Nightcrawler's stats on Marvel.com

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Nightcrawler's stats on Marvel.com

Postby Feuerstein » Fri Jun 29, 2007 3:20 am

Frankly, without knowing what the criteria was for how the characters were rated, these rankings are useless. But I thought I'd post them for anyone who's interested in chatting about them.

Six abilities per character were ranked a level from 1 to 7, 1 being lowest, 7 being highest. Nightcrawler's ranking:

Intelligence: 3
Strength: 2
Speed: 7
Durability: 2
Energy projection: 1
Fighting skills: 5

I have some problems with these rankings. First off, a 3 in intelligence puts him below Storm (5) and Angel (4). I can understand the former, but since when is Angel Mr. Genius? And if you've ever been to the "Respect the Elf" site, you may agree with me that his strength level should be a little higher than 2!

It's also interesting to note how different the fan ratings were in comparison to the official ratings. In pretty much every circumstance, the fans were more generous with dealing out points. But in strength, durability, and energy projection, there were 2 or more point differences between official and fan ratings. Most of that I think is the fan genorsity, but it could also be that most fans didn't understand what "energy projection" means. (I don't; do you?) Kurt had 1 in that department, but the fans gave him a 4. That's a pretty big difference.
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Postby JSherlock » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:56 am

Well, that's the official stats...fans know better:

Intelligence: 4
Strength: 4
Speed: 6
Durability: 4
Energy Projection: 4
Fighting Skills: 6

All of which favour a better Nightcrawler!
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Postby Angelique » Fri Jun 29, 2007 6:44 am

I always understood energy projection to mean zapping stuff.
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Postby love_of_bob » Fri Jun 29, 2007 8:46 am

Those stats have always been screwed up, because writers hardly follow them slavishly when writing the stories. Only 3 in Intelligence?? 2 in Strength?? Puh-lease.
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Postby Freak » Fri Jun 29, 2007 11:38 am

Hmmmm...I wonder whether those guys know that Kurt rebuild Cerebro on Muir Island. Not to mentione that he knows some medical stuff too. Oh, and when was the last time you saw Storm reading a book in the comics?

Ergo: Kurt is smart, probably smarter than Ro :D
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Fri Jun 29, 2007 12:59 pm

Originally posted by Feuerstein
Six abilities per character were ranked a level from 1 to 7, 1 being lowest, 7 being highest. Nightcrawler's ranking:

Speed: 7


Yeah, I know we're supposed to talk about how he's been wronged by low ratings but he's maxed out for speed? How fast is Quicksilver then?

2 is a fair rate for strength. They are comparing him to superheros. He's not that super, really.
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Postby Feuerstein » Fri Jun 29, 2007 5:14 pm

I think they're counting his teleportation as speed, which doesn't really make sense to me, since it's not a traditional form of speed. But since he can get places in the blink of an eye, I guess it makes sense they would view it as ultimate speed.

As for strength, in other places he's listed as having "average strength of an athlete who engages in regular strenuous exercise" or yadayadayada. I'm not sure who the strongest person in MU is (would it be the Hulk?), but in comparison with the Hulk, yeah I can see our Nighty being a 2.
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Postby love_of_bob » Fri Jun 29, 2007 7:50 pm

Yeah, the strength rating, I can handle, but the intelligence one? Nope. He should be at least 4, especially considering how diverse his intelligence is. Social, technical, tactical, physical and so on.

Energy projection, I assume, refers mostly to those who have offensive, energy-based powers, like Cyclops, Havok, Gambit etc.
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Sat Jun 30, 2007 1:35 am

Originally posted by Feuerstein
I think they're counting his teleportation as speed, which doesn't really make sense to me, since it's not a traditional form of speed. But since he can get places in the blink of an eye, I guess it makes sense they would view it as ultimate speed.


This and the energy projection just don't make sense to me. You only need stats like that if you're going to be playing D&D anyway.
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Postby Trigger » Sat Jun 30, 2007 7:05 pm

The only problem I have with those stats is the intellingence, other than that I think they are pretty acurate.
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Postby Bamfing_Bob » Sun Jul 01, 2007 8:05 pm

My personal stats for Nightcrawler. (And by the way, Energy Projection is like firebolts and hexes, not teleportation.

Intelligence: 3 (maybe 4. Smart, but no genius)
Strength: 3 (Really strong, but not 'super-strong')
Durability: 3 (Takes a hit pretty well)
Speed: 5 (Teleport three miles in one second. That comes out to 10,800 miles an hour or faster)
Energy projection: 1 (None)
Fighting skills: 5 (Hand-to-hand and fencing aided by amazing reflexes)
Agility: 7 (maybe 6... I added this one. One of the most agile heroes I've ever seen)

Feel free to disagree....
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Postby Angelique » Sun Jul 01, 2007 9:44 pm

I'd give him a 4 on intelligence. Other than that, I agree.
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Postby Trigger » Sun Jul 01, 2007 10:21 pm

I agree with Angelique. Looks good other than intellingence. I'd also give him a four.

:offtopicHas anyone else been having issues with Marvel's site? It seems like it's been on the fritz, though it could just be my computer.
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Postby Feuerstein » Mon Jul 02, 2007 12:12 am

Another thing I've noticed: every member of the original 5 except Jean has an intelligence level of 4 or higher. I think they're really trying to hype that group. It makes sense: Angel's shown up again, Iceman's gonna be important later this year I hear, Cyclops is the X-men's leader, and Beast is a genius. I wish we could know what criteria had to be met to gain points.

also: I just checked, Trigger, it's working fine for me.
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Postby love_of_bob » Mon Jul 02, 2007 3:56 am

Originally posted by Feuerstein
Another thing I've noticed: every member of the original 5 except Jean has an intelligence level of 4 or higher. I think they're really trying to hype that group. It makes sense: Angel's shown up again, Iceman's gonna be important later this year I hear, Cyclops is the X-men's leader, and Beast is a genius. I wish we could know what criteria had to be met to gain points.

also: I just checked, Trigger, it's working fine for me.


Iceman has a higher intelligence level than Kurt???
OK, clearly hype has more to do with this than objective reasoning.
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Postby Feuerstein » Mon Jul 02, 2007 4:39 am

EDIT: I don't know why I thought Angel was level 4 in intelligence - either they changed the stats or, more likely, I misread. He has a 3. Sorry gang.

Yep. Iceman's really stacked up in all areas. With the intelligence thing, he's always been impulsive and reckless, but in recent years he's been learning a LOT more about his powers. You'd have to be smart and creative to do the things he does with ice. So I'm thinking I was wrong with my first analysis of these "stats" - maybe the stats completely exclude personality. In that case, I can see Iceman being "smarter" than Kurt because Kurt only has a few ways he can manipulate his teleportation, whereas Bobby's abilities are ever-growing. D'you think?
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:22 am

Originally posted by love_of_bob
Iceman has a higher intelligence level than Kurt???
OK, clearly hype has more to do with this than objective reasoning.


Iceman has a degree in Accounting. Nightcrawler might have a GED. That's pretty objective right there. I think they are going on traditional intelligence not "emotional intelligence" or anything like that.

And, as someone pointed out last time this came up, he's being compared to super geniuses here. It's the same as super strength vs very very fit. He's smart enough for me (ahaha he'd be so proud I'm sure) but he's up against all kinds of scientists and super brains. Like Spider-Man, who invented and built things like webshooters as a high school student out of junk he found in his aunt's basement. (And apparently a ton of other crazy stuff I don't know about because I don't read Spider-Man. Hulk de-powering machine, or something?) Reed Richards, Beast, Dr Doom, are all going to be filling the top of this chart.
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Postby Angelique » Tue Jul 03, 2007 3:44 pm

Degrees are one thing. What does Bobby do with his degree in accounting?

Meanwhile, Kurt knows a few languages, at the very least, German, English, Latin, and probably Romany. He's been a team leader and a medic. He did apparently spend some time in a Catholic seminary. Let's put aside just how terribly handled all that was for a second. That, at least in the real world, is very academically rigorous and therefore not for the faint of heart or weak of mind. And if I remember correctly, he's almost up there with Beast when it comes to taste in "light reading."

I'm not saying Iceman is stupid, his involvement with Mystique notwithstanding. However, I think saying he's smarter than Kurt based on what he can do with ice and the fact that he has a degree does not exactly fly. There are more variables when it comes to intelligence than that.

Although if the stats are based on how characters are being written at the moment, I'm sure they're more accurate. I'm not exactly happy about how Brubaker's writing Kurt.
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Postby Slarti » Tue Jul 03, 2007 4:43 pm

This, of course, is all theoretical defense of the fictional intelligence of our favorite fictional character. For all of them, they're just as smart as the writer at the time wants to make them, whether that writer wants to take the history of the character into account, and the needs of the immediate story.

Kurt and Bobby are probably just as smart as each other, they just have different kinds of learning and different skills and apply them in different ways. An accounting degree or a non-traditional education with the circus, or the seminary -- whatever. Real people have learned and earned their skills in different ways too and rarely in real life to we wear our 'intelligence scores.' Meh.

Of course, all that said, the one I do wonder about is Warren set that low. He's the head of a multi-national corporation, even if he did inherit it.

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Postby Feuerstein » Tue Jul 03, 2007 9:39 pm

Hear hear, Slarti!
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:37 pm

Originally posted by Slarti
Of course, all that said, the one I do wonder about is Warren set that low. He's the head of a multi-national corporation, even if he did inherit it.


I thought of that too. He always seemed to be doing okay with that.

Kurt was never actually in the seminary, he was brainwashed. (Judging from Angelique's critique of his priest costume, they didn't do a very good job of getting accurate info into his head either.) I'm veeery skeptical of the sort of education he would have gotten with Margali. Non-traditional is one thing, but a gypsy circus? He's lucky he can even read. :P
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Postby love_of_bob » Tue Jul 03, 2007 10:46 pm

Originally posted by Angelique
Degrees are one thing. What does Bobby do with his degree in accounting?

Meanwhile, Kurt knows a few languages, at the very least, German, English, Latin, and probably Romany. He's been a team leader and a medic. He did apparently spend some time in a Catholic seminary. Let's put aside just how terribly handled all that was for a second. That, at least in the real world, is very academically rigorous and therefore not for the faint of heart or weak of mind. And if I remember correctly, he's almost up there with Beast when it comes to taste in "light reading."

I'm not saying Iceman is stupid, his involvement with Mystique notwithstanding. However, I think saying he's smarter than Kurt based on what he can do with ice and the fact that he has a degree does not exactly fly. There are more variables when it comes to intelligence than that.

Although if the stats are based on how characters are being written at the moment, I'm sure they're more accurate. I'm not exactly happy about how Brubaker's writing Kurt.


I agree 100%. Kurt's pretty much always been depicted as intelligent, while Iceman hasn't. There is of course the matter of different kinds of intelligence, but even taking that into account, Kurt should rate pretty high.
I remember a scene where Kurt and Kitty were held hostage by some kind of alien ship (I assume Sh'iar) and Kurt set about building a portable version of an outfit-making device they had in their room.

I remember the fifth Uncanny annual where he, in the midst of battle, figured out how to destroy a dimensional portal based on a couple pieces of information he had gotten about it earlier.

His Excalibur stint holds too many examples of him having a varied, high intelligence for me to count them all. I doubt Iceman would have done as good a job, degree in accounting or not.
Same with his time with the X-men after that. However you look upon intelligence (unless you only count academical achievements), Kurt rating lower than Iceman is ridiculous. And as for ability to wield his mutant power, Kurt's powers have barely been explored by the writers. For all we know at this point, he's using them as much as he possibly can without resorting to maiming or killing.

He might be compared to super geniuses, but level 4 is not super genius. It's just a level suitable for someone who keeps a good head with him at all times.
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Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:05 pm

Bobby is always presented as immature, but I've never thought he was stupid. He was afraid to explore his powers (Emma Frost took over his mind at some point and it turned out he was way more powerful than anyone had thought) but that doesn't make him stupid. A degree doesn't make him smart, but if you're the intern going over basic character information (probably Wikipedia lols), you're going to look at that and think, yeah, this guy is fairly smart. Or maybe he's being written as smart right now. I don't know, is he even in a title right now?

All the leadership stuff... Rogue is leading the X-Men now and I've always thought she was dumb as a bag of hammers.
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Postby Angelique » Tue Jul 03, 2007 11:16 pm

Originally posted by The Drastic Spastic Or maybe he's being written as smart right now. I don't know, is he even in a title right now?

All the leadership stuff... Rogue is leading the X-Men now and I've always thought she was dumb as a bag of hammers.


Bobby is on Rogue's team.

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Postby Feuerstein » Wed Jul 04, 2007 1:45 am

I never thought Rogue was stupid. Not a super-genius, but she took to the role of leading the X-men after the six-month gap like a duck to water. For a time she was nothing more than Mystique's lackey, but she's also younger than most of the other X-men (of the time) and struggling with her power. After that, she really grew into herself. But when I think of Rogue stories, generally they include a lot of mind-swiping and butt-kicking, and not that much intellectual work.

And for the record, Rogue does have a 4 in intelligence. Making Kurt the only team leader who doesn't, including New Excalibur and X-factor.

I'm thinking what others have said - that these rates are based solely on how the characters are currently being written - has to be right, because otherwise some of these stats really don't make sense.

@Spaz: I thought the same about Kurt's upbringing in a circus. His past being so muddled, it's hard to know what kind of schooling he could possibly have had. (As for the multiple language thing, don't forget he was telepathically taught English by Xavier.) But he's repeatedly quoted Shakespeare and has been shown reading/referencing rather high-brow books in the past. As Bob said, he's a medic and a maintenance man. He knows how to fly a plane. He once "puzzled out" the controls of Magneto's base/thingy. And Marvel.com also says he has taken "college-level courses" at Xavier's, which may not equal a degree, but does show some educational background.
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