The Call of the Dark Side

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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby chicory » Sun Jan 22, 2006 9:23 pm

Has anybody else read Giant Sized #3? Was Kurt *really* going to kill Ororo during their first training session? It sorta looked that way.

I guess I was kind of interested in a nature versus nurture debate. Kurt's one of the gentlest and morally oriented of all the marvel characters. But how much of that is due to his upbringing and how much of it is who he is naturally?

The AoA version of Kurt is almost unrecognizable as is the trapped in Limbo version and the Lightning Squad version. The House of M - raised by Mystique is different as well. Now I'm wondering what would have happened to Nightcrawler if Magneto had picked him up before Xavier did...

[Edited on 17/7/06 by chicory]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby meepdog » Sun Jun 11, 2006 6:27 pm

:huh Hmm... Good question. I honestly don't know. :shrug I'll have to think about that. :poke "Pardon me, Miss, but zoo vhouldn't happen to know ze answer?"
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Mon Jun 12, 2006 2:22 am

Originally posted by chicory
Has anybody else read Giant Sized #3?


I didn't even know it existed!! Must read.

Read. So what is this, anyway? Is it meant to be canon? Because that would fucking rock. Remember back when Kurt was a snarky bitter asshat? Apparently Joss does! Even if it's not canon, just seeing that gives me a case of the thrills.

Anyway, would he have done it? ...Sure. Not sure why he would choose Storm to kill when what I would expect is just for him to hide until it's over. My pet theory is that Joss hates the pairing as much as I do and wanted to screw with the fans. Heh. Yes. Or, possibly, it was just to spotlight the whole snarky bitter asshat thing. Oh. I like that one too.

[Edited on 12-6-2006 by The Drastic Spastic]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Mon Jun 12, 2006 3:19 am

Originally posted by chicory
Kurt's one of the gentlest and morally oriented of all the marvel characters. But how much of that is due to his upbringing and how much of it is who he is naturally?


Well... considering we've seen him as a total dick in other realities, it's safe to say that upbringing has a major effect. And saying he is "moral" when he is actually "religious" burns my ass. Not the same!! Not the same!!!! STOP THAT EVERYONE. :P

Anyway.

It's impossible to know which is "more" important in any context, including this one. They are endlessly acting on each other. You can't separate them. You can point to individual events or genetic markers, but in the big picture... they are equally important.
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby chicory » Mon Jun 12, 2006 4:05 pm

UXN : Giant-Sized #3 Nightcrawler, who is now disenfranchised by Xavier’s dream, is in disbelief that the nice man who saved him would bring them to a place where they must kill the weak to earn their place. He did not escape a mob to die there. Nightcrawler then teleports behind Storm and grabs her. He tells the goddess to forgive him and then wraps his arm around her neck.


It's got to be canon, I mean it was published. And I think Storm was chosen because Nightcrawler thought she'd be the easiest to take out. (She'd already been weakened by her own lightning bolt and then her claustraphobia) However Joss Whedon feels about the pairing, I don't think that was meant to show how much he hates the idea of them being romantically involved.

If Banshee hadn't come in right then, I think he was frightened enough to have killed her, or at least knock her out.

Also, I think Kurt is religious because he's a moral person at heart. It may be what attracts him to the Church.
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby Nandireya » Tue Jun 13, 2006 7:20 am

I don't think he would have killed her...he still had his faith...but he might have messed her up a bit...

And, personally, I love :aoa (the REAL one...the 1995 one...not the crappy, watered down 2005 one)...kickarse bad boy who was still pretty decent inside...deep, deep inside....
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby Confizzle » Tue Jun 13, 2006 2:32 pm

I concur :aoa Kurt is my favorite Kurt out of the lot, followed by :ultimate
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Wed Jun 14, 2006 5:16 am

Originally posted by Nandireya
I don't think he would have killed her...he still had his faith...but he might have messed her up a bit...


This story takes place several years before he was retconned into having faith. Claremont hadn't even TOUCHED him at this point.

Giant-Sized X-Men 3 - :worship

Also... it's a fight to the death! Either you run, you fight, or you die. He's not running... and he said he wasn't going to die... so, yeah, he would have killed her. The character was originally intended to be one hell of a lot darker than he is now. Obviously, Whedon is going off the history for this one.

[Edited on 14-6-2006 by The Drastic Spastic]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby Nandireya » Wed Jun 14, 2006 6:51 am

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
This story takes place several years before he was retconned into having faith. Claremont hadn't even TOUCHED him at this point.


Yes...I realise that...but the story was written 'now', and the faith thing is such an integral part of his character now (does Whedon even know that it wasn't always there)...which may have been why he went after the self-styled goddess...

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
Also... it's a fight to the death! Either you run, you fight, or you die. He's not running... and he said he wasn't going to die... so, yeah, he would have killed her. The character was originally intended to be one hell of a lot darker than he is now. Obviously, Whedon is going off the history for this one.


I really don't think Charles would have allowed a fight to the death...it was just Logan being an arse. And yeah...I know Wein wanted to make Kurt as much a demon inside as out...wonder if he'd still be around if he had been? I know I wouldn't have been as interested in him if he were like that...all angsty and snarly...I like his dichotomy...

[Edited on 14-6-2006 by Nandireya]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby meepdog » Thu Jun 22, 2006 9:33 pm

I agree with Nadireya. For some reason, I just can't see an angry, surly, snarly Kurt (angsty, maybe)... Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm a newbie to the whole X-Men thing, and when I first started liking it he was lareayd all... Religous, Moral, and NICE.
I can see alternate-universe Kurts being like that, but the mainstream one- Not. A. Flippin. Chance.
Anyways, I suppose that if he had been recruited by Magneto first, then he would have been a lot like Rogue, or something.
Or not-wasn't he always a little interested in the Catholic church, even when he was a kid? Would he have gone with Magneto, had Magneto offered him a place in the Borhterhood?
I dunno, and correct me if I'm wrong, anyone.
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Postby Saint Kurt » Fri Jun 23, 2006 2:49 pm

Originally posted by meepdog
For some reason, I just can't see an angry, surly, snarly Kurt (angsty, maybe)... Maybe it's just 'cuz I'm a newbie to the whole X-Men thing, and when I first started liking it he was lareayd all... Religous, Moral, and NICE.



I don't know if this is a correction so much as a little history that I learned here, but Nightcrawler's original character concept was very different when he was first created than it is now. He was NOT meant to be a nice guy. Visit "Cockrum Corner" and dig deep to find some of Dave Cockrum's descriptions of the original character he created. Nightcrawler started out as a bad guy.

Character Sheet

Dave's early character sheet has some humorous notations on it, but generally shows Nightcrawler to be kind of a dark guy.

Early on it was decided though that there were too many angry mutants in the Xmen. Wolverine was angry, Thunderbird was angry, Nightcrawler was angry, Storm was angry. Angry angry angry. Who wants that? I'm not sure where the decision came from (the Marvel editors or the creators themselves) but changes were made. Anger became Wolverine's thing, Thunderbird died, and Nightcrawler was revealed to have a surprisingly lighthearted personality despite his demonic exterior.

And that was it. He was a scary looking guy with a good heart, religion was not a part of his character for YEARS.

The favorite example of Kurt's first exposure of his faith in the comics was a quiet moment with Wolverine while stuck on a Brood ship. Wolverine finds Kurt praying and they have a conversation like this:
W: "I didn't know you believe in God"
N: "Well, I do"
W: "I don't believe in that crap"
N: "You must be very lonely"

And then they go have a beer. (Uncanny XMen #165)

And that's it! The decision to go as far as they did with Nightcrawler as a religious character was done well after the character's creation and even beyond the establishment of a backstory (ie. there is really no room for a Catholic upbringing in Nightcrawler's gypsy/circus character history).

Or not-wasn't he always a little interested in the Catholic church, even when he was a kid?


No. That was something I made up in my story Even Angels have Scars.

-e

{edited to add issue # and fix a link --SK}

[Edited on 23/6/06 by Saint Kurt]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby chicory » Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:38 pm

I'd still like to hear why exactly people like AOA Kurt, the anti-Nightcrawler (I kind of think).

Hmm - Giant Sized #3 was written in 2005, and by now the character has crystallized away from the original conception. I thought Joss read Nightcrawler right by suggesting that he might have been afraid enough, or desperate enough to kill who he had pegged as the weakest member of the team (at that moment). It was a survival thing.

And sure it's nit-picky - but considering the whole nature vs. nurture thing, again - how much of the character's goodness is dependent on the circumstances of how he was treated? Of course he isn't a saint, but the 616 Nightcrawler at least has made a conscious choice to live as heroically as he could.

I just thought it was interesting to imagine how Nightcrawler might have matured as an X-men if Xavier really had been leading the kind of team where a member would have to be murdered at the outset by the others in order to prove that they were all committed to being there.

'Cause it's not like the guy had a lot of choices of places where he could go.
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby stupidusername » Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:57 am

Kinda off the subject, but have you ever noticed just how powerful Kurt is in these alternative universes? Look at Ultimate, messed-up "X3" just about took out the entire team. Look at the movie X2. "brainwashed" Nightcrawler was a heck of lot more powerful than regular Kurt. It's like his nice-guy personality interferes with his abilities. Even Limbo Kurt was pretty powerful. Do you think it is because these "darker" versions of Kurt are more willing to experiment with their abilities or don't care what happens to others as a result? like Phoenix vs. Dark Phoenix? Teleportation, even short range like Kurt's got, is a huge power and yet we are treated to one or two BAMFs an issue. Usually, he is used more as rescue crew or transportation than fight crew. I can think of hundreds of issues where Kurt is rescuing the civilians and Storm, Wolverine, Colossus are all laying the smackdown. But every time they do a alternative universe or future timeline, Kurt or one of his descendants or alternate version of himself kicks serious butt. So is it his awesome personality that gets in his way of super power greatness or is it something else?
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby love_of_bob » Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:06 am

Originally posted by stupidusernameSo is it his awesome personality that gets in his way of super power greatness or is it something else?


I'd say it's his awesome personality, yes. I'm still waiting for him to lose it and open up a bag of serious pain. I'll be there with popcorn.
Seriously. Kurt has assets to get him far. He's smart, he's efficient, observant, a quick thinker and very level-headed and disciplined. Add to that a way with people, which in the wrong hands could develop into a mean manipulative streak (his mom IS Mystique, after all). He's also proud, another trait that should always be kept in check. In Claremont's latest Uncanny run we saw how emotional he is - that can also be a ticking time bomb, especially when combined with a sense of alienation.
Thankfully, his love for others and his faith and ideals keep him nice and cuddly. AoA Kurt was cool in small doses. If I was exposed to him for too long, I'd probably start hating his guts.
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Sat Jan 27, 2007 10:28 pm

Originally posted by chicory
I'd still like to hear why exactly people like AOA Kurt, the anti-Nightcrawler (I kind of think).


Cause he's a badass and it creates... CONFLICT!!!! YAY CONFLICT!!!! THE HEART OF ANY STORY. I find the whole "super duper nice!!!" thing incredibly tiresome because there's no fucking conflict ever. He's just used to bounce other character's conflicts around. He's like an inanimate object for other people to unload on. So boring!

Remember: NO ONE likes EVERYONE. (Yet somehow in some people's views of the "ideal" Kurt... he does! How can you live with yourselves?)

[Edited on 27-1-0707 by The Drastic Spastic]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby love_of_bob » Sun Feb 04, 2007 6:09 am

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic
Originally posted by chicory
I'd still like to hear why exactly people like AOA Kurt, the anti-Nightcrawler (I kind of think).


Cause he's a badass and it creates... CONFLICT!!!! YAY CONFLICT!!!! THE HEART OF ANY STORY. I find the whole "super duper nice!!!" thing incredibly tiresome because there's no fucking conflict ever. He's just used to bounce other character's conflicts around. He's like an inanimate object for other people to unload on. So boring!

Remember: NO ONE likes EVERYONE. (Yet somehow in some people's views of the "ideal" Kurt... he does! How can you live with yourselves?)

[Edited on 27-1-0707 by The Drastic Spastic]


I agree that a 616 Kurt that's only "super duper nice" is badly written. I mean, yes, Kurt is a person who tries very very hard to do the right thing and loves his friends and he's very compassionate - these traits are part of his personality and he has a reason for them. BUT he's also a very emotional person and there's no way I believe that his past hasn't affected him. This can be used to create conflict. Kurt has been shown to have a suspicious streak, usually under Claremont's/Davis' pen. That can be used as well. He's a character with great destructive potential that holds himself in a tight leash and what is needed is a writer who realizes this and takes it and runs with it. In the end, it's all about the writing, not about the character himself. I LONG for a writer like Warren Ellis to pick Kurt up again. He brought out Kurt's edge before, he could do it again.
My fear is just that he would turn Kurt into a 100% badass, though. That would be as dull as the opposite. His traits need to be balanced well, so he doesn't fall into a pre-cut character template. There's way too little subtlety in Marvel writing.
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Tue Feb 06, 2007 4:42 am

I agree; You CAN have too much of a good thing. No one is completely good or bad. It's a judgment call or a perspective thing. Everyone has faults. Like, I strive to be a good person and do the right thing, but sometimes my anger takes control. Plus, my conscience gets in the way of the "right call". All characters should have the battle of what they should do and what they want to do.

[Edited on 21/2/07 by Bamfing_Bob]
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The Call of the Dark Side

Postby Luthor66 » Wed Feb 21, 2007 6:46 pm

The decision with regard to Nightcrawler's personality was to make him more like Dave Cockrum himself. Dave was Catholic and known for his playful sense of humor. I remember reading an interview years ago with Cockrum and Claremont where Chris said as much. He said that Kurt was physically Cockrum's opposite but his personality was made to be reminiscent of his creator. Cockrum's original concept for the character, well before he was designing new X-men, was that he would be the sidekick of a Batman-like vigilante. He would be a true demon, but his powers would be used to help fight the good fight while serving his infernal goals at the same time (by getting evil souls into Hell, or something similar). He was completely revamped - except for his appearance - when he was turned into an X-man.

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Postby Feuerstein » Mon Feb 26, 2007 10:59 pm

This is a really good topic. I read #3 and this is my take on it: Kurt was, what, 18? He'd just escaped death-by-superstitious-mob, and now he's stuck with all these crazy mutants, each of whom have their own nutso background and not all of whom are overly friendly. And suddenly everyone is fighting, and Kurt isn't quite interested in dying. He's overwhelmed, plus a part of him wants to prove himself since Wolverine and Sunfire are picking on him. We know Kurt has very, very strong opinions on killing - more than once it's gotten him into a jam that someone else has had to pull him out of at their own risk because of his no-killing philosophy. I would think that, had the battle progressed, he would not have ended up killing Ororo (c'mon, it's not like he could win against her anyway), and I doubt he had any focused intent to kill her. He was going along with the crowd - fear was the greatest motivation.

I disagree with what some people are saying about Kurt's nicey-nice side; though it's absolutely true that bad-assness creates conflict and nobody likes a goody-two-shoes, I don't think it's required for Kurt to become vicious-bloodthirsty-warmonger type for that to happen. 616 already has enough of those characters to start ten world wars. Kurt's pacificism is, in my opinion, refreshing when contrasted with other characters - in effect, he is a sidekick-type character, and there's no shame in that. Kurt has many flaws the writers could work with if they bothered: as someone already mentioned, his suspiciousness, and he can also be judgmental, plus he's insecure, not known for exceptional leadership skills (Austen grazed over this a few times and I wish it could have been expanded more), his passiveness which sometimes prevents him from making tough calls, and yes, that inner anger that's got to be there, no matter how good-natured he is, as a result of the prejudice towards him. He doesn't need to be super-angsty to be interesting - it is his non-angstyness that I like best about him. I get so sick of how certain characters are always throwing pity-parties.

But if angst is what you like, Ultimate gives us a grand amount of that. If you've seen the Marvel previews for May, you've got an idea what's in store for Ultimate Kurt. :shifty I enjoy the exploration of Kurt's darker side in Ultimate. It's a new perspective, a new path Kurt could have taken. But it doesn't need to be in 616 Kurt too. I like him the way he is, and I know the writers could come up with a great plot for him that doesn't involve him losing too many of his nicety-nice qualities. Wolverine once said that most of the X-men are hard cases, but maybe not Kurt. I think it's important to have a character like Kurt to balance out the harshness of the others; but again, that's all my opinion.
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