Should Kurt leave the X-men?

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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby love_of_bob » Sat Mar 03, 2007 6:16 pm

I know the X-men is Kurt's family, but it seems that among them, he always ends up forced into a supporting role. I'm starting to wonder if the only way Kurt can truly develop is by heading out on his own, at least for a while.
It's illustrative how most of Kurt's development happened in Excalibur and how, as soon as he came back, he went back to being a supporting character. Storywise, most authors will take the easy route and spin stories around characters with more offensive powers and who are more confident and prone to violence.
Canon-wise, it seems that Kurt sees himself as lower in rank than people like Storm, Logan and Cyclops, even though he has proven himself to be just as capable and, in many instances, a lot wiser.
I think Kurt's too used to reacting to the people around him. I think he needs to find himself again and regain that confidence he had at the end of Excalibur. He seems so...humbled and broken lately. But I just can't see that changing while he's still with the X-men. His place is carved out.
You can't really grow up until you've left your family.

I would like to see a really dark series with Kurt on his own. I want him put through hell so he can come out stronger in the end. I'm not saying I want him to end up angsty, more like the other way around. His strength has always been to be a light in the dark, that ability should be forged and strengthened by a trial of fire of sorts.


Agree? Disagree?
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sat Mar 03, 2007 11:16 pm

I think Kurt should still stay affiliated with the X-Men but he should pursue the lone hero route.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Sun Mar 04, 2007 1:52 am

I agree with you in part - certainly that his role has been considerably reduced since Excalibur. He's almost always overlooked, and when he does get a larger part it's usually just to use the same traits over and over - either his connection with Amanda (so the writers can have a Limbo plot) or his religion (so the writers can use the shock factor). Even in these cases, he's usurped by other characters. During Holy War and Draco, characters like Logan, Alex, and Bobby accomplished more and had better lines than him, and nothing Kurt did during these instances was really notable because nothing was ever resolved. More recently, he's been upstaged by Bishop, Rachel, Storm and Betsy. Heck, even in his own series characters like Amanda, Logan and Storm couldn't keep out of the spotlight. I love all these characters to death, but I'd like our fuzzy elf to be allowed to shine once in a while! Honestly, I don't think most writers know what to do with Kurt. He's portrayed so many different ways. Nobody really knows what he's thinking since it seems to change with every new writer.

However, I'd also say that part of Kurt's charm for me, at least, is that he's a supporting character. Not that I support him being in minor roles, but Kurt's attitude towards others has always been one of equality and fairness. He prefers diplomacy to fighting and, in a bad situation, would probably take the democratic route of taking a vote among his team members to make a decision instead of making it himself. In other words, Kurt has to be surrounded by other characters because it is when he's dealing with his friends that his best attributes stand out. As you said, he does tend to step back and let others take the lead. But if he went off on his own "lone ranger" adventure, I think the story would be missing something important - his friendship with the others, which makes up a huge part of his character. Am I making any sense? In sum, he should stay with the X-men, but the writers need to define him and give him a role to define him to the fans.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby tsukechick » Sun Mar 04, 2007 10:05 am

I don't think he should leave the X-Men, because if he did I'm worried that he'd just disappear for a while - there are already so many X-titles out, and what would he be doing if he did go? Though given what's happened in the recent Excalibur issues (won't name it for fear of being sent to the Naughty Corner for spoiling) I could see him scooting off to spend time with TJ.

It is odd that Kurt doesn't get the sort of...oh respect would be the word I think, as a character from his writers. He flat-out led the X-Men several times, he's one of the original group, he's got strong and almost always positive relationships with just about every other character. He gained huge popularity with X2 and is, as far as I've understood it, the most popular character in Evo. And yet he doesn't get a lot of plot lines, and writers just don't seem to know what to do with him. So what's the deal?

There's plenty of plot fodder about for people to work with for him - he's got the friggin SOUL SWORD in him still, doesn't he? If they wanted dramatic tension, they could have him work with Mystique and her team. They could (shock and horror) actually give him a love interest again. So far, he's just Easygoing Dependable Friend Guy. Often overlooked in action-driven stories, but very useful if you take the time to actually develop interpersonal relationships. It's an issue I have with a lot of the writing that goes on with Marvel these days.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Sun Mar 04, 2007 8:55 pm

Amen, Tsukechick! I've been keeping up with NE too, so I know exactly what you mean. ;) I can't wait for more adorable Kurt-and-TJ moments. Their relationship is so much cuter than Scott-and-Rachel. (Off topic: I'd love for Rachel and TJ to get together for a heart-to-heart. They're so much alike - time-and-dimensionally-displaced teenage girls with super-powerful, occasionally insane mothers and fathers now close to their same age. Plus, I have a feeling we haven't glimpsed the full extent of TJ's powers yet.)

Kurt really was popular following X2, though I would argue that Rogue was more popular than him in Evo. He was definitely one of the most popular, if not tied with Rogue. But to be fair, they didn't really have much competition. For a short time, I think the writers understood that Kurt was popular, and I think that's how his solo series was inspired even though it was years later. On another forum, the general consensus was that of the four solo series going on at the time (Nightcrawler, Gambit, Rogue, and Jubilee, I believe), Nightcrawler was the best, or tied with Gambit, and its readers were upset when it was finally cancelled. And just take a look at the Marvel merchandise. After Wolverine, who gets the most exposure? I would argue that it is Nighty.

I stick by what I said earlier - the writers just don't know what to do with him. And I've been wondering about the Soul Sword business too. I'm sure they can't continue to simply deny its presence, especially considering what's happening in New Mutants. (Though I've heard no rumors of Kurt showing up there - I read an interview about what's coming next in Uncanny and it doesn't look like he'll have the time to run off with them.) But when they finally do deal with the issue, I wouldn't be surprised if all that happens is he turns the Soul Sword over to Kitty or Amanda and they lock it away for good somewhere, whilst Kurt stands around looking blue and cute but not doing anything impressive...

And as I've said before, I really like Easygoing-Dependable-Friend Guy :D but conflict is a MUST! You're absolutely right about his needing a plot that's less action, more character-development to show off his better qualities. It may be that the writers don't think it would interes the largely-male fan club, but there have been sentimental and simply character-driven plots before that haven't flopped. And they could still throw in a Skrull or two to provide that much needed butt-kicking element. But gentlemen, at least for the sake of your romantic female readers, couldn't we have a few moments that don't involve someone's head getting ripped off once in a while?
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby tsukechick » Mon Mar 05, 2007 6:57 pm

Ok, confession time: at first I rather hated TJ. I took one look at her and every Mary-Sue bell in my brain started clanging. She's grown on me since, but I still don't think she's all that (though I will take that bag of chips, if you're not gonna eat 'em). ;)

But anyway! With the whole soulsword thing, I hope they don't give it to either Amanda or Kitty. Either let Kurt keep it for a bit and, oh I dunno, USE it or something; or give it back to Ilyana. Between TJ and the soulsword, if Kurt doesn't stay with the X-Men I think an argument could be made for him to go back to Captain Britain's team. The sword has been compared to excalibur itself in many ways and why not develop a story reason for Kurt to have it? Excalibur is as good a place for that as any, if not better because God knows everything that happens with the X-Men has to be about Phoenix or Wolverine or Xavier or one of the other "alpha" characters. Though I don't know how the dynamic between he and Brian would be these days, since they always had a lot of tension, both over Meggan and Brian's headstrong ways. I adored re-reading Excalibur in tpb form - when Kurt first met Brian he tossed his drunk hide into the ocean, saying that it would either sober him up or kill him and Kurt didn't care either way! Not always so easygoing, eh?

Only tangentally related, re merchandise: Why don't they make a bamf plushie? Eh? Eh? Does ANYONE know why they don't make a bamf plushie?! I would friggin KILL over here! I've wanted one since they first proposed the idea!
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby love_of_bob » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:53 pm

Originally posted by tsukechickBut anyway! With the whole soulsword thing, I hope they don't give it to either Amanda or Kitty. Either let Kurt keep it for a bit and, oh I dunno, USE it or something; or give it back to Ilyana. Between TJ and the soulsword, if Kurt doesn't stay with the X-Men I think an argument could be made for him to go back to Captain Britain's team. The sword has been compared to excalibur itself in many ways and why not develop a story reason for Kurt to have it? Excalibur is as good a place for that as any, if not better because God knows everything that happens with the X-Men has to be about Phoenix or Wolverine or Xavier or one of the other "alpha" characters.


I'm not a big fan of the Soulsword with Kurt, frankly, mainly because I don't see it as being really his. It's supposed to be a physical manifestation of Illyana's powers or something such and I think it fits better with her, or, in her absence, Amanda.
Kurt should definitely have swords, though, and note the plural. Three swords.

Though I don't know how the dynamic between he and Brian would be these days, since they always had a lot of tension, both over Meggan and Brian's headstrong ways.


Maybe he and Brian would get along better now that Meggan isn't around? I wouldn't want Kurt with New Excalibur, though. I prefer him in one of the main X-titles, but I still wonder if the guy doesn't need to recharge his batteries on his own for a while.

I adored re-reading Excalibur in tpb form - when Kurt first met Brian he tossed his drunk hide into the ocean, saying that it would either sober him up or kill him and Kurt didn't care either way! Not always so easygoing, eh?


That's one of my favorite scenes! I want to see more of Kurt's harder side (no sexual innuendo intended). The man's more than just huggable.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Mon Mar 05, 2007 7:53 pm

When I first heard of Kurt having a daughter, my first fear was "Oh man, they're going to replace him the way they did Jean with Rachel, 'cept it'll be worse 'cause there's no WAY Kurt's going to return from the dead every other year!" But so far that hasn't happened, and I generally like TJ - though I must admit, I like her better the way I read her in fanfiction and the way I interpret her in my own head than the way the writers use her. But for the most part I've enjoyed her and would really like to see more of her - so long as Kurt was there also. :blend

I really hope Kurt does a run in New Excalibur. What you say makes sense - plus they could avoid Brian taking over as the "alpha" on the basis that nobody likes him. :shifty Okaaaay, that may not be true, but it certainly is for me. And he lost something close to the end of Excalibur, and it's only gotten worse since Meggan's disappearance/death/whatever. I'd personally like to see them together again - last time Brian showed he still nurses a grudge (but Meggan did veritably throw herself at Kurt XD ) so that's conflict. But I have a feeling they'd put all that behind them fast. Besides all that, the old Excalibur members should make a visit to the new gang, that's just how it's done.

I WANT ONE TOO!!! :dance I've seen customs, but they're so expensive. *siiiigh* Boys don't by plushies is the problem. I would cuddle it and kiss it and sing it to sleep...
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby tsukechick » Mon Mar 05, 2007 8:31 pm

Originally posted by Feuerstein
I really hope Kurt does a run in New Excalibur. What you say makes sense - plus they could avoid Brian taking over as the "alpha" on the basis that nobody likes him. :shifty Okaaaay, that may not be true, but it certainly is for me. And he lost something close to the end of Excalibur, and it's only gotten worse since Meggan's disappearance/death/whatever. I'd personally like to see them together again - last time Brian showed he still nurses a grudge (but Meggan did veritably throw herself at Kurt XD ) so that's conflict. But I have a feeling they'd put all that behind them fast. Besides all that, the old Excalibur members should make a visit to the new gang, that's just how it's done.


That's because Kurt is not an emotional nematode, unlike drunk, neglectful, CHEATING Brian. Ugh. Girl lost out BIG time. I missed her death/disappearance. Anyone know what happened?

And they do so have Marvel plushies! Star-Wars is mostly boys-only and we still get little ewok toys! GIVE US A BAMF! GIVE US A BAMF! *marches on Washington*
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Mon Mar 05, 2007 10:11 pm

She basically sacrified herself during M-Day's effects on Otherworld and its crazy messed up nonsense, but I don't think anyone really believes she's dead. Nematode - good word. He was an oversized leech! Meggan almost made the right choice, but alas, what blondness and sculpted musculature can do to a girl...

........ OMG... that Wolverine doll is teh scariness!!! Ooh, I want a Bamf one so bad! (I wouldn't mind an Ewok either!) I suggest we picket outside Marvel HQ... wherever the heck that is.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby tsukechick » Mon Mar 05, 2007 11:20 pm

Eh, yeah, that sounds like Meggan. I wonder how long they'll let Storm stay married. Characters seem to lose all interest for Marvel writers once they tie the knot. :hrumph

Yyyeah. Looking at them now, I'm not that upset that there isn't a plush Kurt. >__> The plushie Spiderman is TOTALLY CUTE though. I'll picket for a hug-and-giggle bamf doll! (Though...remembering those naughty Bamfs in the comic - that'd be more than a little wrong!)
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby love_of_bob » Tue Mar 06, 2007 4:59 am

Originally posted by tsukechick
And they do so have Marvel plushies! Star-Wars is mostly boys-only and we still get little ewok toys! GIVE US A BAMF! GIVE US A BAMF! *marches on Washington*


*clicks link*

AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!! *cries*
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:20 am

Much agreed!! I need a plushie of Bamf! Would pay mega bucks for one.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Jolinare » Wed Mar 14, 2007 8:26 pm

well, kurt could go on strike until marvel give him a bigger role.:smirk

he does quite a bit in Essential, but gosh darn it, i want a character story arch!

i think those plushies are horrible, if they made one of crawler it wouldn't do him the slightest justice.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Wed Mar 14, 2007 10:47 pm

Yeah, I want it perfect!!!
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Thu Mar 15, 2007 1:54 am

Aww, Joli, the Spidey one is cute though! :bounce

By Essential, you mean the collections of early Uncanny comics? I love those best too. I also sort of like that they're in black and white rather than color, especially since the color back then was half-rate in comparison. Nighty and Wolvie had so much fun in those goold ol' days.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby rain360 » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:11 am

I think that Kurt should take a little break from the X-men,
ya know,
have the spotlight for a bit
;)

I don't belive that he gets the PR he sometimes deserves
ya know?
"Don't walk in my footsteps. I walk into walls."
"Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get suked into jet engines."
"A computer beat me at chess once, but it was no match at me in kickboxing..."

FYI- I DID NOT MAKE THESE UP. THESE QUOTES ARE NOT MINE.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:09 am

Completely! He's treated like a second rate character. Makes me frustrated...
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby rain360 » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:33 am

Originally posted by Bamfing_Bob
Completely! He's treated like a second rate character. Makes me frustrated...


this is why I like Nightscrawlers,
we can go on and on about Kurt as much as we want!
Here, he isn't a side character.
:)
"Don't walk in my footsteps. I walk into walls."
"Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get suked into jet engines."
"A computer beat me at chess once, but it was no match at me in kickboxing..."

FYI- I DID NOT MAKE THESE UP. THESE QUOTES ARE NOT MINE.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Daycrawler » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:14 am

Originally posted by rain360
Originally posted by Bamfing_Bob
Completely! He's treated like a second rate character. Makes me frustrated...


this is why I like Nightscrawlers,
we can go on and on about Kurt as much as we want!
Here, he isn't a side character.
:)
yes, I :love this place too. :cry Here I can talk and talk about Kurt without getting weird stares. (altough I do have to admit the stares are kinda fun :LOL)
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:26 am

What? But i sn't Kurt the main character? You cant be serious! :shocked

I mean, he's even got his own song.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Bamfing_Bob » Mon Apr 02, 2007 5:09 am

Several in fact. I've never heard the song about Wolverine or Cyclops.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby rain360 » Thu Apr 26, 2007 2:23 am

There's a song by Weezer that directly refers to him,
and kitty,
it's more like a line...
But a line non the less!
:tail

I think the song is called-
'In the Garage'
"Don't walk in my footsteps. I walk into walls."
"Whoever said nothing is impossible never tried slamming a revolving door."
"Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get suked into jet engines."
"A computer beat me at chess once, but it was no match at me in kickboxing..."

FYI- I DID NOT MAKE THESE UP. THESE QUOTES ARE NOT MINE.
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Slarti » Thu Apr 26, 2007 8:49 am

I've got the Dungeon Master's Guide.
I've got a 12-sided die.
I've got Kitty Pryde
And Nightcrawler too
Waiting there for me.
Yes I do, I do.


;)
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Should Kurt leave the X-men?

Postby Feuerstein » Fri Apr 27, 2007 1:10 am

THAT IS SO CUTE. I want.
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