Nightcrawler/Religious & Spiritual Discussion

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thylacine
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Post by thylacine »

I think you need to do something really bad to go to hell... like being Jeffrey Dahmer... not little stuff like cheating on your taxes. That's something for the IRS to worry about, not God!
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Post by Gaz »

Or hit a dog and right in front of the owner and then drive away. That's what happened to our family-friend's dog yesterday :bawl
That dog was so sweet. He just drove up, killed it, and left. That dog also happened to be my doggy's dad. A father and husband. I usually don't hate people that I don't know, but I hope that person who killed Buster goes to hell :bawl
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Post by Maelstrom »

Hell is such a subjective thing. I've seen some wonderful versions of it:

An episode of the Simpsons where Disco Stu sees a vision Heaven as an all-night disco. Also there is a rather glum and very out-of-place Frank Sinatra, who claims this is Hell for him.

A short story (or TV show, unsure which) about a nasty biker who goes to Hell. But Hell for him has nothing to do with demons and boiling pitch, which he thought was cool.... No, old Scratch turned him into an 8 year old kid and placed him in a 1950s era front room, watching his parents' slide shows for all eternity... :evil

A far side cartoon, where a devil is ushering someone into a classroom with a smiling nun. The devil's words are to the effect of, "Believe it or not, this is Sister Guido's version of Heaven...."


The formation of Hell (or, should I say, our understanding of it) has always been a bit of a mystery to me. In the Old Testament it's barely mentioned at all. (The same goes for Satan. The Book of Job seems to be the Devil's main apperance there.) You've got sheol, which seems to be both hell and the afterlife. Apparently, the earlier Semites didn't believe in an afterlife, and when you died that was it. I guess your disembodied soul was kind of stuck somewhere dark and creepy. I wonder if, when Christianity and "eternal life" came around, the ideas of sheol blended with visions of the afterlife already common in other cultures? Thereby splitting into our more commonly accepted visions of Heaven and Hell? :scratch

Paranoid delusionaries like Jack Chick would have us believe that "everyone's already going to Hell; only belief in Our Lord and Savior will get you off that one-way road." But I just can't reconcile the idea of an all-merciful and loving God with someone who would gleefully send 99.9% of humanity to eternal torment. Sure, there's a lot of statements in the New Testament that could be taken that way, but only if you twisted them out of shape and removed them from all context.

Case in point: "I am the light and the life. No one comes to the Father but through me."

Sounds pretty inflammatory, doesn't it? "If you dont believe in me, you're not getting to heaven." But when approached in a less literal way, it means if you don't follow His tenents, you're not getting there. And what are the tenets of Christianity? The usual stuff about not stealing, loving your neighbors, parents, and enemies, helping the poor... :scratch Hmmm, where have I heard this stuff before? Maybe from the mouths of every religion in the world? And every philosopher, whether they believe in a God or not?

My view of Hell is a place of self-imposed isolation. When you repeatedly act in a selfish manner, distancing yourself from God, then when you die, the closer proximity to Him will feel like a horrible, burning flame. You could be standing right next to another guy who led a decent life, and is perfectly happy being so close to God. But you, the unrepentant, selfish creep, are so damned miserable that you're isolated among all these happy people.
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Post by Gaz »

Though I don't believe in heaven or hell, i've always imagined that hell would be a combination of everything that one person hates, and heaven is a combination of everything they love. Like each person has their own personal hell and heaven. But I don't put much thought into the stuff I don't actually believe in so that's all I really have...
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Post by The Drastic Spastic »

Originally posted by Maelstrom
He was a being who made a conscious decision to do this, without our asking, and therefore you owe Him.
In other words, Jesus paid for our sins, now let's get our money's worth. :D
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

I don't believe in Heaven or Hell either, even though I was raised to, I've devoloped my own beliefs, not what others say they should be. I believe that when you die, you just die, as far as I know we are in a living Hell as it is. I can't picture nor imagine a heaven or hell. I am a scientific thinker most of the time.

I don't believe that people have the right to tell others how to live their lives, esp. the Church. People have their own views on life and should stick to it if they truely believe in it.
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Post by thylacine »

I am a scientific thinker too and I respect that other people have a right to believe what they want... but this is how I see this afterlife thing. I believe in an afterlife because there has to be something beyond this material world, and I think most people make it to Heaven, but if you were really evil like Ted Bundy, then there is a place for you to go!!!:LOL
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Post by Maelstrom »

Originally posted by CurlyyHairGirl
I don't believe that people have the right to tell others how to live their lives, esp. the Church. People have their own views on life and should stick to it if they truely believe in it.
It should be that a church only runs your life if you let it. Sadly, that is rarely the case. Religion and government have gone hand in hand since the Neolithic Age. Religions were the basis for governments, in fact. The reason the Christians got the short stick (or long bonfire) in Rome was not because they didn't believe in Jupiter, Mars, etc. After all, Rome didn't make bonfires out of Hindus, Egyptians, and so on. But when Christians refues to sacrifice to the Roman pantheon, or to the current emperor, it was considered a form of treason. Religion was so wound up in their government that if you didn't at least acknowledge the gods, it was treason. It would upset the entire society.

The USA was one of the first experiments in chuch-state separations. Or, should I say, one of the first successful experiments. We've lasted for over 200 years now. That's a good track record.
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Post by shakspear »

I found this thread to be very interesting....
No matter what section of a country anyone lives in...
"Or maybe you get a lot of that where you live? Is is like in the South, or something? "
Or what people believe that is their personal belief.
I was raised Southern Baptist, attended at Catholic church when we moved to the South...heh and then for years didn't even go to church. I have a 15 year relationship with a Catholic and together we have a beautiful 11 year old daughter. I accepted Christ as my PERSONAL Savior and it is as Northstarluver said earlier...a Personal relationship between God the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit, and the believer. Everything else is just man made and can be corrupted.
When people like JW or Mormons come to my door, I simply and politely tell them to have a nice day and then close the door. I do believe that there is a place called Hell-it is known as Graduate School!
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Assume a virtue, if you have it not.
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

I'm from the west side, central coast (CA), not to many people I know go overbard with religion though, only some.
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Post by Maelstrom »

In my personal experience, fanaticism, especially religious fanaticism, requires ignorance to breed. You may find those who lead the fanatics may have an education and worldy knowledge, but the vast bulk of their followers are "the great unwashed", often with substantially lower education, experience, and social standing than what is considered "normal" for the area or nation at large.

In fact, ignorance is vital to the formation of a fanatic. Because if you start seeing the rest of the world, and realizing that different does not always equal evil, then you're not much of a fanatic, are you? ;)

In hotbeds such as the Middle East, where they've been trying to wipe each other out for thousands of years, and the Balkan States, where the Christian-Muslim hate has been going on for centuries, it's easy to find fanatics. They're everywhere. They're molded by their societies, they're reinforced by sporatic conflict, and they're lead by a charismatic, educated leader. It's almost always the same, a cult of personality built around a figure of power. Religious fanaticism is precisely the same way. Sects will spring up based not off of the religous texts, but off of the man who interprets them (and, generally, in a manner others of his religion would see as heretical, if not blasphemous).

Where religious fanaticism takes a turn for the especially nasty is in willingness to die for a cause. Oh, sure, every fanatic will hapilly lay down his life, but a religious fanatic cannot be stopped by any force on this Earth, short of his death. If God has told you to do something, what could possibly convince you otherwise?

And if you had any education, if you had the right information and weren't kept in the dark, you would take a look at your religion and realize the very God you're willing to die for also forbids the very action you're proposing, whether it's suicide bombings, shooting doctors, or screaming hacial hatred and separation in His name. If you thought about it at all, you'd say no. And people who think for themselves aren't exactly easy to mold that way, to seduce with stuff that may sound reasonable, but isn't quite right.

As it is in the dictator's best interest to keep his subjects ignorant and in the dark, so it is in the religious demagogue's best interest to only give part of the story, ignoring parts of the holy texts which are "inconvenient".
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Post by NWKurt »

Originally posted by Gaz
Though I don't believe in heaven or hell, i've always imagined that hell would be a combination of everything that one person hates, and heaven is a combination of everything they love. Like each person has their own personal hell and heaven.
If you have ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" with Robin Williams, this can sum up everything you are stating Gaz. It was a real mind opener for me. I believe that there is much more to the story than first meets the eye when you see it. It is a movie that will have you asking questions long after you've seen it. Good in my book!

If you haven't seen it, watch it with an open mind, I recommend it.:)

K
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Post by thylacine »

My uncle became a Jehovah's Witness and it has totally taken over his life. I don't care what other people want to believe in general, but since then he has abandoned us and treats us like we are strangers. I could describe him as a fanatic (and yes, you are right, fanatics have a low level of education) and he believes everything they tell him without questioning any of it for himself. It really hurts to see him this way. You guys have no idea how much it hurts to see him lost.
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Post by tarface »

I can't believe I missed this us Catholics get all the crap, nice to see that Kurt is helping reverse that :D as for fanatics theres devout and then theres foaming at the mouth :/

Anyway nice discussion lasting 19 pages wow! :) with minimal backbiting, when I saw this I was expecting it to beome a landmine field. Monty Python's the Life of Brian also pokes fun at religion in a nice way. Who could forget the mob of people screaming: Follow the shoe! :D classic
any body else heard of Father Ted? Also pokes fun at Catholics :p
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

My sister told me about it, but I have never actually seen it, sound funny though.
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Post by tarface »

It is :D you have a choice between three quite strange priests: Theres Father Ted the loser who tries constantly to get off the tiny crap island where he lives, theres the naive Father Dougal very sweet but slow, and theres my personal favourite Father Jack :D the filthy mouthed alcohol-mad one who is fond of shouting ''feck!'' ''arse!'' ''gurls!'' and ''knickers!'' He says little else. :p
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Post by TelegramSam »

It's been a while since I've peeked into this thread. I haven't read everything, but I will say this: The bible is pretty clear on the fact that accepting the sacrifice of Jesus Christ as atonement for your sins is the only way to enter heaven.

In regards to hell, well as best as I can understand it, it's something like this: God isn't going to force you to love Him. If you clearly don't want anything to do with Him, ultimately He will put you away from Him, as you wish. That is Hell. That is ALL that Hell is. There's no fire or brimstone or little imps in red tights poking you in the ass with a pitchfork. Hell, by definition, is simply utter and final separation from God. Nothing more, nothing less. And if you don't want God, he won't make you hang around Him. There is "Hell" and there is an all-loving God.
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Post by tarface »

I'd say that you send yourself to hell. Hell is more of a psychological thing to me, a good example of hell is in the French play Huis Clos now that is true pyschological hell as a character says: Hell is other people, who needs weapons of torture, fire and brimstone, when the worst cruelty you can experience comes from other people.
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Post by thylacine »

Quote: "Hell is other people, who needs weapons of torture, fire and brimstone, when the worst cruelty you can experience comes from other people." Sadly, that is so very true.
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Post by shakspear »

Hell, by a Biblical definition, is simply and total absolute separation in every way, shape, and form from God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. That is what Hell is.
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Assume a virtue, if you have it not.
Be great in act, as you have been in thought.

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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

I agree with that, then again, you haven't been in my french or history class.
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Post by thylacine »

Yeah? How about my litigation class? Now that, my friends, is pure hell! :LOL
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Post by shakspear »

As my favorite writer once wrote: (paraphrasing here) "Kill all the lawyers!" Start over.:p
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A wretched soul, bruised with adversity,
We bid be quiet when we hear it cry;
But were we burdened with like weight of pain,
As much or more we should ourselves complain.

Assume a virtue, if you have it not.
Be great in act, as you have been in thought.

William Shakespeare

"Stealing from one person is called plagiarism; stealing from a bunch of people is called research." -Alfred E. Newman.
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Post by CurlyyHairGirl »

Hey? Does AoA Kurt have a religion, or is he all "all is war and love and more" or is it "all is war with blood and gore"?
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Post by Bamf Bunny »

Originally posted by CurlyyHairGirl
Does AoA Kurt have a religion
He's put off by Christianity in particular - he resents meeting in an abandoned church due to something unspecified that happened to him as a child.
Paulus aber sprach: Ich wünschte vor Gott, es fehle nun an viel oder an wenig, daß nicht allein du, sondern alle, die mich heute hören, solche würden, wie ich bin, ausgenommen diese Bande.
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