Nightscrawlers

I was wondering if you remember any fights between Nightcrawler and other superheroes? Superheroes meaning like Wolverine, Captain America, anybody who would be considered a hero.

I know he's fought Spider-Man super early in his career, and I think I have just about every fight between him and Captain Britain (even found one in an issue of She-Hulk). So do you know of any other tussles Kurt has had with the other heroes of the Marvel Universe?

Originally posted by Man of Letters
I know he's fought Spider-Man super early in his career

In Amazing Spider-Man #161 and #162, to be precise.

Yeah, I have them both, and later when they teamed up in Marvel Team-Up.

Nighty and Wolvie faced off against Alpha Flight in some of the old comics when AF wanted Wolvie back.

Out of curiosity, in the Nighty-Spidy, who won? It must have been awsome, with, you know, them both being so similar but different.
My bet's gotta be on Spidy, I'm afraid. Sure, Nighty's damn cool, but Spidy has higher stamina and strength. Pluss he's got wall crawling powers.
Any way, who won?

Originally posted by Yma
Pluss he's got wall crawling powers.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Nightcrawler as well?

I think Nighty-Spidey (nice name! ) would be a tie. Sure, Spidey could wrap him in web, but NC could just port out of it...

~Siona

By Blue_2007
"Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't Nightcrawler as well?"

Yep, all I was saying was that they were similar in that ability. I mean, let's break it down...
Spidy:
Wall crawling
Web Slinging
Very Acrobatic/dexterous
Super Strengh
Super Stamina

Nighty:
Wall Crawling
Teleporting
Very Acrobatic/dexterous
Night-sight
Invisable in darkness

Humm, now, as Acrobatics/dexterous and Wallcrawling cancel each other out, we see it's a competition between Web-Slinging and Teleporting primaraly. (Which might also cancel each other out. If we presume that Spidy's Spider sense can detect Kurt's sneak attack and that Nighty can teleport out of any of the webslinger's bindings)
So it's Sight in Darkness and Semi-invisability VS Super Strength and Stamina.
Now, I'm sorry to say if, because I love Nighty dearly, but on the face of it, it seems like Spidy's the most likely to win, unless Kurt's got something sneaky hidden up his sleeve.
What do you think?

I have the scans of their fight posted on my site (Page 3 I believe). The link is in my sig.

Woah, thanks Man of Letters. That was a really cool fight! Made me wish I owned the comic...
Ah well, I love your site, BTW, I'll visit it again, later, when it's not nearly 2am in the morning...

Nightcrawler and Spidey also fought briefly (and I mean BRIEFLY) in Secret Wars 1. I have a great amount of admiration for the elf, but in relation to combat prowess, I do not think he and Spider Man are in the same league.

The Spider-man #161 and 162 are awfully generous in that he laid a glove on Spiderman. Now don't get me wrong, I think Nightcrawler could evade and keep the wall-crawler busy, but he could not defeat him outright. Kurt does not have the power to wallop him good. He would have to trick Spidey into something huge and that leaves the old precognitive Spider-sense to keep Mr. Parker from getting too hurt.

Think of it as the time NC tussled with Captain Britain. If memory serves, Spider-man and Cap are about the same strength. NC could embarass and anger a foe that tough, but one slip up and WHAM! - a broken femur.

The fight in Secret Wars was about right: Kurt thinks he is just as fast and agile as Spider-man, jumps Spider-man, Spider-man's combat reflexes, power and precognitive abilities work in coordination to backhand Kurt ... once. Then Kurt is out.

Think of it as the time NC tussled with Captain Britain. If memory serves, Spider-man and Cap are about the same strength. NC could embarass and anger a foe that tough, but one slip up and

Um. . . Captain Britain is around Class80. That's even stronger than Rogue and into the Thing's range. That's definitely above Spider-Man.

The fight in Secret Wars was about right: Kurt thinks he is just as fast and agile as Spider-man, jumps Spider-man, Spider-man's combat reflexes, power and precognitive abilities work in coordination to backhand Kurt ... once. Then Kurt is out.

Kurt was not out, Kurt was webbed. Not hurt. Not hit. But webbed.

And like you said, Kurt *thinks* he's as fast and as agile, but *proved* he had the speed (not fastER, just fast enough) to hang with Spider-Man a long time ago.

So what makes one moment geneious and the other ludacris?

Let me ask you, what do you think was the point to Nightcrawler saying "I'm as fast and agile as he is," and being disproven the second afterwards?

Would it not stand to reason that said writer had an agenda when writing that issue. Because

And this is the most important to remember

Nightcrawler was not the only person who lost to Spider-Man in that issue.

The whole team did.

That my friend, is what we call at the debating boards - jobbing.

Because a whole squad of X-Men didn't have to lay down to make Spider-Man look good.

calm down, MoL. i know you think NC is really a great fighter, and very strong and all that. but, face it. he's not. he's very good, but Spider-Man level? nah. and frankly, that is why i like the character. he's NOT a super powerful or strong character, that can just take blow after blow without any ill effects. he can overcome some powerful characters IF he uses his wits and uses his powers and skills creatively, like he did in the Captain Britain fight. he did not stand toe to toe with him throwning punches, sure, he took a few, but... no he teleported him so he crashed into a rock! and as strong as Brian is, and as heated as the argument was, Kurt was still a friend. and 'class 80' whatever that means or not, i doubt he was hitting him at full strength. overall, Kurt's just not as powerful as most other characters, and that's fine. it shows that brains and creativity can overcome raw power, and that is where the character's true appeal lies with me.

yeah, he may have said he was this strong whenever, but if it is not lived up to in several HUNDRED issues that he has starred in following that, isn't it safe to assume that that one time (or few scattered instances, i don't pay much attention) he said that, or displayed that strength, was ananomoly? an editorial mistake or something that was changed very shortly after? what i go by is how he is displayed consistently. there will always be mistakes either short changing him or over-powering him (and that goes for any character) writers and editors are human, and are capable of error. either that or different editors will simply have differing opinions. that's the simple fact of the matter. as for how he has been *consistently* portrayed, most often over the years, no, he is not as strong or as good a fighter as Spider-Man by a long shot. i don't care about a few scattered issues where he did this or that to 'prove' otherwise. as far as i am concerned, those are out of the ordinary, and not consistent with how the character has been written otherwise.

And yet again, Bamfette hits in on the head!!

~Siona

calm down, MoL.

Huh? My post contained just as much "anger" as yours did.

i know you think NC is really a great fighter, and very strong and all that. but, face it. he's not. he's very good, but Spider-Man level?

I do not believe he is Spider-Man's level in *all* regards, merely fast enough to hang. After all, Captain America, Wolverine, Daredevil, and Iron Fist has fought hand-to-hand against Spidey, and I surely consider Nightcrawler faster than Daredevil/Iron Fist/Wolverine.

nah. and frankly, that is why i like the character. he's NOT a super powerful or strong character, that can just take blow after blow without any ill effects. he can overcome some powerful characters IF he uses his wits and uses his powers and skills creatively,

Understandable, but that doesn't explain how Spider-Man can trounce a whole team of X-Men so easily. And I've debated this issue countless times. So I'm pretty well versed in all the possible angles you could see this fight (and Peter's other team fights) from.

and 'class 80' whatever that means or not,

Do you have any of the old Marvel Handbooks? In one of them they started a "class" system to rank people's strength. People like Hulk were class 100, Thing class 80, and Rogue like class 50, etc. It was used to show how many class "tons" a person could lift. So if you were in class 100, you could lift 100 tons.

The problem with the system is that even when the class system was released, people were already lifting well over 100 tons. So the class system is meaningless in deciding how much a character can lift.

Now the class system is used mainly for ABC ranking and no one pays any attention to the "ton" part.

i doubt he was hitting him at full strength.

By a quote in the book, he never landed a "solid" blow. On my sight I believe I list them as "glancing" blows. Where a person gets hit, but it's not with all the power a person could punch with.

yeah, he may have said he was this strong

His words are, "...I'm as fast and as agile as he is."

Nightcrawler is wrong on both accounts, but not by so much that he should have been so horribly dismissed in that issue.

I consider Kurt faster than say, Iron Fist/Wolverine (or even Punisher), but both have managed to "hang" with Spider-Man with just their own speed. Of course they are slower than Spider-Man, so is Nightcrawler. But if I consider Nightcrawler faster than Fist/Punisher, and those two were fast enough to fight Spider-Man, why not Nightcrawler?

It should also be noted that I don't think neither Fist/Punisher/Wolverine has a "straight" win of Spider-Man. And I think the last time Spidey/Punisher fought, Spidey beat him badly.

but if it is not lived up to in several HUNDRED issues that he has starred in following that, isn't it safe to assume that that one time (or few scattered instances, i don't pay much attention) he said that, or displayed that strength,

No no no no no. I was comparing their relative speed difference, not strength. I already knew Spider-Man was well stronger than Nightcrawler. :p

*consistently* portrayed, most often over the years, no, he is not as strong or as good a fighter as Spider-Man by a long shot.

I would actually consider him a better "hand to hand" fighter than Spider-Man. My reasoning for this is, if you took away both their powers and told them to fight, I would bet on the guy with the martial arts training.

when i said that about class 80, the point was I DON'T care what it means. if i did care, i would have looked it up myself. :p for me, reading comics, story comes first, stats and continutity way, way WAAAAAAAAY second. i read it, i think to myself 'was that a good read? was it entertaining?' if the answer is yes, that is all i need. if there were some inconsistencies with stats or continuity, as long as it's not gigantic, it is no big deal. it is fiction, it's fun, it is entertianing, i enjoy it. but really, it is not that important. i know a lot about the character, but mostly because of research i did to help the site.
and stronger, faster, it makes little difference, what i said still applies. he IS fas, he IS agile. more so than a regular person, to be sure. but spider-Man agile/fast? nope, i still don't think so. besides, Spider-sense beats all.

Now that I think about it, I don't think mainstream Nightcrawler has ever defeated a hero in a one on one fight. There are a number of times he has tricked or snuck up on one. These are the only two I could think of:

Captain Britain
Shadowcat (he was posessed)

Nazi-Kurt defeated Meggan.

I played Kurt in a LOT of gaming systems (yes I am familiar with Marvel's class system). Even generously pointed, he is tough to defeat many villians on his own. Humans, human mobs, low powered mutates, aliens, space pirates - piece of cake.

Even though I gave away my books a long time ago, I still have my old GURPS game sheet (if anyone is interested) on xls. u2u me if you would like me to post it.

i hate saying it but unless he thinks quick Kurt isn't going to win. regarding the spider sense though, it isn't going to help him if Kurt touches him and teleports him 2 miles up (over a body of water of course, Kurt wouldn't want to kill him).

Wow...I was looking for that Spidey vs Nighty issue...issues.

Well you pretty much hit it on the head Entropy. I used to have that debate at Cons sometimes - Nightcrawler could always teleport an opponent within his teleporting mass range into a brick wall or teleport their head off, but he won't kill. That puts him at the most severe disadvantage. If you allow for his loss of values for life and "fair play" he could defeat quite a few heavy hitters.

Actually, although his multi-port attacks (both the one where he ports you over and over, and the other where he punches you over and over) are very effective, they're both quite cheap also. In comic book terms the multi-port attack wouldn't make for a very fun comic to read if that was all he did, thus the writers rarely have him do it. To make a comparison, it's like asking why Spider-Man doesn't just put all his enemies down with a pound of webbing at the start of the fight.