A frivolous tail rant

bluefooted · Post by **bluefooted** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:01 am

Okay, I rarely post in this forum, but I'm going to today

I just got that reload pic - the cover by Alan Davis w/ Nighty's tail - and, to my horror, I noticed that the fur was... going the wrong way

My evidence:
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/bluefoote ... etails.jpg

the whole tail:
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/bluefoote ... s/tail.jpg

Anyway, as a biologist, this bothers me on some weird biology level I didn't know I had. All mammals share a similar pattern of fur growth direction. There are some odd exceptions, but, I mean corresponding parts generally have hair directions that are similar - e.g., the fur on your arm and a dog's leg both grow towards the extremity and around to the back of the limb. And fur on a tailed animal grows towards the end of the tail, dammit!

I have no doubts about Davis' ability to draw a great Kurt and I'm excited by his return. This is a completely frivolous topic. But, I just wanted to know what you thought. Should Kurt's fur grow in the same direction as the fur of other mammals? And doesn't the fur on the tail look a little long and scary? Like creepy back hair?

btw: this post is for Greg who didn't give a crap when I told him this shocking tale (pun intended) and who, as a fellow biologist, should care!

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:16 am

Hi... yeah... this is a frivolous topic, but you are right. All mammals should have their fur going the right way, mutant or not.

Here is a logical explanation for you... All that jumping around and teleporting and fighting evil science fiction villains has just messed up his fur, that's all!

bluefooted · Post by **bluefooted** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 12:30 am

Hey, now! It's no more frivolous than the 'what kind of pet would Kurt have' thread

At least I admit it!

Good theory, btw.

Mistress D · Post by **Mistress D** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:09 am

Woah. :o I am amazed to find that some people are even more anal then I am.. Man, I would have never noticed that! And I agree with you, exept that I always thought that there was no fur on his tail. Maybe a little near the base, but I thought that it was just blue skin. Okay, here's prettymuch how I have mapped out his tail. It's all muscle, like your tongue or something, exept maybe some bones and some fur near the base, and the spade is cartilage. At least that's my theory.... You know what? We are all very sad, warped people... O_O Here we are, debating over the structure of a tail of a fictional character... But then again, I ask myself, is there anything I'd rather be doing...? Of course not!

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:37 am

yea, don't even get me started on people who insist on having Nighty's tail growing out of the middle of his lower back, or worse, his anus. O.o

taekwondodo · Post by **taekwondodo** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 2:31 am

well darn, I never would have noticed that blue. You're right, it's very irritating - and a stupid error for an artist to make, honestly. Imagine your dog or cat w/the fur growing towards its butt...just wrong. I'm with you on the fur length issue too. I didn't even think his *body* fur was quite that long, forget his tail fur.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:40 am

oh, the way artists draw his tail never ceases to annoy me... i never noticed the fur, never really looked, but you're right! what really gets me though is when his tail is growig out of his ass >.< i HATE that.

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:12 am

In a way, Kurt's tail resembles an arrow, so the natural way to show hairs would be pointing in the same direction. It probably didn't occur to him that an animal's would lie in the opposite direction. I would have never noticed if you hadn't pointed it out.

I just hope AD gives him a longer tail than in Excalibur. That was my only complaint about the way he drew Kurt.

NWKurt · Post by **NWKurt** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:23 am

Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the tail suposed to be the extention of the backbone? Do some folk not undersatnd that?

As far as I know, my cats tail is part of that extention, and all the x-rays I've seen in my college bio classes show the same for every other mammal with a tail.

Hmmmm, Kurt thru an X-ray.........

:smirkHope this reply isn't as frivolous as my other post!:P (meant with a smile!)

Tracker · Post by **Tracker** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:54 am

Huh, I would have never noticed that. But now that I'm looking, the fur near the tip of his tail seems to be growing outward, while the rest is pretty much haphazard. Hmmmm....

And I'm with Shadow Dancer...Kurt needs to have a longer tail than what Davis seems to have given him.

Garble · Post by **Garble** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:04 am

Hmm.... *looks at pic*

It looks like on this pic that his fur changes directions at some point on his tail.
If you look at the spaded end, you'll see the fur is growing towards the spade (in much the same way as a cat's fur grows towards the tail end). But as you can see in the close up, the end near his body seems to have fur growing in the opposite direction.

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:32 am

Originally posted by NWKurt
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't the tail suposed to be the extention of the backbone? Do some folk not undersatnd that?

EXACTLY. That's why I get ticked off when it's coming out of the middle of his back. It's like, "where's his pelvis and the associated muscles supposed to connect, smart guy?" The out-of-the-bum thing actually annoys me less, unlike most folks. If the crazy fan artists were smart, they'd picture where the coccyx (however you spell it, what's left of a tail in "normal" humans" anyhow) is and extend his tail from that position, perhaps slightly above but not as dramatically as most like to put it. It would certainly be lower than the majority of artists put it, even a lot of the ones working for Marvel.

here's a reference picture, skeletal: http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/anatom ... index.html

muscular: http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/anatom ... ghleg.html

An infant with an actual vestigial tail (warning: naked baby bum): http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/anatom ... es/19.html

(the whole thing: http://www.vh.org/adult/provider/anatom ... ofanatomy/ )l

The Drastic Spastic · Sat Mar 20, 2004 11:36 am

I think it's just that the pencilling is a bit scratchy. RELAX. The hair is all going the right way. Although... quite a lot of hair eh? And long... But - but it's Alan Davis. Therefore, it is most excellent.

Alan has always drawn the tail coming out correct (imo, maybe Sam wouldn't agree

) and and just... damn.

I'm so excited about Alan Davis doing Kurt again. I promised myself I wouldn't be but I JUST. CAN'T. HELP IT. Eeeeee.

NWKurt · Post by **NWKurt** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:27 pm

...they'd picture where the coccyx (however you spell it, what's left of a tail in "normal" humans" anyhow)

WOW! Those pics threw me right back into Dr Haas' Bio 301 class! What a trip! Yeup, those anatomy books had just about the same pics in them from what I remember, but nothing as dramatic as those links. Poor kid, that looks like it could be painfull.

And as for the coccyx, yes TelegramSam, you are correct in the spelling and the definition. One person in my family has had a slightly elongated coccyx, producing Coccydynia ("tailbone pain", not fun!):bawl So I have picked up quite a bit over the years about the condition and the placement of the "tail". Kurt has it too easy!

As for the fur, yes I agree, someone needs to wake up the proofer to mind the pics before they are sent out to press. Fur going backward...what a concept!

Thanks again for those links!:eek

fallacy · Post by **fallacy** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:08 pm

hallo together

anyway the tail looks great to me =;-)))

i hope the rest of kurt lokks the same way =:-DD

thanks for the links!!! thy are very detail true (or what´s that in english

)

grüsse alex

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sat Mar 20, 2004 9:15 pm

Originally posted by fallacy

thanks for the links!!! thy are very detail true (or what´s that in english )

Is "accurate" the word youre looking for?

bluefooted · Post by **bluefooted** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:36 am

Well, I'm relieved that at least someone cares

The hair goes the wrong way near the base of his tail, then seems to switch to sort of random hair directions towards the spade.

And ya'll brought up another point that bugs me: where should Kurt's tail originate? I know many people express shock and horror if the tail is drawn 'coming out of his ass' - and I know Dave has warned artists that it should never be drawn that way

- but if it starts where your coccyx is it would look very much like it's doing exactly that.

crappy drawing to illustrate point:
http://www.angelfire.com/art2/bluefoote ... eleton.jpg

Except, that it's not really 'coming out of his ass' but just above it, technically. So, the whole crouching thing makes sense: Kurt would have a really hard time sitting on his butt like a normal person. I suppose he could always, sort of, sit on his tail - so that he looks like he has 3 legs hanging off the edge of the chair

The thing that really bugs me is when it's coming out of the small of his back

It just looks freakish.

Ahhh, don't you love having time to kill?

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:20 am

well if you look at animals, in most of them the base of the tail begins just above the anus.

When I mean that some pictures look like it's "coming out of his ass" I mean that the tail doesn't appear to be a continuation of the spine, it looks like somebody just glued it onto his backside. It should be a fairly smooth transition.

If you want to be anatomically correct, the tail bones would begin just ever so slightly below where the rise of the buttocks begins when standing upright. Depending on how thickly you draw the tail, it would probably be level with the "cheeks." Kurt does crouch quite abit though, so it would be a little higher than the "cheeks" in most cases, but certainly NOT coming out of the middle of the sacrum like most people seem to draw it.

here's another craptastic diagram:

BamfChyck · Post by **BamfChyck** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 8:56 am

Wasn't there a time when Kitty sprayed hairspray on his arm and made the hair go the wrong way?
I think she (or somebody) snuck into his room and did it to his tail! Maybe as and April Fool's day joke!

NWKurt · Post by **NWKurt** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:57 pm

You must also remember that the muscle tissue needs a place to attach to. In Kurts case, probably the whole back surface of the sacrum would be plastered with muscle fibers from the tail. The taper off the coccyx is important, just as TelegramSam points out.

All the good drawings I've seen of Nighties upper tail show that it flairs out to about (I guess) about 4-5 inches in diameter to allow for the muscle girth contained inside to evenly distribute to the sacrum. When hanging or swinging, that muscle would also aid in support by tension on the muscle, then transfered directly to the sacrum, then to the rest of the body. Not all the stress from his tail would be placed on the bony internal structure.

Talk about frivolous (still I get a laugh off that one:LOL), had to try this out in Photoshop. The jacket is a bit baggy in the back due to the wind, but still this should be a good representation of it should work on me. Now, only if I can get my halloween costume to look this good:D

Frivolous content, not in the least. This is Fictional Anatomy 101:idea. Fun Stuff!

fallacy · Post by **fallacy** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 7:52 pm

the picture looks kinda cute :-)

@TelegramSam

ja, danke!!!!

grüsse alex

TelegramSam · Post by **TelegramSam** » Sun Mar 21, 2004 9:27 pm

NWKurt, I love that picture. Where are you? It reminds me of trains at the beginning of Benny & Joon. (a very cute old Johnny Depp movie btw)

NWKurt · Post by **NWKurt** » Mon Mar 22, 2004 2:03 am

Achhhh! I didnt even think about the association between Benny and Joon, your right! Probably because most of the movie was filmed up here in the Spokane WA area. The NW part of Washington state does indeed look like where this photo was taken, rivers and lakes everywhere, and all those trees we have.

The photo was taken here in Oregon up in the Columbia River Gorge, off I-84, at an exit called Wyeth, about 50 miles east Portland. There is this rock that you can climb to the top of that overlooks the river. It is a nice quiet spot I go to, to think and just be alone sometimes. Very quiet (except when the wind kicks up!), and beautiful.

I cropped the photo as the resolution of the original is a bit big; too big for this forum. Didnt want to overextend the general width of the screen you are looking at right now.

I was up there playing around with my cameras auto shutter timer one day and was thinking about my Kurt costume I'm working on. Then thought, hmmmm, I could have a bit of fun with Photoshop if I get this picture taken. Well, the timing with the train turned out pretty good and the editing took about 30 minutes to get the tail to look right (no fur on this one).

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 3:18 am

I think perhaps Alan got a teensy bit carried away with the tail close-up like that. Like Bluefooted, I think that the fur is entirely too long. It should be velvety and short, all of one length. He took a lot of "artistic license" when he gave it the look of a smooth-coat dog (like a terrier or dachshund). That hair looks a good quarter to half inch long, and, by association, shaggy. At the proper length (downy soft, short, and incredibly dense), we shouldn't even be able to see which way it grows.

Kind of like the difference between velour and "fake fur".

Oh, what the Hell. DAVIS IS BACK! YEEEE-HAW!!

Shadow_Dancer · Post by **Shadow_Dancer** » Tue Mar 23, 2004 9:16 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Oh, what the Hell. DAVIS IS BACK! YEEEE-HAW!!

My sentiments exactly!!!

AND, with Claremont, and with Ro, Logan and Kurt back in the same book.

Does it get any better than that?