Nightscrawlers

Originally posted by Angelique
Well, it's my theory that Azzy isn't really a demon. He said himself that he's a mutant. I just think he's so convinced of what a baddie he is, he went a bit .

I know it's been discussed before, and Azazel is supposed to be a really long-lived mutant who inspired the version of the devil in Christian tradition (but not in the bible because there is no devil in the bible!) Because of that, I suppose, he's a very satanic looking character which I think was a very poor direction to take

At the same time I guess making Kurt's father a long-dead person of royal blood doesn't create a lot of compelling story opportunities. But, neither would making him the result of one of Raven's dalliences with an unknown, totally human father.

It just seems like a let-down to me to imply at all that Nightcrawler is anything less than human (mutant yes, but that's human too) Azazel may not be a demon - but he acts like one and lives in a demonic dimension. I think Kurt deserves better :

(but not in the bible because there is no devil in the bible!)

There's no red-skinned guy with pointy ears and a tail in the Bible, you mean. There certainly is a devil.

I thought Azazel was a demon with a mutant gean are a human who mutated into a demon. Like kurt could be a real demon with this mutant gean, are a mutant who looks like a demon because of the fact his father so demonic. we can't foget Kurt is second generation.

A demon mutated into a demon? I'll address what I think your post is saying.

I admit that I haven't kept up with the comics as much as I have (except for the series, of course), but as far as I know, a demon cannot get the mutant gene. Also, Kurt couldn't be a demon due to his mutant gene, he only looks like a demon.

Though on the other side, if Kurt is really descended from Azazel, he'd be human. Kurt's human; the father is logically human if the Marvel world uses normal genetics.

Of course, we must all remember one thing: This is a comic. It can be either, or both, or neither at all. Or both in two different series. Continuity or agreement is not required.

You see, this is the problem at the heart of the Draco. First, Azazel announces, "I am not only your father, Kurt, but I'm also Satan." Then, he starts in on this rant about "his" earth, which somehow leads Kurt to the conclusion that Azazel is a "mutant from biblical times"! We all know the tale, sad as it may be. But the problem here is that no one ever really understands WHAT Azazel is. Is he a demon? Is he a mutant? Is he a piece of laundry lint? These are the questions that will continue to plague us, until Marvel rectifies the horrendous black hole that is the Draco arc.

I like my explanation- that Azzy's a crazy mutant who thinks he's Satan.

I like both explanations, that he's an ancient mutant claiming to be Satan (which I had always assumed was the truth anyway) and that he is indeed a piece of lint (interesting theory ElfSpam)..

Well I took the time to be a geek and translate some things form draco.

Neyaphem. I think this means A mutant demon. are what ever Azazel is.

Cheyaphem. mutant who looks like an angel

Isla Des demonas. Island of demons.

there is one more but i need to write it down it somthink Yidirzal said.

any one else want to have a go at a translation game.

Oh, don't get me going on how the languages were slaughtered. For starters, it's Isla DE Demonas. The word for "of" doesn't need to be pluaralized. And, in Hebrew, anything ending with "im" is plural. But I won't come down to hard on that. After all, this was good for a laugh.

I thought Des was the wrong translation, but then again Marvel isn't always precise with their translations (En Sabah Nur means the seven lights, not The First One.. among others..)

Okay…I’ve said it before, but it seems I have to say it again. Kurt IS human. It is explicitly stated in Uncanny X-Men Annual #4 by Dr Strange: “At first glance I assumed Nightcrawler to be some human/demon hybrid…yet the all-seeing eye’s light of truth reveals him to be human in his essence.â€

I do have that comic so now we know Neyaphem probably means human mutated into a demon. are somthink like that.

The Yidrizal one is before he killes that guy. still haven't write it down though.

Originally posted by elfofdoom
I do have that comic so now we know Neyaphem probably means human mutated into a demon. are somthink like that.

The Yidrizal one is before he killes that guy. still haven't write it down though.

I'm a little fuzzy on this idea here that by arbitrarily deciding what things must mean, you have somehow done authoritative research on the topic.

"Neyaphem" is the word "Neplilim" with an alternative spelling. You may not like Chuck Austen, (I think that's the whole point of this thread) but he did do some research into angel mythology before writing this arc. He should get some credit for that.

Nephilim is a word that comes from ancient Hebrew (as Angelique said the suffix "im" gives away the masculine pluralization form). It basically refers to a race of giant beings who were fallen angels living on earth during the earliest times in Earth's history as recorded by the bible. You can read about them in Genesis 6:4.

So Nephilim doesn't mean "human mutated into a demon. are somthink like that", it means "mythological race of giant angelic/demonic beings."

And while we're at it, "Cheyaphem" - is an alternative spelling of "Seraphim", one of the choirs of angels. The Seraphim were basically God's attendants and are (according to myth) supposed to look like how we imagine angels looking - with wings and halos etc. So it doesn't mean "mutant who looks like an angel", it means "an angel". You can read more about Seraphim here.

Of course, if Austen had intended to say that all these mythological beings, that is demons and angels, were really just mutants from our past who have since been immortalized in the dogma of our religious doctrine then yes, a Seraphim is a human mutant with an angelic appearance. But that was never clear to me in the story.

I actually had the pleasure of meeting Chuck Austen and we discussed the Draco at length. One of the things we talked about was the many difficulties and disappointments that he had while working on the arc when it came to both the art and editorial process. Obviously there were some issues with the art since it completely changed in the middle of the arc and there were are a number of mistakes (missing tails, Abyss drawn with a nose, etc...). I think an even bigger disappointment though was what the editorial process did to the story. I got the impression that editorial edited what could have been a really amazing revelation about Nightcrawler's past into a big mess that often didn't make sense. I think it's a real shame. I got the impression that if Austen had been allowed to tell his story without these creative hindrances, we would have all loved the Draco as well as we love Darick and Roberto's new series.



Just a note - this is what real research looks like. I looked things up, wrote about them, checked my spelling, and cited my sources. One of the great things about Nightscrawlers is our discussions. Recognising that our members come from different scholastic backgrounds as well as different countries where English might not even be spoken, I am always impressed by the level of intellecualism and thoughtfulness that goes into the discussions here.

I don't think it's too much to ask, ElfofDoom, that you proof read your posts before hitting the reply button. Often they have so many errors in grammar and spelling as to be unintelligable. I recognise that not everyone here is an English scholar, but as I said there is a certain level here that we all strive to attain. I've seen some of your posts where you reach that level, so I know you can do it in all of them.

Thanks
-e

But I have to admit that "Look! A cheyafim!" made me laugh. Without an explanation such as what Madeline L'Engle offered in a Wind in the Door, the mixing of singular and plural seemed rather amusing. But of course, editorial discretion probably determined that nobody wants an explanation of Hebrew angelology and grammar in the middle of an X-Men comic.

And it would have been interesting to hear what Austen would have done differently if he had full control.

Angelique, the island? it's a real place. it's ACTUALLY called that and spelled that way. there are many legends surrounding it, most notably regarding the diary of a woman who was stranded there and the diary describes encounters with monsters. she was probably delusional, drank too much salt water, or whatnot, or was outright lying, but still makes for an interesting story, and was the inspiration for that part. However, it is actually located off the coast of Canada, editorial did not feel that was 'exotic' enough, so they moved it to Bermuda. got an email form Chuck explaining about it somewhere, but it will take a while to dig up.

As for the rest, Em covered it pretty well.... I'm tired of going over this over and over... it's stated in plain english right in there that Azazel is only a mutant. not stated in there, (but intended to be in a followup that never came to pass that dealth with kurts feelings on the matter among other things...) he has a longer than average lifespan, coupled with the fact that the dimension has a slower passage of time. it was intentionally left somewhat ambiguous how much of the Bible was based on mutants, and how much was not. That's left up to a person's own beliefs. They are free to believe that the mutants were taking advantage of an existing religion, or that they were the inspiration for it, or a mix of both. it was intentionally left vague out of respect of beliefs at both ends of the spectrum. but you can't cover Christian concepts without stepping on one denomination or another's particular beliefs, as they all have some differences. if he doesn't tick off the Catholics, he'll tick off the Baptists, you know? in that respect, I think it's probably an area he should have stayed away from, because it was outright impossible to 'get it right' according to everyone.

And Elfoofdoom... what Emily said is true. This is the internet. it is a WRITTEN world. You will judged on language wherever you go. We have nothing else to go on but your words and how you present them. I don't demand perfect grammar and capitalization, and if English is your second language, I'll give you a whole lot of leeway. but it is nice if it's understandable. I know I am especially guilty of not capitalizing things that should be, myself. I also make my fair share of typos and run on sentences. So i can easily look past simple mistakes like that. Everyone does it sometimes. But there are limits.... There are regular posters on the board right now that have Dyslexia, or speak English as a second language, and other things which could mess with their spelling and grammar. But they learn to deal with it, and you would never know unless one of them told you that they were dyslexic, or spoke another language (or whatever). We are mostly adults here, and converse on an adult level, and we mostly expect a basic understanding of English.... If you spell that poorly and you are over 13 (our minimum age limit) I'm sorry, but your school needs to be shut down yesterday. If you're Geordie, well that doesn't excuse the spelling, it's just regional slang. Please, type your replies in Word or other word processor with a spell checker, run it through the checker, then copy and paste. It's hard to know what you're trying to say.

^That would be Ile des Demons, in the St. Laurence River. Different language, different spelling.

Ok I didn't know that these were actual real words. all though hear is two i WOULD like to be translated as best they can. "Tamut ya holer" Yidrizal said that when he killed that guy and I don't kmow what it means, are were its from. and "ich fasse es nicht." Kurt said this as well in two comics. This one drives me crazy because I don't know what it means in english.

Alkuperäinen postittaja elfofdoom
Ok I didn't know that these were actual real words. all though hear is two i WOULD like to be translated as best they can. "Tamut ya holer" Yidrizal said that when he killed that guy and I don't kmow what it means, are were its from. and "ich fasse es nicht." Kurt said this as well in two comics. This one drives me crazy because I don't know what it means in english.

well "ich fasse es nicht" could mean "i dont get it" althought im not sure.
ive only seen word "fasse" in "make it short" as "fasse dich kurtz" .

It does indeed mean "I don't get it." It can mean a number of things, but the one in this case is to understand, conceive, grasp, etc.

thank you for that I know what Kurt saying to Azazel " I don't get it your a mutant form biblical times."

Oh. I just noiticed Yidrizal's pointed ears seemed to dissapear half way though the comic. Yidrizal rocked and now he's dead. Sigh Yidrizal and Azazel were as evil as ecach other and were good friends.

I wouldn't say they were good friends. Ydrazil seemed to lack listening skills, and Azzy seemed quite annoyed with him at least half the time.

Hey, I hated that entire story line, people. It stunk in plain English!!! They should never have done it at all.

I could see potential for the Draco to be much better than it was. Which is why I'm curious to know what Austen would have done differently if he had more control.

it wasn't azazel in 12 Damm I woinder who will bring him back? if I was hired he be back like tha.

one more thing about Draco Yidrizal wings turned form black to white and there were sorter like angles.