
steyn wrote:He's Wagner, because he was named before the retconning started. Retcons tends to skip the obvious, like names. Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Azazel turned out to have been Herr Wagner in disguise. That'll fill in that plothole quite well..


You know I had this idea as well, that Azazel would actually have been Herr Wagner using his ability to disguise makes more sense then what's actually in cannon.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 2:49 am
by Angelique
That's always been a matter that gave me a bit of a headache, even after the latest Origen retcon, which had Kurt taking the name of a kindly priest who defended him. I always liked the explanation offered by the '90's animated series the best- Wagner was the name of the family that adopted him.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2014 3:30 am
by Bamfing_Bob
Angelique wrote: I always liked the explanation offered by the '90's animated series the best- Wagner was the name of the family that adopted him.


This makes the most sense to me as well... I mean, I know the lore with Azazel and everyone, but to take the last name of Wagner, who either was not the father or Azazel in disguise, when even he didn't know who his parents were until a member of the X-Men... just kinda weird... But if the Wagners had adopted him, boom. Solved.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:54 am
by Wahnsinn
Wasn't one of the old versions of his origin story that Margali actually saw his parents when she got him? That would explain him coming with the name. They've made such a mess of his background.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 7:40 pm
by Angelique
They sure did. Another nice thing about some family within the circus named Wagner adopting Kurt is that, as long as Margali was kind of a materfamilias over the whole circus (somone everyone would call "Mom" even if she's not their mother), the Wagner name would make sense, as would Kurt also regarding Margali as a sort of mother figure, and it would remove nearly all of the ick factor from his relationship with Amanda.

And yes, a couple of the old origin stories said that Nightcrawler was found with his father or with both his parents.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2014 9:08 pm
by Bamfing_Bob
Well there ya go. If we all just stick to that reasoning, it solves the name issue and makes the Kurt-Amanda relationship much less weird.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:01 am
by the_lone_bamf
Ult_Sm86 wrote:
Frankly I wouldn't be surprised if Azazel turned out to have been Herr Wagner in disguise. That'll fill in that plothole quite well.


That was the key part of Chuck Austen's retcon... Herr Wagner was actually Azazel. But you bring up a good point... Unless Raven pinned a note to his diaper before throwing him in the water (which I'm assuming he teleported out of danger? at what, two days old at best?) and Margali found that...

Not sure what to make of it but it's a great point Bamfing Bob.


Wait, I just read these issues and in the prologue to "The Draco" it's pretty clear that Azazel and Count Wagner are two different people. Azazel shows up as a foreign dignity and seduces Mystique. It's only when a suspicious Count (Mystique suddenly becomes pregnant after they have been trying for ages) says he wants a blood test that she becomes frightened and decides to abandon the baby. Later Azazel tells Kurt that he rescued him from the waterfall (he needed him to reach adulthood to be a part of the portal, after all) and then took him to Margali who actually knew him already (she brought him to the world temporarily while trying to summon something) and told her to raise him. In *this* exchange, it may have benefited Azazel to say something about Kurt being the unwanted child of Count Wagner.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Tue Jul 01, 2014 10:16 pm
by Ult_Sm86
I don't even know anymore. I really think this whole thing is a mess.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2014 6:48 pm
by the_lone_bamf
Oh it is, but I've started to warm up to the idea, probably due to the extremely charismatic Azazel from First Class. I really like him as a mutant, as a bad guy, as a contrast- but not as a demon, per se. I think that a storyline like this might have been workable, and goodness knows that Kurt needs a little TLC in the "interesting backstory" department to keep up with the soap opera that every other Marvel character seems to have experienced. Sometimes I think that's why he fell off the radar. Heck, even in the 12 issue solo series his EPIC TRAGIC LIFE DEFINING MOMENT (killing Stephan) was something that the character had made peace with ages ago. So yeah, I can understand the desire to mix things up.

Having actually gone back and read the story though- the actual writing is a mess. The pacing is awful. The story ends on a saccharine sweet moment instead of making the characters deal with any potential changes in their lives or altering their outlook.

But to be honest, the thing that I thought was the most egregious sin was the treatment of Mystique. I don't even like Mystique, but the way she was pining over Azazel in the flashback was so wildly out of character it made the whole sequence of events seem ridiculous. I'm totally willing to be mistaken here, but I thought Mystique was much older than she looks. (Not Wolverine old, but... definitely up there.) After I read the prologue I found myself wondering if she'd used her mutant powers to shift into Bella Swan.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Thu Jul 03, 2014 12:23 am
by Bamfing_Bob
... Did you seriously just make a Twilight reference? Really? Lol. Also, the Draco is next in my list after reading this week's pull, so I will give my two cents soon.

Re: Nightcrawler's name

PostPosted: Mon Jul 07, 2014 12:21 am
by Bamfing_Bob
So, I read the Draco. I give Kudos for *trying* to explain his origins. But, honestly, the only this worse than the writing is the artwork. There's no contrast, so I can't really tell what I'm looking at until I get a headache. Azazel is all "I'm the devil, I'm your father, I'm a mutant. I'm everyone's father!" It's exhausting... I'm kind of ashamed that this is a Nightcrawler story, just because it sucked so bad. That being said, I like that Azazel knew Margali, which may explain why he is called Kurt Wagner. Azazel may have provided that bit of information- that Mystique was married to Count Wagner, so her name, I assume legally, was Raven Wagner. Then the child would retain that surname. Mystery solved! However, I found a mistake in the continuity... At the end of the Draco Prologue, Kurt teleports while falling. Then, later, Azazel states that he gave Margali the blue child, rather than have him wash up. Did Nightcrawler teleport into the arms of Azazel? Seems to be the only logical reason for him to have survived... Thoughts?