Kurt's tongue

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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:08 am

Chances are the passage is in Deuteronomy, somewhere, or Leviticus. Those are the two "law-heavy" parts of the Old Testament. i believe the reason behind that (I could easily be wrong, so take this with a grain of salt) is to differentiate themselves from the rest of the pagans who regularly put symbols of their gods all over them as talismen against evil. Considering I've seen a LOT of very Christian people, including Roman Catholics and priests, with tattoes of the cross, Jesus, angels, and so on, I think that law isn't taken literally anymore, so Kurt is probably okay with the whole thing. Mutilation is one thing, and so is idolatry; decorating your body is another.

I've often considered getting a tattoo, believe it or not. I would get some kind of dragon (not Nighty; sorry), a piece of artwork and beauty. But, unfortunately, those with such body art as tattooes, scarification, branding (yes, they actually do that :ick ), and piercings anywhere but the "acceptable" part of the earlobes are generally considered "undesirables" by society. If you have a visible tattoo, you're pretty much relegated to blue collar jobs. If you've got body piercings, you're stuck in the music industry: 99.99999% of the time, it's selling music rather than making it (hello, part time job at Rasputins....) Oh, sure, I could get a tattoo where it wouldn't show, but then what would be the point?

And so, I will wait until attitudes change before I even consider the idea.

That, and I'm a horrible coward when it comes to physical pain... :peek
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Post by CuteLittleBamf » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:26 am

I think your right about Deuteronomy and Leviticus but I didn't know how the Catholic Church felt on the subject. I'm Jewish and we are kind of heavy when it comes to that Old Testament stuff. Tattoos are differently out for us but it's not just the rule it's a holocaust thing too or I would differently have one of a Jewish star on my ankle. My cousins are rabbis though and they'd be pretty mad. Actually Kurt’s spirituality is one of the reasons i like him so much. Catholicism is such a beautiful religion.

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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:36 am

You considered getting one on your ankle? Wow; you're braver than I am. I could never even consider getting a tat on a joint. There's no muscle or fat to absorb the needle sticks, so it'd be extra painful.

I can certainly understand there being a "holocaust thing" against tattoing. I'd consider having the equivalent of a bar code (or a "scarlet A" ) tattoed on my arm to be mutilation, like a slave's brand.

I'm curious, though: would non-permanent decorations, like henna, be considered acceptable? They wear away after a week or so.
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Post by CuteLittleBamf » Tue Sep 09, 2003 4:51 am

Yeah of course I don't think there is anything like that I got my cousin Robbi to wear a fake tattoo once (he's the rabbi) If he did it I'm sure it's ok.:)

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Post by NightFlight » Tue Sep 09, 2003 5:55 am

Certainly lots of religious people get tattoos, so the law is not taken literally anymore. The son of Jim Bakker the televangelist for example, is heavily tattooed. Certain branches of Christianity such as the Copts developed some very intricate designs. Let's not forget, the body may be the temple of God, so what's so wrong with putting up a few "stained glass windows?" :LOL

BTW Maelstrom, most tattooing feels a bit like fingernails scratching a sunburn, it's not unduly painful once the artist gets going, although the pain level will certainly vary depending on the part of the body and the skill of the artist. I've gotten my upper arms and belly tattooed and the pain was quite tolerable.
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Post by Bamf_Girl » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:00 am

Wait... got a question... since movieverse Nighty (I'm sure everyones seen pics of him so hopefull no spoilers here) has those tattoo... I guess if he did it himself, would that be considered cutting? I mean every time he sins he carves a sign into him, to get rid of the sin or something along those lines... I had a conversation with a friend about it... it kinda trailed off to Mortimer, Logan and the Phoniex... I have no idea why lol
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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Sep 09, 2003 6:53 pm

There's been lots, and I mean LOTS, of discussion on the issue of just what NC means by "one for each sin". I have to believe he does the cutting himself, as something that obviously means that much to him he wouldn't trust to anyone else, but as for the exact reasons for it, they're up in the air. Some believe it's a strict "punishment" thing, similar to the flagellites. Others that it's a way to remind him of sins he's committed and then atoned for or transcended, as a focal point to make him think in the future. Considering his Romani past, they could also be considered requests for divine aid to help fortify his will against repeating transgressions. And Slarti is working on one piece that seems to take the stance that they were mistaken beliefs, committed in his callow youth, and that he doesn't do them anymore.
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Post by NightFlight » Tue Sep 09, 2003 7:29 pm

I consider his "one for each sin" explanation more of an automatic response than the complete truth. When people ask me about my tattoos, I give different responses depending on who is doing the asking and whether or not I think they "get" what was on my mind. I think the same goes for Nightcrawler. With marks so intricate, he had to have done a great deal of advance planning.
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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:08 pm

Considering the intricacy of said scars, and how long they'd take to heal, I'm guessing he'd plan them during free time while on the road in the Munic Circus, and then actually do them during the "off season" of winter. That would give them a good four or so months to heal. After all, he couldn't do all that aerial work with the scars still open, and it wouldn't look all that good for his fans :ick

Personally, I have to think he'd find a way of camouflaging/including that nasty circular "welt" Stryker gave him in a new set of scars. Perhaps he'd also work with the scar he got from the bullet to the arm as well. I have him give the subject a fair amount of thought in my fics.
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Post by NightFlight » Tue Sep 09, 2003 8:58 pm

Yeah, that's right, he was planning doing something with the circular scar during "Talons" and never got around to it. Of course, he's going to need someone to help with doing his back.
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Post by Maelstrom » Tue Sep 09, 2003 9:12 pm

Oh, I don't know... After all, that tail is awful flexible. All he really needs is a few stationary, strategically-arranged mirrors, and maybe some chalk to do the initial marking.

Of course, that isn't to say that he wouldn't appreciate some help, if he feels comfortable enough with said person... :D
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Post by NightFlight » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:26 pm

Or probably a surgical marking pen, or a thermographic stencil, that is, if the purple ink is dark enough to show up against his skin.
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Post by Beboots » Tue Sep 09, 2003 10:32 pm

...Pardon me for being a tad off topic, but, I have to know...
Originally posted by Maelstrom
And Slarti is working on one piece that seems to take the stance that they were mistaken beliefs, committed in his callow youth, and that he doesn't do them anymore.
...who is this Slarti, and where might I read her fics? Mind giving me a link? ;)
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Post by Bamf Bunny » Tue Sep 09, 2003 11:55 pm

Originally posted by CuteLittleBamf
Yeah isn't in the bible that tattoos aren’t allowed.
It's in Leviticus 19:28.

[/quote]And if he was that religious wouldn’t he know that.[/quote]
Not all Christians consider that part of Leviticus binding.

Leviticus 19 is one of ten chapters known as the Holiness Code: a long list of behaviors leading to cleanliness and sanctification. In addition to tattooing, the Holiness Code covers the basic rules defining kosher food, prohibitions against hybridizing animals and wearing clothes made out of two kinds of fibers, sex between men ...

For Christians, though, the laws dealing with clean and unclean food are explicitly overturned in Mark 7 and Acts 10. As for the rest of the Code ... some Christians hold that the whole thing was overturned, citing these and other verses. Others pick and choose. I don't know of any major Christian denomination following all these rules.

In Roman Catholicism, specifically, I'm unaware that the modern Church forbids tattooing. The strongest statements I've found have been individual priests saying "it might not be a good idea" (and there are tattooed priests out there). If the Church did forbid it, it wouldn't be shy about saying so.
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Post by CuteLittleBamf » Wed Sep 10, 2003 12:20 am

Sorry, I don't know that much about the Catholic Church’s stance on that kind of thing. I just knew it was in the bible and was wondering. Jews still believe most of those rules but in less religious synagogues they are taken with a grain of salt. Trust me you we never see any orthodox Jews with a tattoo. Thank you for the info. Though, I just had no clue. :)

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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:21 am

Originally posted by Beboots
...Pardon me for being a tad off topic, but, I have to know...
Originally posted by Maelstrom
And Slarti is working on one piece that seems to take the stance that they were mistaken beliefs, committed in his callow youth, and that he doesn't do them anymore.
...who is this Slarti, and where might I read her fics? Mind giving me a link? ;)
Actually, she's got a link to the left. Slarti, also known as Slartibartfast (one of the moderators), is also known as Saille, and her work is features in a site called "Sanctuary". The link button is second from the top. Give it a click: she's quite good.

Fur and Brimstone has a lot of good stuff, too, tho it hasn't been updated since June. I personally avoid slash fics, but theres a LOT more than that on it, and it's all been archived on its own merit.
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Post by Siona » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:57 am

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Oh, I don't know... After all, that tail is awful flexible. All he really needs is a few stationary, strategically-arranged mirrors, and maybe some chalk to do the initial marking.

Of course, that isn't to say that he wouldn't appreciate some help, if he feels comfortable enough with said person... :D
Actually, I recall seein' no tats on NC's back...

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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Sep 10, 2003 2:59 am

:LOL:LOL You're right, Siona: Moviecrawler doesn't have any scars on his back.... YET

I was just figuring it would be possible for him to do one on the back of his neck alone, if he so desired.

Y'know, while we're on the subject, I'm wondering if there'd be all that much blood involved in his scarification process. I've seen several different fics on this, but I see his scars as part of a meditative devotion, and I've seen plenty of examples of people in such trances who don't bleed.

Seriously. In a documentary I saw, it showed a priest (east Indian) who carried this big huge honkin' setup on his back for a festival. Not only was it incredibly heavy and uncomfortable, posted on his shoulders as it was, it also considested of putting over 100 hooks into his body! :shocked Small hooks, fishook sized. They photographed the whole proceedure: the priest put himself into a trance, his aids put the hooks in, and he danced around with 100lbs of metal on his shoulders and 100 fishooks and attached dangling chains in his torso, and there wasn't a spot of blood, nor did he feel any discomfort. The trance slowed the blood to the capillaries just under the skin, and the meditative trance disassociated him from all pain. (No blood when they removed the hooks, either, and the priest was looking forward to carrying the same setup next year.)

Not that NC would subject himself to something this extreme, but it's an example of the control one can have over their body, given ideal conditions.
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Post by NightFlight » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:28 am

The documentaries I've seen on scarification show some bleeding, but it doesn't appear to be excessive. More than for a tattoo, but easy to wipe away with a paper towel. Of course, it would depend on how deep the cut and whether or not the cut is into a very vascular area. I don't think back skin would bleed that much.
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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:35 am

I'm sure you're right about the low level of blood. Considering that I don't think you'd have to cut more than 1/8th of an inch into the skin, 1/4 at the most, I can't imagine hitting anything really important. Except for a few notable areas, like the inside of the wrists and elbows, most important veins and arteries are buried pretty deep.

I was figuring, considering his skin tone, that he'd likely use indigo as a scar medium. Of course, sterile charcoal might be easier to obtain. Any thoughts on this?
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Post by NightFlight » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:54 am

You might want to give BMEZINE a look, they have extensive information regarding all forms of body mod. Here's one for scarification.
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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:12 am

Hey, COOL! This link is a wealth of research and information! Thanks! :D
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Post by Dracadancer » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:21 pm

From the way Kurt said it in the movie that "One for each sin, so quite a few..." quote I thought the scarring was meant as a form of repentance more than anything else, sort of like priests that flogged themselves in the Middle Ages. I figured it was more about the pain of the act than the actual visual scars left by it that really meant something. Self-punishment was very popular in the Church in olden days but since flagellation isn’t exactly an accepted practice today, pain through self-mutilation would be the next best thing for Kurt to use. The pain and discomfort from flogging was considered a deterrent for cravings for the sensual pleasures of the flesh as well as proved the insignificance of the body and since Kurt is known as a bit of a womanizer and as being quite proud of his acrobatic skill that comes with his unique body it would make sense that he might do some self-inflicted pain as penitence for his sins of vanity and lust.
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Post by Maelstrom » Wed Sep 10, 2003 3:01 pm

In the Philippines, they re-enact the passion play every year with flagellites and crucifixions. And, yes, they're the real thing. The flagellites have their back punctured by a multi-spiked instrument after they're finished scourging themselves, to prevent blood blisters from forming :eek People actually vie for the right to take Christ's place on the cross, and are nailed in there. :shocked

The upshot of this is that the rest of the world, including RCs, shake their head in utter bewilderment, wondering if these ernest souls have missed the entire point. His sacrifice was done so we wouldn't have to do it ourselves. The medieval view of physical self-castigation being acceptable (and even expected) isn't popularly embraced anymore. Not only does it no longer have Church sanction and support, it's actively opposed by that same Church.

Because of his active discouragement, I'd have to think that NC isn't doing this as strictly a form of pain-induced penance. If so, the scars would not be so finely-crafted. He's put a great deal of thought into what he wanted to do, and chose the "alphabet of angels", Enochian, to do a lot of it in (at least, for the ones on his face). Considering how involved, delicate, and artful the scars are, he's also put a great deal of effort into cutting them. I'd think that if he just wanted to punish himself, the scars would be uneven, unplanned, ugly, and probably hidden from view, instead of the art that graces his body.
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Post by Siona » Wed Sep 10, 2003 5:15 pm

Good grief, what are those wippersnappers smokin'?! :die

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