The Winding Way (Nightcrawler #7-11) SPOILERS on last 2 page

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Post by Diablo » Sat Aug 27, 2005 11:43 am

Excellent issue !
The climax sounds promising !!

And who the hell is behind all this ??
Someone who can control Vermin, Nightmare, Man-thing,... A powerful oppenant, indeed.
Really, really interesting.
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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sat Aug 27, 2005 12:04 pm

Who would ever want revenge on Kurt?:shifty :azazel
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Post by Nandireya » Sat Aug 27, 2005 1:19 pm

Originally posted by Blue_Demon94
Who would ever want revenge on Kurt?:shifty :azazel
Could be :belasco wanting his sword and realm back...
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Post by Diablo » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:12 am

My money is on Belasco, too... because of the soulsword.
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Post by Nandireya » Sun Aug 28, 2005 1:40 am

I enjoyed it…despite the discrepancies…Uncanny Origins #8 clearly states that Kurt didn’t accept Jardine’s offer because the creep said he wanted Kurt for “…Amos Jardine’s jaw-droppin’, heart-stoppin’, bladder-loosenin’, 100% authentic freak show…”, and Feuer Langhagen states in Uncanny X-Men #407 that he’d retired from the circus life…but I think it said in the original synopsis that things weren’t going to be exactly like Kurt remembered…
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Post by Lauren » Mon Aug 29, 2005 5:24 am

Man, that issue was intense, but that little kid was cute. For some reason I thought he looked like a little John Lennon in that one picture. Don't ask me why, but he kinda looks like him. *shrug* That kid was cool.
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Post by Bitsy » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:19 am

Originally posted by Lauren
Man, that issue was intense, but that little kid was cute. For some reason I thought he looked like a little John Lennon in that one picture. Don't ask me why, but he kinda looks like him. *shrug* That kid was cool.
Wow....and me being an avid Beatles fan, I should've picked up on that. But yeah, now that you mention it, he did look like Lennon. "All you need is love, Kurt"

Oh, and who is this Belasco and Nightmare and Venom you all speak of? (Newbie, sorry.....)

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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:14 pm

Do you mean Vermin? Well I don't know much about them either, but I know Belasco used to be the ruler of Limbo and wanted Illyana Rasputin (Colossus' sister) to be his heir..
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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 29, 2005 3:43 pm

This whole thing has left me scratching my chin in thought. :scratch When you start thinking about it, there's an incredible amount of "even darker darkness" luring under a dark exterior.

[spoiler]
*Jardine's application of mutant suppression/pacification serum is troubling enough. What kind of underworld contacts did he have to be able to get ahold of what is essentially heavy-duty military wetware? Unless his "control serum" is something more along the lines of phenobarbitol, that stuff would be something on the restricted list, just due to the expense of creating it.

* He led Kurt over for the sole purpose of spending large amounts of money to keep him in a freak show? He said straight-out that it was costing him a LOT to do this, which implies a long period of preparation on his part, all for keeping a slave. Is this personal vindictiveness against physical mutants? Or, worse, does it make a warped amount of economic sense? Which leads to...

* Jesus H Christ, how many must have wanted to see someone like NC drugged in a cage to allow Jardine to break even, let alone make his profit?? This is truly disturbing! Is that kind of sideshow mentality that strong throughout the Marvel universe? Or only in their version of Florida? Yes, I realize that was supposed to be ten years ago, but it's only ten years! Not 100! Gawking at March-of-Dimes level human abnormalities isn't socially acceptable anymore.

* Abusive carnivals are always attracting the ire of animal rights groups, welfare groups, and the police. Yet NO ONE bothered to question Kurt's state, except a young boy! Did Kurt get freed so fast that the police had no chance to raid the place? (Doubtful: Jardine's circus is still in the same spot after all that time. If he got busted, he almost certainly would have moved.) Were the police corrupt and in on the whole thing? The fact that said boy picked the lock tends to point to the latter: he obviously distrusted authority so much he was willing to break the law to do what he knew was right. If he was in his mid-teens I could understand that better... but he didn't look more than 12. And at that age, he has Ororo's skills and Xavier's conscience: that's a very grown-up child. I have to wonder what kind of life he's lead to bring him to that: you don't usually learn to pick locks in middle-class, suburban America.



The entire arc so far has had the abstract feeling of a nightmare. The first one had Kurt trapped in a fever dream, the second one left the reader sometimes going back and trying to figure out where the nightmares ended and reality began. And now, we see that even Nightmare himself has been used as a pawn by someone of great, insideous power, which gives more depth and body to everything leading up to this. Unlike so many of the other series out there, *this* one weaves everything together in a way you couldn't immediately suspect, and I truly enjoy that.

While it would make sense that Belasco would want that soulsword, I'm a bit confused about Belasco as a whole, though. I guess being in Limbo means never having to adhere to continuity. Can I assume that the Earth X arc, in which Kurt turned out to be Belasco, is not in effect for regular contiuity?[/spoiler]
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Post by HoodedMan » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:05 pm

Originally posted by Maelstrom
[spoiler]
* Jesus H Christ, how many must have wanted to see someone like NC drugged in a cage to allow Jardine to break even, let alone make his profit?? This is truly disturbing! Is that kind of sideshow mentality that strong throughout the Marvel universe? Or only in their version of Florida? Yes, I realize that was supposed to be ten years ago, but it's only ten years! Not 100! Gawking at March-of-Dimes level human abnormalities isn't socially acceptable anymore.
Isn't it, though? Think about it. Humans have always had a morbid interest in abnormalities, and I've noticed no change in our society to the contrary in the last 20 years. Though you and I may not be one of them, plenty of people would pay to see such a thing.
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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Mon Aug 29, 2005 8:40 pm

That's what the freak show is for... "Come one come all and see the one-legged uni-cyclist juggling with his one hand!":eek:LOL
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Post by Maelstrom » Mon Aug 29, 2005 9:18 pm

What I'm remembering is several documentaries on Physical Freak Shows of the past, and how since the 60s they've plunged in popularity due to public pressure. Yeah, people will pay a couple bucks to see a cow with a fifth leg, but staring at a human with a conjoined twin is a cultural faux-pas. (Which, ironically, was a real problem for the participants; the "bearded ladies", "half-men", "Siamese Twins", and so on had their livelihoods taken away without anything to replace the income. They were stuck in this PC limbo-nightmare: we know it's not right to pay money and gawk at you, but we sure as hell won't let you make us uncomfortable viewing you all the time by giving you a job.)

The modern freak shows I know of are more performance art: guys with tattoos over 90% of their body, fire-eaters, spike-sitters, piercing fanatics, bowling-ball-fired-from-cannon-catchers, etc. All the ones that feature physical deformities are small-time, local affairs, of which Jardine's circus certainly was one (hence that "circus that time forgot" line)... but they also barely make enough money to keep the actors fed. If Jardine was spending that much $$ on his "star attraction", it means that this universe has a real fascination with deformities that no longer exists in 21st century America.

Which I can easily accept, given Marvel's "mutants are treated as filth" rules. It's just very disturbing to see the depths, the horrific end result, of that atitude.

Which I'm also certain was exactly the reaction the creative team intended. ;)
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl » Mon Aug 29, 2005 10:43 pm

After Maelstrom's posts this is gonna be pathetic on my part...gimme a break school is the pits.

I, for one, thought that Nightmare was cool. I like his character and his odd sense of humor, don't forget his cool outfit with it's twisted shoulders. it made me think of a Tim Burton film, thats a bloody good thing in my book. For some reason, I was reading his voice in a British accent. He's got that evil/good twist feeling floating about him...

My friend actually started crying when she read [spoiler]that kurt was drugged and put in a cage, so cold, alone. Nobody to hug him. People mostlikely taunting him. That's just twisted and inhumane.[/spoiler]
*sniffles*:cry

As a whole....bloody good stuff, give my regards to the team!:thumbup
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Post by Bitsy » Tue Aug 30, 2005 1:16 am

*tch tch* And they want to CANCEL Nightcrawler??? I mean, do they realize how excellent of a job Darick has done? This might just be my naivity talking, but I just saw about four or five incredibly intelligent and thought-provoking threads about Kurt's abuse and freak shows. Cancelling this series is seriously the stupidest thing Marvel's ever done....or hopefully, THOUGHT of doing...

OH, and Malestrom *claps* Bravo! That thread rocked! You made a lot of good points.

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Post by Saint Kurt » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:37 am

Originally posted by Bitsy
*tch tch* And they want to CANCEL Nightcrawler???
Actually Marvel doesn't want to cancel Nightcrawler. They have cancelled Nightcrawler. Past tense. That's what we're protesting. And if we're lucky maybe they'll "un-cancel" it.

But, there are still 3 issues left.

So I've been kind of ashamed to say this, but for a little while I wasn't really liking this arc. Basically it seemed like "If you're going to go through all the trouble of exploring Nightcrawler's character history, at least get it right."

Nightcrawler #7 didn't so much have this problem but issues #8 and #9 appeared to me to be either poorly researched or sloppily written, I couldn't decide which. (Well, #7 had medical jargon in it which is a personal pet peeve, but I'll forgive Roberto for this because I've been happy with his work otherwise :). Still... His brain is seizing? What does that mean? It sounds like something a car engine would do.)

Anyway, here's a summary of what Kurt does in #8 and #9 and you'll see why it bugged me:

[spoiler]After a miraculous recovery from a near fatal beating/illness Kurt goes camping in Germany with his friends. While there he has his first flashback to his past, throughout which he spells his foster brother's name wrong. He remembers how "Stephen" was afraid of his family's special abilities including Kurt's ability to teleport and Magali's magic. (For some reason Kurt and Stephen both dress like Gaucho waiters in all of Kurt's memories.)

Kurt's memory of Stephen evolves into another flashback involving him rescuing Amanda from a malfunctioning trapeze situation by teleporting her to safety. It's a touching moment until Amanda points out that everyone else is dead. But it turns out that Kurt was standing outside in the woods the whole time so was that a dream or a memory or what? Not that it matters because by the time they finally reach the circus, which was hidden so deep in the woods that it required a 2 day hike to get there it's on fire and there's only one survivor.

Scott mysteriously appears with the Blackbird to take that survivor to the hospital. Kurt immediately "steals" that Blackbird to fly back to Florida to another mysterious hidden circus. This mysterious hidden circus is owned by "Monsieur Jardine" who apparently once thought it was worth it to spend a fortune on "mutant suppressant" drugs just to keep Kurt locked up there. Lucky for Kurt some random kid had the key to the cage and freed him. Now, despite not knowing where the circus is (it's still mysterious and hidden) or why he's going there, Kurt hanglides there to warn Jardine that he might be in danger. Unfortunately, Jardine doesn't care.

So, there's some other stuff going on on the sides, but that's pretty much everything that Kurt does. Does that make any sense at all? The details of his character history are strangely off (why is Stephan's name mispelled? Why isn't Jardine's circus in Texas?) and his actions are knitted together so loosely that if I hadn't read the first 2 arcs of Nightcrawler I would be tempted to blame it on sloppy writing. But if it's not sloppy writing or bad research then what is it?

I decided it must be the story and went looking for explanations in the images. I finally think I found one. In all of Kurt's "wrong" flashbacks, there is that trunk from book #7.

- In book #8, when Kurt spies on Margali doing magic in her caravan, the trunk is there.
- Again in book 8, the trunk is in Amanda's dressing room as she prepares to go on that night.
- The trunk makes a very obvious appearance in Jardine's office in the past in book #9, but it is not noticable in the present.

I think the trunk is the key. The appearance of it and the fact that the plot is so nuts makes me think that Kurt has not gone anywhere with anyone and is still unconscious. I think some, if not all of the aspects of the plot involving Nightcrawler are still going on inside his own head.[/spoiler]

That's my proposal for where the plot of this arc is going. Agree? Disagree? Any other ideas?

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Post by HoodedMan » Thu Sep 01, 2005 12:40 am

Like I told you but I'll keep this thread open: I think this is a very interesting idea and it does seem to fit well with the facts. It seems to be something Marvel would do, and there's a lot of evidence for it. The writers aren't sloppy.

That'd be cool and make sense; sounds good to me!
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Post by Diablo » Thu Sep 01, 2005 7:53 pm

Waow, I'm impressed, Zam !
Your theory rocks. It's true some moments are really bizarre...
I don't think [spoiler] Kurt is still asleep, but there's definitely something wrong. He's following a path made of lies and darkness. [/spoiler]
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Post by Savory_Elf » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:54 am

I have to agree with Zamweasel (Saint Kurt?). I've been speculating about the direction of the plot for a while now, and Kurt being asleep seems to be the only thing that really makes sense. The sequence of events is so disjunct that it makes them seem unrealistic. I don't know about anyone else, but I'd bet he's still laid out on that strangely oversized gurney in Beast's lab.

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Post by kladyelf » Fri Sep 02, 2005 10:34 am

Random thought:

since i only have the ish where nighty was in a fever dream (which i have loaned to a friend so i can't remember the ish no. - ish 7?) and the whole thing apparrently has an unreal quality to it (i can't get any further issues at the moment - arg.) all this speculation about the past being not what Nighty remembers has me wondering too who the big baddie is (and considering that this is the Marvel U where death is optional for some..)

...


What if the Baddie is Stefan (sp?) himself? having faked his death using his mothers magic, (or something) staying hidden in the background with his (possible) psychosis, and (again possible) magic powers ... only the illusions woven around Nighty are wearing off?

just a ramblin' lil' thought :D
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Post by Nandireya » Fri Sep 02, 2005 3:02 pm

Originally posted by Saint Kurt
Originally posted by Bitsy
*tch tch* And they want to CANCEL Nightcrawler???
Actually Marvel doesn't want to cancel Nightcrawler. They have cancelled Nightcrawler. Past tense. That's what we're protesting. And if we're lucky maybe they'll "un-cancel" it.
So I've heard via the Internet...but I haven't seen any one actually admit it formally…there was nothing in the latest Marvel Previews to indicate it was cancelled…they not got the guts or what? I did I miss something?
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Post by HoodedMan » Fri Sep 02, 2005 7:11 pm

Sometimes companies like this don't want to make a formal announcement, either because it's not worth it or there hasn't been a "corporate decision" to cancel it, it's just understood. There can be many reasons for no formal announcement and we have it on very good RL (what's the word... terms?) that it's cancelled.
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Post by Nandireya » Sat Sep 03, 2005 4:27 pm

Originally posted by CurlyyHairGirl
I, for one, thought that Nightmare was cool. I like his character and his odd sense of humor, don't forget his cool outfit with it's twisted shoulders. it made me think of a Tim Burton film, thats a bloody good thing in my book. For some reason, I was reading his voice in a British accent. He's got that evil/good twist feeling floating about him...
Just before The Draco came out I asked Dave who he thought Nightcrawler's father should be...he picked Nightmare...
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Post by Saint Kurt » Sat Sep 03, 2005 9:18 pm

... Zamweasel (Saint Kurt?).
Yes. :)
Just before The Draco came out I asked Dave who he thought Nightcrawler's father should be...he picked Nightmare...
Well, Darick has certainly drawn him in a way that makes him look related to Kurt. There's a few panels where he's hanging upside down where his general similarity to Nightcrawler is really striking. (Though he looks very different to Nightcrawler as drawn by Darick if that makes any sense.) And I agree that the characterization of Nightmare in this is just delicious. He does look very Tim Burton-esque and when he speaks I hear the voice of Jeremy Irons. (Also when you first see him with Amanda I am reminded of Dream from Sandman.)

As far as my plot suggestion, I'm suprised no one else noticed the most glaring error:

[spoiler]Kurt describes Winzeldorf in loving terms as "his home", where he "grew up", and "was born", but unless I'm mistaken Winzeldorf is none of those things. Winzeldorf is the name of the town where Kurt was running away from a mob with torches and pitchforks (tm) who were trying to drive a stake into his heart because he was a demon who'd been killing children (they had been killed by Stephan) and had now killed a man (again Stephan - Kurt accidently broke his neck in a struggle after discovering that he had killed the children). Winzeldorf was also the place where Charles Xavier discovered Kurt - stopping the mob and offering Kurt the chance to come be an X-Man.

The way it is right now in Nightcrawler #9, Kurt would have to fly back to Germany from Florida in order to flee the mob. (Though it turns out that I'm wrong about Jardine's circus being in Texas. He was from Texas, but his circus was based in Florida.) Still - the point was, Kurt didn't go. :) [/spoiler]

As for the cancellation of the book - I've heard it from enough people who are intimately involved with the project that I feel it's safely out of rumor category. Also, in a Q & A at Chicago's Wizard World in the beginning of August Dan Buckley answered a question about Nightcrawler saying it would not run past issue 12. I had already known it was due for cancellation but couldn't say anything since there was no formal public announcement. It was Dan Buckley who made it possible for me put the letter writing champaign into action and that is why he is directly mentioned in the first paragraph of our protest form letter, so Marvel knows where we got our information.

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Post by theatrepirate » Sun Sep 04, 2005 6:11 pm

Oh, jinkies!! I haven't visited here in forever! Now, I see there's a place just devoted to this comic series! I'm was little late getting starting with the Nightcrawler series, but I caught up fast. I'm glad some other people feel the same way I do about some of these issues. (zam/st. kurt) Wonder why there wasn't more research done? Anyway, you guys are awesome to read and I love hearing your ideas!!
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Post by Blue_Demon94 » Sun Sep 04, 2005 7:14 pm

Originally posted by Saint Kurt

[spoiler]Kurt describes Winzeldorf in loving terms as "his home", where he "grew up", and "was born", but unless I'm mistaken Winzeldorf is none of those things. Winzeldorf is the name of the town where Kurt was running away from a mob with torches and pitchforks (tm) who were trying to drive a stake into his heart because he was a demon who'd been killing children (they had been killed by Stephan) and had now killed a man (again Stephan - Kurt accidently broke his neck in a struggle after discovering that he had killed the children). Winzeldorf was also the place where Charles Xavier discovered Kurt - stopping the mob and offering Kurt the chance to come be an X-Man.[/spoiler]
When I read the issue I was sure he wasn't from Winzeldorf too, but that I was wrong.. I knew he was driven to Winzeldorf by the villagers and seeing as I have the issue that it occured in, I knew Xavier had rescued him there... I'm glad I wasn't wrong about him not being from Winzeldorf..
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