Ramifications (Issue 433)

Blue candle · Post by **Blue candle** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:06 pm

What do you think the long term personal ramifications will be for Nightcrawler following the Draco arc? [spoiler]Just spiritually speaking, the notion that the Christian concept of Satan is really a mutant from biblical times seems like it would shake his faith, which, for those deeply as religious as he has been portrayed to be, is a cornerstone of who they are - what their self-concept is based on. Now throw in that this mutant is his biological father and how does his perception of himself and the world fit with it? Any thoughts? [/spoiler]

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Tue Dec 02, 2003 10:48 pm

wow, i never thought on it in that way, i [spoiler]only was relieved by thinking he's not really satan[/spoiler] and i thought it might be an interesting twist but i never thought about the consequences about his faith, well, i guess he would be shocked to the core, that depends of how strong his faith was at that time, because that topic wasn't never touched in previous issues after quitting the priesthood as long as i remember.

taekwondodo · Post by **taekwondodo** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:34 am

Hadn't thought about that. Uncanny could open a veritable can of worms with this. I mean, if biblical Satan is a falsehood, what else might be? Is Azzy going to go deconstructing Christianity and Judaism from the perspective of someone who was there when they were developing? Show them to be nothing but superstition? I'm sure that's farther than they'd be willing to (or bother to) go, but really, if they're saying Satan's a fiction, then where would you draw the line?

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 12:34 am

Whoa, I never thought about that either....I think it would probably affect him mentally but he wouldn't change the way he acts. I was relieved about that too, KL. What a thought-provoking question/topic....

I'm gonna have to spend a while thinking about this one.....

Northstars Love · Post by **Northstars Love** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:10 am

IMO it won't shake Kurt's faith for very long. Probably most likely strengthen it in the end. He may consider this revelation as a test of his faith. As a believer, your faith is tested sometimes when you at your lowest. When you are in doubt of the existence of something that is not tangible, namely God. He's there if you believe . But sometimes when our faith is tested he seems to be so far away or almost non-existent. Only is our faith made strong by reaffirming those beliefs through the power of prayer.

Marvel wouldn't dare to to even suggest Satan is a myth, superstition or a biblical mutant. Too many fans are Christians and that very hint may offend them. So they have to be careful what they say in print as to not offend anyone's religious beliefs.

Sorte Springer · Post by **Sorte Springer** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:35 am

I am a histiorian of religion, and being so I would say that you don´t have to be a red devil-look- a- like to claime that all known religions are the creations of people themselves, any serious historian of religion would say that.
If you want to, you can explain anything about reilgion, as the result of human social needs, and the ways human cognition work. I recommend reading Peter Berger: The Sacret Canopy, for the social aspect, and Pascal Boyer: The Naturalness of Religious Thought, for the cognitive part. So Azzy can´t say anything that has not already been said.

Futhermore, if you belive that even if the formation of religions can be explain as naturally as all other aspects of human culture, a religion can still be true, because you yourself feel intuitively that it is so, then it still doesen´t matter what Azzy would say to the world about being a devil:
"So you are the guy who was the inspiration for the devils physical appearance... that don´t impress me much"

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 10:30 am

Well, I dont see how Kurt could completely believe Azzys story and keep his faith. Either what Azzy is saying is true, or the Bible is. You simply can’t have it both ways no matter how you want to rationalize it. But I think his faith has already been tested and come out stronger in the Holy War arc. Nowhere in the Bible does it describe Satan with Azzys appearance, so he has some unmitigated gall to call himself that. It’s quite possible Kurt will choose to believe that Azzy was just portraying himself as Satan to gain power and that was where people got the idea that Satan had that appearance.

However, if Marvel was promoting that the Bible is just a legend, they are treading on very shaky ground. I for one am getting tired of them trying to sell comic books through stirring up controversy rather than just telling a good adventure tale.

Entropy · Post by **Entropy** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 2:11 pm

personally i don't think it will have much of an effect. Kurt is who he is and i think he'll take it in stride. i just want to move away from his religous nature, it's a part of him that has been focused way to much on the last few years. we need a balance (such as in old Excalibur).

just because what Azzy says is true does not discredit the bible. You really cannot take most of the old testament literally (along w/ some of New) but not being religous i really don't care.

also, ever noticed that while this is a Kurt focused story it really doesn't seem to give him much screen time?

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:00 pm

Originally posted by **Northstars Love**
IMO it won't shake Kurt's faith for very long. Probably most likely strengthen it in the end. He may consider this revelation as a test of his faith. As a believer, your faith is tested sometimes when you at your lowest. When you are in doubt of the existence of something that is not tangible, namely God. He's there if you believe . But sometimes when our faith is tested he seems to be so far away or almost non-existent. Only is our faith made strong by reaffirming those beliefs through the power of prayer.

Marvel wouldn't dare to to even suggest Satan is a myth, superstition or a biblical mutant. Too many fans are Christians and that very hint may offend them. So they have to be careful what they say in print as to not offend anyone's religious beliefs.

Yes i guess you're right, it could be a test for his faith, but that depends also of how strong was his faith during those days, like i said before, they never touched that aspect after he quit, he just quit and that was it.
And about Satan or not being a myth, i guess that's more delicate but of course Marvel never did it wit h that intention, everybody is free to believe in what they want.

And this is a really good topic! thanks to blue Candle for starting it

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:46 pm

I'm also of the opinion that Azzy has "taken" the role on. The concept of a Lord of Evil is common to all of humanity, and so is the concept of claiming to be more than human. Gilgamesh claimed to be 2/3rds god (an interesting conception that must have been....). The Egyptian pharaohs, the Mayan, Incan, and Aztec supreme leaders, all these were considered gods. The Emperors of China claimed divine ancestry, and the Roman Emperors were commonly worshipped as gods after their death. Even the more modern Western kings claimed to be God's Chosen. It gives their rule a sense of legitimacy that cannot be stripped by their subjects. Hell, he may even believe his own press... but that doesn't make it gospel.

By assuming the role of a previously-existing, anthopormorphized evil, someone as powerful as Azzy surely further influenced the way it would be viewed. He could have easily introduced such archetypes as red skin, pointed ears, fangs, and a tail. But the concept of Satan existed before he took the name. He's merely capitalizing on an existing, convenient belief. And now, since no one is that old, who is there to contradict Azzy's claim that he IS the original Satan?

I know that they have a "truth sayer" at the table, who can (supposedly) tell if Azzy is lying or not. There are two reasons why she's not setting off alarms as he claims his supernatural ancestry:

1) She can't tell when he's lying, or has been instructed to not say anything. Who says that Azzy has to play by his own rules?

2) More likely, Azzy is arrogant enough to believe that he is the metaphysical devil. He's old, he's incredibly powerful, and humans will worship anything with power, so of course he's the originator! He thinks it's true, at least. Whether he's correct or not is open to interpretation. The truthsayer only knows when someone is deliberately lying.

By the way: [spoiler] that archeologist really had it coming. I mean, you're surrounded by incredibly violent and powerful beings, their leader has no problem slaying you out of hand, and his subjects are fanatically loyal. And you insult him at his own table? How stupid can you get?

Now *that's* evolution in action! [/spoiler]

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 4:57 pm

Quote: I for one am getting tired of them trying to selling comic books through stirring up controversy rather than just telling a good adventure tale.

Yes, you are right. Too many in the media, like rock groups & film makers, are being offensive or controversial to make sales rather than creating a good product. If you have to offend to get attention, then that's no creativity at all and it becomes meaningless.

I read somewhere that Marvel was doing a story on Princess Di but canceled it because it would offend her family, William & Harry & her brother, the Earl of Spencer. They made a good decision to cancel it, I think. If they went ahead with it, it would be so unfair to the people who get hurt.

I have not read this issue yet. But I hope it's not too offensive. A lot of people are attracted to this Nightcrawler character because of his spiritual goodness. He becomes inspirational, like Yoda. If you take that away, then what's left? Not much. If you take away what's good in him, then he's nothing more than another blue mutie!

Comments, anyone???

kurtlover · Post by **kurtlover** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:22 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
I'm also of the opinion that Azzy has "taken" the role on. The concept of a Lord of Evil is common to all of humanity, and so is the concept of claiming to be more than human. Gilgamesh claimed to be 2/3rds god (an interesting conception that must have been....). The Egyptian pharaohs, the Mayan, Incan, and Aztec supreme leaders, all these were considered gods. The Emperors of China claimed divine ancestry, and the Roman Emperors were commonly worshipped as gods after their death. Even the more modern Western kings claimed to be God's Chosen. It gives their rule a sense of legitimacy that cannot be stripped by their subjects. Hell, he may even believe his own press... but that doesn't make it gospel.

I agree with this completely, i do remember this phrase for a documentary about the Pharaohs:
"Just imagine waking up everyday and staring at your window, watching the people, they worship you and you live every single day believing you are a god. How would it feel?"

Northstars Love · Post by **Northstars Love** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:40 pm

Quoted by thylacine--I read somewhere that Marvel was doing a story on Princess Di but cancelled it...

Yes, Marvel was going to do a Princess Di story arc in X-Statix as her returning as a resurrected mutant superhero. How tacky is that? Very. I'm glad they decided to drop it due to the outcry from England. That is as bad if they did that to John F Kennedy. Come on Marvel. Think before you write.

IMO it would be a big problem with fans if Kurt lost his faith. Although some fans may want Kurt to become less religious, I want Kurt to remain as he is. Keep his beliefs intact. I've grown quite fond of Kurt as a strong believer in God, and all this despite how the general population reacts about his looks and him being a mutant in general. There is very few mutants being portrayed as beings of faith.

Keep the faith Nighty!:D

Nightcrawler ZERO · Post by **Nightcrawler ZERO** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 6:50 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
I know that they have a "truth sayer" at the table, who can (supposedly) tell if Azzy is lying or not. There are two reasons why she's not setting off alarms as he claims his supernatural ancestry:

1) She can't tell when he's lying, or has been instructed to not say anything. Who says that Azzy has to play by his own rules?

2) More likely, Azzy is arrogant enough to believe that he is the metaphysical devil. He's old, he's incredibly powerful, and humans will worship anything with power, so of course he's the originator! He thinks it's true, at least. Whether he's correct or not is open to interpretation. The truthsayer only knows when someone is deliberately lying.
[/spoiler]

3.) She's there for Azazel's purposes, not anyone elses. She only announces "Truth or Lies" when he prompts her too.

4.) It's not a lie if it's true. Simply because the X-Men and the reader interpret his statements on one level, it does not mean that he's telling the truth on another level. It's a misleading statement, yes, but not an all out lie.

Blue candle · Post by **Blue candle** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:22 pm

I don't think the horned, "seductive" appearing concept of Satan was from the Bible. It showed up in the Middle Ages, during the Witch Hunts. I believe it was based, in part, on the pagan god Pan, and because popular culture at the time referred to witches as concubines of the devil, he got the seductive reputation. Biblically, Satan was a fallen angel. I think I even read somewhere that "Lucifer" means light.
I sincerely hope Kurt doesn't lose his spirituality; that would take so much away from the character, IMO. He got through the Beyonder with his faith intact, and the Holy Wars. (Of course I also didn't like it when God was his sole focus - my favorite portrayal of him was in Excaliber.)
Nightcrawler seems to justify so much of what the X-men, and he in particular, have been put through as worth it for good to overcome evil. He's fought on the side of good, always, and seems to define good or evil based on his faith. Now, Azazel is telling him, in essence, he was spawned from evil. Kurt is a part of Azazel's army by blood, just like they talk about Warren being a part of the angelic army. If this is being written as just two types of mutants from history, then why did Warren's blood burn Kurt?

Oh, and same issue, did anyone catch the comment Azazel made about Margali, [spoiler]"Allies, and eventually much more", to which Kurt replies "You're a real Cassanova". Uh, about Margali's natural kids....Stefan was an insane evil murderer of children and Amanda is the guardien of Limbo...coincidence?[/spoiler] Thoughts? Was this intentional?

Haunt · Post by **Haunt** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 7:48 pm

Hey gang, brand new here but I've been a fan of Nightcrawler for going on 20 years now. Unfortunately I have to admit that I stopped reading/collecting any of the X-titles some years ago, so I really only have a peripheral idea of what has been happening with the character of late.

So aside from introducing myself (and admitting that I don't have enough up-to-date info on this storyline to comment... though I certainly have an opinion) really I just wanted to direct everyone to Newsarama and the news that as of this coming Spring Claremont and Davis will be back in control of UXM and Nightcrawler.

This is awesome news as perhaps my favorite rendition of the character was in his Excalibur days. But his current costume has GOT to go. I personally love the design that either Leinil Francis Yu (solid black with the iconic X on the chest/shoulders) suggested or the Alex Ross version (very similar to the LFY one with the large iconic X, but Ross added the priest collar motif).

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:09 pm

hang on there, that article did not mention which characters would be on Claremonts Uncanny team. do not state rumor as fact, please. just because Claremont will be writing Uncanny does NOT mean he is getting the current Uncanny cast. the writers are choosing all new teams.

Originally posted by Blue candle

Oh, and same issue, did anyone catch the comment Azazel made about Margali, [spoiler]"Allies, and eventually much more", to which Kurt replies "You're a real Cassanova". Uh, about Margali's natural kids....Stefan was an insane evil murderer of children and Amanda is the guardien of Limbo...coincidence?[/spoiler] Thoughts? Was this intentional?

would certainly put a whole new spin on Kurt's relationship with Amanda, if that were true, wouldn't it? :p

as for the larger topic at hand... the thing to remember about Azzy is he is INCREDIBLY arrogant. he believes every word he says about himself. but it is all his *interpertation* of events, and what one believes is different than fact, the truth-sayer merely is able to tell if someone believes what they are saying to be true. if they believe a falsehood, she will say they are telling the truth. if someone believed their dog was an alien, and Fido was telling him that the rest of their kind was coming to take over the Earth, and she was asked to determine if they were telling the truth.... if that person TRULY believed what he was saying to be true, she would say he was telling the truth, even though anyone with some common sense could probably tell you this guy is off his rocker.

but i just want people here to consider one thing. yes, it would be bad if the bible was proven conclusively in the X-Universe to be false, and so i would not want that to happen, and it wont. what's been stated so far is as far as it will go. enough to raise questions, but not far enough to prove it wrong. but by the same token, it should not be proven correct, either. and yet it HAS, or atleast it has been attempted to state by a couple writers that Christianity is correct and the others are wrong. how do you think that makes atheists or those of another religion feel? it's frustrating! i see this as a bit of leveling the playing field more than anything, really. in a work of fiction that is supposed to mimic our world but with super powers, i think that neither side should be proven right. in a book where religion is the core of the story, well that's a different matter, I loved books like Sandman (though there it is more like gods exist because people believe in them, not the other way around, but they are there) but here it is not. everyone's beliefs should be given a fair shake in this world, the same chance of being proven right or wrong, no matter who the biggest audience may be. but that proof should never come (unless it should come in the real world, anyway) i think this story walks that line pretty well. just because there is a guy claiming to be the devil, someone who may have actually filled that roll in the distant past does not disprove the existence of a god, so i think we're still good.

Haunt · Post by **Haunt** » Wed Dec 03, 2003 8:33 pm

Alright, good point Bamfette. I don't know for certain that Nightcrawler will be on the team when Claremont and Davis take over. I've read three or four different articles on the subject though, and I think that it is being assumed Kurt will likely take a role because a) Nightcrawler is more of a "public face" now that X2 has hit so hard, and b) he was unquestionably a favorite of the two writers during their respective runs on Excalibur, particularly during Davis' run as writer/artist.

So I apologize, the assumption notwithstanding it is still not a proven FACT that NC will be under Claremont/Davis again.

And taking a very quick stab at the topic of the thread, I think that Azazel's claims to be THE Satan of Biblical legend (or even just the source of the myths) need not be taken at face value. He could claim anything, he could even BELIEVE anything... it wouldn't make it fact. Sort of like assuming C&D will be writing Nightcrawler soon.

More importantly, even IF Kurt chose to believe everything Az had to say, and even IF that forced Kurt to reevaluate his belief in the Bible and Christianity... having one's BELIEF in the factual details of a religion does not necessarily destroy one's FAITH in that religion. Faith is not the same thing as belief, despite the interchangable way most people use the two words. Kurt could very well maintain his faith in God even if he were forced to question the details of the Biblical texts.

Blue candle · Post by **Blue candle** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:35 am

would certainly put a whole new spin on Kurt's relationship with Amanda, if that were true, wouldn't it?

And how. Maybe Austen was trying to make it more difficult, or at least questionable, for Amanda to be dredged up as a future love interest. (The old no-brainer token girlfriend.) If that's the case, then bless his soul for it.

Gaz · Post by **Gaz** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 12:53 am

I think that Azzy actual thinks himself the devil, though he may not be. I am atheist, so I don't believe in actual God or Satan, but I think that if I were in Kurt's position and all my beliefs were being contradicted, I would doubt either my beliefs or the current occurences. Because Azazel is trapped in that place, it is obviously a reference or a representation of Hell. So where are the damned and sinners? I just think that Azazel claims to be Satan but is just basically a mutant-Hitler who has built himself up with so many followers. What other powers does he have, other than the obvious ones he gave to Kurt?

Ramble ramble blah blah..............

spinifex · Post by **spinifex** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 10:29 am

Just like in X2, I could see Kurt believing that he is being 'tested' by the Lord by this incident.

C-ko

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Thu Dec 04, 2003 1:49 pm

Quote: Although some fans may want Kurt to become less religious, I want Kurt to remain as he is. Keep his beliefs intact. I've grown quite fond of Kurt as a strong believer in God, and all this despite how the general population reacts about his looks and him being a mutant in general. There is very few mutants being portrayed as beings of faith.

I agree totally!

Anyway... I have not been able to get 432 or 433 & therefore do not know what is going on with this story. Can people fill me in??? Please-please-please!

I left off at 431. The stores around where I live have not had either 432 or 433. I don't know why? Also... will this be released as a graphic novel someday so I can catch up?

bamfchickie · Post by **bamfchickie** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:08 am

Although some fans may want Kurt to become less religious, I want Kurt to remain as he is. Keep his beliefs intact.

I've grown quite fond of Kurt as a strong believer in God, and all this despite how the general population reacts about his looks and him being a mutant in general. There is very few mutants being portrayed as beings of faith.

I agree totally!

And I have to agree as well. I'm not a religious person by any means (I consider myself cheerfully agnostic), but Kurt's deep faith was one of things that drew me to him when I first encountered him in the early comics. It was so beautifully done as well, in that it was part and parcel of his being, but not something constantly "in the face" of readers. It's also, incidentally, one of the reasons why I felt movie!Kurt's religion bent was a little overdone - although I DO adore the movie AND Alan's interpretation.

But be that as it may, there's my two cents. I can live with a crisis of faith for our Kurt, but not an abandonment.

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 1:33 pm

Absolutely, Bamfchickie. I totally agree with you 100%.

If the writers had Kurt abandon his faith, then it would ruin the character, I think.

This character is inspirational, like Yoda (can you tell I watch too much sci-fi?).

Plus, it stinks that Kurt's father is the devil! I mean, that's worse than finding out your Dad is Darth Vader -- at least Darth had redeeming qualities!

It would probably make a lot of us feel bad if the writers did this to the fans. Plus, it seems obvious to me that a lot of people in the media today think it's trendy to be cynical or offensive, etc. and they think it boosts sales. But I think it would turn a lot of people off. There is so much trouble in the world today, people want happier stories.

Anyway... Once again, I kept calling stores. I could not get 432. Did I miss anything important? Is 433 out yet?

Blue candle · Post by **Blue candle** » Fri Dec 05, 2003 3:58 pm

Ok, here you go.
432: [spoiler]It opens with Azazel breaking up the free for all, and invites Kiwi Black, Raven, Angel, "the animal(wolverine)", archaelogist, Abyss and Kurt to dinner. Every one else goes to the dungeon. Breaks off to Sammy's house and his parent's dicussing the dad using him as a punching bag. Cain comes to call and discuss things with dear old dad. Mom pulls out her emergency Alpha Flight card. Back to Azazel's dinner and his announcement of being Kurt's dad, as well as Kiwi, Abyss and many undisclosed others. Raven confirmed motherhood and Azazel reveals his friendship wtih Margali and her special favor to him to raise Kurt. The Azazel tells them that he is Satan, Semihazah, Duma, Keriel, Mastema, Beliar, Gadreel, Beelzebub, amid comments of disbelief and horror. Archaelogist throws an insult regarding Azazels truthfulness and gets whacked. Cut back to Alpha Flight showing up to deal with Cain. End.[/spoiler]
433: [spoiler]It opens with Lorna making unkind comments towards Annnie hiding under the table after "seeing" [/spoiler][spoiler]what Lorna had seen. They bring up the question finally of where Carter is. Cut to the dungeon with Jubilee, Paige, Alex, Carter and Bobby's head. They're discussing their predicament and Carter reveals that Bobby's head is thinking nasty things about Alex regarding Lorna and Annie. Alex remarks that he's had a lot of water to drink and could possibly help Bobby out in forming a new body. Back to Cain and Alpha Flight with lots of property damage, Sammy is trying to get mom out of there, and finds out that his dad is only broken up a little. Back to Azzy....he[/spoiler][spoiler]is claiming ownership of the Earth and everything on it. Jillian, female bat version of Nightcrawler, gropes Kurt under the table during Azazel's speech and wants to know if he is interested in her. Kurt makes a reference to the Scarlet Witch in response to what Azzy is saying, "Any science sufficiently advanced is indistinguishable from magic". NC says that the Scarlet Witch has been on his mind lately, then seems to get back to the subject at hand with the conclusion from Azzy's rambling that he is trying to say he is a mutant from biblical times. This is the part where is gets a bit out there. Azazel claims that he and the demons and angels from the bible are really mutants and that he challanged God way back and was cast out by angels and imprisoned in this dimension. Angel is condemned after refusing to talk to Azazel; it's decided Wolverine should be tortured to death and Azazel tells them to get comfortable in case they are stuck there for another 20 years while he makes a new batch of offspring to open the portal. Ok, back to Cain and AF... in summary, Sammy's mom gets clobbered by a large object, and it shows Sammy's holding her hand while she is laying there looking none too healthy. Back to Azazel. Kiwi refuses to help and is condemned. They're down to Nils (Abyss) and Kurt. Azzy talks about how they both open holes into this dimension, Kurt to teleport, Nils to teleport objects. Azzy still wants help in getting out. Cut to Lorna, Professor and Annie inspecting the crater on the Isle Des Demonas; Lorna talks about a recent rip in the spatial fabric and sticks her hand in to open it; it thins and the three on the Isle can see Azzy and Kurt talking about how the hole has to be opened from both sides. Azazel refers to his relationship with Margali, she helped him come through to Earth, and she was his ally and "much more". They discuss the logistics of being able to open a hole big enough for Azazels army, and about how no one person is powerful enough alone. Az reiterates that someone has to be on the other side to help, a hole opens in Nil's[/spoiler][spoiler]stomach, and you can see Lorna, Professor and Annie on the other side. Nils screams. End.[/spoiler]