Gypsies

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Fri Aug 29, 2003 10:23 pm

Well, the topic came up between me and Maelstrom about Romani gypsies, Kurt's finding, and him being "of bad spirits".

I did a mite of research and found that, yes!, if Kurt HAD been found by gypsies, he'd have been believed to be a o Beng or devil.

Also, the relationship between him and Amanda Sefton; it's rather common these days for gypsies, especially European clans, to marry cousins or the in-laws.

I've been looking up German gypsies, but all I get is info on the Holocaust and such, and the book I got this from isn't very informant on European gypsies... Anyone else got a say on this?

I'm waiting, Maelstrom...

~Siona

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:44 am

That's some really good research Siona. But if Kurt was found by a gypsy wouldn't she have killed him or done something to get rid of him since they believe he's the devil?

BamfChyck · Post by **BamfChyck** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 12:55 am

How about this---

Okay, Azzy comes to Margali and says, "hey, power-hungry pretty horned lady, if you raise this blue fuzzy baby I teleported away from a sure death at the bottom of a waterfall, I will give you all the knowledge, power etc. of the Winding Way and you can become really cool."

So she says yes, and invents some story to tell all the other Gypsy people about how this freaky looking baby is really from angels or something, not the devil/demon dude, and to prove it, she ensures he is brought up devotely Catholic.

And so we get Catholic, blue, fuzzy and undeniably sexy Kurt not murdered as a baby!

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:06 am

Ooooh, good theory, BamfChyck!!

I hadn't even thought of Azazel, forgot the old red fart completely.

~Siona

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:12 am

That's a pretty good explanation!!! Or maybe Maragali knew that Kurt was Azazel's child and held it ransom for the power of the winding way and yada yada... She got her powers, but not before making Kurt what Azazel would probably hate. So he gave Nightcrawler back and :bamfed away...

That probably didn't happen but nice to make up your own explanation for things

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 1:28 am

Or maybe she was terrified of him putting a curse on him, since he's supposedly a demon and all.

I did a little more scrounging in this (outdated) book on Gypsies and I happened upon something called "the devil incident".

A Roma (name for Gypsy, a bit more polite I think) convinced an entire community that he had a dead demon or devil in his bathtub and would curse everyone with it. It was actually a dead stingray all cut up to look demonic but...

Well, here's a quote from the book:

He made the sign of the cross every time the word "devil" was said.

This meaning? Gypsies (NOT TO BE RUDE IN ANYWAY) are superstitious, especially with stuff concerning curses and o Beg.

So maybe Azzy tricked her into thinking he was the Devil and said something along the lines of "take my child or be cursed!!"

~Siona

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:00 am

Wow, that's really gross, animal mutilation... Yuck. What if Azzy wasn't a big part of it at all. Maybe Mystique was in on it. After she threw Kurt and got away from the crazy mob, she went to look for him (which isn't really in her nature) and found Kurt before Margali. She knew she couldn't keep him so she gave him to Margali who would get in turn great power. Of course Mystique asked Azzy to do something and that's that.

Probably not, but like I said, I like making up my own things

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:14 am

I doubt it. For a few reasons:

1) Azazel apparently only used Mystique to give him a kid. Why? Not yet revealed...

2) Mystique wasn't chased down by a mob this time, according to the latest Uncanny issues; she willingly threw Kurt over a cliff because she believed him to be the reason she'd lost her seat of power.

3) Azzy had to part of it all. When Mystique chucks the kid (:yell), you see a dash of purple smoke and "BAMF!". Kurt's too young, so it had to be Azzy.

Which can only mean one thing...well, actually, it could mean two; Azzy either cared enough for his own flesh and blood to save him from death, or was simply rescuing him to manipulate him later on.

~Siona

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 3:04 am

Probably in the "manipulate later on" category. Azzy is even more amoral than Mystique, when it comes right down to it. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Azzy is a mutant, but he's been around for so long, and he was so powerful and so brutal in his time, that people associated him with evil in the same way as we associate the image of Hitler with evil. Azzy became a caricature of evil, and devils were created in his image.

And, yes, the word Roma, or Rom, is the preferred name. They'll accept the word "Gypsy" only grudgingly. To be honest, I haven't really worried too much about Comic Kurt's Romani past, as the Marvel Universe seems to use steroetypical magic-throwing Gypsies instead of Rom. However, for MovieKurt, being considered marime ("unclean") at best by most of the Rom populace would sure explain why he started tattooing himself for his sins, wouldn't it?

taekwondodo · Post by **taekwondodo** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 6:59 am

Originally posted by Maelstrom
However, for MovieKurt, being considered marime ("unclean") at best by most of the Rom populace would sure explain why he started tattooing himself for his sins, wouldn't it?

Great take on things Maelstrom. Love how you research stuff. Would love some decent excuse/justification for the whole self-mutilation thing in the movie and that sounds like a great one. Can't wait to see what you do with it.

TKD

kladyelf · Post by **kladyelf** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:01 am

Oooh! Oooh! I know what happened when baby Kurt went over the waterfall and disappeared in a puff of purple smoke!!

In true overblown and overcomplicated X-Men Fashion....

----------------------------------------------------

"Rachel?!*"
"Kurt?!"
"where are we? - this looks vaugely familiar..."
"according to psi-scans we're in Germany - about twenty-five odd years ago...."
"where exactly?"
"I can't tell everyone's thinking in German!"
*sigh* "So... when did you get back into our time? you could have told us" *looks hurt*
"Oh! well, um - Gee will you look at that, it's Mystique at the top of a waterfall"
"She said chainging the subje - eek!" *Bamf!*
*grab*
*Bamf* **
"Ohhh - fuzzy elf you're so cute"
"...ip"
"and such cute chubby ickle toes..."
".... wurgh"
"Oh don't worry about the chronal shock - it just happens from being in the presence of yourself - you get over it - look at Cable he did."
"... nwah..." *points*
"Margali is that way?"
".. Guh"
Rachel pats him reassuringly on the shoulder as she takes the infant from the arms of his older self.
"Don't worry fuzzy elf - just let me do the talking"

-----------------------------------------------------------------------
* - Rachel went back to the "present" after Cable rescued here in issue no. # ihavenoidea.

How did they go back? i haven't a clue, but i'm sure it involves posing, skimpy costumes and Excalibur reunions....

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Kitty, Meggan and Brian gaze at the smoking hole in the carpet where there teammates stood.
Brian clears his throat.
"So... I suppose that Rachel is Phoenix again?"
"Yeah, I guess..."
"Well, i suppose they will be back soon - who knew such trouble could come from a sneeze - would anyone like little miniature lemon meringues?"

------------------------------------------------------------------------

** (if you just do a split-second port the smoke wouldn't have time to clear around the teleporter - and its such a small puff of smoke because of perspective!!)

LOL

RobDBlackwolf · Post by **RobDBlackwolf** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 2:05 pm

First I would like to say this:

Roma is not the better word for gypsy.. You would probly get some nasty words and looks from the Sinthi gypsys when ye call them Roma.
The Roma are ONE group of gypsy's. As I mentioned there are also the Sinthi and Luda. (as much as I gathered, and there might be more too.)

Then the circus where Kurt grew up. From what I read alone on this forum (very informative) I would say, that Margali Szardos and her children where maybe the only gypsys in the circus. The rest was a gathering of different eurpean countries. So he did not grew up in a 100% gypsy community (where he would maybe killed as demon) but more in a multi-cultural society where he was just a bit more odd than the others.

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 4:18 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Probably in the "manipulate later on" category. Azzy is even more amoral than Mystique, when it comes right down to it. Personally, I'm of the opinion that Azzy is a mutant, but he's been around for so long, and he was so powerful and so brutal in his time, that people associated him with evil in the same way as we associate the image of Hitler with evil. Azzy became a caricature of evil, and devils were created in his image.

And, yes, the word Roma, or Rom, is the preferred name. They'll accept the word "Gypsy" only grudgingly. To be honest, I haven't really worried too much about Comic Kurt's Romani past, as the Marvel Universe seems to use steroetypical magic-throwing Gypsies instead of Rom. However, for MovieKurt, being considered marime ("unclean") at best by most of the Rom populace would sure explain why he started tattooing himself for his sins, wouldn't it?

I like, I like alot!!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who thinks

's in self-denial.

Hm...yes...in fact, this could explain the tattoos quite a bit...along with the colorful clothes!

~Siona

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 9:44 pm

Mystique is crazy! But for some reason she's my favorite character because of that. Maybe Kurt isn't a mutant at all! Maybe he actually did bamf to save his own life because he obtained his teleport powers from his daddy. But that wouldn't be very plausable because:

1. Professor Xavier wouldn't of been able to find Kurt in the first place if he wasn't a mutant

2. Babies dont' really know if they're in real danger unless Mystique has thrown Kurt around a bit after he was born, which is very possible because Mystique is a litte Ku ku.

3. How would Kurt of been able to bamf if he hadn't before (unless I have missed something and he learned how somehow)

So I guess that that goes against my hypothesis... I guess Azazel really did want to save his son. And like his Mom, try to manipulate him when they could.

Melylott · Post by **Melylott** » Sat Aug 30, 2003 11:10 pm

Margali in the movieverse is white, as far as I can tell, and so is Amanda, because they look that way and it's never been mentioned that they are Gypsies. So I don't think Kurt comes from a Romani backround there. They're last name is Szardos though...

NightPoofer · Post by **NightPoofer** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:36 am

I thought we were talking about Kurt in the comics. Because movieverse is completely different! The director changed around a whole lot of things and don't pay attention to what the comic writer put into. Like Rogue was never adopted and Jean Grey obtains her phoenix powers some weird and completely different way

(Jean Grey has too many powers...)

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Sun Aug 31, 2003 1:50 am

Ugh, you think Jean has too many powers, go read about Nocturne in "Kurt's AU Kids" in Character FAQ/Facts!

Oh, back on topic. Well, Melylott, race doesn't matter, no matter what Disney movies("Hunchback of Notre Dame"!) may say.

~Siona

jogurt · Post by **jogurt** » Mon Sep 01, 2003 4:36 am

Originally posted by Melylott
Margali in the movieverse is white, as far as I can tell, and so is Amanda, because they look that way and it's never been mentioned that they are Gypsies. So I don't think Kurt comes from a Romani backround there. They're last name is Szardos though...

In the Comics is Margali often green(;))
If youre *gysie* it doesnt mean youre looking differ than any other german here.
Ok there are Sinthi and Roma who look like *classical* - darkhaired and browneyed. But i know blonde and blue ore greeneyed. (Aside the fact that *white* is a useless term.) Sinthi and Roma do have a (partly) other cultural backround than *germans* (most do have a german passport !!!)
I dont believe they won`t react differ than other people on a baby like kurt.

swordwhalewalking · Post by **swordwhalewalking** » Tue Sep 02, 2003 11:38 pm

There was an excellent contemporary fantasy written by Canadian author Charles de Lint called Mulengro, which had as central characters the modern "gypsies" of Toronto (Rom). He generally does his research well, and it may be a more accurate image of the culture, at least in fiction.

Author Nancy Springer also did a YA novel called The Boy on the Black Horse which had a lot of good detail on the Romani.

The only other thing I know off the top of my head is, there's a whole website for Gyspy Vanner Horses, the big black and white horses that traditionally pull the caravans.

http://www.gypsyhorse.com/content.html

I have a mental image of young Kurt on one of those, that won't go away...

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:38 am

Ooh, thanks swordwhalewalking (MAN, long name; got a nickname?)! I'll pick these up after I'm done with Tommy's Tale.

Great...now that image is stuck in my head too...along with some fanart someone did of Kurt in more gypsie-ish clothing, very good.

~Siona

spinifex · Post by **spinifex** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 12:57 am

OOo! Charles de Lint.

I need to pick up some of his stuff. Contemporary Fantasy is a genre I haven't read a lot of, but interests me. I also adore Toronto, so this intrigues me even more.

Thanks for the tip!

Nightmare · Post by **Nightmare** » Wed Sep 03, 2003 6:05 am

I hesitate to bring this up, but Margali wasn't your ordinary gypsy. She had abilities and knowledge of arcane things, and a simple magical pass would have shown her the little blue waif wasn't evil, but was entirely human in his soul, despite his iffy parentage. Human in being neither good or evil innately, depending on his rearing.

Margali is influential among her folk, I dare say, and they would believe her when she says, "He's not evil, he just looks funny."

They would however, make her raise him herself... just in case. And besides, if anything happened (*cross fingers*) SHE could take care of it. [Yeah right, see how well that worked with Stefan...]

Siona · Post by **Siona** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 11:30 pm

Ah, like a priest of sorts. Good call there, Nightmare.

~Siona