Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

thewildeman · Post by **thewildeman** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:50 pm

Okay, lets see if I can post now....:dead

This is my first post here so a religious thread seems a good place to start.

Speaking of religion and how it relates to Kurt, I have to say its part of what makes him such a believable character. Someone once complained to me of the mention of religion or God in comic books. I really don't see anything wrong with it. It is the mention of things that we can so relate to in the real world, that make the fantasy world seem so much more vivid. I like Kurts religious side, without it, he couldn't have been the backbone of the Xmen as he is now and has been....

Thanks.

Warbird · Post by **Warbird** » Sat Feb 07, 2004 10:58 pm

You're welcome.

nice to meet you.

Last I heard it was sepreation of curch and state and not the seperation of church and comics. People get bent out of shape it seems because A)they want to seem politically and socialy progressive or B) their religion isn't being depicted so it's a travesty to have others up. All I have to say in either case is, how untollerant can you be!!!

I agree that having such real and diverse qualities and personalities is what makes a really good comic. I think that's my problem with some charicters... i.e. superman, there's nothing to him. Thses qualities is importatn.

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 4:09 am

Besides, it helps people to see the character as someone that's actually more believeable. I mean, you can't just have people who have no say in religion at all. Even if they don't believe in anythihg, make them mention it. Religion tends to open more doors to a character whether it's lack of faith or in Kut's case, a great deal of it.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:56 am

Originally posted by thewildeman
I like Kurts religious side, without it, he couldn't have been the backbone of the Xmen as he is now and has been....

I agree there is nothing wrong with mentioning it. don't have a problem wiht characters mentioning that they are religious. but.... that last sentence. why not??

I will agree that he has sometimes used his religion to help him to that end, but keep in mind he did not even mention he was Catholic until the middle of the Brood Saga sometime, roughly 70 issues after the character was first introduced, and he was just as moral and just as supportve to the team before then as after.

sorry. stayed out of this tread till now because welll. i'm atheist. and i am touchy about that. why can't a person be good, moral, a 'backbone' for a group of people unless they are religious?

my father is atheist and he is one of the best people i have ever known. he sells computers for a living. every once in a while, he collects enough parts to put together a system for reletavely cheap, so he puts them together and modifies them to be accessed via laser sensors and donates them free of charge to quadrapalegics who have lost the power of speech in the Fanning Center, a hospital for long term care patients. he also visits those patients more often than their own families do. but sometimes people make it seem someone can't do something like that unless they are religious.

Wolvertique · Post by **Wolvertique** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 3:15 pm

Colossus was an atheist. I doubt anyone can say he did nothing moral for the X-men. Unless sacrificing himself to cure the Legacy Virus means nothing to people.

In my experience, "bad" people are bad whether they believe in a religion or not. We've all known, presumably, "bad" people who are Christians. Those people would be "bad" whether they gave up their religion for another or for no religion. I'm glad that the X-men show good people, like Wolverine, Kurt, and Colossus, of different religious faith and no faith.

My mother is an atheist. She has spent her life working for a non-profit that benefits women and children. They run a domestic violence shelter and the only Big Brothers/Big Sisters program in her area. She is definitely a good person, and anyone who says she is not does not know what he/she is talking about.

Warbird · Post by **Warbird** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 6:17 pm

Peolple are going to get sick of me saying this, but it's something I honestly belive in. What you do, how you act, and how you treat others determines if you're a good person or not. It doesn't matter what faith (if any) you are!!! A good hearted person is a good person, and a cruel person is a bad person. There's no way around it.

Morality doesn't always come with your faith. I'm sure we can all think of some highly religiouse people who are just down right $#!tty to others. Morality is simply a way to walk through this world trying to do what's right. It's not just what a religiuose leader tells you. I was actually going to use colossus as an example too... I guess it's just beating a dead horse at this point... Like I said, I realize that I, and others have posted this point of veiw before, but it's a concept that is VERY important to me.

scheherazade · Post by **scheherazade** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 8:10 pm

Originally posted by Warbird
I was actually going to use colossus as an example too... I guess it's just beating a dead horse at this point...

Awww... Sad pun.... *cries*

So, I just sloshed through all fourteen pages of this thread... oy vey.

Going back a way, someone mentioned that they could only imagine that children raised to be both Christian and Jewish would be confused. My mom is Jewish (reform) and my dad is Roman Catholic, and I wasn't confused (and am not now) about religion.

I was always taught that both religions taught the same thing, -- about right and wrong, and morality, and being good to others and all that lovely stuff-- Only Catholics believed that Jesus was the son of God, and Jewish people didn't. I rather prefer this way of being brought up, because I wasn't ever afraid to ask religious questions or find out more about why different people believe different things.I was brought up, basically, as an agnostic... believing in God but having little to do with the Church. I think it has made me a more understanding person in general, because I don't have an affiliation with any religion.

Now, I do identify myself as Jewish, because it is more of a cultural thing than a religious belief. As for Jews For Jesus, they're a little more than just Jewish people who have converted to Christianity and kept their Jewish background. It's more political, that they generally believe that the Jewish faith can incorporate the New Testament and keep the Jewish traditions... There's one in every good Jewish family, as the joke goes...

I had more to say, but I'll wait for later...

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 9:18 pm

Quote: "They changed around an entire 5 or 6 part arc of X-Statix because they didn't want people loyal to princess Diana to be offended.... but to hell with good christians?" Yeah... I know that was like several pages back, but I have to add that I agree with that!!!

Anyway... here is what I do not comprehend (back to this Mystique thing) she wanted so badly to have a baby, and did everything she could to have a baby, then she dumps the kid??? Huh??? What? Who wrote that into it? It doesn't work right. If she wanted a baby that badly, she would have kept him, right?

BamfChyck · Post by **BamfChyck** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:01 pm

I think it was pretty clear that she wanted the baby ONLY to hold onto all the material goodies she got from being married to the count, and a blue baby couldn't help her that way. If he's looked like a normal peach colored baby, she might have had a chance.
Plus she was mad as hell at Azzy and may have been striking out at him by hurting his son. It's been known to happen.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Sun Feb 08, 2004 10:09 pm

it was also established before that storyline that that's what happened. in X-Men Unlimited 4, and before she kept who Graydon who is only slightly younger than Kurt, until he was a teenager because he looked normal and she could maintain the illusion of normalcy with him. but she was also somewhat contradictory because she abandoned him later because he was not a mutant. she wanted a mutant child, jsut not a 24/7 visible mutant. so then she adopted Rogue when her own attempts to have a baby that fit a very narrow perception of what she really wanted failed. she also may have kept Kurt had she been in another position. but given the position she was in, having a baby that looked like that took her from having wealth and power to having nothing.

and i should have known people here would understand about the morality issue. but a lot of people don't seem to understand. Recently the school board polled people on the inclusion of religious teachings in schools, and they lumped a class on morality, not 'religious morality' just 'morality' in under religious teachings

i wrote tem a letter.... Atheistic morality is just based on empathy. you don't do something that would hurt someone, since you would not want that to happen to you. and you help people because you would want people to help you should you find yourself in some unfortunate position. and most religions teachings of morality are based on this, really. 'do unto others as you would have done unto you' etc. except there is a punishment and reward system thrown in with heaven/nirvana/valhalla etc and the numerous hells in the various religions.

Maelstrom · Post by **Maelstrom** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 5:01 pm

Unfortunately, Jill, people see the word "Atheist" and just assume that without the belief in (or threats of) a God, you must be a very bad person. At best, they equate you with Madalyn Murray O'Haire, who was responsible for removing prayer in schools in '63 (a good thing, in my opinion, but really ticked off a lot of people), and also had such a loud, "in your face" militancy that she annoyed many of her fellow athiests. Or they'll shove you in the same camp as Michael Newdow, who decided to use his kid as an excuse to change the pledge of allegiance.

(A little clarification on that point. If Michael Newdow wants to sue to have the words "under God" removed, he has the right to do that. But the very idea of using the excuse that "it made his daughter uncomfortable", when she neither lives with him nor believes in his particular view, let alone minds saying the pledge, is outrageous. He's dragging that poor girl into a very uncomfortable position, and his methods are making everyone out there who might agree with his end point look bad. Do it yourself, mister! Don't use your kid as a shield!)

95% of the world believes in some form of higher powers, whether it's one of the "big" religions like Christianity, or something like tribal animism. This puts atheists in an extreme minority. Their view is incredibly foreign to the rest of the world, and we're all too familiar with how foreign, unpopular notions or people can be treated. Rather than try to understand, it's easier to demonize, especially when you can have God "on your side".

Jill, I find your explanation that athiests "don't need the threat of an afterworld to do well" very telling.

Though it wasn't anything I'd thought about much before, I think you're definitely onto something here. The threat of an unpleasant hereafter has been used as a way to enforce morality for a very long time. I think the Egyptians were the first recorded instance of a "reward and punishment" system of faith. There are many people who just can't be hauled into line without a higher force or the threat therof. Small children (who tend to have no morals due to inexperience) have to be taught that actions have repercussions, and that is done by the threat of punishments from parents. Certain people would steal if they thought they could get away with it, but the police and law system keeps them in check.

If you don't have a specific belief in any gods, then your actions can never be for or because of them. There's an accountability inherent in atheism that seems lacking with too many forms (or perversions) of religions. You're not being charitable for bonus points somewhere else. You're doing it because you can see that this family is really in dire straights, and they need your help.

For a certain selection of humanity, I think you're right. Religion forms the basis of a law system, of an inescapable parent looking over your shoulder no matter where you go. You stole something and thought you got away with it? No ya didn't. God/Allah/Vishnu/whoever saw you. You'll pay one way or another. There are some who have to be hauled in line with this, because there's no other way to keep an eye on them all the time.

But I don't think that's the only reason behind faith. A universal parent can also make you feel loved when you have no one and nothing else in your life. For those who don't need constant watching and threat of chastizement, the knowledge that someone is there beside you at all times is very comforting.

Warbird · Post by **Warbird** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 6:31 pm

Originally posted by thylacine
Quote: "They changed around an entire 5 or 6 part arc of X-Statix because they didn't want people loyal to princess Diana to be offended.... but to hell with good christians?" Yeah... I know that was like several pages back, but I have to add that I agree with that!!!

Actually that quote is taken out of context. There's an air of sarcasm to it if you read the rest. I belive my next statement was that though it was an odd thing to do, the princess Diana arc had no point and was just for fun. The violation of the church had a point to it. So it does make sence that they would allow somthing that is trying to make a statement but not a potential offensive situation that has no real point.

The Drastic Spastic · Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:18 pm

http://meninhats.com/d/20020918.html

This made me laugh so hard, and then I put it in the thread and then I explained the obvious because of the stupid character limit.

Warbird · Post by **Warbird** » Mon Feb 09, 2004 11:45 pm

That's so harsh!!! It's funny because it's true. ah, I like the detail given to the description of damnation... it's the little things.

Bamfette · Post by **Bamfette** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 12:48 am

Originally posted by Maelstrom
Unfortunately, Jill, people see the word "Atheist" and just assume that without the belief in (or threats of) a God, you must be a very bad person. At best, they equate you with Madalyn Murray O'Haire, who was responsible for removing prayer in schools in '63 (a good thing, in my opinion, but really ticked off a lot of people), and also had such a loud, "in your face" militancy that she annoyed many of her fellow athiests. Or they'll shove you in the same camp as Michael Newdow, who decided to use his kid as an excuse to change the pledge of allegiance.

and that's what really bothers me. while i don't think the word 'god' has a place n the country's currency, or whatever, simply because it does not represent everyone in that country because they do not all believe in the same god or a god at all, and that national things like currency should represent EVERYONE... I would not automatically associate myself wiht other atheists.

because it is a belief system not based in any way on the teachings of anyone, or a book of teachings or anything like that, different atheists will feel and act differently about different things. some will take an almost militant stance on it. like the dead oposite of the most extreme fire and brimstone Southern Baptist. while others (like myself) have pride in it, but are more layed back.

95% of the world believes in some form of higher powers, whether it's one of the "big" religions like Christianity, or something like tribal animism. This puts atheists in an extreme minority. Their view is incredibly foreign to the rest of the world, and we're all too familiar with how foreign, unpopular notions or people can be treated. Rather than try to understand, it's easier to demonize, especially when you can have God "on your side".

Oh, i realize this. and that's part of the reason i like to bring it up. i like to educate people. not convert them, but i know i am not a bad person. i know other atheists who are not bad people. i know believing this way does not make you immoral automatically (though i am sure there are immoral atheists out there) i wish for other people to understand this, as well. some people they assume you're Christian unless you say otherwise. and i have to admit, it's probably a pretty safe assumption to make most times... but sometimes people have said things to me, especially during the tense times following 9-11, about 'evil' atheists and etc etc etc. and i saw a poll at http://www.religioustolerance.org that said, on a census when asked the question "If your party nominated a generally well-qualified person for president who happened to be a 'X' would you vote for that person?" if "X" is Atheist, in 1999 less than 50% would vote yes. the lowest of ANY minority group. http://www.religioustolerance.org/amer_intol.htm

and i find that very sad. I realize that given that it was asking for a political leader, some could fear that an atheist would take away funding for religion, or something. but still...

Jill, I find your explanation that athiests "don't need the threat of an afterworld to do well" very telling. Though it wasn't anything I'd thought about much before, I think you're definitely onto something here. The threat of an unpleasant hereafter has been used as a way to enforce morality for a very long time. I think the Egyptians were the first recorded instance of a "reward and punishment" system of faith. There are many people who just can't be hauled into line without a higher force or the threat therof. Small children (who tend to have no morals due to inexperience) have to be taught that actions have repercussions, and that is done by the threat of punishments from parents. Certain people would steal if they thought they could get away with it, but the police and law system keeps them in check.

Well, i apologize if anyone finds this offensive, but it is my personal belief that religion arose in part to help rein in people. get them to do what their leader wanted. early religions were very closely tied to government, in times when laws were few. the promise of paradise after your death, or threat of punishment, could help keep early people in line. A lot of gods had a pantheon of gods and the in favour god could change based on the political stance of the time. in times of war, Aries became more widely worshipped and supported by the government, for instance. A lot of the early religions also didn't have a book of teachings, really, or a set of rules to follow... but they did have a set of anecdotal stories that taught morality that way. nearly all of them have a story of someone getting murdered and severe punishment for that, for example. Set murdering Osiris and being banished, Loki murdering Balder and being imprisoned and torured for eternity, etc.

so most religions, i think, started as a way to impart lessons of morality, and to maintain order that way. if as a society they had not yet advanced to the point of people just being good for the sake of it and to help their fellow people, maybe they needed religion as an added incentive. it has since evolved beyond that, of course... and some religions became things that i don't think they were ever intended to be. i am talking waaay back like 5000 years ago.

If you don't have a specific belief in any gods, then your actions can never be for or because of them. There's an accountability inherent in atheism that seems lacking with too many forms (or perversions) of religions. You're not being charitable for bonus points somewhere else. You're doing it because you can see that this family is really in dire straights, and they need your help.

and that's why i am proud to believe the way i do. I take pride in the fact that everything i do, good or bad, I am the only one accountable for that. and i don't want anyone feeling sorry for me, or say they are sad that i haven't found god, or whatever. i hate that. it annoys me no end. I know people mean well when they say it, but... yeah, i believe that after I die, that's that. the end, nothing more for me in the afterlife or reincarnated, or anything. but that just means I will have to try and make an impact in the here and now, do something to leave my mark so i will be remembered.

For a certain selection of humanity, I think you're right. Religion forms the basis of a law system, of an inescapable parent looking over your shoulder no matter where you go. You stole something and thought you got away with it? No ya didn't. God/Allah/Vishnu/whoever saw you. You'll pay one way or another. There are some who have to be hauled in line with this, because there's no other way to keep an eye on them all the time.

um... i guess i already covered this... but i agree.

But I don't think that's the only reason behind faith. A universal parent can also make you feel loved when you have no one and nothing else in your life. For those who don't need constant watching and threat of chastizement, the knowledge that someone is there beside you at all times is very comforting.

oh, i agree. I realize a lot of people feel very comforted by their belief, and get a LOT from it. and religion has accomplished some very wonderful things. religions as mentioned before are responsible for a lot of the charities out there, and stuff. i just *personally* do not think i need that to be a good person, or for guidance or support.

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 4:00 am

Oh man..that comic was hilarious, and that's exactly what most aggressive converter people do! If they can't get you in nicely, they threaten you with Hell...it's sad really.

Sorte Springer · Post by **Sorte Springer** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 9:14 am

About Nightcrawler and religion.

I am really quite surprised at this discussion. I never expected that X-men readers would think of Nightcrawler as a role models for beliving Christians.
(I use the term "beliving" because techically I am a Christian, I am babtized and I have not renounced that, but actually I an an agnostic)

I always thaught that Nightcrawler was made a beliving Catholic, because he needed to have other personality traits than just being an odd looking super hero, like Colossius was an artist, Wolverine has an affinity for Japanese culture, Beast likes fine art, Storm loves her plants and so on.

I used to see Nightcrawler as a super hero who is also a Catholic, (and an Errol Flynn fan) not a "Catholic super hero".
I was never under the impression that Nightcrawler was a good guy because he was a Christian. He was a good guy and a Christan.

In Denmark where I live, atheism, or at lest being at a religious minimun is pretty common, if not the most "normal" veiwpoint of the population.
I therefore have trouble understanding why being religious, or not being religious, should mean anything in the question of a persons morality.

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 2:18 pm

Hi. People mentioned Madalyn Murray O'Hare... I read a book about her. In case anyone is interested... Her son became a born again Christian and was heard to say she "needs Jesus." Also, she has since disappeared, and people believe she may have been killed by a member of her group, the motive being money. When she was young, she tried to defect to the Soviet Union, but they didn't want her, so she came back to the USA.

The subject of morality and reward / punishment came up. I am going to paralegal school. Some of my professors are criminal defense attorneys. They are quite certain that MOST PEOPLE only do right because of what the law says, and they know they could get in trouble if they do wrong. SOME PEOPLE can do the right thing because it is the right thing, but MOST PEOPLE will lie, cheat, steal, and kill if they think they can get away with stuff. If there was no law or punishment, there would be total and absolute social chaos. And that is from a guy who really knows his criminals!!!

I feel that I personally do the right thing since it is the right thing (I'm a Catholic and I also believe in all the God stuff, too), but I also feel that people who willingly do the right thing are in the minority. I used to be really naive and think that everyone was "nice," but I got hurt enough times to know that the law professor is right -- most people are little criminals. Most people will do anything they think they can get away with. Lock up your car, set your burglar alarm, keep an eye on your purse. And that's the sad reality, people!

Warbird · Post by **Warbird** » Tue Feb 10, 2004 10:59 pm

Originally posted by Sorte Springer
About Nightcrawler and religion.

I am really quite surprised at this discussion. I never expected that X-men readers would think of Nightcrawler as a role models for beliving Christians.

I used to see Nightcrawler as a super hero who is also a Catholic, (and an Errol Flynn fan) not a "Catholic super hero".
I was never under the impression that Nightcrawler was a good guy because he was a Christian. He was a good guy and a Christan.

I actually think that is very accurate. He was made a Catholic in part to show he had faith contradictory to his appearance, and thus develpoed more substance and credability. His being a hero and a nice guy were primary and his religion was more of a background element. Over time it became more evedent that he is deeply spiritual and modivated by his faith. That's when he began to be, I wouldn't say a rolemodle, but a positive example OF Caholisism. Not necessaraly an example FOR Catholics to follow. Instead he is a charicter that breaks all of the Catholic stereo types and, I feel for at least people who really read comics, is helping to eliminate that stereotype.

thewildeman · Post by **thewildeman** » Wed Feb 11, 2004 2:53 am

Eep, didn't expect to go that far. I should explain my own view on the term "religious". I find it a very complex term and to me it holds more of a spiritualistic definition and not a bible toting preaching one. Religion is a powerful system of belief, I simply meant that without his powerful system of belief (call it morals if you prefer that terminology) he just would not have been the same (at least to me). It would be like Wolverine without his claws. I don't think there is anything wrong with being athiest either, I say to each person, believe as you will, but harm none for the sake of that belief alone. Consider this, he is written now as a devout Catholic, but yet bought a Jewish star for Shadowcat. It's more than just a religion, it is that deep spiritual focus from within, (along with the fact that Kurt really cares about his teammates). Consider how many times he has been the close friend offering advice to his teammates? And when he was rescued by Prof X from an angry mob, what sort of building did he go into to save himself? (I don't remember for exact certain, but I thought it was a church). I really thought that sense of commitment and powerful belief were always a part of Nightcrawler. Sorry if I offended anyone. That is just what religion means to me.

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 2:19 pm

I REALLY, REALLY MISSED ALL YOU GUYS!!!

I missed visiting this discussion every morning before class and debating all this deeply serious philosophy, theology, religion, and furry blue mutants!

We're back!!! YES!!!

So let's all start where we left off then!

BamfChyck · Post by **BamfChyck** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 5:37 pm

Thy, it looks like U2Us not working yet.

How's your mom doing?

thylacine · Post by **thylacine** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 10:44 pm

What are U2U's??? I am not a computer expert, so I do not know???

Thanks for asking about Mom, by the way. The doctors say she is fine. Her MRI was "normal."

Also... I shall take up all this computer space and announce this... I'm on the Dean's List!!! YES!!!

Just wanted to share it with all you guys!

I'm glad we're back, anyway!

CurlyyHairGirl · Post by **CurlyyHairGirl** » Thu Mar 04, 2004 11:44 pm

Wow is it just me or was there a lot of stuff that was deleted?:o OH well. I'm so glad to be back. I missed everyone sooo much, and am very happy to hear how your mom is thyacine, thats great! I'm looking forward to some religous discussion .

I've been deprived.

Lauren · Post by **Lauren** » Fri Mar 05, 2004 3:47 am

Yay for Thy's mommy! *huggles everybody in celebration* Now she can beats up your uncle!