If You Could Change Kurt...

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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Angelique » Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:11 am

Hey, to each their own. But I get this age question all the time, especially from other writers. "So this is for a comic book? Isn't this a bit more mature? Oh, it's NOT for kids?! Do adults even buy comics?"
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Jeremus » Thu Feb 04, 2010 7:01 pm

Karl wrote: I'm afraid I still prefer to picture him as he was in the movie though.


IMO, Alan Cumming did a great job in the movie with the storyline used and the script that he was given. I'm not even sure he knew too much about Nightcrawler when he agreed to the part. But whether or not people liked the movie, Cummings character made a lot of new people want to find out more about Nightcrawler and created a lot of new die-hard Nightcrawler fans.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Salinea » Fri Oct 22, 2010 7:24 pm

Jeremus wrote:
Karl wrote: I'm afraid I still prefer to picture him as he was in the movie though.


IMO, Alan Cumming did a great job in the movie with the storyline used and the script that he was given. I'm not even sure he knew too much about Nightcrawler when he agreed to the part. But whether or not people liked the movie, Cummings character made a lot of new people want to find out more about Nightcrawler and created a lot of new die-hard Nightcrawler fans.


Ironically that's the way it is for many many actors that end up playing superhero's. They have no clue who the character is and sometimes don't even bother to research. They just wait to see what the acting coach will tell them. "So you look like a demon and have animalistic features? Walk like a monkey. Wait. The character is a former acrobat in a circus that should have good posture and a more confidant gait? Well they still had monkeys in the circus and they're acrobatic...monkey gait it is.

As much as I appreciate Alan Cumming doing the best with what he was given, he was definitely a poor casting choice, disregarding the bad makeup. Anyone see Snatch? Brad Pitt played a lean Rom fighter, which, if the movie had been available to him at his age then, I think he'd be perfect. But honestly that was one of the biggest goofs for X2 that I couldn't stand. Nightcrawler is supposed to be a circus acrobat and if his jumping around, attacking the president is any testament to his strength/agility he should have a more defined musculature (sorry Alan, no mushy tummy for me). Like many have said before, he needs a stronger jaw line, a better German accent, loose the damned, overly white so they look really really fake shark teeth, give him yellow eyes all throughout (CG to glow), and make his hair longer.

If I wasn't so fail at photomanip, I'd go scouring the internets and just make my fave candidates into Kurt Wagner's and parade them in a fashion show here :p Particularily Til Schweiger...ooooh that man is gorgeous. http://www.imdb.com/media/rm2563938816/nm0001709
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Karl » Fri Oct 22, 2010 8:18 pm

As one of the folks who got into Nightcrawler fandom because of seeing X-2 and Alan's version of Nightcrawler, all I can say is that he wasn't perfect, but he was pretty damn good. First off, his accent isn't bad. I've studied German and German accents, and it sounded like some of the recordings of "real" Germans speaking English. The German accent is part of what drew me in, since I'm from a German background. Second, according to interviews with Alan, he did read a lot of the comics in order to learn what the character was like.
As for his appearance, his face at least has an up and down shape, as Kurt is usually drawn, even if it's not a perfect match. As for the length of his hair, it varies in the comics. At least he wasn't bald with a goatee, as some issues had him being!
As an actor, the make up isn't really his choice to make. That being said, I agree that I could do without the extravagant teeth. Simple fangs would have been fine. I'd have liked his eyes to glow, instead of just being gold in color. I also agree that, while I like Alan's body, he does not have the upper body musculature that a trapeze artist would need. They'd have done way better not to have any scenes where he was without a shirt. I didn't think he moved funny, despite the extra sequence showing him being taught to walk as if he had a tail. Realistically, a tail would affect your balance to an extent. Monkeys don't walk straight upright most of the time. BTW, I could also have done without the striped pants, but I did like his coat.
The biggest difference that I see in the movie is the scars they added, but never explained in any detail how or why he has them. You shouldn't add such a strange thing to a character without some reason to do so. Someone who carves himself up like that has issues, but he's presented as calm, gentle, and very sane in most ways. So why all the designs? That's what I'd really like to know, but no one ever asks that question in an interview. They showed us how the makeup was done, sure, but that tells us nothing about why it was done. Fanfiction has provided all sorts of possible explanations and I have my own theory about them, but there's nothing official that I've ever seen or read.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Angelique » Sat Oct 23, 2010 2:46 am

I was going to say that, regarding the accent, Alan Cumming was rumored to have been selected because he could do an excellent Bavarian accent. Like any language, German has its regional dialects and accents.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Karl » Sat Oct 23, 2010 1:21 pm

Yes, for sure, there isn't only one German accent, any more than there's just one American accent. One small example is the way a German would try to pronounce our TH sound, which doesn't exist in German. It may be done as a D sound or a ZH sound or sometimes one way and sometimes the other, with the ZH more likely in the areas closer to France. Alan seems to vary between the two possibilities, if you listen closely, but more often the ZH, as in the famous exchange with Mystique: "Even zheir voice?" He was in the stage production of "Cabaret" as the M.C., using a German accent for the entire play including the songs, as many of the other actors did. You'll hear a wide variety of German accents, if you listen to the soundtrack or the segments that are on YouTube.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby DarkHound » Wed Jul 13, 2011 9:28 pm

hmm. well...

1. he'd a have fur
2. his teeth would be more like a cats and less like a sharks
3. his hair would be less gelled and curly, instead being about jaw length and straight, a few longer wisps to the front.
4. he'd be more flexible
5. he'd actually have triple jointed legs, because triple jointed legs are awesome.
6. his fingers would be thinner.
7. he'd be funnier and more sarcastic.
8. there would be more refrance to his fencing skills and ability to crawl along walls.
9. his face would be more sharply angled, and altogether, his form would be less bulky and more slender.
10. he'd be taller.

I'll stop at ten before I go off on a huge post discribing every detail, lol!
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Mon Sep 12, 2011 2:19 pm

I did love catching up on this in here, and I have no idea why I never posted on it wayyy back in the day. But here goes:

What would I change about X2 Nightcrawler? I'm with Spaz. Everything. Putting aside my personal dislike of Alan Cumming (I really, truly despise the man), this portrayal of Kurt made it hard to explain to all the people I dragged to X2 why I was a Nightcrawler fan. He was gloomy, scared, self conscious, overly religious, and U G L Y. I never understood why they did the scars, same as I don't get why they gave Mystique scales. Is just making them blue not enough? Is the discriminating super hero movie going audience so fickle that they can't accept blue people, but they can accept blue people with skin conditions?

I would have, at very least, liked to have seen Kurt look a bit more fit than Alan was. He looked doughy, and we're to believe he's an acrobat? He looks better suited to be a teamster. And the praying, lord the praying. I don't dislike Nightcrawler being religious, I think it's an interesting bit of his character. But I do dislike him being preachy.

But in reading back, this made me LOL:

The Drastic Spastic wrote:And stop praying outloud all the time, Mr. Force My Beliefs On Everyone Else On The Plane. Seriously, even without the religious differences, if I were stuck on a plane with someone who kept up a constant stream of intrusive jabbering, there would be An Incident. He's supposed to be shy, why's he yelling to himself??


I could not agree more. Put away your broken cross and be useful for a second!
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Mon Sep 12, 2011 7:13 pm


I could not agree more. Put away your broken cross and be useful for a second!


His superhero personality got replaced by "Average-Day-Faith-Hero" persona. Total shame. I can't in a million years imagine those who wanted Kurt to stay true to Cockrum's image could've wanted that.



Also, if we were to change Kurt, I'd give him a tattoo over his eye, two swords, longer hair, a bad-taste-in-his-mouth about this whole "faith" thing, and a twitchy-slashy-finger to mow down those who stood in the way of him and his mutant kin.


Oh wait, I'm getting that! :3 :AoA Suuuuuuu haaaappyyyyyyy!!
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:17 am

I still think X2 Nightcrawler was gross.

The problem with the accent is that it is entirely unnatural to have perfect American style grammar yet still have a ridiculous exaggerated accent. He sounded like an American pretending to be German as a joke. (VE HAF VAYS OFF MAKING YOU TOCK.) He uses uncommon phrasal verbs correctly, for gods sake, it's laughable to have him substituting V for W and D (or Z) for TH every time any of these sounds comes up.

This was something that always struck me as off, but I couldn't explain why. Now that I know all about language acquisition and stuff it bothers me even more.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:27 am

The Drastic Spastic wrote:I still think X2 Nightcrawler was gross.

The problem with the accent is that it is entirely unnatural to have perfect American style grammar yet still have a ridiculous exaggerated accent. He sounded like an American pretending to be German as a joke. (VE HAF VAYS OFF MAKING YOU TOCK.) He uses uncommon phrasal verbs correctly, for gods sake, it's laughable to have him substituting V for W and D (or Z) for TH every time any of these sounds comes up.

This was something that always struck me as off, but I couldn't explain why. Now that I know all about language acquisition and stuff it bothers me even more.


Are you telling me that all those fan fic writers are wrong? NO. NO I WILL NOT ACCEPT IT.

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But I agree about the grossness of X2 Kurt. He looked greasy and smelly and he had nail fungus, which I really didn't get. Were they trying to make him as gross as possible?
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby The Drastic Spastic » Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:24 am

I actually took out a line about fanfic writers out of that post. I thought it might be a bit too mean, you know not showing sufficient respect for the hard work they do.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Karl » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:40 pm

Regarding Kurt's accent in X-2, you're probably correct that he would be unlikely to get English grammar perfectly right, yet mess up his W's and TH's in the real world. However, I have heard recordings of real people -- German speakers who had learned English and lived in the US -- who spoke very much that way. Perhaps a bit more subtle with their W's and TH's, but it was there.
However, it's not as if the comic version of Kurt did a whole lot better, considering that there were many instances of him saying German words that weren't even spelled correctly, sometimes not even having the right meanings due to the incorrect spelling.
In both instances, movie and comics, the writers are at fault for being sloppy and inaccurate with their dialog.
On behalf of those of us who write fanfic and attempt to recreate Kurt's accent from the movie, we pretty much have to write his accent as it was presented in the movie, since our stories are based on the movie version of Kurt. Perhaps if we were true linguists who were also fluent in German, we could create a more realistic accent, complete with grammatical errors. Unfortunately, most of us are not that knowledgeable about such things. :(

The biggest thing that I can fault about Kurt in X-2 is the scars. While I do like the idea and even use them in the fanfic I write, it is way too big a departure from the comic book version. There was virtually no explanation given for why he did all that. Someone who cuts himself up to such an extent has heavy duty psychological reasons for doing so. The comic version of Kurt shows no inclination at all for that sort of behavior.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Tue Sep 13, 2011 8:48 pm

Karl wrote:The biggest thing that I can fault about Kurt in X-2 is the scars. While I do like the idea and even use them in the fanfic I write, it is way too big a departure from the comic book version. There was virtually no explanation given for why he did all that. Someone who cuts himself up to such an extent has heavy duty psychological reasons for doing so. The comic version of Kurt shows no inclination at all for that sort of behavior.


The truth of the matter is X2 Kurt =/= Comic Kurt and was never intended to be Comic Kurt. I've always looked at the movies as a new timeline, similar to Ultimate or any of the Exiles universes. I view the cartoons the same way. Otherwise, you get hung up on canon and can't enjoy the movie for what it is.

I'd say that X2 Kurt seems exactly the type to carve stuff into his skin. He doesn't come off as the most well adjusted person ever. Plus I don't know exactly how much of the Bible he's read, but they're pretty clear on tattoos in there.
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Postby Ult_Sm86 » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:19 am


Plus I don't know exactly how much of the Bible he's read, but they're pretty clear on tattoos in there.


But how do you say no tot some of those?
:*D


No, but seriously --

I've always understood a book is a book (comic is a comic) and a movie is a movie, and they're two separate continuities.

But the proceeding work should always do its best to RESPECT the original work, and some parts of Nightcrawler seemed too disrespectful. And X-3 as a whole was just a big middle finger to comic readers.
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Wed Sep 14, 2011 3:37 pm

Ult_Sm86 wrote:
No, but seriously --

I've always understood a book is a book (comic is a comic) and a movie is a movie, and they're two separate continuities.

But the proceeding work should always do its best to RESPECT the original work, and some parts of Nightcrawler seemed too disrespectful. And X-3 as a whole was just a big middle finger to comic readers.


I've learned over the years that if you have expectations - based on the comics or what have you - then you are setting yourself up for disappointment. Accepting the movies as a completely different entity than the comics (and this is ALL superhero movies I'm talking about) makes it easier for me to just enjoy them without nitpicking every little thing that didn't mesh up with the comic portrayal. After all, Xmen: First Class was SO far removed from comic canon, and yet it was THE most enjoyable of all the Xmen movies I've seen. Had I written it off for not being close enough to canon, or went in there expecting something closer to the comics, I would have been severely disappointed and missed out on an amazing movie.

Not to mention the fact that much of what occurs in comic book canon would never translate to the screen in a way that would attract mainstream audiences. And without attracting mainstream audiences, you don't get the numbers you need to justify making these movies. Green Lantern was like a fan boys wet dream, and it didn't stick around too long. It made just a little more than half it's production budget in the US (overseas made up for it) and its final numbers were nothing to write home about.

That all being said, even in looking at X2 Kurt as a completely different entity than comic Kurt, I cannot stand him. He sucked. And having the awesome comic Kurt to compare him to makes him suck more. But standing on his own he's incredibly lame.
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Postby Karl » Wed Sep 14, 2011 9:52 pm

Quote from NachtcGleiskette:

"The truth of the matter is X2 Kurt =/= Comic Kurt and was never intended to be Comic Kurt. I've always looked at the movies as a new timeline, similar to Ultimate or any of the Exiles universes. I view the cartoons the same way. Otherwise, you get hung up on canon and can't enjoy the movie for what it is.

I'd say that X2 Kurt seems exactly the type to carve stuff into his skin. He doesn't come off as the most well adjusted person ever. Plus I don't know exactly how much of the Bible he's read, but they're pretty clear on tattoos in there. "

I like that idea that each version is its own, not just a reflection of the original but more a sort of an alternate universe. Makes a lot of sense to me to view them that way. Some folks are going to like different universes more than others, and that's all right.

I saw the movies first, before reading the comics, and the movies were what got me to read the comics. I basically liked the movie Kurt as he was portrayed, and would have liked to see more of him, but that didn't happen.

As for the Bible and tattoos, scars aren't the same as tattoos, but I suppose both could be considered forms of self-mutilation.
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Postby NachtcGleiskette » Wed Sep 14, 2011 10:07 pm

Karl wrote:Quote from NachtcGleiskette:

"The truth of the matter is X2 Kurt =/= Comic Kurt and was never intended to be Comic Kurt. I've always looked at the movies as a new timeline, similar to Ultimate or any of the Exiles universes. I view the cartoons the same way. Otherwise, you get hung up on canon and can't enjoy the movie for what it is.

I'd say that X2 Kurt seems exactly the type to carve stuff into his skin. He doesn't come off as the most well adjusted person ever. Plus I don't know exactly how much of the Bible he's read, but they're pretty clear on tattoos in there. "

I like that idea that each version is its own, not just a reflection of the original but more a sort of an alternate universe. Makes a lot of sense to me to view them that way. Some folks are going to like different universes more than others, and that's all right.

I saw the movies first, before reading the comics, and the movies were what got me to read the comics. I basically liked the movie Kurt as he was portrayed, and would have liked to see more of him, but that didn't happen.

As for the Bible and tattoos, scars aren't the same as tattoos, but I suppose both could be considered forms of self-mutilation.



The verse that I've seen thrown around about tattoos is:

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:28

So Kurt's marks definitely apply. Bad Catholic!

PS, Karl, there's a little box that says "quote" in the upper left hand corner of every post. Click on it and you'll get a little quoted box in your post like I have above. Makes it easier :)
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Karl » Thu Sep 15, 2011 3:55 pm

NachtcGleiskette wrote:
The verse that I've seen thrown around about tattoos is:

Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.
Leviticus 19:28

So Kurt's marks definitely apply. Bad Catholic!

PS, Karl, there's a little box that says "quote" in the upper left hand corner of every post. Click on it and you'll get a little quoted box in your post like I have above. Makes it easier :)


Thank you! I kept looking for the quote thing at the bottom, since that's where it is on another Forum.

As for Kurt's being a bad Catholic because of the scars, don't forget that Catholicism is not quite that fundamentalist about taking everything in the Bible, especially the Old Testament, as revealed truth. The Catholic Church reserves to itself the right to interpret the Bible, and there are many rules from Levitticus that it does not recognize as binding on its members. I just googled the Catholic stance on tattoos and the answers from several priests were that it is or is not considered a sin, depending on the motivation of the person getting the tattoo and the nature of the tattoo itself.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Nandireya » Sat Sep 17, 2011 11:40 am

I liked his entrance scene...flipping around the White House...kicking butt and not staying in one place long enough to take names...but the rest of it...
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Postby littlebamf » Sat Sep 17, 2011 2:24 pm

Yeah really. The opening of X2 was one of the best scenes from all of the movies combined. Everything else was kind of dissapointing though.

But I'll be contraversial here - I don't dislike Alan Cumming, I think he's a pretty good actor. However, I don't think he was necessarily a good casting choice for Kurt and even the best actors can't nail every single part. Then there was also the writing, which on the whole was pretty good, but they're hardly trying to put on King Lear here. Kurt had a strong start that fizzled out slowly over the course of the movie. He did have one or two other good moments but on the whole it was all a bit creepy really. So all in all, it was a mixed bag of misfortune and questionable choices.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby NachtcGleiskette » Sat Sep 17, 2011 9:34 pm

littlebamf wrote:Yeah really. The opening of X2 was one of the best scenes from all of the movies combined. Everything else was kind of dissapointing though.

But I'll be contraversial here - I don't dislike Alan Cumming, I think he's a pretty good actor. However, I don't think he was necessarily a good casting choice for Kurt and even the best actors can't nail every single part. Then there was also the writing, which on the whole was pretty good, but they're hardly trying to put on King Lear here. Kurt had a strong start that fizzled out slowly over the course of the movie. He did have one or two other good moments but on the whole it was all a bit creepy really. So all in all, it was a mixed bag of misfortune and questionable choices.


To me, it seemed like they had no idea of what to do with him after that initial scene. They got that down, patted everyone on the back, then were like "Wait, we have to do more with him? Uhhh...OH he can save Rogue! Yeah, and have him talk to Mystique for like, a second, that'll make the fanboys cream. That's good, right?"
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Postby Karl » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:27 pm

littlebamf wrote:Yeah really. The opening of X2 was one of the best scenes from all of the movies combined. Everything else was kind of dissapointing though.

But I'll be contraversial here - I don't dislike Alan Cumming, I think he's a pretty good actor. However, I don't think he was necessarily a good casting choice for Kurt and even the best actors can't nail every single part. Then there was also the writing, which on the whole was pretty good, but they're hardly trying to put on King Lear here. Kurt had a strong start that fizzled out slowly over the course of the movie. He did have one or two other good moments but on the whole it was all a bit creepy really. So all in all, it was a mixed bag of misfortune and questionable choices.


I'll be even more controversial and say that I positively like Alan Cumming, both as an actor and as a person. He is so upfront about being gay/bisexual and speaks up for the causes he believes in. I've seen recordings of a couple of the plays he's been in and was impressed by his performances.

IMO, he could have done Kurt pretty well if he'd had more to work with in the way of meaningful scenes and dialog. Yes, that action sequence at the White House was terribly impressive, but that was due to the stunts and special effects, rather than anything much that Alan did. After that, he was more or less just along for the ride. The most important thing he did was teleport Storm into Cerebro.

BTW, I think a real Catholic would have been far more likely to cross himself just before undertaking a risky act, rather than recitkng the first half of the Lord's Prayer. If you're going to make someone very visibly Catholic, at least do it right.
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If You Could Change Kurt...

Postby Ult_Sm86 » Sun Sep 18, 2011 2:30 pm

I think Azazel's scene trumps Kurt's opening scene in X-2, but not by very much.

Really, he only trumps it 'cause he's got swordy-thingies. :engarde :azazel

That said -- you know what I would change, for real, if I could change Kurt?

Make him back to being like he was in Excalibur. I've been reading back-issues of that (suddenly) and finding myself LOVING IT.

What the heck? He was SO COOL! Why'd they change him? They turned him into such a debbie-downer.

I mean... I still enjoyed his type of character, but for the same reasons I like a character like Daredevil or Batman.

Kurt is MORE FUN when he's not brooding.

[Edited on 18/9/11 by Ult_Sm86]
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